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Miles hinting at women's football in FM?


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Couldn't find any topic on women's football in FM.

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This is very surprising. I didn't think this would be on the horizon for a long time yet. Question for me is, if its in, how is it being treated? If they've just researched and chucked the players into the existing framework, it'll be utter cack. If they're planning on significantly tweaking the match engine to be more like the actual women's game, it'll be an interesting prospect. 

But cue people going to insane lengths to tell everyone how little they care.

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Its probably because the new release of WE ARE FOOTBALL on June 11th has the women's league in each country as well . Looks like the gloves are off now so we can expect a better standard of game from SI now that there is a new game on the market to offer much needed competition  

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Waste of time and resources in my view, nobody really cares about womens football, just look at the numbers in terms of viewership, sponsorship, etc etc. They should focus on improving the current format because even if they did this, womens game is very diifferent to mens game, you cant just chuck in a female database and voilá, its done.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, alian62 said:

Its probably because the new release of WE ARE FOOTBALL on June 11th has the women's league in each country as well . Looks like the gloves are off now so we can expect a better standard of game from SI now that there is a new game on the market to offer much needed competition  

I don't think SI really give two hoots about this new game from Germany.

This "competition" argument is seriously overrated. In my opinion, SI haven't been less innovative/more complacent since the demise of FIFA Manager, compared to when EA were still in the market.

34 minutes ago, TioPatinhax said:

Waste of time and resources in my view, nobody really cares about womens football, just look at the numbers in terms of viewership, sponsorship, etc etc. They should focus on improving the current format because even if they did this, womens game is very diifferent to mens game, you cant just chuck in a female database and voilá, its done.

This attitude is what REALLY annoys me about some men on the internet who seek to put women's sport down.

These men claim that nobody cares about women's football just because THEY are not interested in women's football. But just because YOU don't care DOES NOT mean that NOBODY cares. This is such a self-centred viewpoint that borders on solipsism.

And it's hypocrisy as well. You claim that nobody cares about women's football, yet you obviously care enough to comment on it. That would be like me - as someone who doesn't really like watching basketball - going over to the NBA thread on OTF and saying, "Nobody cares about basketball."

I don't want to completely rip your post apart, as you do make some valid points. Women's football is very different from the men's game, in that there's less emphasis on physicality and a bit more on technique. If the time did come to introduce women's football, they'd need to tweak the ME in a way that accurately reflects the differences between the women's and men's games.

They'll also need to put a lot of effort into the database, with several major leagues across multiple countries. There's no point just researching all the English leagues and a few national teams and then saying, "That's us done." SI have never done things by halves and they won't treat women's football any differently when the time comes.

Edited by CFuller
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8 minutos atrás, CFuller disse:

But just because YOU don't care DOES NOT mean that NOBODY cares

Perhaps you didnt read everything I wrote, its not just me who doesnt care, look at the numbers, attendances, TV viewership, sponsorship figures, etc etc etc.

And, again to emphasyze that point, IF they really to have a proper crack at the womens game, they just cannot build a new database. The nature of the game itself played by females is just different, and this takes alot of time, energy and resources.

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22 minutes ago, TioPatinhax said:

Perhaps you didnt read everything I wrote, its not just me who doesnt care, look at the numbers, attendances, TV viewership, sponsorship figures, etc etc etc.

And, again to emphasyze that point, IF they really to have a proper crack at the womens game, they just cannot build a new database. The nature of the game itself played by females is just different, and this takes alot of time, energy and resources.

To be fair, you only wrote three sentences of random, baseless nonsense. Not very easy to miss. I guess we should be glad that you aren't in charge of developing the game.

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25 minutes ago, TioPatinhax said:

Perhaps you didnt read everything I wrote, its not just me who doesnt care, look at the numbers, attendances, TV viewership, sponsorship figures, etc etc etc.

And, again to emphasyze that point, IF they really to have a proper crack at the womens game, they just cannot build a new database. The nature of the game itself played by females is just different, and this takes alot of time, energy and resources.

The attendances are not 0 (not including COVID times), TV viewership is not 0, sponsorship is not 0. So you are incorrect. People do care. Not as many as the mens game. Enough to make it a sport and in times where equality is extremely pronounced and welcome, if SI want to implement the woman's game into it, fair enough.

It is opinions like yours that prevent social improvements and keep stereotypes, sexual and racial discrimination alive.

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49 minutos atrás, Grifty disse:

The attendances are not 0 (not including COVID times), TV viewership is not 0, sponsorship is not 0. So you are incorrect. People do care. Not as many as the mens game. Enough to make it a sport and in times where equality is extremely pronounced and welcome, if SI want to implement the woman's game into it, fair enough.

It is opinions like yours that prevent social improvements and keep stereotypes, sexual and racial discrimination alive.

Naturally we have different view on the subject which is OK and I respect it, I understand that you value that side of football more than most people or myself included. However for the reasons i stated, I hope SI doesnt waste resources on virtue signalling ventures such as this one which  could only harm the development of the game itself, the Football Manager we all know and love.

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There was a massive discussion on the forums about a year or two ago and it was basically said it would never be added to the game.

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38 minutes ago, TioPatinhax said:

Naturally we have different view on the subject which is OK and I respect it, I understand that you value that side of football more than most people or myself included. However for the reasons i stated, I hope SI doesnt waste resources on virtue signalling ventures such as this one which  could only harm the development of the game itself, the Football Manager we all know and love.

I do agree with your view on the addition to it of the game, I wouldn't want to it to be a gimmicky feature, and it's not something I would even try let alone play, however I wouldn't want them to not put it in just because it's women's football.

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1 hour ago, Smurf said:

There was a massive discussion on the forums about a year or two ago and it was basically said it would never be added to the game.

Yeah, that's what's surprising.  I can't imagine much would have changed between now and then, but with that tweet from Miles, it'd be a bit of an odd one if it didn't end up being released.

2 hours ago, TioPatinhax said:

Naturally we have different view on the subject which is OK and I respect it, I understand that you value that side of football more than most people or myself included. However for the reasons i stated, I hope SI doesnt waste resources on virtue signalling ventures such as this one which  could only harm the development of the game itself, the Football Manager we all know and love.

You were doing so well for a sentence there. May as well have just started it with "I'm not a sexist, but..." and then talked about all the female friends you've got.

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If they have time to build a match engine (and all the transfer surrounding) that is somewhat replicating the women's football game, they should ask themselfes why they don't use that time to actually improve the flaws of the game from which everybody would benefit from and not only some activists on twitter that Mr. Jacobsen would like to get a pat to the back from. If they just put in women into the current match engine it's total nonsense anyway.

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Agora, Gdansk disse:

If they have time to build a match engine (and all the transfer surrounding) that is somewhat replicating the women's football game, they should ask themselfes why they don't use that time to actually improve the flaws of the game from which everybody would benefit from and not only some activists on twitter that Mr. Jacobsen would like to get a pat to the back from. If they just put in women into the current match engine it's total nonsense anyway.

Spot on.

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Tbf, it was never said it wouldn't be added to the game. It would never be added to the game if it couldn't be attempted properly (ie not just changing male names to female, but building a whole module, particularly in the match engine, databases. which would have to to be different and balanced different). And to do so requires a lot of investment, which they were willing to do if the figures matched it, which might be just be the case

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27 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Yeah, that's what's surprising.  I can't imagine much would have changed between now and then, but with that tweet from Miles, it'd be a bit of an odd one if it didn't end up being released.

You were doing so well for a sentence there. May as well have just started it with "I'm not a sexist, but..." and then talked about all the female friends you've got.

Personally I hope it comes just to annoy the sexist dinosaurs

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Personally I hope it comes just to annoy the sexist dinosaurs

It's not even that. Just from this thread it's pretty obvious that some are hyper sensitive when it comes to perceived sjw and virtue signaling. I wouldn't be surprised if these people are also annoyed that Mr Jacobsen is standing up for the protests on his twitter as well. To think that this feature is only now being considered because of social media likes and appeasement is just laughable. It's like they live in their own little bubble and are oblivious to the fact that the womens game has been growing exponentially in the last few years.

Edited by Sky
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2 minutes ago, Sky said:

It's not even that. Just from this thread it's pretty obvious that some are hyper sensitive when it comes to perceived sjw and virtue signaling. I wouldn't be surprised if these people are also annoyed that Mr Jacobsen is standing up for the protests on his twitter as well. To think that this feature is only now being considered because of social media likes and appeasement is just laughable. It's like they live in their own little bubble and are oblivious to the fact that the womens game has been growing exponentially in the last few years.

The thing is, if they really cared about the concerns of development, they'd know that Miles and SI had previously set some pretty high bars ( and none of this is secret, it has been discussed here quite openly, and they are quite open about what it would take for them to develop it) it would have to reach before they would  consider development, bars that even a couple of years ago you think would be near impossible, but the growth as you say has been absolutely massive. If they are considering it, it's because its hit those bars.

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Posted (edited)

It's a massive task but if they can get it right while also being on top of the bugs in the game (this years edition had a load of bugs upon release) then theres no reason to not want it in the game.  I would assume that they would have done their due diligence and ensured this would be the case if they are adding it.

Essentially if they can add it and it works well then theres no reason to be against it.

Edited by francis#17
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6 hours ago, Gdansk said:

If they have time to build a match engine (and all the transfer surrounding) that is somewhat replicating the women's football game, they should ask themselfes why they don't use that time to actually improve the flaws of the game from which everybody would benefit from and not only some activists on twitter that Mr. Jacobsen would like to get a pat to the back from. If they just put in women into the current match engine it's total nonsense anyway.

This right here.

It doesn't even matter if you're for or against adding women's football.

When weather hardly effects matches, there's little pitch degredation, AI managers can't attack like they should or when they're down, etc, etc.... why spend all that time on adding women's football?

There are far simpler things that need fixed first.

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14 hours ago, Gdansk said:

If they have time to build a match engine (and all the transfer surrounding) that is somewhat replicating the women's football game, they should ask themselfes why they don't use that time to actually improve the flaws of the game from which everybody would benefit from and not only some activists on twitter that Mr. Jacobsen would like to get a pat to the back from. If they just put in women into the current match engine it's total nonsense anyway.

But they're not equivalent.  Think of the Match Engine like a painting you're incrementally building up.  Creating the initial few parts is easy.  You draw some shapes that'll represent the finished piece, and there's your starting point.  Then you start adding detail.  Then when that detail is present, you start drilling down into the finer detail, and the finer detail, until it's a completed piece.  The match engine for the women's game will likely be easier to get up to near the level the current ME will be at, than it will be to make significant improvements to the existing one.  And that's not covering the rest of the things they'd be working on, which would almost certainly be compartmentalised and worked on by completely different people.

But you were doing quite well until the "pat on the backs" bit.

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it would be a nice addition to the game for those who are interested in women’s football. however, personally I would not like it to replace some other feature. 

 

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20 hours ago, CFuller said:

I don't think SI really give two hoots about this new game from Germany.

This "competition" argument is seriously overrated. In my opinion, SI haven't been less innovative/more complacent since the demise of FIFA Manager, compared to when EA were still in the market.

This attitude is what REALLY annoys me about some men on the internet who seek to put women's sport down.

These men claim that nobody cares about women's football just because THEY are not interested in women's football. But just because YOU don't care DOES NOT mean that NOBODY cares. This is such a self-centred viewpoint that borders on solipsism.

And it's hypocrisy as well. You claim that nobody cares about women's football, yet you obviously care enough to comment on it. That would be like me - as someone who doesn't really like watching basketball - going over to the NBA thread on OTF and saying, "Nobody cares about basketball."

I don't want to completely rip your post apart, as you do make some valid points. Women's football is very different from the men's game, in that there's less emphasis on physicality and a bit more on technique. If the time did come to introduce women's football, they'd need to tweak the ME in a way that accurately reflects the differences between the women's and men's games.

They'll also need to put a lot of effort into the database, with several major leagues across multiple countries. There's no point just researching all the English leagues and a few national teams and then saying, "That's us done." SI have never done things by halves and they won't treat women's football any differently when the time comes.

Well they are idiots if they dont care about opposition games . Im sure they will be watching to see the responses and if those responses are positive then this will push them to make a better product . Your entitled to your opinion but in my opinion they have been lacking innovation quite a bit 

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But it would be extremely surprising, after so many years of discussing about how complicate ME refines are, knock-ons, wibble-wobble, side-effects etc. etc., to see they now bump out with a new ME for womens football.

Because in my opinion womens football requires a different ME.

I like the point @majesticeternity made above, about how weather and pitch conditions don't affect AT ALL the gameplay and the physics (plus other aspects of the game), so for me it's a move I truly struggle to understand. I don't usually follow womens football, the few times I did I was bored to death so at the moment I don't think I will ever play it. I'm not sure how commercialy good this idea is, but SI has always been in the front line with social battles so I support this choice, if and when it's going to happen.

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Kinda interested why people think a new ME is required for the women's game?  Women play football, not a different version of football, and the ME represents a football match, so why have a separate ME?  A new graphics engine for sure, but why a whole new ME?

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Not sure I'd play the game mode, but I don't mind it being added. I assume they would hire staff for a specific team developing a women's version, so not really worried about it negatively affecting general FM development.

No matter what people say, women play the game differently than men and the game mode should reflect that. Changing the 3d player skins and pronouns while everything else being copy&paste would be a very disappointing development. 

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6 ore fa, herne79 ha scritto:

Kinda interested why people think a new ME is required for the women's game?  Women play football, not a different version of football, and the ME represents a football match, so why have a separate ME?  A new graphics engine for sure, but why a whole new ME?

I think, if the current system 0-200 is manteined, we should visually see the difference on how a top-woman perform compared to a top-man. I think we should be able to spot reactions, speed and tactical awareness differences between the two genders, as much as technique or other physical attributes. I think we should clearly see the differences in long passes strenght, long shots strenght, jumping, awareness and so on.

I have watched some womens game, as said above, and I haven't enjoyed'em so much to be honest for many reasons, and intensity and technique were the most prominants. I'm not a developer and this is a simple and ignorant point of view from a loyal customer and I doubt they can do all this with the same ME, but if they can, much better.

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6 ore fa, Nacaw ha scritto:

Not sure I'd play the game mode, but I don't mind it being added. I assume they would hire staff for a specific team developing a women's version, so not really worried about it negatively affecting general FM development.

Yeah but... if they can hire new staff for adding womens football, why not hiring new staff to improve other areas of the game? As said above i'd really love to see different ball frictions according to the pitch the game is played onto, like syntetic pitches, muddy, wet, dry, or windy games. This kind of physic has never existed in FM I think? Or hey, even stadium chants.

Again, just my two cents and of course I make it very easy.

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6 hours ago, Federico said:

I think, if the current system 0-200 is manteined, we should visually see the difference on how a top-woman perform compared to a top-man. I think we should be able to spot reactions, speed and tactical awareness differences between the two genders, as much as technique or other physical attributes. I think we should clearly see the differences in long passes strenght, long shots strenght, jumping, awareness and so on.

I have watched some womens game, as said above, and I haven't enjoyed'em so much to be honest for many reasons, and intensity and technique were the most prominants. I'm not a developer and this is a simple and ignorant point of view from a loyal customer and I doubt they can do all this with the same ME, but if they can, much better.

Agreed, however for me the differences you describe there are either the graphics engine or inputs to the match engine (such as player attributes), rather than the ME itself.  To use an extreme and crass example (not meant as an analogy) if we play an elite team vs a lower league team, we'll notice many such differences now.  Obviously more changes would still be needed, but this is why I wonder whether a whole new match engine is actually required.

At it's most basic level (apologies for oversimplification) the ME just takes a whole bunch of inputs and spews out a result.  The graphics engine then gives us a visual interpretation of what the ME has calculated.  So if when implementing the women's game those inputs are changed accordingly and the graphics engine is updated, is there really a need for a totally different ME?

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18 hours ago, Federico said:

But it would be extremely surprising, after so many years of discussing about how complicate ME refines are, knock-ons, wibble-wobble, side-effects etc. etc., to see they now bump out with a new ME for womens football.

Because in my opinion womens football requires a different ME.

I like the point @majesticeternity made above, about how weather and pitch conditions don't affect AT ALL the gameplay and the physics (plus other aspects of the game), so for me it's a move I truly struggle to understand. I don't usually follow womens football, the few times I did I was bored to death so at the moment I don't think I will ever play it. I'm not sure how commercialy good this idea is, but SI has always been in the front line with social battles so I support this choice, if and when it's going to happen.

I'm 100% certain that in FM 2014, weather does affect the game-play and physics of things. Unless that changed in some later game editions, then that is really a regression from SI and a poor one at that.

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9 hours ago, Federico said:

Yeah but... if they can hire new staff for adding womens football, why not hiring new staff to improve other areas of the game? As said above i'd really love to see different ball frictions according to the pitch the game is played onto, like syntetic pitches, muddy, wet, dry, or windy games. This kind of physic has never existed in FM I think? Or hey, even stadium chants.

Again, just my two cents and of course I make it very easy.

Who says they haven't been hiring new staff? There's been loads of adverts for be staff in general tbh

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On 07/06/2021 at 20:42, themadsheep2001 said:

The thing is, if they really cared about the concerns of development, they'd know that Miles and SI had previously set some pretty high bars ( and none of this is secret, it has been discussed here quite openly, and they are quite open about what it would take for them to develop it) it would have to reach before they would  consider development, bars that even a couple of years ago you think would be near impossible, but the growth as you say has been absolutely massive. If they are considering it, it's because its hit those bars.

And let's be honest, the reason it hasn't been added so far is because doing it is difficult, and not because anybody can argue with a straight face that fewer people interested in the Women's World Cup than the third tier of Northern Irish football...

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I've been wanting this for years, just hope it's done right.

Nice to see the old dinosaurs rear their ugly heads. 

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10 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

And let's be honest, the reason it hasn't been added so far is because doing it is difficult, and not because anybody can argue with a straight face that fewer people interested in the Women's World Cup than the third tier of Northern Irish football...

Exactly.  They've been very honest that they are not just going to reskin it, needs to be done right, hence the high bars to developing it in the first place. 

Just find it interesting how many people are suddenly concerned, even though SI have been talking about for years and talking about it in quite conservative tones (ie something they wanted to do but not feasible) 

So if SI actually think it's doable, then it is. 

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3 hours ago, samuelawachie said:

I'm 100% certain that in FM 2014, weather does affect the game-play and physics of things. Unless that changed in some later game editions, then that is really a regression from SI and a poor one at that.

Just to clear up any misinformation, weather and pitch conditions absolutely do affect the match engine. As well as various other things such as jet lag, altitude etc.

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wow, great news. i watch a lot (well, compared to an average football consumer, I guess) of women football for job. in the beginning, the idea was quite awkward but it grew on me very quickly. there are some quirks like hockey substitutes in the US college leagues (doubt they will go to that level). however, the biggest difference - physical part of the game a lot of people seem to be concerned here... well, let me tell you a secret.

To me, the ME already looks far more like women football than men football. the ME is far less aggressive than (men) football in  real so it already represents the women game well in that regard. if anything ME should change more significantly in mens game than in women. not sure about the pace and tempo or technique. What I found out about women game (at least at the top level), it is way more structured, the tactics are far more visible (as if women are following way more the instructions and drills than men) and in general it is (oh) way less chaotic than men game. at least from what I have seen so far. So, great news, I hope SI improves men ME :D 

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8 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

wow, great news. i watch a lot (well, compared to an average football consumer, I guess) of women football for job. in the beginning, the idea was quite awkward but it grew on me very quickly. there are some quirks like hockey substitutes in the US college leagues (doubt they will go to that level). however, the biggest difference - physical part of the game a lot of people seem to be concerned here... well, let me tell you a secret.

To me, the ME already looks far more like women football than men football. the ME is far less aggressive than (men) football in  real so it already represents the women game well in that regard. if anything ME should change more significantly in mens game than in women. not sure about the pace and tempo or technique. What I found out about women game (at least at the top level), it is way more structured, the tactics are far more visible (as if women are following way more the instructions and drills than men) and in general it is (oh) way less chaotic than men game. at least from what I have seen so far. So, great news, I hope SI improves men ME :D 

You're definitely not wrong on this, in terms of the physicality in terms of speed. Women's football can be just as, and is often more aggressive, certainly in the UK anyway, there's a lot more leeway in the refereeing.

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Please people, allow others to have other views and don't take cheap shots at each others. I've removed a few comments, so you who made them know who you are. Take a breather and add something valuable to the topic, otherwise there could be consequences.

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3 ore fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

Who says they haven't been hiring new staff? There's been loads of adverts for be staff in general tbh

I try to explain better my point of view. They hire 20 new employes which 10 of them are diverted to women's database&stuff, when all 20 of them could improve the mechanics or animations of the current game instead.

That said, I'm not running the company and they know best what to do.

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7 ore fa, herne79 ha scritto:

Agreed, however for me the differences you describe there are either the graphics engine or inputs to the match engine (such as player attributes), rather than the ME itself.  To use an extreme and crass example (not meant as an analogy) if we play an elite team vs a lower league team, we'll notice many such differences now.  Obviously more changes would still be needed, but this is why I wonder whether a whole new match engine is actually required.

At it's most basic level (apologies for oversimplification) the ME just takes a whole bunch of inputs and spews out a result.  The graphics engine then gives us a visual interpretation of what the ME has calculated.  So if when implementing the women's game those inputs are changed accordingly and the graphics engine is updated, is there really a need for a totally different ME?

I think, but of course I might be wrong, that womens football is a different "world" so to say. We're used to FM and it's representation since many years, we're more or less accustomed to the way a top player performs and the way a low profile player performs. And this is reflected across the whole men's football "world". A top woman player is surely the best in the women's football "world" and she probably has similar top attributes compared to her male counter-part, but manteining the same ME do I have to expect the same kind of performance as well? From my point of view no.

7 ore fa, samuelawachie ha scritto:

I'm 100% certain that in FM 2014, weather does affect the game-play and physics of things. Unless that changed in some later game editions, then that is really a regression from SI and a poor one at that.

 

3 ore fa, Jack Joyce ha scritto:

Just to clear up any misinformation, weather and pitch conditions absolutely do affect the match engine. As well as various other things such as jet lag, altitude etc.

Weather affects fatigue, recovery and injury proneness consequentely. I was speaking about the physics of the ball particulary. @Jack Joyce Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see no difference with the ball friction/bouncing/speed on different pitches according to specific weather conditions. Playing on a wet pitch won't make the ball speed to increase or the bouncing arc reduced. Playing on a muddy pitch (maybe in some lower leagues) won't make the ball rolling slower until stopping totally in the most dramatic and romantic cases.

 

3 ore fa, MBarbaric ha scritto:

To me, the ME already looks far more like women football than men football. the ME is far less aggressive than (men) football in  real so it already represents the women game well in that regard. if anything ME should change more significantly in mens game than in women. not sure about the pace and tempo or technique. What I found out about women game (at least at the top level), it is way more structured, the tactics are far more visible (as if women are following way more the instructions and drills than men) and in general it is (oh) way less chaotic than men game. at least from what I have seen so far. So, great news, I hope SI improves men ME :D 

I very much agree on what you said. But this is the ME they've done and this is the ME we have. So, what to do is to improve the next ME so to make it more aggressive and realistic and let the current one for women's football. Or make women's football "slightly" different compared to men's football represented now with the current ME. But something has to be done in my opinion.

Just to be clear, I don't want you to see me as sexist, some girls from my hometown/neighborhood/club I currently coach in are currently playing for Juve&National team and we're all proud of them and support them, but as said many times I watched "some" games, and I made my idea about it, I think there are differences and I think when someone wanna try FM women's version would like to see some of these differences. I'm totaly alright with differences, I love differences, it's what make us uniques.

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Posted (edited)

Seems like a great idea to me. FM is probably pretty much at market saturation at this point I would imagine - if you want to play a football game it's either FIFA or FM. To increase sales they need to appeal to a new market and the biggest one left out there is the women's game. Sure they could make changes to the ME, add new leagues or improve the squad building (and I'm sure they'll still do all of that and much more) but that isn't going to move the needle that much in terms of sales year to year. To do that they need to appeal to new people and the women's game is the perfect way to do that

Edited by Britrock
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