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Hi guys.

I've got two tactics here. I'm coming up half way through my 6th season and since just over half way through my 5th season the season before I've been struggling somewhat for results. I Use 4231 and dominate matches but seem concede silly goals or just can't score. So I've recently created a new tactic but I do prefer my 4231 with an AMC. Was wondering if anyone could see what I'm doing wrong?

IK about 5 games in with my new tactic but I feel I'm actually worse off with possession ect.

IMG_20210601_233909.jpg

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I think removing Prevent goalkeeper distribution can help you to avoid useless pressing when the opponent is playing out defense. You have only one striker so your lone striker probably will run versus 3 opponents with no chance.

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15 minutes ago, daarser said:

I think removing Prevent goalkeeper distribution can help you to avoid useless pressing when the opponent is playing out defense. You have only one striker so your lone striker probably will run versus 3 opponents with no chance.

If I took my AMC and put him up top and had two stickers would that not leave me a bit empty In midfield? 

 

I'll try removing prevent goalkeeper distribution.

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In the 1st tactic (4231), the most obvious issues are:

- poor defensive protection on the right flank/side due to a risky role combination (WBsu + mezzala + attacking IW)

- aggressive defending (more urgent press + prevent GKD) coupled with lower than optimal compactness (DL-LOE distance)

- play for set pieces makes no sense in a tactical style like yours

In the other tactic (4321):

- overly conservative left flank = insufficient support to the AML/IW due to the fullback role

- contradiction between possession-friendly in-possession TIs and a not-so-possession-friendly setup of roles and duties

- again - just like in the 1st tactic - aggressive defending (more urgent press + prevent GKD) coupled with lower than optimal compactness (DL-LOE distance)

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34 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

In the 1st tactic (4231), the most obvious issues are:

- poor defensive protection on the right flank/side due to a risky role combination (WBsu + mezzala + attacking IW)

- aggressive defending (more urgent press + prevent GKD) coupled with lower than optimal compactness (DL-LOE distance)

- play for set pieces makes no sense in a tactical style like yours

In the other tactic (4321):

- overly conservative left flank = insufficient support to the AML/IW due to the fullback role

- contradiction between possession-friendly in-possession TIs and a not-so-possession-friendly setup of roles and duties

- again - just like in the 1st tactic - aggressive defending (more urgent press + prevent GKD) coupled with lower than optimal compactness (DL-LOE distance)

Thanks for your reply.  The mezzala position is actually normally the same instruction as the other cm but I'll keep that in mind. 

I'll remove playing for set pieces and urgent pressing and preventing goal keeper short passes.

 

What does loe stand for?

 

Thanks for your input though!

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The first one suffers from everyone congregating at the AP position. Inside wingers cutting in, DLF dropping into AMC position and even the Mez will be crowding that area. 

Maybe use a winger instead of an IW and make the Mez more of a holding role. Should give your AP more space. 

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40 minutes ago, jozza800 said:

 

Thankyou will give that ago. I've only recently started giving players their most suitable role as individuals ago rather than how I wanted them to see if that approved but I can see now from your comment how that's having a negative fluidity.

Definitely food for thought

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2 hours ago, ste057 said:

The mezzala position is actually normally the same instruction as the other cm but I'll keep that in mind

Mezzala as a role is attack-minded, that's why it's risky to use it in a 4231, especially together with other attack-minded roles such as WB on support and IW/IF on attack. I don't know what "same instruction as the other CM" you are referring to?

 

3 hours ago, ste057 said:

What does loe stand for?

Line of engagement. 

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1 hour ago, ste057 said:

16226623629068513839452389565562.jpg

 

1 hour ago, ste057 said:

Listening to advice from you guys this is my initial set up

What advice? Who advised you to play with a lower LOE and less urgent pressing? Or to use 2 wingers (role) - and both on the attack duty at that - while at the same time trying to play possession football (judging from your in-possession instructions)?

These are obvious tactical contradictions. But anyway, test the tactic and see if/how it works :thup:

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Mezzala as a role is attack-minded, that's why it's risky to use it in a 4231, especially together with other attack-minded roles such as WB on support and IW/IF on attack. I don't know what "same instruction as the other CM" you are referring to?

 

Line of engagement. 

Same instruction as the other cm. I dont usually use mezzala normally two deep lying play maker. Normally one supporting one defensive.

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

What advice? Who advised you to play with a lower LOE and less urgent pressing? Or to use 2 wingers (role) - and both on the attack duty at that - while at the same time trying to play possession football (judging from your in-possession instructions)?

These are obvious tactical contradictions. But anyway, test the tactic and see if/how it works :thup:

I thought you guys said my pressing was too aggressive so I went the other way. And said my LOE was too compact. I realise now I've kept it tight and should be slightly more spaced?

The wingers were down to another commenter saying my attacking left&right miss are cutting in so I tried to keep them with more width. 

 

I played 6 games with 3 wins and 3 draws. Including a nice 2-0 victory over Man city though.

 

What would you recommend with my wingers?

 

Thanks for your inputs

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, ste057 said:

Would this be better?

 

16226746721687766015688580150275.jpg

I don't like it.

You don't play Offside Trap without a Higher Defesive line. But first you have to make sure that your CBs are fast enough to be able to do that.

There is still contradiction between your roles (wingers and FB (a)) and instructions (possession-heavy).

Also two DLPs in central midfield are unnecessary and by no means going to help you with your central penetration.

 

Edited by crusadertsar
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12 hours ago, ste057 said:

I thought you guys said my pressing was too aggressive so I went the other way

It was too aggressive in the context of low defensive compactness, which can be particularly risky in a top-heavy formation with no DM such as 4231 (or 424 for that matter). But none said that you need to both improve compactness and reduce pressing at the same time, let alone going from more urgent to less urgent. Low LOE in combination with low pressing urgency can make you too passive in defense and hence put your players under more pressure than they can possibly handle. Finding the right balance is key when creating a tactic, in both (attacking and defensive) phases of play. 

 

12 hours ago, ste057 said:

I played 6 games with 3 wins and 3 draws. Including a nice 2-0 victory over Man city though

If so, then the tactic obviously works in spite of its weaknesses (at least for now). Therefore, do not make changes (unless it suddenly stops working). 

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1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

You don't play offside Trap without a Higher Defesive line. But first you have to make sure that your CBs are fast enough to be able to do that.

There is still contradiction between your roles (wingers and FB (a)) and instructions (possession-heavy).

 

So maybe a higher line and remove play offside trap perhaps?

How should I go about balancing my fullbacks/wingers?  I though full backs being automatic would follow my mentality?

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

It was too aggressive in the context of low defensive compactness, which can be particularly risky in a top-heavy formation with no DM such as 4231 (or 424 for that matter). But none said that you need to both improve compactness and reduce pressing at the same time, let alone going from more urgent to less urgent. Low LOE in combination with low pressing urgency can make you too passive in defense and hence put your players under more pressure than they can possibly handle. Finding the right balance is key when creating a tactic, in both (attacking and defensive) phases of play.

I always thought any sort of higher defensive line would always leave me open at the back that's why I've always had standard or lower. 

Thanks for your input. Gives me some direction. 

How would be best to get to keep my full backs from not being over attacking yet working in balance with my wingers?

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49 minutes ago, ste057 said:

How would be best to get to keep my full backs from not being over attacking yet working in balance with my wingers?

Like everything else, it must be viewed in the context of the entire tactic. There are too many factors in play, so offering a definite answer is impossible. You first need to decide what style of football you want to play (but also make sure you have the right type of players for such style). Once you figure that out, we can discuss specific options and variants. 

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52 minutes ago, ste057 said:

I always thought any sort of higher defensive line would always leave me open at the back that's why I've always had standard or lower

I was talking about the LOE (line of engagement), not the defensive line.

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53 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Like everything else, it must be viewed in the context of the entire tactic. There are too many factors in play, so offering a definite answer is impossible. You first need to decide what style of football you want to play (but also make sure you have the right type of players for such style). Once you figure that out, we can discuss specific options and variants. 

I think this is something I've never really focused on, I've always just bought a player and never really looked at there style.

17 years of playing these games and didn't realise I have so much more to learn lol.

 

53 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I was talking about the LOE (line of engagement), not the defensive line.

It was the other commenter that mentioned my LOE and looking for offside.

 

I'm guessing screenshots of my players will be abit too much for you @Experienced Defender?

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1 hour ago, ste057 said:

So maybe a higher line and remove play offside trap perhaps?

How should I go about balancing my fullbacks/wingers?  I though full backs being automatic would follow my mentality?

You didn't understand my point. Offside Trap usually goes together with high line. So if you want to play with a high defensive line then you should use offside trap. But you have to make sure that both of your CBs have the same duties in order to stay in line. Also if you want to use an offside trap then you need to implement high defensive line. It makes no sense to have offiside trap without higher defensive line.

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10 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

You didn't understand my point. Offside Trap usually goes together with high line. So if you want to play with a high defensive line then you should use offside trap. But you have to make sure that both of your CBs have the same duties in order to stay in line. Also if you want to use an offside trap then you need to implement high defensive line. It makes no sense to have offiside trap without higher defensive line.

Ah ok. So I can keep using offside trap but more my defensive line up to higher?  I've had a look and my 4 main defenders have 14-16 pace. So against most teams I would imagine this wouldnt be too much of a problem?

My left and full back have 17+ pace

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24 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Screenshots would be welcome, so feel free to post them :thup:

Although I don't always have the time to go into much detail, I'll take a look anyway

Thankyou. Just screen shots of wingers/full backs?

Mainly looking for tips and hints and appreciate any info that goes my way. Always thought I had a good grip on the game. Maybe more luck than not though lol

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40 minutes ago, ste057 said:

Just screen shots of wingers/full backs?

Of all first-team players, of course (or at least the starting eleven). I cannot assess what style of football would optimally suit your team by looking at wingers and fullbacks only. 

 

40 minutes ago, ste057 said:

Always thought I had a good grip on the game. Maybe more luck than not though

If you are getting good results, then there is no need to make any changes (no matter what I or anyone else think about your tactic). Simply play and enjoy the game.

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30 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

If you are getting good results, then there is no need to make any changes (no matter what I or anyone else think about your tactic). Simply play and enjoy the game.

I'm playing and enjoying the game as I always have done but I've never really struggled before, I'm normally a one team save and see how far I can take them and build from them but never really struggled until recently on this current FM. And feel what I usually do with tactics clearly from this thread I've actually causing myself/team more harm than good lol

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ste057 said:

My coaches recommended this.

I wasn't sure if it's to instruction heavy

16227480860879129870522533083511.jpg

Another bit of advice for you. Never go with AI coach recommendations for anything. Just as you should never use Preset tactics.

If you do that then you usually end up with the tactic like the one you showed.

If those instructions are what AI suggested to you then they make no sense to me. There are a lot of contradictions too.

In Possession they are completely overkill to the point where you will be getting possession just for the sake of possesion. Also your build-up will probably be so slow as to have no chance penetrating most park the bus sides. Which you will probably face a lot given your club's reputation.

Then secondly, in your out of possesion instructions there is a completely different extreme. There your method of defending is completely out of sync with your other instructions. Here your instructions are aggressive to the max. And needlessly so.

So you need to make up your mind Do you want to play super patient tiki-taka or uber-aggressive balls to the wall geggenpress?

Personally, I dont like either approach and would aim for something In the middle. In other words a more balanced attack-oriented style.

 

Edited by crusadertsar
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48 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Another bit of advice for you. Never go with AI coach recommendations for anything. Just as you should never use Preset tactics

This! :thup: :applause:

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2 hours ago, ste057 said:

@Experienced Defender that's what I would say my main starting 11 is. Canova the left back is just about to join my squad

You have very fast forward players and creative midfielders with good passing ability. Your fullbacks possess great speed and should be able to provide proper attacking support for their wing partners. CBs are very good in all important attributes, so you can comfortably play with a higher D-line.

Overall, with players like yours, I would rather go with a style based on fast transitions to utilize the pace of your forwards than anything possession-minded. 

This would be my basic starting tactic based on the info you provided via screenshots:

AF(PFat)

IFsu         APat         IWsu

DLPsu   CMde

WBsu   CDde  CDde  FBat

SKde

Mentality - Positive

In possession - run at defence & low crosses

In transition - counter & distribute quickly to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - higher D-line & normal LOE + split block with the front 4 players

Everything else would be just small situational in-match tweaks based on observations during a specific match (because the tactic is not plug'n'play by any means).

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Cheers guys. I didnt see either your messages till after I had played 5 games with the tactics recommend by my staff. But I did win 5/5 games I played with the tactics including against Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea (a bit of a crazy January).

 

But I will 100% try out your tactics as I say the tactics they gave me all seem bit all over the place. 

One question is what do you mean by split block with the front 4 players?

I'll let you know how I get on 👍

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2 minutes ago, ste057 said:

One question is what do you mean by split block with the front 4 players?

Telling the up front players to press more via PI.

Usually a high pressing intensity in your own half when playing with a low(er) block is a bad idea, as space will open up behind your pressing defenders. However using a split block can be quite effective, as it still allows your team to apply preassure close to the midline, but doesnt force your actual defenders and defensive midfielders to leave their position and create space for the other team.

So if you want to defend aggressively within your own half, split block is the way to go.

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24 minutes ago, ste057 said:

But I did win 5/5 games I played with the tactics including against Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea

Okay, so the tactic works and therefore do not change it.

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  • 1 month later...

@Experienced DefenderI thought Id update you. I know it's been a lil while. But to let you know, the I kept the tactics that were working with my staff suggestion, we ended up finishing the season 4th place, results were mixed but did get some decent results. But as the season came to an end results were abit all over the place. So for the start of preseason I went with your suggested tactics as base guide. And have had good results. I do tweak in-game and some position duties before hand depending on the player coming in. But so far, great results

 

IMG_20210716_132941.jpg

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