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The Jack Grealish (and occasionally England) Thread: It's coming home attempt 5782570


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4 minutes ago, Heartwork said:

It's not the team I hate it's the fans and honestly some of the **** that's happened with fans in this tournament vindicates my cynicism.

I didn't realise the fans were actually the ones that played football.

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1 minute ago, VP. said:

Southgate openly saying he picked the takers actually beggars belief, must have been the only person in the country (including Saka himself) that thought he would score.

He's saying it to take the heat off of the players that didn't take one

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I’ve never really been an England fan, due to hating a lot of the squad. But this tournament I really got in to it, I like every single one of the players and it’s been a joy.

They came second but a huge achievement still. Proud of them all.

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England have a young team. They'll go close again. I said in the other England thread in the football forum, and various others actually, that 2020-2030 is a really good period for England to win a trophy. I do actually think they'll win one. No idea what one, but they've got such a good young team with depth everywhere. Even if some of these players are **** in 18 months, there's so many others who can take their spot that it won't matter

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6 minutes ago, VP. said:

Southgate openly saying he picked the takers actually beggars belief, must have been the only person in the country (including Saka himself) that thought he would score.

He's protecting the players. He's been the scapegoat before (remember the hell people put him through after Euro 96) so he knows what it's like to be a player who missed a pen and has the vultures after them the next day.

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Just now, Astafjevs said:

England have a young team. They'll go close again. I said in the other England thread in the football forum, and various others actually, that 2020-2030 is a really good period for England to win a trophy. I do actually think they'll win one. No idea what one, but they've got such a good young team with depth everywhere. Even if some of these players are **** in 18 months, there's so many others who can take their spot that it won't matter

I worry about the goalkeeper situation, I think tonight showed the value of an elite keeper.

I also worry about the midfield with England. I am not a fan of Phillips at all, I don't get why Southgate always subs off Rice over him. Aside from Bellingham, I'm not sure we have many English midfielders coming through

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3 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

I worry about the goalkeeper situation, I think tonight showed the value of an elite keeper.

I also worry about the midfield with England. I am not a fan of Phillips at all, I don't get why Southgate always subs off Rice over him. Aside from Bellingham, I'm not sure we have many English midfielders coming through

Pickford was excellent tonight?

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2 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

I worry about the goalkeeper situation, I think tonight showed the value of an elite keeper.

I also worry about the midfield with England. I am not a fan of Phillips at all, I don't get why Southgate always subs off Rice over him. Aside from Bellingham, I'm not sure we have many English midfielders coming through

Pickford still has a few years in him yet, he may not be a world class keeper but he didn't make any costly mistakes this tournament and saved 2 penalties (which would normally be enough to win it). You can't fault him for what happened and I would still be happy with him in goal next year (unless Henderson really comes on at Man Utd)

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2 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

I worry about the goalkeeper situation, I think tonight showed the value of an elite keeper.

I also worry about the midfield with England. I am not a fan of Phillips at all, I don't get why Southgate always subs off Rice over him. Aside from Bellingham, I'm not sure we have many English midfielders coming through

Foden has central midfielder written all over him. It just needs someone - either Guardiola or Southgate - to actually play him there regularly. Mount, Bellingham. Rice (if he performs like he did tonight). That's four already. Maybe Grealish can play there but I'm less certain of that.

Not much you can do with the goalkeeper. Donnarumma is going to be one of the best goalkeepers in the world, if he's not already. But Pickford saved two penalties in that shootout. If you said beforehand that your goalkeeper would save two pens in a shootout, you'd expect to win most times. You're not going to come up against a Donnarumma-level goalkeeper in every knockout match.

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2 minutes ago, Heartwork said:

He's protecting the players. He's been the scapegoat before (remember the hell people put him through after Euro 96) so he knows what it's like to be a player who missed a pen and has the vultures after them the next day.

I guess so, I just cannot understand why anyone would let him take it. Fair play to him for stepping up but it was never gonna end well.

 

2 minutes ago, Pukey said:

No idea how you can watch England this tournament and not be a fan of Phillips. He's had a very good tournament. 

I don't really see what he offers either, though we're not exactly spoilt for choice.

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4 minutes ago, Pukey said:

No idea how you can watch England this tournament and not be a fan of Phillips. He's had a very good tournament. 

I think he's good at what he does but he's too limited, especially if you want to dominate possession. I thought him and Henderson were really poor, especially in the build up. The defence had no passing options which was why Maguire was hoofing it out a lot. Phillips wasn't showing for the ball.

2 minutes ago, bolton1987 said:

Pickford was excellent tonight?

 

2 minutes ago, Heartwork said:

Pickford still has a few years in him yet, he may not be a world class keeper but he didn't make any costly mistakes this tournament and saved 2 penalties (which would normally be enough to win it). You can't fault him for what happened and I would still be happy with him in goal next year (unless Henderson really comes on at Man Utd)

Pickford has been fine but he's not elite. Donnaruma doesn't concede the free kick v Denmark and I think he does better on Italy's goal today. I thought Pickford looked weak on that

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6 minutes ago, Pukey said:

No idea how you can watch England this tournament and not be a fan of Phillips. He's had a very good tournament. 

Can see him being linked with some big clubs this summer.

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2 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

Foden has central midfielder written all over him. It just needs someone - either Guardiola or Southgate - to actually play him there regularly. Mount, Bellingham. Rice (if he performs like he did tonight). That's four already. Maybe Grealish can play there but I'm less certain of that.

Not much you can do with the goalkeeper. Donnarumma is going to be one of the best goalkeepers in the world, if he's not already. But Pickford saved two penalties in that shootout. If you said beforehand that your goalkeeper would save two pens in a shootout, you'd expect to win most times. You're not going to come up against a Donnarumma-level goalkeeper in every knockout match.

Yeah I thought Rice was good again tonight. Thought the sub was weird from Southgate.

My issue wasn't the penalty shootout, it was the match. 

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His ball recovery is exceptional, he's constantly pressing the opponents and cutting off passing lanes to prevent easy passes, his passing is excellent. He's used in a different way to his role at Leeds where he's better, but I've naturally followed his performances incredibly closely and I can promise he's been brilliant. 

He's not gonna dribble round a million players or anything but the midfielder is absolutely weaker without him in it at this moment in time. 

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2 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

I think he's good at what he does but he's too limited, especially if you want to dominate possession. I thought him and Henderson were really poor, especially in the build up. The defence had no passing options which was why Maguire was hoofing it out a lot. Phillips wasn't showing for the ball.

 

Pickford has been fine but he's not elite. Donnaruma doesn't concede the free kick v Denmark and I think he does better on Italy's goal today. I thought Pickford looked weak on that

At least Pickford ruined Jorginho's 100% penalty record.

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3 minutes ago, Pukey said:

His ball recovery is exceptional, he's constantly pressing the opponents and cutting off passing lanes to prevent easy passes, his passing is excellent. He's used in a different way to his role at Leeds where he's better, but I've naturally followed his performances incredibly closely and I can promise he's been brilliant. 

He's not gonna dribble round a million players or anything but the midfielder is absolutely weaker without him in it at this moment in time. 

I'm not denying that he's a good player, I've seen him play well for Leeds a lot.

However I'm not sure he's a great fit for this England side, especially in a midfield 2

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Just now, skybluedave said:

Need to build around Foden now.

If WC comes and he's still in and out of side I'll be annoyed

I want to see Saka/Sancho alongside Foden with Sterling left.

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The problem with Rice and Phillips is that when England decide they're going to sit back and let other teams play, they're not capable of getting on the ball and changing the game. They're good at stopping the other team, and by and large that's what they did because it's not like we had loads of chances. But they're also part of the reason England had one shot on target in 117 minutes. Henderson as well. 

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2 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

The problem with Rice and Phillips is that when England decide they're going to sit back and let other teams play, they're not capable of getting on the ball and changing the game. They're good at stopping the other team, and by and large that's what they did because it's not like we had loads of chances. But they're also part of the reason England had one shot on target in 117 minutes. Henderson as well. 

That's very true. Ideally, you'd want one of them playing, with someone else who'd be there to get on the ball and dictate things. They're excellent at what they do defensively though. Hopefully Bellingham develops into the kind of midfielder we need.

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1 minute ago, Astafjevs said:

The problem with Rice and Phillips is that when England decide they're going to sit back and let other teams play, they're not capable of getting on the ball and changing the game. They're good at stopping the other team, and by and large that's what they did because it's not like we had loads of chances. But they're also part of the reason England had one shot on target in 117 minutes. Henderson as well. 

Yeah I'd agree with that.

Didn't see any merit in Rice before tonight, but he was very, very good. In the first half at least. 

It's all one way with that duo though. Great protectors/disruptors but they're incapable of forcing the opposition onto the back foot. I think going forward England should be looking at 1 of them plus Bellingham.

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Rice and Phillips had decent enough tournaments, but they are both good players, not elite level international players. We need someone who can truly dictate the tempo, is press resistant and can help manage the game through difficult moments, or someone with the mobility to disrupt the opposition and stop them building waves of pressure. As it was, when Italy pushed up second half and got their midfield on the ball more, we couldn't really get near them.

Edited by martynlcfc
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5 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

The problem with Rice and Phillips is that when England decide they're going to sit back and let other teams play, they're not capable of getting on the ball and changing the game. They're good at stopping the other team, and by and large that's what they did because it's not like we had loads of chances. But they're also part of the reason England had one shot on target in 117 minutes. Henderson as well. 

To be fair, Rice was driving us forward and looked the most likely to make something happen.

As soon as Henderson came on he looked half fit and laboured and killed any counter-attackimg intent we had through the middle.

Genuinely can't believe there were some fans (let's face it, all Liverpool fans) who genuinely wanted Henderson to start tonight. It's a very "Sven" attitude to just through the "name" in when he's clearly not fully fit.

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Think of it this way:

Compare this squad with how it was this time last year. A lot of new faces, a few returning faces who were nowhere near the England squad last year but massively improved over the season. There's nothing to say we can't have even more bright young talents available next year. Some we may not know yet who are about to have their breakthrough seasons, some we do know who have still got bags of unrealised potential and another year of growing to do. Think how much better Foden, Bellingham and Sancho could be in 18 months' time. We can still have high hopes for a good run in 2022 and as long as Southgate also improves his flaws, there's cause for optimism.

Edited by Heartwork
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It's a two way player England miss. Or multiple two way players. Verratti is so good because he can contribute offensively and defensively. So can Barella but I don't tihnk he had a good tournament. Rice and Phillips only contribute to a good enough standard in one phase.

Mount can be a good two way player. So can Foden with a bit more game time there. Bellingham already looks like he is one and just needs more minutes at club level in the biggest games.

Edited by Astafjevs
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Just now, MIR17 said:

 

To be fair, Rice was driving us forward and looked the most likely to make something happen.

As soon as Henderson came on he looked half fit and laboured and killed any counter-attackimg intent we had through the middle.

Genuinely can't believe there were some fans (let's face it, all Liverpool fans) who genuinely wanted Henderson to start tonight. It's a very "Sven" attitude to just through the "name" in when he's clearly not fully fit.

Very easy to say that with hindsight (and I personally said the midfield shouldn't be changed for the final), but Rice wasn't making himself untouchable in his performances and Henderson played well off the bench.

He was very poor when he came on tonight though.

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2 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

It's a two way player England miss. Or multiple two way players. Verratti is so good because he can contribute offensively and defensively. So can Barella but I don't tihnk he had a good tournament. Rice and Phillips only contribute to a good enough standard in one phase.

Mount can be a good two way player. So can Foden with a bit more game time there. Bellingham already looks like he is one and just needs more minutes at club level in the biggest games.

It will be interesting to see what Arsenal do with Saka as I think he could end up in midfield, same with Smith Rowe

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1 minute ago, Astafjevs said:

It's a two way player England miss. Or more than two way player. Verratti is so good because he can contribute offensively and defensively. So can Barella but I don't tihnk he had a good tournament. Rice and Phillips only contribute to a good enough standard in one phase.

Mount can be a good two way player. So can Foden with a bit more game time there. Bellingham already looks like he is one and just needs more minutes at club level in the biggest games.

If I was to be controversial I'd say that if he was English, Pedri would have barely played this tournament. Bellingham was good enough to start already in my opinion.

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41 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

He's saying it to take the heat off of the players that didn't take one

Yeah. Also, whilst I wouldn't have picked Saka, absolute first choice penalty takers Jorginho and Rashford took awful penalties and Maguire, who I had zero confidence in, took it superbly. Picking penalty takers on paper isn't necessarily more reliable than picking them based on knowing them personally and watching in training.

 

27 minutes ago, Heartwork said:

Can see him being linked with some big clubs this summer.

Would definitely take him at United (won't happen)

 

26 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

Yeah I thought Rice was good again tonight. Thought the sub was weird from Southgate.

Ironically I think it was his best performance by miles. But also showed his final third limitations. If we were still ahead on 70 mins, Phillips or even Mount would have been subbed, but we needed someone theoretically more direct and attacking

Edited by enigmatic
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10 minutes ago, pearcey_90 said:

Oliver Skipp gets given a chance at Spurs this season coming, he’ll be in that England squad. Few times I saw him at Norwich he looked class and just needs that next step now.

Yeah, even with the depth we have at our disposal now, we could yet have more names in the frame this season. If Skipp gets and takes his chance at Spurs he'll be in the frame. Greenwood has clearly been taking lessons from Cavani and has another few levels in him, could be frightening if things go right. Depending on what United do with de Gea, Henderson could get his chance at the top this season in goal. Hudson-Odoi is someone we know can do a job and maybe Tuchel can get the best out of him. Liverpool have a host of youngsters with bags of potential and Klopp isn't afraid to use them, e.g. Curtis Jones.

Noni Madueke at PSV is also attracting a lot of attention, potentially being the next England talent to join the Dortmund machine.

Edited by Heartwork
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6 minutes ago, martynlcfc said:

Rice and Phillips had decent enough tournaments, but they are both good players, not elite level international players. We need someone who can truly dictate the tempo, is press resistant and can help manage the game through difficult moments, or someone with the mobility to disrupt the opposition and stop them building waves of pressure. As it was, when Italy pushed up second half and got their midfield on the ball more, we couldn't really get near them.

I think they're elite at what they do, it's just having the two of them on limits us going forward. Now, this actually worked pretty well for a lot of the tournament, and as Asta said it's not like Italy were having bucket loads of chances, but there's always a risk when the team keeps dropping deeper and deeper of conceding a goal at some point.

Not going to criticise Southgate for playing them, they did the job he was asking of them and we came within penalties of winning the thing, but hopefully moving forward we can see more of Bellingham playing CM as if he develops into the player he looks like he will, then that will help immensely. 

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Rice was excellent tonight imo. Should never have been taken off.  But I thought Phillips was great after he went off. For me the change at that time (And maybe 5 mins earlier) was Mount for Henderson to try and help us gain a foothold In the middle of the park.

I have absolutely zero complaints about us over the tournament looking back on it. We got to the final which is a hell of a lot more than I expected and we weren't far off winning it.

Bring on Qatar.

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33 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

Foden has central midfielder written all over him. It just needs someone - either Guardiola or Southgate - to actually play him there regularly. Mount, Bellingham. Rice (if he performs like he did tonight). That's four already. Maybe Grealish can play there but I'm less certain of that.

Not much you can do with the goalkeeper. Donnarumma is going to be one of the best goalkeepers in the world, if he's not already. But Pickford saved two penalties in that shootout. If you said beforehand that your goalkeeper would save two pens in a shootout, you'd expect to win most times. You're not going to come up against a Donnarumma-level goalkeeper in every knockout match.

Something maybe England need to realise,  you can have a 5ft7 in cm

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9 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

It's a two way player England miss. Or multiple two way players. Verratti is so good because he can contribute offensively and defensively. So can Barella but I don't tihnk he had a good tournament. Rice and Phillips only contribute to a good enough standard in one phase.

Mount can be a good two way player. So can Foden with a bit more game time there. Bellingham already looks like he is one and just needs more minutes at club level in the biggest games.

Phillips is far more of an all rounder than the brilliant, but very attacking Foden.

It'd be nice to have a holding midfielder that was genuinely great in the final third but that wasn't the problem. Ultimately the starting lineup was good enough offensively to completely bypass Italy in attack in the first half, but then we didn't have any realistic way of reinforcing things when Italy started using the ball better and we looked less composed in the second

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England played this way for most of the tournament. And in 2018 I think. You have to accept the risk that if you're going to be defence first, and play to keep things tight rather than try and get on the front foot for most of the game, then you're going to lose some tight games once in a while. Germany game went in their favour because they had more quality and better players and created goalscoring chances in the few moments they had. Ditto Denmark. Colombia in 2018 as well where they allowed Colombia back into it and then came through a tight game on pens.

England didn't lose this - it will go down as a draw - but their quality wasn't as apparent and they weren't able to create chances against good Italian defenders, and so gave Italy the opportunity to win on pens.

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30 minutes ago, VP. said:
 

 

Not sure if the bloke in the other thread got banned for posting this, but might be worth removing as im sure it was removed in that thread and the poster got hammered for it.

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14 minutes ago, Smallen said:

Sterling, Foden and Sancho behind Kane from now until the WC please :thup:

What if Madueke comes good at Dortmund (if he gets the move there)? Set to be their Sancho replacement.

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3 minutes ago, Deltaroad said:

For me Rice was the MOTM.

For the WC it should be 

 

Sancho  ----- Grealish ----- Sterling

----------------- ---Kane------------------

 

I would love to see that.

Foden as the number 8, Bellingham as the B2B, Phillips and Rice fighting it out for the DM role.

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1 minute ago, Baptista_8 said:

I would love to see that.

Foden as the number 8, Bellingham as the B2B, Phillips and Rice fighting it out for the DM role.

12 players?

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39 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

England played this way for most of the tournament. And in 2018 I think. You have to accept the risk that if you're going to be defence first, and play to keep things tight rather than try and get on the front foot for most of the game, then you're going to lose some tight games once in a while. Germany game went in their favour because they had more quality and better players and created goalscoring chances in the few moments they had. Ditto Denmark. Colombia in 2018 as well where they allowed Colombia back into it and then came through a tight game on pens.

England didn't lose this - it will go down as a draw - but their quality wasn't as apparent and they weren't able to create chances against good Italian defenders, and so gave Italy the opportunity to win on pens.

I think that's fair enough (tbh I don't think we even get the "draw" for that).

Ironically it's  an area we're not dissimilar to Italy either historically or tonight though: I think if Italy hadn't won the shootout you would have taken some flak for playing too safe after equalising with England looking quite vulnerable (yes, we changed shape, but in theory that should have meant more chances for you after the equaliser rather than fewer)

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47 minutes ago, The Amazing Dale Watkins said:

To think you had like five hours to come up with a witty retort and that's what you came up with...

Take that as a no ..

;)

Edited by Gandy
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