The Jack Grealish (and occasionally England) Thread: It's coming home attempt 5782570

[Pukey]

The only problem with xG or xA is when people use them with absolutely zero context. They're a useful stat just like a million other stats are useful. Don't know why people are so against them.

[Barnzy]

4 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

Honestly I've gone from wanting Grealish in the side to hoping he doesn't get on the pitch this tournament 

If that was an Italian performance, we'd be talking about how they controlled the game, didn't allow Croatia a stiff and it being a masterful tournament game of football, but not in here, we can't even enjoy winning an opening game without it being full of moaning ****ers 

I didn't agree with the starting XI, but those who played did really well today 

Isn’t this what being on these forums is all about? Not being able to enjoy anything because we pick holes to death on every little thing, you only have to look at some of the console and tv threads 😂

[Barry Cartman]

1 minute ago, Barnzy said:

Isn’t this what being on these forums is all about? Not being able to enjoy anything because we pick holes to death on every little thing, you only have to look at some of the console and tv threads 😂

Sure, but the highlights in this thread include Trippier at left back didn't work, even though we controlled the game and he didn't put a foot wrong, and how we've somehow missed out not playing Grealish when we've just put in a really good performance 

[skybluedave]

Lets just enjoy the win. 

Look Jacks happy. Be like Jack

[Pukey]

I wonder what the plan will be for the next game. Kane was probably the worst performer but there's zero chance he's getting dropped. Will Grealish play, or will he stick with Sterling? You can make an argument either way. Trippier did absolutely fine at LB but will he choose Shaw/Chilwell to offer more natural width? I think he'll probably stick with same 11 as nothing today will make him think anything drastically needs changing, but we'll see.

[Baptista_8]

4 minutes ago, Pukey said:

I wonder what the plan will be for the next game. Kane was probably the worst performer but there's zero chance he's getting dropped. Will Grealish play, or will he stick with Sterling? You can make an argument either way. Trippier did absolutely fine at LB but will he choose Shaw/Chilwell to offer more natural width? I think he'll probably stick with same 11 as nothing today will make him think anything drastically needs changing, but we'll see.

If Shaw or Chilwell come in I would like to see Trippier over Walker at RB.

[mark1985]

[themadsheep2001]

5 minutes ago, Pukey said:

I wonder what the plan will be for the next game. Kane was probably the worst performer but there's zero chance he's getting dropped. Will Grealish play, or will he stick with Sterling? You can make an argument either way. Trippier did absolutely fine at LB but will he choose Shaw/Chilwell to offer more natural width? I think he'll probably stick with same 11 as nothing today will make him think anything drastically needs changing, but we'll see.

I'd rotate slightly due to trying to give some of our other key players a feel and for overall fitness, but not overly so. Scotland's left flank is their most dangerous, I wonder if Trippier will go to the right and Shaw/Chilwell come in on the left. 

If Kane isn't feeling his ribs I'd start DCL and I'd probably swap Foden and Sterling around on the flanks

[Pukey]

1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I'd rotate slightly due to trying to give some of our other key players a feel and for overall fitness, but not overly so. Scotland's left flank is their most dangerous, I wonder if Trippier will go to the right and Shaw/Chilwell come in on the left. 

If Kane isn't feeling his ribs I'd start DCL and I'd probably swap Foden and Sterling around on the flanks

I think he might want Walker's recovery speed against their left hand side, but his performance wasn't good today at all. I'd have Foden and Sterling swap as well, I'm surprised they didn't seem to swap at any point today. 

[themadsheep2001]

8 minutes ago, Pukey said:

I think he might want Walker's recovery speed against their left hand side, but his performance wasn't good today at all. I'd have Foden and Sterling swap as well, I'm surprised they didn't seem to swap at any point today. 

Yeah, could easily go with the same, but ask the players to be more fluid with what they do. With a cooler kickoff time might be higher tempo

[Baptista_8]

51 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

This is getting the MLG levels now. 

Maybe, but it's funny how everyone has just dismissed the stats, which are quite frankly unbelievable.

It does just beg the question how it's possible to not play a player of that ability, with the company he keeps in key stat areas for an attacking midfielder.

[Barry Cartman]

Sterling is awful on the right

[lennon67]

Baptista_8 definitely has a life size cardboard cut out of Jack Grealish in his room. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by lennon67

[CMOZZA]

I'm a Villa fan and a massive Grealish advocate but I knew he would be the fall guy for a bit of pace in behind. But I've tried to look at this from purely an England Fan Perspective. Southgate likes him slightly more than he did this time 12 months ago, which doesn't say a lot (ie he can answer a question about him without referring to Mason Mount first).

He loves Mount because of his all round game, and he sees Foden as the next big thing. Both rightly so but at the same time, neither of them provide that pace in behind either so the easy decision to add that dimension was to leave Jack out.

I don't really think Southgate sees him as competing with Mount so it leaves him competing with Foden (Assuming Pace is going to be used on the other wing?).

Almost like the Totti/Del Piero conundrum that Italy found themselves in back in the mid-late 00's, and unfortunately Jack has become Del Piero. Is he unlucky not to be starting at this particular tournament, possibly. Is he currently a better player than Foden, I think so. But there's not a whole pile in it and Foden should go on to be the better player long term. 

Overall it's not nice for Jack to be the odd man out, but it might just be a necessary sacrifice for the good of the team. I personally do not see Jack as an impact sub, he'd be much better starting and doing what he does for an hour and then letting Foden take over, rather than the other way around. But that's just my opinion.

It's one of those things that if Southgate manages it correctly, could be the difference between us being say, losing semi finalists, and tournament winners (Providing our defence holds up of course :D)

[CMOZZA]

4 minutes ago, lennon67 said:

Baptista_8 definitely has a life size cardboard cut out of Jack Grealish in his room. 

And? Whats wrong with that? 

[Razzler]

Have to be pleased with that, we pretty much controlled the game, Phillips was great, glad to see Sterling get a goal

I didn't realise there were players that were not in the squad, I was under the impression it was 'rest of the squad on the bench'. Seeing as all the teams have picked the same number of players for a squad, seems silly to be forced to leave out 2 each matchday

Pundit on beIN Sports trotting out the 'ol favourite, Croatia good technically but with these Croatian players they can also be lazy. Damn Paul Merson, damn Alan Shearer speaking in cliches ... oh, it was Gianfranco Zola! I can only imagine the frothing at 'the media' if an ex-England player doing pundit work uttered that line

[Rafalution]

7 hours ago, Rob1981 said:

"Expected assists"?  Do me a favour.  Expected goals is bad enough.  Basically a made up stat from people that want clicks and ad revenue.

Why specifically do you think its a bad stat?

[Baptista_8]

5 hours ago, lennon67 said:

Baptista_8 definitely has a life size cardboard cut out of Jack Grealish in his room. 

I mean I've posted some unbelievable stats which quite frankly suggest he's a world class footballer, and this is all you have to say

I realise I go over the top, I know I do, it's not because he plays for Villa. I've seen first hand what an incredible, unique player England have on their hands, fair enough more and more people have begun to catch on, but he should be starting. I also don't buy that Foden is guaranteed to become better than him either, it's a hell of a level to reach. He could well do, but it's not a given.

Anyway, those stats were posted on another forum with the context - How is any team in the world able to leave out a player like that?

I'll say now - aside from commenting on performances (if he makes any), this is the last Grealish stuff I'll post during the Euros.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Baptista_8

[Bigwig]

I think the problem you have at the moment is that you have Sterling, Rashford, Foden and Grealish all fighting it out for that left side role and whoever misses out gets moved to the right where they’re less effective.

Whoever one you leave out is going to raise questions and as soon as someone has a bad/average game it’s easy (and lazy) for people to say ‘well x would have been a better pick there’.

Is the general consensus that Mount deserves to have the central role nailed down or is it just expected because Southgate really rates him?  Seems a bit odd that there’s loads of debate about who gets the left hand slot when there doesn’t seem to be any debate about whether we should play Mount, Foden or Grealish in the middle of the three. 

[oche balboa]

Croatia were Poor yesterday. England played well in patches and did enough to win. Phillips and Mings were excellent and never put a foot wrong. Sterling was pretty average although took the goal well. We won and it was good to see. Never understood Trippler on the left hand side.

Edited June 14, 2021 by oche balboa

[samuelawachie]

31 minutes ago, Bigwig said:

I think the problem you have at the moment is that you have Sterling, Rashford, Foden and Grealish all fighting it out for that left side role and whoever misses out gets moved to the right where they’re less effective.

Whoever one you leave out is going to raise questions and as soon as someone has a bad/average game it’s easy (and lazy) for people to say ‘well x would have been a better pick there’.

Is the general consensus that Mount deserves to have the central role nailed down or is it just expected because Southgate really rates him?  Seems a bit odd that there’s loads of debate about who gets the left hand slot when there doesn’t seem to be any debate about whether we should play Mount, Foden or Grealish in the middle of the three. 

What makes you so sure that Foden is better on the left flank as opposed to the right? Just because Pep has been using him there, I suppose.

I actually would play him in the right if I were to manage someone like him. He'd be more influential and get on the ball more often. Better able to pick up runners with a diagonal over the top pass, or drive toward goal on his favored left foot, take a shot, or just add to the possession game.

It's just like when Messi was very young. He just grew more and more into that type of play-style and I think the English would benefit more from Foden if he grows on that flank and develops even more into his game from there.

If he's only put out left by his managers though, I can't see him improving much more than he already is.

[themadsheep2001]

52 minutes ago, samuelawachie said:

What makes you so sure that Foden is better on the left flank as opposed to the right? Just because Pep has been using him there, I suppose.

I actually would play him in the right if I were to manage someone like him. He'd be more influential and get on the ball more often. Better able to pick up runners with a diagonal over the top pass, or drive toward goal on his favored left foot, take a shot, or just add to the possession game.

It's just like when Messi was very young. He just grew more and more into that type of play-style and I think the English would benefit more from Foden if he grows on that flank and develops even more into his game from there.

If he's only put out left by his managers though, I can't see him improving much more than he already is.

He played on the right against Croatia and wasnt his usual fluid self, though that could well be down to the lack of fluidity from Kane in the middle, didn't drag defenders anywhere

 

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, Bigwig said:

I think the problem you have at the moment is that you have Sterling, Rashford, Foden and Grealish all fighting it out for that left side role and whoever misses out gets moved to the right where they’re less effective.

Whoever one you leave out is going to raise questions and as soon as someone has a bad/average game it’s easy (and lazy) for people to say ‘well x would have been a better pick there’.

Is the general consensus that Mount deserves to have the central role nailed down or is it just expected because Southgate really rates him?  Seems a bit odd that there’s loads of debate about who gets the left hand slot when there doesn’t seem to be any debate about whether we should play Mount, Foden or Grealish in the middle of the three. 

Bit of both on Mount. He's the most balanced of the three, and seems to be one of Southgate's key tactical lieutenants. So fitness dependent I'd think we will see him for the majority of the tournament, with one of the two others likely seen as deputy there. 

I'd like to see us given Foden a go on the left Vs Scotland

Foden is world class already, an overused term but I think it does apply.

I think it's important that Grealish starts one of the group games though

[skybluedave]

I really like Mount. Perfect modern day 'number 10'. Gone are the days of your Riquelme's or Valeron's etc. You need to offer everything there and Mount does that. Great vision and passing. Great energy and tenacity. Presses like a boss. Links with forwards but will drop back if needed. 

It's interesting that Southgate went for a 1-2 in midfield and not a 2-1 like expected. It gives us more options to drop Foden or Grealish into midfield like we speculated pre tournament 

[arenaross]

9 clean sheets in 11 games for Mings now. The weird outcry from football journo Twitter after his poor performance against Austria was a bit over the top imo. 

[Smallen]

Used to think Mount was just a system player but turns out he actually has everything. Hope he starts adding more goals to his game, because he definitely has the abilities.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, m_fenton said:

And on Trippier, did anyone else hear what Southgate said about the reasoning? Seems solid enough reasoning to me, more to do with individual players than tactics:

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/gareth-southgate-england-kieran-trippier-euro-2021-b940368.html

“We felt that his talking across the backline and his ability to get out and stop crosses quickly and his experience on a day like today - alongside Tyrone Mings, who is relatively early in his international career - would be a good stabilising element.”

“He is a very underrated player,” Southgate added. “People are still looking at the player from a few years ago and not at the one who is at Atletico Madrid and playing like a warrior in the last few seasons.

“He is a big part of what we’ve done over the last few years and he gave a really good performance.”

I did a double take at putting him on the left but I fully agree with the comment about underrating hi mI have watched him a lot this last season and he's been excellent in a 5 or a 3. He has massively changed from the player he was at Spurs. 

[Bigwig]

I can’t remember many England teams with so much competition for places.  You normally get a core group of 7-9 players with the odd remaining positions being up for grabs but it feels like most positions are there to be won.

The only two names who are definitely on the team sheet are possibly Kane and Maguire and even the latter is down to lack of options.

Henderson would have been another sure starter or so long ago but even he’s in the mix for a spot.

Goalkeepers, fullbacks, central midfielders and attacking midfielders are all interchangeable. 

[skybluedave]

Yeah prior to Sunday I think the only outfield players I were certain of not starting were White, Saka, and DCL. Everyone else you could see a possibility of them starting 

[Rob1981]

4 hours ago, Rafalution said:

Why specifically do you think its a bad stat?

“Expected assists”? How can you possibly use it as the basis of a head to head comparison between players that are at different clubs? It’s completely dependent on how teams are set up, how many other creative players there are in the same team, whether strikers make runs at the right time, how much space defenders give them to get shots away. So many ifs and buts.

I mean I get the idea: Grealish lays on a pass and it looks like It should be a goal, then the striker makes a hash of it. So you don’t penalise Grealish because the pass was still good. But use expected assists to compare him to Sterling then. Grealish is laying balls up to Ollie Watkins while Sterling is trying to find Aguero, and Aguero has got two defenders on him half the time because he’s a better striker at a better team and opponents are setting up just to try and avoid defeat.

So you don’t want to penalise Grealish for stuff he can’t control but you end up penalising other players instead. “Pick Grealish for England, he has more expected assists than Sterling!” What? Means nothing.

It’s a stat that only exists because Opta realised they could sell it to betting sites and realised it would get clicks from people like Baptista who want to try and win cyclical arguments on the internet.

[Rafalution]

 

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

“Expected assists”? How can you possibly use it as the basis of a head to head comparison between players that are at different clubs? It’s completely dependent on how teams are set up, how many other creative players there are in the same team, whether strikers make runs at the right time, how much space defenders give them to get shots away. So many ifs and buts.

That applies to every stat, its applies more so to assists than expected assists - should we stop comparing that too? 

[Rob1981]

Quite agree. Wouldn’t look at assists too closely either. I mean, this is literally why Gareth goes to games to see each player’s performance in context. Instead of picking a team based on internet memes.

[Haguey]

Whoscored do a TOTS based on statistics without context, I think they had Mustafi at CB one season 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Haguey

[Rob1981]

I mean if you went off stats alone we’d have taken Darren Huckerby to France 98.

[skybluedave]

Should have. Hucks and Dion Dublin up front would have beaten Argentina. Proven partnership

[Barry Cartman]

10 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I mean if you went off stats alone we’d have taken Darren Huckerby to France 98.

and Nick Pope would be starting in goal 

[Baptista_8]

46 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I mean, this is literally why Gareth goes to games to see each player’s performance in context. Instead of picking a team based on internet memes.

God knows how Sterling got picked then

[ajw10]

****. Sake.

This is as never ending as ****ing Covid

[Barry Cartman]

10 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

God knows how Sterling got picked then

Probably has something to do with it 

[Baptista_8]

1 minute ago, Barry Cartman said:

Probably has something to do with it 

I thought his point was that Southgate picks on performances and not stats?

[Baptista_8]

9 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

****. Sake.

This is as never ending as ****ing Covid

I'm not gonna be a sheep and be scared to have a different opinion.

[ajw10]

"I'm not going to post about Grealish again"

What you actually meant was that you were going to continue to slate anyone that's competing with Grealish.

Again, we get it. You genuinely think Grealish is one of the best players in the world and anyone competing with him is trash.

[Pukey]

While Sterling's performance had flaws, to me it was very obvious why he was picked and I think he justified it even before he scored. I hope he gets better, but he showed why he's trusted. 

Doesn't mean Grealish shouldn't play, he definitely should at some point, but there wasn't anything in Sterling's performance that will make Southgate desperate to drop him. 

[Baptista_8]

2 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

"I'm not going to post about Grealish again"

What you actually meant was that you were going to continue to slate anyone that's competing with Grealish.

Again, we get it. You genuinely think Grealish is one of the best players in the world and anyone competing with him is trash.

My post was nothing to do with Grealish? Rob was saying Southgate picks on club performances. I don't agree this is the only criteria he picks players on.

[Barry Cartman]

10 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

I thought his point was that Southgate picks on performances and not stats?

That was his point, and Sterling has been great for England in recent years for Southgate 

[Rob1981]

12 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

I thought his point was that Southgate picks on performances and not stats?

Christ. I said you can’t use PL stats from club level to make easy direct comparisons between players when the context is so different.

But those Sterling stats are from when he’s actually played for Gareth in other England matches ffs.

I mean surely you know this really.

[themadsheep2001]

2 hours ago, arenaross said:

9 clean sheets in 11 games for Mings now. The weird outcry from football journo Twitter after his poor performance against Austria was a bit over the top imo. 

I thought the criticism was over the top for that game on its own, but he'd done a few things in his last bunch of games that had left me concerned, but he certainly blew those doubts away for me as a more than able deputy to Maguire. Certainly wouldn't rush Maguire back unfit to play him in over Mings

[Baptista_8]

9 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Christ. I said you can’t use PL stats from club level to make easy direct comparisons between players when the context is so different.

But those Sterling stats are from when he’s actually played for Gareth in other England matches ffs.

I mean surely you know this really.

But if you're looking into the club stats with that much thought, why aren't you doing this with Sterling's?

I.e. what was the level of opposition he's been scoring against? Was he scoring the opener against a team sitting deep? Or is he adding a third or a fourth when that team are then more open as they're pushing to get back into the game?

All of this adds to to point that yes you should never go purely off stats, sometimes they can just help to emphasise things.

[Rob1981]

4 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

But if you're looking into the club stats with that much thought, why aren't you doing this with Sterling's?

I’m not looking into the club stats at all. How are you not getting this?  

[Baptista_8]

Just now, Rob1981 said:

I’m not looking into the club stats at all. How are you not getting this?  

How is thinking about how many defenders Aguero has on him not looking into them?

Btw I would much rather look at stats that relate to a player's overall performance than just numbers of goals anyway. What an example Filippo Inzaghi would be of this.