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The England Thread: It's coming home attempt 5782570


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2 hours ago, enigmatic said:

We ended up in a group with Portugal and Germany not that long ago. Romania qualified from that "group of death" with as many points as us and Germany put together...

Not that long ago? :D

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1 minute ago, skybluedave said:

Praying John Stones can hold it all together. Gonna end in tears ain't it.

Its England going into a tournament with high expectations an an enormously talented squad, of course its going to end in tears :D 

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Maguire got injured vs. Villa, right? So he's five weeks post injury. Unless it's really bad (in which case someone in the camp will have known and shouldn't have called him up), he should get back to fitness but it will be during the tournament. But it's going to be so difficult to make a return midway through a tournament, particularly if England are winning and looking good. If they're playing ****, or winning but looking like a bombscare in defence, might be easier because the pressure is off - not like it could get any worse in that scenario.

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If he’s not playing in the first game, then really difficult to see what kind of game time he will get. If he’s not fit for Scotland either then can pretty much forget him playing any major part in the tournament.

26 players though and we’ve got cover. Don’t really see the big deal in him being injured. 

 

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I think the issue is the quality of that cover. Behind the first two it's Mings, Coady, Ben White. Hardly inspires confidence. I didn't see too much of England's warmup games but it sounds like Mings wasn't very good, and that's in a friendly. Regardless of how good England are or play, there's going to be pressure and ideally you want as many guys out there as possible who are used to playing games with that sort of expectation and pressure. And obviously guys who are also good enough players.

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12 minutes ago, Lucas said:

26 players though and we’ve got cover. Don’t really see the big deal in him being injured. 

 

It’s more the combination of defence. Stones/Mings as a pairing is probably the most common people will pick, outside that it’s a real unknown who could partner who. It’s alright when it’s attackers and you don’t know who’s playing to keep opposition guessing, but defensively you want basically a 4 that you know will always play and all know each other’s in game styles. Otherwise good quality attackers will have a field day exposing it. 

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30 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

 

I think the issue is the quality of that cover.

 

If that’s the case I can see us playing 2 defensive minded CMs (DMs) in the knockout stages. 
 

Croatia aside we shouldn’t be too worried about the group stages. And if it helps Stones partner with some cover and do well then we might be okay. 

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Posted (edited)

It's not that easy though at international level unless you have players who already have an existing relationship at club level. Players can quickly emerge, players can quickly go off the boil. We've had no real consistent centre backs beyond Maguire. A year ago Stones was a write off. Tomori has only been viable recently once moving. White obviously emerged this year. Coady and Mings been around a while now and Mings has a few caps. In fact I'm not even sure Stones and Maguire have played together as a 2 much. 

The last WC Maguire had like 3 caps prior to being called up for WC. And as a unit I don't think Walker-Stone-Maguire had played before the warm up games. In fact I don't think we moved to back 3 til the February friendlies that year.

Ideal world we'd like a Bonnuci Chielini partnership but it just hasn't be possible. We've been mucking around with your Dier's, Keane's and Tarkowski's

Looking forward we really need a somebody young to emerge and play consistently at a decent level, who will always be called up and get games when Maguire and Stones aren't there. IE: Jamie Carragher. Someone who's a go to 3rd choice. Should have been Gomez, could be Tomori

Edited by skybluedave
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Posted (edited)

Yeh if Gomez can stay fit, he'll always get called up because he's good. And playing in the Champions League. Providing Tomori isn't rubbish next season, and providing Southgate doesn't have an issue with foreign-based players, he should get a call up at some point. All of a sudden the situation looks a lot better with four central defenders in the Champions League, vs. two in the squad at the moment. 

Then you won't need to call up average players like Mings or Coady. Or at least it will only be one of them at best.

Edited by Astafjevs
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1 hour ago, Marc Albrighton said:

Its England going into a tournament with high expectations an an enormously talented squad, of course its going to end in tears :D 

Is there high expectations? Anecdotally most are just looking forward to a **** up in the sun.

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1 hour ago, Marc Albrighton said:

Its England going into a tournament with high expectations an an enormously talented squad, of course its going to end in tears :D 

6 Left Wingers, 4 Right Backs.. its a genius move by Southgate. 

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1 hour ago, Lucas said:

If that’s the case I can see us playing 2 defensive minded CMs (DMs) in the knockout stages. 
 

Croatia aside we shouldn’t be too worried about the group stages. And if it helps Stones partner with some cover and do well then we might be okay. 

Wouldn't write off the Jocks, first major tournament in a generation and a chance to beat England at Wembley, they're going to be bang up for their game against us.

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God knows where the optimism of the last page or so stems form. It's England, right? With an utterly bollocks defence AND it's a tournament. Out at the first knock-out stage. Par for the course.

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37 minutes ago, sc91 said:

Is there high expectations? Anecdotally most are just looking forward to a **** up in the sun.

Probably a big dollop of both but i think generally there is high expectations whether they are warranted or not :D 

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11 hours ago, Lucas said:

If that’s the case I can see us playing 2 defensive minded CMs (DMs) in the knockout stages. 
 

Croatia aside we shouldn’t be too worried about the group stages. And if it helps Stones partner with some cover and do well then we might be okay. 

Ah, Man. United to beat Villarreal 6 - 1 with Fernandes and Cavani to score 3 goals each... Scholes: They would be blown out of the water. The United squad is superior and should win pretty easily. ESPN: There is no way that United can lose this game! 

...and then, what happened?

Oh gosh! English fans.. You guys are so cute (:

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25 minutes ago, afced7 said:

I love how foreign fans act like nobody outside England has ever shown any confidence in their team winning a game, they're so cute.

I don't think it's that. More that we aren't exposed to the overconfidence every tournament from other nations. 

It's generally more the media that are the nauseating thing though than fans themselves.

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16 minutes ago, Tony85 said:

Telegraph apparently suggesting that they may play Luke Shaw at centre-half.

If it's on the left of a back 3, it's not the most stupid thing.  In a proper back 3 (i.e. a 3 with genuine wingbacks, not a flat back 4 with an extra centre half thrown in), the wider centre half positions are almost as much fullbacks as they are centre halves.  Not sure I'd want both Kyle Walker and Luke Shaw in a back 3 at the same time though. 

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2 hours ago, samuelawachie said:

Ah, Man. United to beat Villarreal 6 - 1 with Fernandes and Cavani to score 3 goals each... Scholes: They would be blown out of the water. The United squad is superior and should win pretty easily. ESPN: There is no way that United can lose this game! 

...and then, what happened?

Oh gosh! English fans.. You guys are so cute (:

What has Man United got to do with Euro 2020 winners England? Get a grip :rolleyes:

Edited by ryan045
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2 hours ago, samuelawachie said:

Ah, Man. United to beat Villarreal 6 - 1 with Fernandes and Cavani to score 3 goals each... Scholes: They would be blown out of the water. The United squad is superior and should win pretty easily. ESPN: There is no way that United can lose this game! 

...and then, what happened?

Oh gosh! English fans.. You guys are so cute (:

No idea what was wrong with the post you quoted. We should get through the group ffs. This post is more arrogant and condescending than any English fans' post in here. In fact half the people here have been joking about us going out early ffs :D

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2 hours ago, samuelawachie said:

Ah, Man. United to beat Villarreal 6 - 1 with Fernandes and Cavani to score 3 goals each... Scholes: They would be blown out of the water. The United squad is superior and should win pretty easily. ESPN: There is no way that United can lose this game! 

...and then, what happened?

Oh gosh! English fans.. You guys are so cute (:

What even is this? :D  and why would I care about Man United?

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2 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

So would be Shaw LCB and Chilwell LWB?

According to the Telegraph. Shaw has played there before for United and was decent, but I'm not entirely sure what the benefit is for us. If he doesn't think Shaw gets ahead of Chilwell, just put Shaw on the bench. But then I'm still not sold on 3/5 man back line anyway

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2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

According to the Telegraph. Shaw has played there before for United and was decent, but I'm not entirely sure what the benefit is for us. If he doesn't think Shaw gets ahead of Chilwell, just put Shaw on the bench. But then I'm still not sold on 3/5 man back line anyway

The suggestion of Shaw at centre back reminds me a little bit of Hoddle’s recent suggestion to play Sterling at RWB. 

 

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2 hours ago, samuelawachie said:

Ah, Man. United to beat Villarreal 6 - 1 with Fernandes and Cavani to score 3 goals each... Scholes: They would be blown out of the water. The United squad is superior and should win pretty easily. ESPN: There is no way that United can lose this game! 

...and then, what happened?

Oh gosh! English fans.. You guys are so cute (:

As a United fan and who just watches International football cause football, this is a very bad take :D 

Every country backs their own, and sometimes they do go overboard and get cocky, why not? It's part of club football and will happen in any sport.

Nothing wrong with wanting your team to win or go through the latter stages of euros... 

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6 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

According to the Telegraph. Shaw has played there before for United and was decent, but I'm not entirely sure what the benefit is for us. If he doesn't think Shaw gets ahead of Chilwell, just put Shaw on the bench. But then I'm still not sold on 3/5 man back line anyway

I have no problems with Shaw at LCB, think he'd be solid, but I'm with you and would much prefer a 433.

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2 minutes ago, BigV said:

As a United fan and who just watches International football cause football, this is a very bad take :D 

Every country backs their own, and sometimes they do go overboard and get cocky, why not? It's part of club football and will happen in any sport.

Nothing wrong with wanting your team to win or go through the latter stages of euros... 

I don't think there is anything cocky about it. Its not even confidence it's just passion and the fact you want your own team to do well. England fans are very self-deprecating towards the team's actual chances of winning and doing anything of note and nobody actually cares what the media have to say about it apart from the fans of the small time ABE brigade who seem to bring it up as an excuse every time

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24 minutes ago, Lucas said:

The suggestion of Shaw at centre back reminds me a little bit of Hoddle’s recent suggestion to play Sterling at RWB. 

 

The Brendan Rodgers special. Used to switch him to RWB any time we were chasing a game in that post Suárez season. Not sure it ever worked...

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Tying ourselves in knots about our shaky defence ffs.

How many other sides are turning up with five Champions League finalists, two Europa League finalists, two three-time Premier League winners and a La Liga winner.

And three or four of them are veterans of a run to the WC semis.

On paper probably only the French with a defence anywhere near as good as ours.

Bit more belief in here please fellas.

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9 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Tying ourselves in knots about our shaky defence ffs.

How many other sides are turning up with five Champions League finalists, two Europa League finalists, two three-time Premier League winners and a La Liga winner.

And three or four of them are veterans of a run to the WC semis.

On paper probably only the French with a defence anywhere near as good as ours.

Bit more belief in here please fellas.

Anywhere near as good? Cmon man.

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Italy defence = old

Belgian defence = even older

Portugal defence = even older still

Spain defence = barely any of them have more than about 10 caps

Holland defence = one of them plays for Crystal Palace ffs

Germany are alright I'll grant you.

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England are strong at full back, centre backs I wouldn't say are anything special and that's even with the full strength one never mind whatever will line up. Then there's the keeper...

I wouldn't say it's a terrible defence or weaker than most you listed there, but you're just being a bit silly by saying it's far better than the others.

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I mean I'm not totally serious.

Don't fancy the Portuguese though, Pepe is 38 now, Jose Fonte is 37 :D  I think Hungary will do a number on them and they will be the shock first round exit.

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Just now, Rob1981 said:

I mean I'm not totally serious.

Don't fancy the Portuguese though, Pepe is 38 now, Jose Fonte is 37 :D  I think Hungary will do a number on them and they will be the shock first round exit.

Will be Pepe and Ruben Dias rather than Fonte surely? Pepe impressed me last time I watched him, but who knows whether his body will cope with a tournament.

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5 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Italy defence = old

Belgian defence = even older

Portugal defence = even older still

Spain defence = barely any of them have more than about 10 caps

Holland defence = one of them plays for Crystal Palace ffs

Germany are alright I'll grant you.

Germany's has looked worst of the bunch. :lol:

Bastoni is the best Italian CB, but you know them an trusting old players.

Portugal's defense is great, as we've seen against Juventus, Pepe still has it and Dias is probably the best CB in this moment.

 

Anyhow, back on topic, if anything the media says is right, Southgate is shooting himself in the foot.
We all know that most NT tournaments are won by well-drilled team. Even if one or two quality players are sacrificed and benched, it's usually worth it because it's all about the team and their cohesion.
Southgate trying to fit 4 full-backs and 4 wingers in the starting lineup is guaranteed to backfire, despite all of them being quality players.

You can't just change everything up before a big tournament.

But then on the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if we see a boring draw on Sunday since it's better to finish second.

All i know is that playing full-back on RCB/LCB against Croatia would be a disaster, remember the WC semi-final?

Perišić-Rebić probably start on the wings and they're easily the most physical winger duo on the tournament. Their strength isn't flair or trickery, it's bullying defenders when running into space between CBs and FBs.
And if you field Walker or Shaw in those side CB positions, that's a recipe for conceding far post cross headers all game long because both Rebić and Perišić have huge advantage over those two in the air.

Situation with Croatian team isn't great and England should be winning the game almost every single time...if Southgate fields a well-balanced team with everyone playing in their natural position.
It's not like he'd be leaving generational talent on the bench if one of Tripper/Walker and Chiwell/Shaw sits.

 

 

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Fonte just won the league at CB, and Pepe was an absolute animal defending against Juventus. They're old, but they love to defend along with Dias. If Portugal are happy to sit 10 yards deeper, they're probably one of the strongest defensively.

Portugal along with France, are the two countries that have the most balanced XI and the right qualities in the right areas. Both absolutely drilled into knowing their style for the country too, along with having won something recently. Them in a group with one of the most successful footballing nations ever, is a mad group. Has there ever been a group as competitive as that before? 3 of the previous major competition winners in one group. 

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It's not even an old defence is it. Pepe is, but the rest are 27, 24, and 27. And if they play that Sporting leftback instead of Guerreiro, then you can replace one of the 27s with an 18 year old.

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6 minutes ago, pearcey_90 said:

Fonte just won the league at CB, and Pepe was an absolute animal defending against Juventus. They're old, but they love to defend along with Dias. If Portugal are happy to sit 10 yards deeper, they're probably one of the strongest defensively.

Portugal along with France, are the two countries that have the most balanced XI and the right qualities in the right areas. Both absolutely drilled into knowing their style for the country too, along with having won something recently. Them in a group with one of the most successful footballing nations ever, is a mad group. Has there ever been a group as competitive as that before? 3 of the previous major competition winners in one group. 

Euro 2008 had Italy, Holland and France in the same group. World Cup holders and the runners up from two years prior. Although I don't think either were at the same level as Portugal or France are now. 

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Pointless anyone else turning up really, It Coming Home is such a formality.

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59 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Holland defence = one of them plays for Crystal Palace ffs

Palace who finished 4 places below who our goalkeeper plays for :D 

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Wow, didn't know that my last post would cause such a stir. Tongue-in-cheek guys, gosh! Almost seems like everyone now has to tread on eggshells to avoid triggering any backlash around here.

Was just hailing the eternal optimism that sometimes strays to overconfidence of the English fan, nothing more.

Can't wait for tomorrow! At last, the real games have come! These next 24 hours will be the slowest of all, I'm sure.

If it's not Germany, it's France or Spain.

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