A guide to defending like a real 442

[De Nile]

On 16/01/2022 at 22:32, sparkyunited said:

Still a bit of a work in progress but here is the current version I'm using with Red Star FC in Championnat National:

 

 

Concept: As per the mindset of a lot of the managers of that era of Serie A and more recently Mourinho and Simeone, my focus is on keeping a clean sheet while posing a threat on the counter. This is a different way of thinking compared to the tiki-taka/total football concept of possession football, in that he who has the ball is more likely to make a mistake!  

 

Formation/Roles: It's (very) loosely inspired by the Eriksson-era Lazio setup in the late 90s/early 2000s and the 4-4-2 setup more recently used by Simeone and Ranieri at Leicester. I particularly liked the "double 6" 4-4-2 Lazio played in big matches circa 2000/01 with Simeone and Almeyda in the double pivot with Nedved on the left and Veron on the right. Tight in the middle, creativity on the flanks is the order of the day. Veron also played through the middle or on the left at times but I've gone for the more conservative version of this formation. 

 

Midfield: The WP role will get the player into the half-spaces or creating from wide kinda like Veron (the little witch was everywhere!). Eriksson had other quality options like Stankovic (a utility with grit and quality) and Conceicao, for whom I'd swap the RM role to a WM if I felt I needed more width or another scoring threat (I find a narrow WM-A will bang in a lot of goals). The rest of the midfield PI's are similar to the OP (hold position for the CM, sit narrower for the IW, get further forward for the WP). 

 

Forwards: Eriksson had a bit of a revolving door of quality striker options over this time too with Vieri, Salas, Boksic, Inzaghi, Crespo, Lopez and Mancini (who I adore) all coming in and/or out of the club. I'm going for a DLF/AF combo at the moment but have also used a TM/PF(a) pairing to good effect so far (i.e. Boksic/Salas). You could pretty much go for any support+attack role combo and get one of the pairings he had available. In my setup, the DLF is my Mancini who I want to be both a creator but have the strength to be a target and hold the ball up. I want the AF to play on the shoulder in the attacking phase and our main counter-attacking threat. If you think of the Mancini/Vialli pairing at Sampdoria (there are some great highlights on YT for unfamiliar younguns) ...this is kind of what I'm going for. 

 

Defensive Shape: One key difference to the Lazio side is that this tactic has more active marking by the forwards, which was largely missing in the Eriksson era at Lazio (Marcelo Salas aside) as he primarily wanted them to stay higher up the pitch to offer a counter-attacking threat immediately after winning possession in their own half. The nice thing is that I find that the FM22 engine will let me keep a "proper" 4-4-2 defensive shape even with an AF if you use the OIs as per the OP (i.e. never pressing CD's and marking CM's). I would prefer to be able to play a little less compact at times to recreate how Lazio would defend in a deep block but have strikers virtually 50 yards upfield, but the match engine doesn't gel with this from a defensive perspective. Keeping things compact between the lines and having strikers in the passing lanes between the opposing CD & CMs is a nice compromise and allows us to defend the "Italian way" (to quote Claudio Ranieri). 

 

Defence: The defensive setup is pretty vanilla. My mindset on this is a little bit of a departure from the Lazio Low Block and I'm going for the Ranieri Leicester approach to having our midfield engage the opposition at the halfway line. For most games, I'm finding a mid-block helps us avoid conceding "worldies" from 35 yards out, or balls over the top, but still gives us enough room to get behind our opponents. In terms of PI's One full back (left side) is instructed to push forward and wide in possession while the other holds his position and stays narrower. The left CD is asked to stay wider to cover the left half-space when the full back moves forward. This gives me a 3-at-the-back shape at times, but this is not an aggressive "flying fullback" setup like you'd see in the modern era, it's simply to offer width in the build-up if we ever need it. Most of the time the ball is already in the final third before he makes the move anyway if we're playing as I want us to (fairly direct). 

 

Active Management: Throughout the game, I am also very active in managing the defensive line in games moving it up/down depending on the phase of the game. This is a real-world trait, as is the "waste time" if you're protecting a 1 or 2-0 lead or upping the pressing intensity if we're chasing the game. I tend to watch the first 10-15 minutes on "full match" to make sure the defensive structure is working as I want it to before switching to comprehensive highlights. 

 

Improvements: Despite the "Much More Direct" TI, I've found that this isn't hoofball and we have more possession than I'd like (remember, I do not want the ball) but this may change if we get promoted to Ligue 2 and are taking on much better teams. I'm still tweaking a few things to see if I can get our possession numbers down and want to make some squad improvements (I play under LLM/Llama "realism" style rules) so we'll see how things play out over this save. 

Cheers, S.

Really nice and very convenient that your doing this in LLM hopefully the results come through 

[yuchd]

Thanks for your sharing! Your tactical framework is logic and well-founded. 

However, after I adopt this strategy in FM2022，things might need a little bit alternation when dealing with new match engine.

1. BPD dribble upward

As seen below, defenders especially BPD like to dribble upward a lot more than before version. Virgil dribble and break down our let-defender-alone strategy, his position is even higher than DM and makes him easier to pass ball to front players. 

 

2. Drop of all kinds of forward

In FM2022, all central forward have cancelled going forward PIs, making them dropping back often rather than being isolated in the front. In the picture below we see Minamino as Advanced forward, he even drop to AM-CM positions to connect to other players. This breaks down our mid-block as their BPD dribble upwards at the same time (You can also see this in the first pic, the AF drop back very deep to connect BPD and overwhelm our center zone).

 

In conclusion, BPD upwards and forward downwards makes it harder to adopt low-mid block. Maybe that's why pressing high is still widely used in FM2022. I'm not sure what to alter in this system, I tried only press BPD, it works better but maybe some of you can bring more new ideas~ 

[Djeon36]

On 18/01/2022 at 20:34, yuchd said:

Thanks for your sharing! Your tactical framework is logic and well-founded. 

However, after I adopt this strategy in FM2022，things might need a little bit alternation when dealing with new match engine.

1. BPD dribble upward

As seen below, defenders especially BPD like to dribble upward a lot more than before version. Virgil dribble and break down our let-defender-alone strategy, his position is even higher than DM and makes him easier to pass ball to front players. 

 

2. Drop of all kinds of forward

In FM2022, all central forward have cancelled going forward PIs, making them dropping back often rather than being isolated in the front. In the picture below we see Minamino as Advanced forward, he even drop to AM-CM positions to connect to other players. This breaks down our mid-block as their BPD dribble upwards at the same time (You can also see this in the first pic, the AF drop back very deep to connect BPD and overwhelm our center zone).

 

In conclusion, BPD upwards and forward downwards makes it harder to adopt low-mid block. Maybe that's why pressing high is still widely used in FM2022. I'm not sure what to alter in this system, I tried only press BPD, it works better but maybe some of you can bring more new ideas~ 

Hey I think a good idea would be to make the BPD dribble less and take less risks on their PI. Or just switch to a CB(D) and add take more risks or increase passing directness if u want it to be more like a BPD. For the CF I'd say change it to a Poacher or a PF on attack. I'm not too sure how these will work out but just an idea to try it out.

[yuchd]

11 小时前, Djeon36说:

Hey I think a good idea would be to make the BPD dribble less and take less risks on their PI. Or just switch to a CB(D) and add take more risks or increase passing directness if u want it to be more like a BPD. For the CF I'd say change it to a Poacher or a PF on attack. I'm not too sure how these will work out but just an idea to try it out.

Thanks but I'm Burnley playing against Liverpool's BPD.

[Mutumba]

On 16/01/2022 at 23:32, sparkyunited said:

Still a bit of a work in progress but here is the current version I'm using with Red Star FC in Championnat National:

 

 

Concept: As per the mindset of a lot of the managers of that era of Serie A and more recently Mourinho and Simeone, my focus is on keeping a clean sheet while posing a threat on the counter. This is a different way of thinking compared to the tiki-taka/total football concept of possession football, in that he who has the ball is more likely to make a mistake!  

 

Formation/Roles: It's (very) loosely inspired by the Eriksson-era Lazio setup in the late 90s/early 2000s and the 4-4-2 setup more recently used by Simeone and Ranieri at Leicester. I particularly liked the "double 6" 4-4-2 Lazio played in big matches circa 2000/01 with Simeone and Almeyda in the double pivot with Nedved on the left and Veron on the right. Tight in the middle, creativity on the flanks is the order of the day. Veron also played through the middle or on the left at times but I've gone for the more conservative version of this formation. 

 

Midfield: The WP role will get the player into the half-spaces or creating from wide kinda like Veron (the little witch was everywhere!). Eriksson had other quality options like Stankovic (a utility with grit and quality) and Conceicao, for whom I'd swap the RM role to a WM if I felt I needed more width or another scoring threat (I find a narrow WM-A will bang in a lot of goals). The rest of the midfield PI's are similar to the OP (hold position for the CM, sit narrower for the IW, get further forward for the WP). 

 

Forwards: Eriksson had a bit of a revolving door of quality striker options over this time too with Vieri, Salas, Boksic, Inzaghi, Crespo, Lopez and Mancini (who I adore) all coming in and/or out of the club. I'm going for a DLF/AF combo at the moment but have also used a TM/PF(a) pairing to good effect so far (i.e. Boksic/Salas). You could pretty much go for any support+attack role combo and get one of the pairings he had available. In my setup, the DLF is my Mancini who I want to be both a creator but have the strength to be a target and hold the ball up. I want the AF to play on the shoulder in the attacking phase and our main counter-attacking threat. If you think of the Mancini/Vialli pairing at Sampdoria (there are some great highlights on YT for unfamiliar younguns) ...this is kind of what I'm going for. 

 

Defensive Shape: One key difference to the Lazio side is that this tactic has more active marking by the forwards, which was largely missing in the Eriksson era at Lazio (Marcelo Salas aside) as he primarily wanted them to stay higher up the pitch to offer a counter-attacking threat immediately after winning possession in their own half. The nice thing is that I find that the FM22 engine will let me keep a "proper" 4-4-2 defensive shape even with an AF if you use the OIs as per the OP (i.e. never pressing CD's and marking CM's). I would prefer to be able to play a little less compact at times to recreate how Lazio would defend in a deep block but have strikers virtually 50 yards upfield, but the match engine doesn't gel with this from a defensive perspective. Keeping things compact between the lines and having strikers in the passing lanes between the opposing CD & CMs is a nice compromise and allows us to defend the "Italian way" (to quote Claudio Ranieri). 

 

Defence: The defensive setup is pretty vanilla. My mindset on this is a little bit of a departure from the Lazio Low Block and I'm going for the Ranieri Leicester approach to having our midfield engage the opposition at the halfway line. For most games, I'm finding a mid-block helps us avoid conceding "worldies" from 35 yards out, or balls over the top, but still gives us enough room to get behind our opponents. In terms of PI's One full back (left side) is instructed to push forward and wide in possession while the other holds his position and stays narrower. The left CD is asked to stay wider to cover the left half-space when the full back moves forward. This gives me a 3-at-the-back shape at times, but this is not an aggressive "flying fullback" setup like you'd see in the modern era, it's simply to offer width in the build-up if we ever need it. Most of the time the ball is already in the final third before he makes the move anyway if we're playing as I want us to (fairly direct). 

 

Active Management: Throughout the game, I am also very active in managing the defensive line in games moving it up/down depending on the phase of the game. This is a real-world trait, as is the "waste time" if you're protecting a 1 or 2-0 lead or upping the pressing intensity if we're chasing the game. I tend to watch the first 10-15 minutes on "full match" to make sure the defensive structure is working as I want it to before switching to comprehensive highlights. 

 

Improvements: Despite the "Much More Direct" TI, I've found that this isn't hoofball and we have more possession than I'd like (remember, I do not want the ball) but this may change if we get promoted to Ligue 2 and are taking on much better teams. I'm still tweaking a few things to see if I can get our possession numbers down and want to make some squad improvements (I play under LLM/Llama "realism" style rules) so we'll see how things play out over this save. 

Cheers, S.

Looks smart enough. Are there any other PIs that arent mentioned in your post?

RB Stay narrower, hold position

CD none

CD stay wider

LB Move forward, stay wider

RM get further forward

CM Hold position

BWM none

IW Sit narrower, 

DLF none

AF none

 

[nick1408]

On 17/01/2022 at 09:32, sparkyunited said:

Still a bit of a work in progress but here is the current version I'm using with Red Star FC in Championnat National:

 

 

*Snip*

Cheers, S.

I've taken some inspiration from @sparkyunited and put my own spin on things to suit my team.

 

To start with; I'm playing as Everton and won the Premier League last season (2023/24) so am a top side rather than a bottom side. My winning tactic was a mixture of a 4-4-2 changing to a 4-3-3 towards the back end of the season. My plan was to go forward with the 4-3-3 until I got inspiration to go back to a different 4-4-2.

Tactic:

Right Back: Sit Narrower

Left Back: Stay Wider

Right Midfielder: More Direct Passes

Midfield Centre Right: More Direct Passes

Left Midfielder: Take More Risks, Dribble More, Cut Inside With Ball, Roam From Position, Sit Narrower

Striker Right: Mark Tighter, Mark Specific Position (MCL)

Striker Left: Mark Tighter, Mark Specific Position (MCR)

 

I may need some explanation here as to decisions I made.

 

Defence:

I purchased Dwight McNeil to play as an IWB in my 4-3-3. I've used McNeil as an attacking full back/wing back previously and he does an excellent job. With the change of tactic I decided that the left would be my attacking side. This does leave me a bit vulnerable due to the selection of roles in this part of the pitch but I feel the balance between defence and attack is fine. I may switch McNeil to a WB-De if I want some defensive stability while maintaining penetration but at the moment I have no concerns. On the other side Matty Cash is already a fairly aggressive full back so having him on a support duty doesn't take away from his attacking tendencies. He is especially important as with two playmaker roles in front of him I need a role that won't get caught forward. More on this later.

Finally, I'm not sold on the BPD and whether he is on the correct side yet. I'm also toying with cross aim options. The left would be cross aim: centre while the right would be to the target forward.

As the title is to defend like a real 4-4-2 I'd better show what is happening. The above screenshot isn't perfect but that's probably a good thing to see for the moment. This is from a goal kick (I think) but as you can see I have more or less lined up as required in two banks of four and a bank of two - well, almost. Richarlison has made an attacking run and is now tracking back to the position he should have been in.

What needs to be noted here is how the team instructions come into play. Originally, I had the LOE and defensive line a click higher. What I found is that my banks were defending too soon and not leaving enough space for a counter. The other key here is to close down less often. While Richarlison is out of position the player on their right isn't really an option for Bissouma to pass to as McNeil hasn't closed down the open player. If the pass does come in (it didn't) McNeil is in the perfect position to not be run around and caught on the back foot. Also note the two central midfielders haven't left their designated positions and opened passing lanes for a dangerous pass. Bissouma passed forward to the player trying to move between the central defenders only to have the ball turned over.

If anything, I may be a little too compact but I'm not inclined to change yet.

Midfield:

As I was playing with inverted wingers in the 4-3-3 I didn't have a winger in my side (other than McNeil) to stretch opposition in midfield. This was always going to limit my choices. my original midfield looked something like this (ignore the players):

There's nothing wrong with the above but I did have some issues:

• Richarlison was relatively impotent in the midfield
• WP-At was getting isolated
• When on the ball the DLP was isolated

I had a memory from another discussion about having two playmakers next to each other (apologies to the thread/poster who wrote about that). What I wanted was to create an overload without using the focus passing option. I didn't actually want too much ball funneled down the right, more I just wanted the players with the composure and passing ability to receive the ball then open up the attacking options with smart passing. This is opposite to the left where those players are expected to attack the box and receive passes.

The BWM has a main aim of defending the mid-left while also being able to attack. Like a really aggressive BBM. I got Declan Rice as West Ham got relegated but previously I had Tommaso Pobega who I really like in this position. Pobega can pass and defend but more importantly can attack the box very well:

So, I like the traits (although cutting inside means nothing here). His off the ball is good enough for the role he is playing, Add in his work rate and positioning he is perfect for what I want him to do. Everything here just works.

 

Attack:

Nothing really to note here. Just a TF-AF partnership.

 

A little analysis:

All the screenshots have come from one match. I do get a bit lazy when writing so tend to grab all the screenshots I need then write about them. The point is, I should have picked a winning match rather than a 2-2 draw with 5th placed Newcastle. The match is also mid-December so fatigue is a factor with selections and condition at the end of the match. With that in mind I can comfortably say we dropped points due to errors by Pickford - hence his rating compared to the other defenders. In this particular match I don't really like the amount of ball Sucic has seen, particularly for only one key pass. This does marry up with what happened in the match though:

Branthwaite has the ball but both playmaking options are blocked - Sucic in particular with some tight marking. What I probably should have done is focused the passing down the left to try and open up the right for Sucic and Rice to operate in.

What I do like here is I have the main three attacking threats all one-on-one with defenders. McNeil is also open to make an attacking run.....

Which he does to somewhat decent effect. This is one part of the tactic I'm not happy with.  Clearly McNeil has no option other than to put in a blocked cross. What I would have loved to have seen is Pobega a bit more forward to be an outlet option when the cross is no longer the best option. Right now it isn't something I'd worry myself with but it is something to keep an eye on. One option (as mentioned earlier) is to change the role of McNeil. An early cross could have opened up a good run for Cash and an attack from the right rather than the left.

The good here is the amount of people in the box. Sucic is still tightly marked but all attackers are still one-on-one for the cross receive with Rice ready to mop up anything that spills out of the box. Also to note, two guys on Richarlison, one on Sucic leaving not enough to defend Calvert-Lewin and Lucca.

 

One thing you may have noticed is the lack of transition instructions. Reason being is that I don't want to counter-press and drag my team out of shape. Also, as I am pressing less it seems counter-intuitive to trigger the press later but also counter-press.

Here I have lost the ball and am immediately in the transition phase. While the left is open (and I have discussed that already) it isn't a bad situation to be in. Antony is the player most forward so has no-one forward to help a counter attack. if their right back had the ball and Antony was already attacking I'd be worried (I'd also need to see this consistently to force a change). While this may look bad I am in a relatively strong position: three defenders already back with Cash looking to pick up their left midfielder, two strong bodies already in midfield with Pobega tracking a runner (and potential ball receiver), Sucic ignoring the guy in no man's land. Richarlison has attacked the box so I need to forgive him for being out of position. This is going to happen often but the only real worry is where McNeil finds himself. He has already been told to stay wide. Really though, results are in my favour so there isn't too much reason to force a change yet. I would like to see where opposition assists are coming from but I can't find that information in the datahub.

 

 

[ta11zx]

How do you adjust when you want to see a game out or need that extra gol.

 

And what do you do when you hit bad form or the "ai adjust to your tactics"? 

Edited January 22, 2022 by ta11zx

[nick1408]

3 hours ago, ta11zx said:

How do you adjust when you want to see a game out or need that extra gol.

Depends on how I feel. Sometimes I move the defensive line & LOE up or down, sometimes I shoot on sight, sometimes I adjust the attacking width. No hard and fast rule.

3 hours ago, ta11zx said:

 

And what do you do when you hit bad form or the "ai adjust to your tactics"? 

Depends on the reason for bad form. Currently I'm in a tough period but that's because of lack of fit players. If the form is due to opposition then it'd be subtle changes like above. Even different players if someone keeps getting marked out of a game.

 

Nothing hard and fast really. Just what I feel is right.

[ta11zx]

On 16/01/2022 at 17:32, sparkyunited said:

Management: Throughout the game, I am also very active in managing the defensive line in games moving it up/down depending on the phase of the game. This is a real-world trait, as is the "waste time" if you're protecting a 1 or 2-0 lead or upping the pressing intensity if we're chasing the game. I tend to watch the first 10-15 minutes on "full match" to make sure the defensive structure is working as I want it to before switching to comprehensive highlights

This is the part i struggle with the most.  Can you expand on this? 

Edited January 26, 2022 by ta11zx

[MiguelSB]

I've been implementing the principles brought here by the OP with very satisfying results on FM22.

 

Using a AF is possible and still maintain the defensive shape. Been doing it on the lower leagues of Portugal.

Some context below.

I'm playing Sporting de Espinho in the Portuguese 4th tier. I have an above average balanced squad.

 

Mentally and technically above average but really average physically.

 

This is how we line-up:

 

- A more aggressive CDst behind the more forward thinking CMs

- FBs supporting the Wa on the left, FBa on the right flank to promote 2v1 going outside the WMa who is told to tuck inside

- Double pivot in the middle of the park with a BWMs told to hold position and a more creative CMs

- Up front a TMs and a AFa

 

- Play narrow is the only TI in possession

 

- Counter and taking advantage of the BPD to start our build up.

 

- A narrow mid-low block (Lower LOE/Standard DL)

- Less closing down and tight hard marking to deny space between the lines.

 

 

And now onto the details that I found to make the most impact on the way we actually defend:

- Never press or tight mark the CD's

- Tight mark the DMC and MC

- Always press the wide players (Fullbacks and Wide midfielders/Wingers)

- I also have my strikers instructed to tight mark (PI) and my fullbacks to mark wide positions (AML/AMR)

 

 

And this is what all that translates to in the game:

- Those nice looking two banks of 4 and the 2 strikers limiting the passing lanes to the CM's

 

 

- The ball gets wide triggering our press

- Strikers shifting to that side and limiting space to play on the central midfielders

- Double pivot holding position in the middle of the field

 

- Defensive shape holding our ground and denying all passing lanes to the creative midfield

- Only safe passing options for the left fullback is passing back to the CD's

- Only passing lanes to get forward include higher risk passes either to the strikers or to the wide forward players.

 

I saw this pattern time and time again with the ball being played long for easy interceptions from our defenders as we have a very solid base to go for the interception or to tackle for a opponent choosing to go for the dribble.

 

 

 

- Our average position without the ball

- And with the ball, ready for a quick counter or a more thought out build up.

 

All this lead to a fantastic first phase of the season that took us to the promotion playoffs and eventually to securing the promotion.

We had a solid team but I wasn't expecting this kind of form with the best defence and best attack. Even more after having lost 2 star players to long term injuries - ST 8 months off and our DLP for 4 months.

So, thanks to @cocoadavidand a few others that layed out some great pieces of expertise to finally be able to defend properly in a 4-4-2.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by MiguelSB
Added more in-depth info, fixing images

[CharlieTZR]

I keep trying to use this tactic with FM23  but I guess I am doing something wrong as I get the message from assistant that there is a gap between defense and midfield and this might be exploited by the opposition.  What am I doing wrong?

 

 

[pats]

Has anyone got the solid, Someone style compact 4-4-2 defensive shape to work in FM23? I can't get my wide players to defend centrally/half spaces and they always defend outside the block making it look like a back 6.

Edited October 9, 2023 by pats

[golden-goose]

On 09/10/2023 at 04:18, pats said:

Has anyone got the solid, Someone style compact 4-4-2 defensive shape to work in FM23? I can't get my wide players to defend centrally/half spaces and they always defend outside the block making it look like a back 6.

Anyone got an answer for this? I have the same experience.

[PedroSMC]

Le 07/01/2024 à 20:37, golden-goose a dit :

Anyone got an answer for this? I have the same experience.

Same Issue here in FM24 when I tried to use a similar 4-4-2 defensive tactic

[Bahnzo]

I've noticed that I can't seem to tell my players never mark and never press. I try setting those OI's to the CD's and every time my strikers press them still. 

[Duracellio]

Em 09/10/2023 em 03:18, pats disse:

Has anyone got the solid, Someone style compact 4-4-2 defensive shape to work in FM23? I can't get my wide players to defend centrally/half spaces and they always defend outside the block making it look like a back 6.

The only way I got this to happen is with defensive wingers. They tend to defend a bit inside.

Em 16/01/2024 em 06:44, Bahnzo disse:

I've noticed that I can't seem to tell my players never mark and never press. I try setting those OI's to the CD's and every time my strikers press them still. 

I feel the same, I dont think those OI's work properly to be honest. It's the same with our own CD's. I have them to press less and they still follow the opponnent forever, towards the sunset...it's very annoying.

[Birtan61]

There is very good information on this page. It would be useful to try it for FM24, but since the match engines are different, it will probably not have the same effect.