My attacking principles (as inspired by the Red Bull philosophy)

[Silver Sweeper]

Introduction

I really enjoy reading through the Tactics, Training & Strategies forum, the quality of some of the posts is exceptional and a visit to the site often inspires me to experiment in my own games.  So, I thought I'd share some of my own tactical ideas, starting with the offensive approach I'm applying in my current save with RB Leipzig.  I hope you find the topic interesting.

I’d like to open with a quote about ‘tactics’ and ‘strategies’ taken from a popular podcast…

Quote

“Tactics are the principles of play which you would use week to week, the way that you want your team to play irrespective of the formation or the opponent, things that the players recognise and are convinced by that are going to be consistent every week.

The strategy will be how you use your tactics against a specific opponent.”

- Stevie Grieve

That particular episode of the World Football Index Tactics Podcast (entitled Strategy & Tactics) first aired in 2016, and when I heard Stevie’s characterisation of tactics and strategy it really struck a chord with me.  In the context of football manager we often talk about ‘tactics’ as being the sum of all parts - formation, roles, duties, mentalities, team and player instructions - but even the top sides will face a number of different styles and strategies over the course of a season, so it’s counterintuitive to expect a ‘one size fits all’ approach to be successful in every game.

Over the course of a single save, I look to evolve a set of tactical principles that defines my team’s style of play but, at the same time, I’ll employ a variety of different strategies (formations, players, roles and duties) to gain an advantage over my opponents.  As the strategy can vary from game to game, I intend to focus on the tactical principles that I’ve adopted in my latest save.  As I’m managing RB Leipzig it’s only natural that I’ve found inspiration in the philosophy of the Red Bull School of Football Management and its alumni.

 

Attacking Principles

The players are encouraged to attack vertically, often moving the ball from back to front quickly.  These are not speculative long balls but deliberate passes that can bypass several opposition players at once. We're not afraid to commit players into the final third either and favour ‘top heavy’ systems such as the 4-2-3-1 or, more commonly, the 4-2-2-2.  These formations, combined with higher mentalities and a narrow attacking width, help to isolate opposition defenders in one-on-one situations, or destabilise them with player movements and quick passing combinations.

FM21 interpretation: 4-2-4 wide, 4-2-4 DM wide, 4-2-3-1 DM AM wide, positive/attacking mentality, narrow/very narrow attacking width, pass into space, higher/much higher tempo

 

Higher line of engagement & counter-pressing

Much of my philosophy at RB Leipzig relies on effective transitions, counter-pressing when we lose the ball and counter-attacking when we win it.  In the majority of games we press hard and apply a high line of engagement, what I would call an aggressive mid/high block.   Against more technical sides, however, we tend to be more cautious in the press and may drop our line of engagement to standard.

I find that top heavy formations lend themselves to fast attacking transitions because the team immediately have 3 or 4 players ahead of the ball when they gain possession. In the video clip below Augsburg are playing with a high defensive line and the Leipzig players close down Carlos Gruezo as soon as he receives the ball in a deep position.  This forces Gruezo to misplace his pass and Emil Forsberg intercepts.  Due to their advanced positioning RB Leipzig have four players ahead of the ball and outnumber Augsburg's three defenders.  Felix Uduokhai gets a tackle in but it's not enough to deny Die Roten Bullen and, after a piece of individual brilliance from Yussuf Poulsen, the ball is in the back of the net.

FM21 interpretation: counter-press, higher/much higher defensive line, standard/higher line of engagement, urgent/extremely urgent pressing intensity, close down more (player instruction)

 

Counter-attacking from deep

If the team can't win the ball back quickly we'll drop back into a low block and force our opponents to go wide.  When you are using top heavy systems it is important to use the right balance of support and defend mentalities amongst your midfielders and defenders, if you commit too many players forward without covering the space behind your opponents will be threatening your goal before you've had a chance to set your defensive shape.  I like to use a double pivot (two DM's) to help provide some defensive solidity and I favour full-backs over wing-backs due to their deeper starting position.

After winning possession deep in our own territory we aim to progress the ball forward quickly, trying to find the most advanced player in as few passes as possible.  Because a lot of teams push their full backs further forward there's often space on the flanks which can be exploited by a quick counter attack and the players combine to create triangles in the half spaces.  One of our most productive attacking patterns is a diagonal ball into the path of a forward making a vertical run behind.

The video clip below is taken from a resounding win over Chelsea in the UEFA Champions League.  Callum Hudson-Odoi's low cross is cut out by Konrad Laimer and the ball bounces away before being picked up by Dani Olmo.  Yussuf Poulsen has come wide and he, Olmo and Angeliño play a quick combination of passes before launching the ball at an angle to meet Alexander Sørloth's run.  Sørloth is one-on-one with Edouard Mendy and the Chelsea 'keeper doesn't stand a chance as RB Leipzig make it 4-0.

FM21 interpretation: full backs not wing backs, 2 defensive midfielders, play out of defence, whipped crosses, standard/slightly higher passing directness, counter

 

Creating space through movement & rotations

Committing players into the attack occupies the opposing defenders and gives them a headache, if our players are also mobile and constantly swapping positions this can create space for others.  The image below depicts our typical attacking shape when playing in a 4-2-2-2 system.  The front four operate in that all important zone behind the opposition midfield and in front of their defence.  This high positioning forces the opposition defenders to choose  between pressing our forwards, and risk leaving gaps in behind, or dropping off thereby conceding space on the edge of the box.  And because the forward line is horizontally compact, the opposition defence are drawn inside which creates space for our full backs to attack.

In the following video clips you'll find four goals all of which were scored because we forced our opposition to concede space.  In the first video our wingers have inverted and the opposing full backs have tracked them inside, on both occasions our own full-back was able to run into the empty space and rifle the ball home.  In the second of the two videos, the opposition's defensive line is sat so deep that our midfielder, Amadou Haidara, has acres of space to score from the edge of the area.

FM21 interpretation: inverted wingers, inside forwards, false nine, roam from position (player instruction), move into channels (player instruction), sit narrower (player instruction), cut inside with ball (player instruction), narrow/very narrow attacking width

 

Building-up from the back and goalkeeper distribution

Whilst the team are encouraged to attack vertically, play often starts from deep within our own half.  Playing out from the back can provoke the opposition to press from the front which, in turn, can lead to space being opened up further up the pitch; space we can exploit with (you guessed it) quick vertical balls.

Goal kicks are the first phase of attack and we both use long and short distribution in our build-up depending on the opponent's press.  The image below illustrates our typical set-up at goal kicks when playing in a 4-2-2-2 system.  The centre backs have positioned themselves alongside the goalkeeper in the 18 yard box, the double pivot is staggered in front of the area and the full backs are hugging the touchline providing a diagonal passing option.  The forward line, however, is pushed right up against our opponents defensive line.  

If the 'keeper plays a short ball (to the centre backs or midfielders) our wingers will drop deeper and play is often progressed through the half space through a series of triangles formed by the players on that flank.  If the opposition are pressing hard at goal kicks then our 'keeper will go long to the forwards.  The physicality of forwards like Poulsen and Sørloth, can cause our opponents all sorts of problems when the 'keeper plays the long ball.

In the last of my video analysis, RB Leipzig score against Arminia Bielefeld with a goal that combines many of the elements we've discussed in this post.  The move begins with a short goal-kick passed to Dayot Upamecano, who advances the ball down the right flank via Nordi Mukiele and Konrad Laimer.  Whilst the team are building up from deep, the movement of our forwards is creating space for the vertical attack.  Centre forward Alexander Sørloth has dropped deep into midfield and Emil Forsberg has moved inside from the right wing.   Joakim Nilsson has neglected his duties in the centre of Bielefeld's defence to come and close down Forsberg, this leaves a sizeable gap for Yussuf Poulsen to run into.  Spotting the opportunity for a quick attack, Laimer launches the ball forward and Forsberg nods it on into the empty space behind the Bielefeld defence.  Poulsen beats Mike Van Der Hoorn for pace and his first time shot is low and hard to the goalkeeper's right.  The entire move, from front to back, took less than 13 seconds to complete.

FM21 interpretation: sweeper keeper (support), play out of defence, distribute to centre backs/over opposition defence

 

Season Summary

In my first season managing RB Leipzig our attacking ideology proved to be very successful winning 28 games and lifting the Bundesliga title.  We also scored the most goals, created the most goal scoring opportunities, had the highest xG and the second highest xP.  It also appears that attack really is the best form of defence as we conceded the fewest goals (less than 0.65 per game) and kept the most clean sheets.

Our champions league campaign was less successful as we got trounced by Liverpool in the quarter finals, however, we did top a difficult group that included Chelsea and Juventus.  We also overcame FC Porto with an aggregate score of 5-2 in the first knockout round.

 

[Silver Sweeper]

Reserved

[buachuta]

Great write-up. Wonder what's your roles upfront? It looks like all of them are attacking, but you mention a false nine. Hopefully you will update soon

[Silver Sweeper]

22 hours ago, buachuta said:

Great write-up. Wonder what's your roles upfront? It looks like all of them are attacking, but you mention a false nine. Hopefully you will update soon

Thanks. 

The focus on our attacking 'tactics' rather than the 'strategies' employed (formations, players, roles and duties) was intentional; this is because I'll frequently make changes to our 'strategy' as we come up against different opponents with different strengths, weaknesses and strategies of their own.

As outlined above, our attacking principles are to have numbers forward and to use these players in order to isolate or disrupt the opposition defenders.  We may try to isolate the opposition in 1-on-1's by stretching play and overloading down one side - for example, we may set up a 4-2-4 with a playmaker on one flank and a wide forward on the other. Alternatively, we may try to beat a more compact defence by having players who 'roam from position' or cut in from wide positions - creating space by dragging a defender from their assigned position, either horizontally or vertically.

So the tactical principles always remain the same - commit men to the attack, create space and attack vertically - but the strategy, including player roles and duties, changes depending on the opposition.  Before you can exploit your opponents weaknesses you need to identify them - as they say 'fail to prepare, prepare to fail' - and soon, I hope to write a bit more about how I scout my opponents and prepare for matches.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Silver Sweeper

[SixPointer]

Lovely write up! Nice clips as well am a huge fan of watching the ideas play out. Great system you have taking with real life ideas and implemented it into FM not a easy task well done keep up the good work 👏🏻

[Robson 07]

On 15/05/2021 at 13:17, Silver Sweeper said:

Over the course of a single save, I look to evolve a set of tactical principles that defines my team’s style of play but, at the same time, I’ll employ a variety of different strategies

Hiya, I can't help myself pointing this out but you're almost using the terms the wrong way around.  Strategy is the long term vision; tactics are the short term actions.

[Silver Sweeper]

10 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

Hiya, I can't help myself pointing this out but you're almost using the terms the wrong way around.  Strategy is the long term vision; tactics are the short term actions.

Potato, Potahto 

I took my definition from the Stevie Grieve quote in the opening post, and that still makes sense to me.  But whatever your preferred definition, my over-arching point is that I like to approach the game with a set of principles which only change subtly over several seasons.  I do, however, make tweaks to formations, player roles, duties, etc. based on my next opponent (although I'm definitely not saying that I make changes for every game!)

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I really enjoyed reading this thread; particularly the use of video and the match engine screenshots. Well done and thank you for sharing! 

Like many, I have become increasingly fascinated by the 'German school' of managers currently dominating football. I'm in East Africa at the moment and there's a lot of German football shown on TV due to a football-mad population and it's a really interesting league.

Previously I had thought that the league was 'press, press, press', but there is far more too it than that. Sides do certainly press and it's extremely well organised but not necessarily high all of the time.

In the same way you identify formations being flexible, I am noticing that the playing style for someone like Nagelsman for example is more flexible than for say Klopp or Guardiola.

I notice some principles are pretty constant, such as:

• Very collective, well-organised defensive shape
• Often building from the back but in a more direct way than other leagues
• Structured well-organised attacking shape

However the how high they press and how directly they attack can vary depending on the game, similarly to the way that you identify formations changing.

I am still playing FM2018 so I am able to use Team Shape so for me I would be setting my formation and using lots of Support duties to create that collective playing style and a Structured team shape to create that organisation (rather than giving individual freedom in more fluid shape). Then use different team mentalities to adapt the pressing intensity and directness on a game by game basis.

My comments are more broadly related to the likes of Nagelsmann, Tuchel, Rose, Favre and co. rather than the Red Bull style (which you seem to have nailed).

I love the 4-2-4 shape by the way did you go for 2 centre forwards and 2 inside forwards?

[Silver Sweeper]

On 20/05/2021 at 08:41, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I really enjoyed reading this thread; particularly the use of video and the match engine screenshots. Well done and thank you for sharing! 

Like many, I have become increasingly fascinated by the 'German school' of managers currently dominating football. I'm in East Africa at the moment and there's a lot of German football shown on TV due to a football-mad population and it's a really interesting league.

Previously I had thought that the league was 'press, press, press', but there is far more too it than that. Sides do certainly press and it's extremely well organised but not necessarily high all of the time.

In the same way you identify formations being flexible, I am noticing that the playing style for someone like Nagelsman for example is more flexible than for say Klopp or Guardiola.

Firstly, thank you I appreciate the positive feedback. 

Unfortunately, I no longer have a subscription to BT Sport so I don't get to watch as much German football as I'd like, but I do find the evolution of the German game over the past twenty years really interesting.  It seems like the national footballing identify has collectively moved away from disciplined sweeper systems of the late eighties and early nineties; from employing three at the back and rigid man-marking, to take on a more innovative approach generally played at a higher tempo with pressing as one of it's core values.

Ralf Rangnick was one of the managers that I looked to for inspiration when developing this tactical style.  He is considered one of the forefathers of modern German football, as well as highly instrumental in developing the Red Bull philosophy.  I too find Nagelsman's approach fascinating and I'm taking a keen interest in following his career - his next season, the first at Bayern, promises to be an exciting one.

This Guardian article by Jonathan Wilson is a short but interesting read about the evolution of the German game and it's part in shaping the 'modern game.'   It does, in part, mention the affect the pandemic had on 'pressing' sides whose approach relies on regular training sessions focussed on organised and repetitive functions.  It's fair to say that structured patterns and triggers are at the heart of pressing and (understandably) Football Manager finds it hard to replicate all of these concepts.

I have a lot of love for the Football Manager match engine but I do see the pressing game as one of it's limitations.  Pressing in football Manager is an approximation, it is mostly ball oriented and any flexibility (in application) is limited to the depth of the press, its intensity and the number of players involved.  What I've tried to do is translate some of the key ideas behind a particular style into the 'language' of Football Manager, and I think you've pretty much nailed those key ideas in your post...

On 20/05/2021 at 08:41, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I notice some principles are pretty constant, such as:

• Very collective, well-organised defensive shape
• Often building from the back but in a more direct way than other leagues
• Structured well-organised attacking shape

 

On 20/05/2021 at 08:41, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I am still playing FM2018 so I am able to use Team Shape so for me I would be setting my formation and using lots of Support duties to create that collective playing style and a Structured team shape to create that organisation (rather than giving individual freedom in more fluid shape). Then use different team mentalities to adapt the pressing intensity and directness on a game by game basis.

My comments are more broadly related to the likes of Nagelsmann, Tuchel, Rose, Favre and co. rather than the Red Bull style (which you seem to have nailed).

I love the 4-2-4 shape by the way did you go for 2 centre forwards and 2 inside forwards?

I think balancing duties with shape in that way makes a lot of sense, and in FM21 I've certainly used mentality to help manage the intensity of the team's pressing and attack.  I guess the biggest difference between FM18 and FM21 has been the introduction of the defensive line and the line of engagement; these help to define a team's compactness and to determine the depth of the press.  For example, it may be easier in the latest iteration of the game to stick to a higher mentality yet lower the line of engagement?

I genuinely haven't used the 4-2-4 in Football Manager for several years but I've got to sat it's brought me a lot of joy - almost every foray into attack feels like it could end in a goal!  The front four has fluctuated but often consists of a staggered front two (i.e. one on an attack duty, one on support) and two inverting wingers/forwards - or sometimes a playmaker coming inside.

For those interested, this was how I set up in my last match (a 5-0 win against Hoffenheim), however, I want to stress this is not designed to be a 'plug and play' tactic (please read the opening post!)...

 

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Silver Sweeper

[halfspace3000]

any more updates on how this is going?

[Silver Sweeper]

On 27/05/2021 at 21:57, halfspace3000 said:

any more updates on how this is going?

Thanks for your interest, however, the thread/topic was designed to be a one-off analysis of the tactical principles I've been applying lately and not a 'series' following the progress of my save.  I've considered expanding on how I prepare for games, how I analyse my opponent and then tweak the strategy - but this feels more suited to a thread of its own.  In truth, I can't see me adding any more to the original post here but I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

I've also been thinking of starting a save in which I'll attempt to implement these principles at a team ill-suited to this style of play.  I'm interested to see if I can imbed a philosophy at a club the way the Red Bull corporation have at Salzburg and Leipzig.  If I do start this save, and decide to post about it, then this will be in the Careers Update forum (and I'll add a link here).

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Silver Sweeper

[Captain Cabinets]

On 29/05/2021 at 08:33, Silver Sweeper said:

 In truth, I can't see me adding any more to the original post here but I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

Thanks for the write-up SS, really interesting look at the principles of pressing. I know this isn't intended to be plug&play but I was wondering about what kind of PIs you would use for this style as it's an area that I find tough to navigate - e.g. if we're compact on defence should I ask my wide players to sit narrower, or is that overkill? Same with an SV type ball carrier/creative player, should he run with the ball more and play more risky passes? Cheers!

[Silver Sweeper]

5 hours ago, Captain Cabinets said:

Thanks for the write-up SS, really interesting look at the principles of pressing. I know this isn't intended to be plug&play but I was wondering about what kind of PIs you would use for this style as it's an area that I find tough to navigate - e.g. if we're compact on defence should I ask my wide players to sit narrower, or is that overkill? Same with an SV type ball carrier/creative player, should he run with the ball more and play more risky passes? Cheers!

To be honest, I rarely use player instructions preferring to shape my tactics with roles and duties.  For example,  if I'm thinking about maintaining a structured defence then I'll likely be more conservative with my choice of roles/duties (particularly if I'm playing at a higher mentality).  If I want a vertically compact defence then I'll raise my defensive line or, for a horizontally compact defence, I'll use the 'force opposition wide' team instruction.

I might use the odd PI if I want to emphasise, or dial down, a particular aspect of a player's performance but I tend to do this in game as a reaction to how the play is unfolding.  In truth, I find it too easy to 'forget' which PI's are being used!

My advice would be don't overthink it, start with a simple idea and and identify the key instructions - for example, with RBL I knew I wanted to play vertically and, to me, this meant employing a higher tempo and using a 'top heavy' formation so I would have players up field for those rapid transitions.  Select the roles/duties around the defensive and attacking shapes that you're hoping to achieve and then sit back and watch some games.  Now, ask yourself how close are you to the basic tactical idea?  Once you're happy with the 'foundation' make other changes as necessary - for example raising, or lowering, the DL and LoE; or experimenting with your pressing intensity.

I think too many FM-er's watch YouTube videos on real world tactics and then attempt to emulate this in the game by taking the analysis too literally, adding a cacophony of instructions.  Sometimes less is more

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Silver Sweeper said:

I think too many FM-er's watch YouTube videos on real world tactics and then attempt to emulate this in the game by taking the analysis too literally, adding a cacophony of instructions.  Sometimes less is more

 

[halfspace3000]

just interested to know , how would you set a up a 4231 DM wide with this philosophy?

Edited June 12, 2021 by halfspace3000

[davidbarros2]

2 horas atrás, halfspace3000 disse:

just interested to know , how would you set a up a 4231 DM wide with this philosophy?

Picking this up and also... in what circunstances would you play the 4231 and/or the 4222?

[Djeon36]

Just wondering how does your team look like in a 4231 formation? I'm especially curious what role your CAM is?

[Keyzer Soze]

On 19/10/2021 at 01:09, Djeon36 said:

Just wondering how does your team look like in a 4231 formation? I'm especially curious what role your CAM is?

Thinking about this as well.

I first thought would be a AM with support duty. Perhaps adding PI's to take more risky and move into channels.

[Djeon36]

I originally had AP on attack but changed it to support and added the PI's of roam around more and move into channels. Basically trying to have a F9 as a CAM 

[Djeon36]

On 20/10/2021 at 09:01, Keyzer Soze said:

Thinking about this as well.

I first thought would be a AM with support duty. Perhaps adding PI's to take more risky and move into channels.

I originally had AP on attack but changed it to support and added the PI's of roam around more and move into channels. Basically trying to have a F9 as a CAM 

[davehibb]

12 hours ago, Djeon36 said:

I originally had AP on attack but changed it to support and added the PI's of roam around more and move into channels. Basically trying to have a F9 as a CAM 

Has that been working as desired?

[Keyzer Soze]

Hi,

Congrats to @Silver Sweeper. Great OP and very good ideas.

i took your ideas, in particulary the team instructions that you shared for the win against Hoffenheim and adapted to a new save i was playing, where i want to play with the 4231 DM Wide Formation.

I end up with this:

 

DLF(a)

IW(s)        AMC(s)        IW(a)

DM(d)        VOL(s)

WB(a)    CD(d)    CD(co)    FB(s)

G(d)

Team Instructions:

In Possession: Pass into space, POOD, Higher Tempo, Narrow

In Transition: Take Short kicks, Distribute do centerbacks, counter, counter press

Out of possession: Force opposition outside, higher D-Line, higher LOE, Extremely Urgent Pressing, Prevent GK Distribution.

 

I also added some players Instructions:

VOL(s): take more risk

AMC(s): roam from position, take more risk

I'm starting now second season, and the first went really well. Played with Benfica and won the league, league cup, and reach the portuguese cup final (lost to Porto). 

In champions league, reached semi-finals (lost to Barcelona) winning against teams like Liverpool and Bayern.

 

The changes i'm made were related with the F9-AMC change that i made. Because of that i've dediced to go a little bit wider to give a little more space for the wide players to cut in.

But the basics elements are there: the high and urgent pressing, the counter press and quick attacks.

Against bigger teams, i low mentality to standard, and drop the LOE to standard and the prevent gk distribution instruction. I also take the pass into space instructions if i'm seeing to many lost passes. Really solid in defence.

 

For some reason, that i'm still trying to figure out, my right FB(s) and my left IW(s) are always the players with lower ratings. Any idea why?

Anyway, it's been a very good save. Thank you for the inspiration!

 

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Keyzer Soze

[TheGhostofPaulLambert]

3 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

Hi,

Congrats to @Silver Sweeper. Great OP and very good ideas.

i took your ideas, in particulary the team instructions that you shared for the win against Hoffenheim and adapted to a new save i was playing, where i want to play with the 4231 DM Wide Formation.

I end up with this:

 

DLF(a)

IW(s)        AMC(s)        IW(a)

DM(d)        VOL(s)

WB(a)    CD(d)    CD(co)    FB(s)

G(d)

Team Instructions:

In Possession: Pass into space, POOD, Higher Tempo, Narrow

In Transition: Take Short kicks, Distribute do centerbacks, counter, counter press

Out of possession: Force opposition outside, higher D-Line, higher LOE, Extremely Urgent Pressing, Prevent GK Distribution.

 

I also added some players Instructions:

VOL(s): take more risk

AMC(s): roam from position, take more risk

I'm starting now second season, and the first went really well. Played with Benfica and won the league, league cup, and reach the portuguese cup final (lost to Porto). 

In champions league, reached semi-finals (lost to Barcelona) winning against teams like Liverpool and Bayern.

 

The changes i'm made were related with the F9-AMC change that i made. Because of that i've dediced to go a little bit wider to give a little more space for the wide players to cut in.

But the basics elements are there: the high and urgent pressing, the counter press and quick attacks.

Against bigger teams, i low mentality to standard, and drop the LOE to standard and the prevent gk distribution instruction. I also take the pass into space instructions if i'm seeing to many lost passes. Really solid in defence.

 

For some reason, that i'm still trying to figure out, my right FB(s) and my left IW(s) are always the players with lower ratings. Any idea why?

Anyway, it's been a very good save. Thank you for the inspiration!

 

 

Big fan of this. Looks very similar to a shape I'm trying to out together on my Villa save.

 

How you finding it on positive? I only ask as there's an excellent Cleon thread about the 4231 DM where he talks about how he'd go no higher than Balanced so I've been floating between both mentalities without coming up with an answer.

[Keyzer Soze]

1 hour ago, TheGhostofPaulLambert said:

Big fan of this. Looks very similar to a shape I'm trying to out together on my Villa save.

 

How you finding it on positive? I only ask as there's an excellent Cleon thread about the 4231 DM where he talks about how he'd go no higher than Balanced so I've been floating between both mentalities without coming up with an answer.

I know that thread from @Cleon, and I also read it recently.

I've try my tactic with a balanced mentality, and in fact I use balanced mentality against bigger teams like I said in my post, but for the large majority of the games, and because I play with a big team in Portugal, Ive came to the conclusion that positive mentality suits better the way I want to play. 

In particularly the aggressive pressing from the front 4 players and the quick transition to attack work better imo with a positive mentality. 

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, TheGhostofPaulLambert said:

Big fan of this. Looks very similar to a shape I'm trying to out together on my Villa save.

 

How you finding it on positive? I only ask as there's an excellent Cleon thread about the 4231 DM where he talks about how he'd go no higher than Balanced so I've been floating between both mentalities without coming up with an answer.

I never go above balance with top heavy formation, it doesn't really make sense to how I play as the players are already too high for my liking. I'd rather have faster transitions and have my attacking players run into space. On higher/aggressive mentalities this space doesn't really exist. That's why I play on lower mentalities so there is more space and it's less congested in and around the box. It's also the way to be more attacking imo by being less aggressive, it's more efficient, clinical etc.

But it all comes down to what you're trying to create and how you play. What are you trying to achieve?

[TheGhostofPaulLambert]

3 hours ago, Cleon said:

I never go above balance with top heavy formation, it doesn't really make sense to how I play as the players are already too high for my liking. I'd rather have faster transitions and have my attacking players run into space. On higher/aggressive mentalities this space doesn't really exist. That's why I play on lower mentalities so there is more space and it's less congested in and around the box. It's also the way to be more attacking imo by being less aggressive, it's more efficient, clinical etc.

But it all comes down to what you're trying to create and how you play. What are you trying to achieve?

Makes perfect sense. I'm always trying to create fast transitions and running with the ball.i just can't help it. But I know full well that I should opt for less top heavy formations to achieve that. It's just hard to ween myself off those fancy roles and the nice on screen symmetry of top heavy formations. 

 

Stupid I know 🤣

[TheGhostofPaulLambert]

BTW it's great to have you back round these parts @Cleon