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Posted (edited)

Hi All,

Earlier this week I fired up my save and played an away match against high-flying Valencia. My team has been slow out of the blocks this season, but we're now starting to find some real momentum and  we headed into the game with good form. It was set to be a key game, with both teams looking very strong. I was looking forward to it, as it is a real opportunity to measure how good my side and tactic is.

Unfortunately the game didn't go to plan and we lost 7-2. The result came out of nowhere and we got complete destroyed. I was so annoyed, that I immediately closed the game and vowed to never play again. :kriss:

A few days have passed and I've calmed down and decided to grow up. I had some free-time today, so thought I'd fire back-up the save and try to understand what went wrong. Now annoyingly I lost the PKM as I raged quit. So I decided to replay the game again with the same system and see if the result played out again in the same way.

Thankfully the game played out in a similar fashion, however this time we managed to grab a 4-4 draw. The issues we had were exactly the same, so I wanted to share with this forum and see if I could get some guidance on what went wrong for me and what I could of done to fix it. I made no changes in the game deliberately and they played the same system for 90% of the game.

 

Warning: I AM BAD AT ANALYSIS

 

Match Summary:

1103815300_Screenshot2021-05-08at15_19_10.thumb.png.76bc20d87c98b3a924c090846de206b9.png

 

If it wasn't for my goalkeeper Ter Stegen, this would of been another humiliating defeat for us! They created a lot of opportunities and we really got away with it. Also my team were very clinical - Martinez and Griezmann in particular.

 

Match Stats:

2058396310_Screenshot2021-05-08at15_19_27.thumb.png.90cb9e464fe3c2cb0a7012723e67d7db.png

 

As you can see, they came up top in every department. My pass completion was particularly poor and we did give away the ball needlessly on a lot of occasions I noticed. (This is obviously due to a tactical issue in the match)

 

My System:

1857668707_Screenshot2021-05-08at15_36_27.png.2afe02230533343ad20180603db17bcc.png

 

In short, I want to have a patient game-plan. I try to build and overload down the right hand side and the left hand side is more direct. Essentially both the AMR and AMC are more creative roles (both are asked to roam from position and take more risks), as opposed to the AML and ST who are more direct. (I sometimes get the AMR and AMC to swap positions). Now I know it's not the perfect system, but has worked pretty well so far and I feel it's fairly balanced. 

Also this is my AWAY tactic that I use when playing away at a Big team - which means I employ the following changes to the main tactic, to try and make us a little bit more compact:

- I've employ a split block (rather than the whole team pressing more) - so essentially front four all have close down more.

- I have drop the Defensive Line and Line of Engagement to Higher (from Much Higher).

- Left Fullback is changed to a FB (s) from a WB (s)

- Drop 'Work Ball into Box' and Add 'Pass into Space' to try and exploit space that is likely given from an aggressive opponent.

 

This is how Valencia lined up:

344733634_Screenshot2021-05-08at15_52_26.thumb.png.b96e2f4ba2e83ba0d6a7063dcb06e283.png

 

564132278_Screenshot2021-05-08at15_53_22.thumb.png.2b520727b3f246276252838c6d13e5d6.png

So as you can see they had a lot of bodies in the middle of the pitch with their full backs offering the width for them.

Key points

- They out number me 4 v 3 in central midfield. This goes to 5 v 3 when Gomez drops deeper in a Target Man role. They overloaded us in the middle.

- In addition I have no DMC. So the very talented Lee Kang-In isn't picked up very often.

- This also meant that they had a 3 v 2 against my centre backs, with Lee Kang-In playing as a Shadow Striker.

- I use 'play narrower' to keep my players closer together and help with retaining possession. However against a narrow formation, this may of been counter productive.

- The wider MCs (Munsah and Soler) would often naturally play in the channels (pic below). It meant that either a) my wingers (AML and AMR) had to mark or press them, which in turn would leave their fullbacks unmarked or b) my AMC or CMs had to mark or press, which left big holes in the middle. They found space too easily.

878971829_Screenshot2021-05-08at16_02_54.thumb.png.0e151eb6939f49ee1ae61ab492308fc6.png

 

Look at Kang-In (no.21) pinning my CB Garcia (no.4)! Horrid to see and very dangerous. Once Gomez (no.22) comes into the box, he'll be unmarked.

---

Anyway, really keen to see if you guys can help break it down for me, so that I can learn for the future!

Unfortunately I cant work out how to share the PKM.

Thanks

Edited by Luizinho
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I’m not an expert but I would say your TIs are a little too aggressive (like the high line), especially going away to a strong side playing with effectively 3 up front. Also you said you play Pass Into Space to take advantage of an aggressive opponent but you also play Much Shorter Passing and Lower Tempo? To me that’s a bit contradictory. Along with Fairly Narrow it could be overkill and perhaps playing into their hands.
 

I think you’ve identified some of the issues yourself, like being outnumbered in midfield. I would be tempted to drop Busquets into the DM strata as a Half Back maybe, which can help you beat their high press (I’m assuming they pressed high). You could then put Coutinho alongside De Jong in a 4-3-3 to provide more balance. 
 

Another thing I’ve noticed in general, and only quite recently, is how much of an effect mentalities actually have to general risk taking. I always thought I had to play on Positive to play a patient possession game, but I actually think it’s the other way around. Sure it can be done, but I think you would have more control if you dropped your mentality to Balanced or even Cautious. Alternatively you could keep it on Positive but maybe put passing, tempo, width close to or on default for a more direct approach to really exploit space.
 

Like I said I’m no expert but these are a few things I’ve learned from my own experiences, I’m sure you will get some more helpful feedback. And don’t give up :thup: 

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20 minutes ago, Fantasista10 said:

I’m not an expert but I would say your TIs are a little too aggressive (like the high line), especially going away to a strong side playing with effectively 3 up front. 

I'm really looking to embody the Barca identity/DNA by using a possession style. Possession is big objective for me during a match. Therefore by employing an aggressive defensive strategy (high line/high press), I can win the ball quickly (very generic strategy). For these difficult games, I still want to play in a similar way. So I thought reducing both Defensive Line and Line of Engagement by one notch, would make me slightly more cautious, but not impact the strategy of winning the ball back.

 

35 minutes ago, Fantasista10 said:

Also you said you play Pass Into Space to take advantage of an aggressive opponent but you also play Much Shorter Passing and Lower Tempo? To me that’s a bit contradictory.

Similar to my above comment, but I still want to play a possession focused style. However in these difficult games, if the opportunity to play a riskier pass (into space) presents itself, then I want to encourage my players to do it. I have some great passers in my team and two direct attackers (runners) - so the opportunities should present themselves. Similar in a way to how Tuchel's Chelsea play against Man City. They still play a possession focused style, but will look for Werner and Mount/Pulisic when it's on. Is my theory right here?

45 minutes ago, Fantasista10 said:

Along with Fairly Narrow it could be overkill and perhaps playing into their hands.

Yes I agree. It didn't make sense in this scenario. Also I have two 'narrow' forwards, so for my system it might be overkill.

 

47 minutes ago, Fantasista10 said:

I think you’ve identified some of the issues yourself, like being outnumbered in midfield. I would be tempted to drop Busquets into the DM strata as a Half Back maybe, which can help you beat their high press (I’m assuming they pressed high). You could then put Coutinho alongside De Jong in a 4-3-3 to provide more balance. 

Thanks - this makes sense. A 4-2-3-1 is always going to be risky formation. A DM will help give me more solidity and also help against teams with a DMC (give me an extra body)

 

51 minutes ago, Fantasista10 said:

Another thing I’ve noticed in general, and only quite recently, is how much of an effect mentalities actually have to general risk taking. I always thought I had to play on Positive to play a patient possession game, but I actually think it’s the other way around. Sure it can be done, but I think you would have more control if you dropped your mentality to Balanced or even Cautious. Alternatively you could keep it on Positive but maybe put passing, tempo, width close to or on default for a more direct approach to really exploit space.

Something I've always struggled with. Although I have found (with limited experience) that lower mentality make my defenders panic more. They seem to clear the ball if they're under pressure, rather than try to play their way out of difficult situations. Maybe switching to 'Balanced' might help be more secure in these games - rather than my players trying to play stupid passes when they're not necessary (and making issues for ourselves).

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Think your giving up a couple of mismatches here that are giving them a way to win

Firstly lining Garcia up against Maxi Gomez not sure how he has developed in your game but from the default database you are giving up 5 points in Heading, 4 points in Jumping Reach and 4 points in Strength plus Gomez's 17 off the ball vs Garcia's 13 in Marking means 9/10 if the ball is in the air Gomez is going to win it and will probably wind up on target. Switching CB sides will reduce this deficit a lot.

2nd Gaya vs Messi when Messi is on the ball that's a hell of a match up but going the other way Messi has low work rate and Gaya is faster meaning Messi isn't going to track back successfully or even attempt it as often as you would want. The next player Gaya should run into is Busquets however there are 2 problems here firstly Busquets has the trait stay back at all times so he will won't engage as quickly as you would hope, and secondly you have his role as CM on Defend meaning he is instructed to hold position therefore he won't move out to the flank at all so Gaya has complete free reign. Same issue on the other side with De Jong although Griezman should backtrack more

On a related note you tell your team to counter press in transition but have both CMs and CBs with roles that instruct them to hold position meaning they are given conflicting instructions and in my opinion they will most likely revert to player instructions and try to keep shape instead. Might be worth experimenting with roles here.

Might be time to also consider moving Messi to AMC and as an Enganche all he has to do is stand there and play killer balls all game long.

 

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4 hours ago, Luizinho said:

I'm really looking to embody the Barca identity/DNA by using a possession style

If you want a possession style, then you first need to set up your roles and duties in a possession-friendly manner. In that respect, the most problematic is the role of your left back. Another potentially problematic role is the AF role for your lone striker.

In terms of in-possession instructions, you have both tactical overkill and contradiction.

And your out-of-possession TIs are more aggressive than would be advisable.

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12 hours ago, Luizinho said:

My System:

1857668707_Screenshot2021-05-08at15_36_27.png.2afe02230533343ad20180603db17bcc.png

 

 

I would use the 4-2-3-1DM Wide formation, as it allows you to be more aggressive with you wingbacks. Especially when playing with an IF you need someone to attack the flank, as the IF is always looking for the inside. He is not like the IW who is staying wide to keep the width and only cuts inside when he has the ball.

Also you have no one up the pitch with roaming movement and no one granted creative freedom (except the AP). So I would either change roles to more Roaming / creative ones or add be more expressive TI. 

those changes should emphasis your attacking play. 

 

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9 hours ago, dactz said:

Think your giving up a couple of mismatches here that are giving them a way to win

Firstly lining Garcia up against Maxi Gomez not sure how he has developed in your game but from the default database you are giving up 5 points in Heading, 4 points in Jumping Reach and 4 points in Strength plus Gomez's 17 off the ball vs Garcia's 13 in Marking means 9/10 if the ball is in the air Gomez is going to win it and will probably wind up on target. Switching CB sides will reduce this deficit a lot.

2nd Gaya vs Messi when Messi is on the ball that's a hell of a match up but going the other way Messi has low work rate and Gaya is faster meaning Messi isn't going to track back successfully or even attempt it as often as you would want.

This is a really good point regarding personal - I'll definitely pay more attention to this. 

 

9 hours ago, dactz said:

The next player Gaya should run into is Busquets however there are 2 problems here firstly Busquets has the trait stay back at all times so he will won't engage as quickly as you would hope, and secondly you have his role as CM on Defend meaning he is instructed to hold position therefore he won't move out to the flank at all so Gaya has complete free reign. Same issue on the other side with De Jong although Griezman should backtrack more

Doesn't 'hold position' only apply when we have the ball? Both MCs are instructed to sit and be a double pivot when in possession.  His pressing intensity is at 33%.

 

1187701546_Screenshot2021-05-09at08_34_00.png.6de70bcfafa0e0c72ed4356f1bfcc95b.png

 

9 hours ago, dactz said:

On a related note you tell your team to counter press in transition but have both CMs and CBs with roles that instruct them to hold position meaning they are given conflicting instructions and in my opinion they will most likely revert to player instructions and try to keep shape instead. Might be worth experimenting with roles here.

I think counter-press overrules the hold position PI? Again it's an 'in possession' instruction. 

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6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

If you want a possession style, then you first need to set up your roles and duties in a possession-friendly manner. In that respect, the most problematic is the role of your left back. Another potentially problematic role is the AF role for your lone striker.

Yeah I agree the regarding the 'Fullback' role. I think the combination can work, but not in terms of what I'm looking to do.

The AF is there to both keep the defensive line honest (pin them back) and to create space for both the AMC and AMR. He does still get involved with the build-up play and Martinez also has the 'Comes Deep TO Get Ball' PPM - so it creates some nice variation.

This is his form FYG

1591727647_Screenshot2021-05-09at08_43_43.thumb.png.82f5b4e924bf4fda3d1c3eca85f5158b.png

 

6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In terms of in-possession instructions, you have both tactical overkill and contradiction.

And your out-of-possession TIs are more aggressive than would be advisable.

Could you elaborate?

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Posted (edited)

Yes,  Hold Position is an in-possession instruction and such players will counter press still.

In the defensive phase, pressing intensity will in part dictate how willing a player is to leave his position to close down opposition players.

Edited by NotSoSpecialOne
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2 hours ago, Luizinho said:

Doesn't 'hold position' only apply when we have the ball? Both MCs are instructed to sit and be a double pivot when in possession.  His pressing intensity is at 33%.

 

I think counter-press overrules the hold position PI? Again it's an 'in possession' instruction. 

I have no data to back this up but it certainly feels like I've conceeded less in transition since I moved my CBs to Cover and Stopper rather than being on defend maybe there is another reason for this other than the role change.

I think Busquets trait definately did impact the game looking at average positions Musah is so much further forward than Soler I can't say I know Musah well but I would be surprised if they would give him a more attacking role than Soler

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5 hours ago, Luizinho said:
12 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In terms of in-possession instructions, you have both tactical overkill and contradiction.

And your out-of-possession TIs are more aggressive than would be advisable.

Could you elaborate?

Overkill - too many possession-friendly instructions at once.

Contradiction - all those possession-friendly TIs versus an anti-possession TI called "pass into space"

Regarding the defensive TIs - an aggressive instruction such as Prevent GKD paired with lower than optimal compactness within a top-heavy formation with no DM.

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4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Contradiction - all those possession-friendly TIs versus an anti-possession TI called "pass into space"

Just out of interest, why do you consider "pass into space" an anti-possession TI? Unless players are instructed to make riskier passes or on higher mentalities which allow higher risks anyway, In football manager passes are primarily played into feet, no matter of their "directness".  The risk distribution of passes is underlying two principles of football. 1.) the lenght of a pass where shorter passes are on the lower risk end and direct passes which are more risky. 2.) wether they are played into feet or into space. In terms of shorter passing one could conclude, that trying to pass into space (higher risk) can perfectly fit shorter passes (lower risk) as it balances out the overall risk of your passing style with it being more defined and without loosing the penetration you need from your passing game.

Also one might argue theres is no space to play into anyway when facing deep defending teams. Often tho only a tiny gap is enough to stick through the ball and if your team has overall good vision, off the ball movement, passing and anticipation i dont see it not work. And you can see that both in FM and IRL matches. 

And with only 3 out of 7 players instructed to pass into space in the OP's tactic who are supporting the attack and a positive mentality, i cant see an overkill of passing into space either.

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2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Just out of interest, why do you consider "pass into space" an anti-possession TI?

I think it should be obvious. Possession-oriented football means you want to keep/retain possession of the ball over an extended period of time until a good opportunity occurs for a potential defense-splitting pass or anything that can produce a goal-scoring chance. Such decisive final passes are usually played by a couple of most creative midfield or attacking players in the final stage of attacking actions. But until such opportunity occurs, players are looking to play low-risk passes to feet of one another, precisely because the main goal is to keep the ball and patiently wait for the "moment of magic". 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Possession-oriented football means you want to keep/retain possession of the ball over an extended period of time until a good opportunity occurs for a potential defense-splitting pass or anything that can produce a goal-scoring chance.

Thats actually true, but is that really a passing thing? Passing is primarily about the distance and its risk (feet vs. space). I think its more a tempo thing to wait patiently. Also pass into space doesnt mean to always pass into space, but as you said waiting for the potential opportunity and then encouraging your players to more likely pass into spacen than into feet.

17 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Such decisive final passes are usually played by a couple of most creative midfield or attacking players in the final stage of attacking actions.

Well, I guess that depends on the capability of players, right? While it can be a good choice to only allow a few players to make such risky passes, you could also allow all of your players to do so (what barcas players would defenitly be capable of)

Im not completely into the ME mechanics, but for my liking you might be a little bit too strict about this, as i always had good use of this TI in combination with short passing / possession friendly tactics.

Edited by CARRERA
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I don't want to derail the OP's thread by any further discussion about the pass into space TI (or whatever), so let's simply agree to disagree and get back to the topic. Plus, I never argue with anybody over their tactical views or understanding of tactics in general. You have your opinion, I have mine, which is perfectly okay :thup:

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@Luizinho

Some things I don't like about your tactic just by looking at roles and duties and what you want from your team:

1. Messi as a Support player. I don't think I need to go into a lot of detail here. He's your main creator, give him an attack duty.

2. Speaking of duties and creators: you say you want AMR and AMC as main creators. Adding to 1., AP-S is a "circulation-first" playmaker. He passes the ball to other support players (check the description)

3. WB and IW are crossers. So you are crossing to Griezmann and Lautaro. Even though you have low crosses on, I don't know if that's the best option

4. As someone already said: be careful with pairings mainly close to goal. Maxi vs Eric is a problem, Maxi vs Eric when Eric is marking their CAM, even without any other problem might get you 1-2 goals suffered at least.

5. Possession tactic with 2 players with hold position... Don't think it's helpful. You need movement to create passing lines.

6. BPDs are tricky. They give you quality passing, but they might hurt a possession style of play. They'll play more difficult passes. I usually only use one on the opposite side to the playmaker.

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I would have just removed pass into space and converted the wingback to a fullback if i was gonna use the Overlap. Furthermore with that role there would be a higher chance that he plays the early cross to the IF(A). I would also tell that fb on the right to focus his crosses to the far post area.  AP in the middle doesn't do you any good, you are depending a lot on moving the ball about so its not a good idea to do pass into space. You already have so many roles doing risky passes you don't need to tell more players to do it.

Pass into space is turning over your possession, regardless of how good your players are because that system is playing with a DM and you are slowing down the buildup in the DM's area by virtue of using that role. Even if you changed it to something else it won't help much. 

 

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On 10/05/2021 at 22:53, lfds89 said:

3. WB and IW are crossers. So you are crossing to Griezmann and Lautaro. Even though you have low crosses on, I don't know if that's the best option

He's trying to build up possession to try and score goals, so low crosses helps with cutbacks. Its a good option. However the use of the wingback is questionable, he doesn't just cross, he also dribbles with the ball taking players on and sometimes reaching cul-de-sacs without crossing options. So if he wanted to move a team around and ping the opposite flank with crosses he can go wider play with a fullback and tell him to cross far post.

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41 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

He's trying to build up possession to try and score goals, so low crosses helps with cutbacks. Its a good option. However the use of the wingback is questionable, he doesn't just cross, he also dribbles with the ball taking players on and sometimes reaching cul-de-sacs without crossing options. So if he wanted to move a team around and ping the opposite flank with crosses he can go wider play with a fullback and tell him to cross far post.

Would using inverted wingbacks work here? They cut inside to play shorter passes infield rather than chuck in wasteful crosses.

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1 hour ago, phnompenhandy said:

Would using inverted wingbacks work here? They cut inside to play shorter passes infield rather than chuck in wasteful crosses.

It would help with possession but they will create congestion in the middle I would recommend turning on AM to a winger in that case. 

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Posted (edited)

Sorry, I've been pretty slammed with work recently! Thanks for the feedback, getting round to replying.

 

On 10/05/2021 at 15:53, lfds89 said:

@Luizinho

Some things I don't like about your tactic just by looking at roles and duties and what you want from your team:

1. Messi as a Support player. I don't think I need to go into a lot of detail here. He's your main creator, give him an attack duty.

2. Speaking of duties and creators: you say you want AMR and AMC as main creators. Adding to 1., AP-S is a "circulation-first" playmaker. He passes the ball to other support players (check the description)

Found these two points interesting.

1. I'd have to disagree. The system is designed for him to play in the hole, with two aggressive options ahead of him in an IF (A) and an AF (A). I feel that giving him an attack duty would potentially make the final third a bit too cluttered. There have been games when I've used an AP (A) and it's worked well. At time I want him to push a little ahead and commit an extra body forward.  However more often than not, I want him to drop and combine with the double pivot to almost create an overload in the middle.

2. Not sure I know what you mean this point. An AP (S) will only pass to players on support duty? Ive seen him supply countless balls to either the IF (A), AF (A) and the WB (S) overlapping on the right. Messi is having an amazing season for me in the role (he sometimes plays out on the right). He has loads of space in the middle to float about. I already have two aggressive 'scorers' in my team (IF (A) and AF (A).

Edited by Luizinho
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Posted (edited)
On 12/05/2021 at 08:25, Rashidi said:

I would have just removed pass into space and converted the wingback to a fullback if i was gonna use the Overlap.

So is my logic flawed around using the 'pass into space' instruction (as below)?

On 08/05/2021 at 16:19, Luizinho said:

Drop 'Work Ball into Box' and Add 'Pass into Space' to try and exploit space that is likely given from an aggressive opponent.

The plan is to play defensive, possession football. (I've taken on board the feedback regarding formation!). Essentially "if we have the ball, they can't hurt us" mentality, but then encouraging the players to exploit the space (when appropriate) that a stronger team will likely surrender... Does that combination work in reality? I take you point about overkill with this instruction. I assume a DLP (S), AP (S), two BPD (D) and an IW (S) with aggressive PIs is enough riskier passes...

 

 

On 12/05/2021 at 08:25, Rashidi said:

Furthermore with that role there would be a higher chance that he plays the early cross to the IF(A). I would also tell that fb on the right to focus his crosses to the far post area. AP in the middle doesn't do you any good, you are depending a lot on moving the ball about so its not a good idea to do pass into space. You already have so many roles doing risky passes you don't need to tell more players to do it.

Pass into space is turning over your possession, regardless of how good your players are because that system is playing with a DM and you are slowing down the buildup in the DM's area by virtue of using that role. Even if you changed it to something else it won't help much. 

Ive always struggled with both duties and roles for wide players in FM. I want the the right full-back to get up and past my IW (S), once the space has been made. Essentially I want him to be the direct runner on the right side of the pitch. We should over load in the middle/right part of the pitch with four players (CM (D), DLP (S), AP (S) and IW (S), which 'should' drag the opponents in. Once we have done so, the WB (S) should then be able to exploit the space. I felt a WB (A) would be high up the pitch too early and FB (S) is not dynamic enough to aggressively attack the space with regularity. I did think about adding 'Exploit the middle' or 'exploit the right' to help with this, but felt it would make me too predictable.

Also I have both the WB (S) and IW (S) crossing far post. :D (got something right!)

 

Re. using an AP (S) in the AMC slot. I just want to check Im taking it on board correct. Because Valencia had three MCs, one of which (Wass) is playing a defensive role, meant they were restricting a lot of space there. Therefore having a playmaker right in the middle of those three was playing into their hands? Using an AMC (S) may have been more appropriate, as it would of forced the ball through the centre so much?

 

Edited by Luizinho
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Posted (edited)

This is an ultra-possession oriented system with lots of needless TIs. Attacks can be prevented frequently by opposition with such low pace and low unpredictability. But I won't explain those as others explained already. So i prefer writing about something different. Messi's role.

You use Messi as an IWs with overlap right. That TI lowers Messi's mentality from positive to balanced and decreases his risk taking about movement, passing and shooting. I don't understand why someone does something like this to one of the best attackers in football history. Sorry but 6,3 match rating for Messi can not be accepted by me.

My best bet for a player like Messi's calibre would be giving him the licence for what he wants to do on the field. This can be applied with a less PI hardcoded role i think.

So;

-If i use him on RW; İ would prefer choosing an IWa with roam from position activated.

-If i use him on CF, İ would prefer choosing an AF with roam from position activated.

-If i use him on CAM, İ would prefer choosing an AMa with roam from position activated.

-If i use him on CM, İ would prefer choosing a CMa with roam from position activated.

 

That's all i will add.

 

Edited by zabyl
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51 minutes ago, zabyl said:

This is an ultra-possession oriented system with lots of needless TIs. Attacks can be prevented frequently by opposition with such low pace and low unpredictability. But I won't explain those as others explained already. So i prefer writing about something different. Messi's role.

You use Messi as an IWs with overlap right. That TI lowers Messi's mentality from positive to balanced and decreases his risk taking about movement, passing and shooting. I don't understand why someone does something like this to one of the best attackers in football history. Sorry but 6,3 match rating for Messi can not be accepted by me.

My best bet for a player like Messi's calibre would be giving him the licence for what he wants to do on the field. This can be applied with a less PI hardcoded role i think.

So;

-If i use him on RW; İ would prefer choosing an IWa with roam from position activated.

-If i use him on CF, İ would prefer choosing an AF with roam from position activated.

-If i use him on CAM, İ would prefer choosing an AMa with roam from position activated.

-If i use him on CM, İ would prefer choosing a CMa with roam from position activated.

 

That's all i will add.

 

Thanks point taken.

Messi normally does plays in the AMC position as an AP (S) and will often have the swap position option with Coutinho at AMR. Messi been amazing for me this year - he came 2nd in world player of the year to Mbappe.

I decided to start Coutinho at AMC as he played really well the previous game. Also maybe some more room outwide for Messi considering the narrow formation.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Luizinho said:

The plan is to play defensive, possession football. (I've taken on board the feedback regarding formation!). Essentially "if we have the ball, they can't hurt us" mentality, but then encouraging the players to exploit the space (when appropriate) that a stronger team will likely surrender... Does that combination work in reality?

Well, defending with the ball and playing patiently can and does work IRL. Removing risks from your attacking play, as you did with shorter passes and work ball into box, is completely fine. Still, especially as a top side like barcelona, you want to create goal scoring opportunites at some point. Therefore you need to move both, the ball and your players, which can only happen if space is available. As you are looking for a more slowly and patient approach, the only way how space can be created is by player movement into available space to pull defenders out of their position, which requires your team to have a certain amout of players roaming from position and moving into channels when their teammates are in possession and players who make lateral dribbles or dribbles into channels when they have the ball. So when space is created, your team will be able to create a goal scoring opportunity, which can be done by crossing, simply shoot or looking for another pass to bring someone in a better scoring position. As you ask your players to make shorter passes and refrain from crosses and shots, there wont be much left, which will most likely lead into loosing the ball or trying something desperate.

So to conclude this and what you need to do this, is to re-distribute your risks to maintain your desired style of play but also break down the other team to score and win. And assuming you want your team to keep the patien approach, looking for only good scoring opportunities (WBIB), your only chance to re-distribute the risks, is to look for roles who create that kind of movement and have the creative freedom to exploit certain situation or add "Be more expressive TI" and look for players to pass into space instead of feet or adding "passing into space TI. Eventhough you might have Roles & Duties distributed well to achieve the above mentioned, you can still add those TI's to further encourage them to do so. You simply need to test whats best suitable for you and your players.

Edited by CARRERA
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

Well, defending with the ball and playing patiently can and does work IRL. Removing risks from your attacking play, as you did with shorter passes and work ball into box, is completely fine. Still, especially as a top side like barcelona, you want to create goal scoring opportunites at some point. Therefore you need to move both, the ball and your players, which can only happen if space is available. As you are looking for a more slowly and patient approach, the only way how space can be created is by player movement into available space to pull defenders out of their position, which requires your team to have a certain amout of players roaming from position and moving into channels when their teammates are in possession and players who make lateral dribbles or dribbles into channels when they have the ball. So when space is created, your team will be able to create a goal scoring opportunity, which can be done by crossing, simply shoot or looking for another pass to bring someone in a better scoring position. As you ask your players to make shorter passes and refrain from crosses and shots, there wont be much left, which will most likely lead into loosing the ball or trying something desperate.

So to conclude this and what you need to do this, is to re-distribute your risks to maintain your desired style of play but also break down the other team to score and win. And assuming you want your team to keep the patien approach, looking for only good scoring opportunities (WBIB), your only chance to re-distribute the risks, is to look for roles who create that kind of movement and have the creative freedom to exploit certain situation or add "Be more expressive TI" and look for players to pass into space instead of feet or adding "passing into space TI. Eventhough you might have Roles & Duties distributed well to achieve the above mentioned, you can still add those TI's to further encourage them to do so. You simply need to test whats best suitable for you and your players.

Appreciate the comments and understand your points :thup:.

However I'm looking for specific thoughts on the Valencia match in my opening post and how my system got exploited - so I can learn. I'm actually fairly happy with how my system is playing out in general.

456512342_Screenshot2021-05-13at18_49_49.thumb.png.756ce20a8ff50333cb1145e3483d37c3.png

 

I've been unlucky in all of the games except for the Valencia fixture, which is what the whole thread is about.

As for Messi, his stats for this year are below. I'm pretty happy considering his physical stats have dropped tremendously and he's not supposed to be my main goalscorer. Lautaro and Griemann are on 17 and 14 goals a piece. 

1080331659_Screenshot2021-05-13at18_50_18.thumb.png.26d4d586c8034ce59d517f0a8dd78ebd.png

Edited by Luizinho
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11 minutes ago, Luizinho said:

except for the Valencia fixture, which is what the whole thread is about.

haha, i guess i missed that part then. I thought you were unhappy with your tactics overall :D

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1 hour ago, Luizinho said:

I'm looking for specific thoughts on the Valencia match in my opening post and how my system got exploited - so I can learn. I'm actually fairly happy with how my system is playing out in general

An occasional bad game is quite normal and happens both in real life and FM. You cannot expect to win every single match (or never lose), no matter how good your team and/or tactic is. So I would not be concerned at all about that.

After all, you drew in an away game against Valencia, which is a really good team. Now compare that with real-life examples of world-class teams such as Man City or Liverpool losing to complete underdogs like Norwich, Watford and the like. 

If people want/expect FM to be as realistic as possible, then they need to accept negative sides of that realism as well, not just positives :brock:

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Posted (edited)

It's way more complicated than just tactic Vs tactic or roles Vs roles. It's also who Vs who (player attributes Vs attributes), preferred leg Vs leg, who has scored their first goal in match/matches before this game, who has scored plenty of goals before but now can't in this game, it's about is Valencia luckily had match preparation scheduled this week or week before against you.

Edited by Pasonen
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On 13/05/2021 at 14:45, Luizinho said:

Sorry, I've been pretty slammed with work recently! Thanks for the feedback, getting round to replying.

 

Found these two points interesting.

1. I'd have to disagree. The system is designed for him to play in the hole, with two aggressive options ahead of him in an IF (A) and an AF (A). I feel that giving him an attack duty would potentially make the final third a bit too cluttered. There have been games when I've used an AP (A) and it's worked well. At time I want him to push a little ahead and commit an extra body forward.  However more often than not, I want him to drop and combine with the double pivot to almost create an overload in the middle.

2. Not sure I know what you mean this point. An AP (S) will only pass to players on support duty? Ive seen him supply countless balls to either the IF (A), AF (A) and the WB (S) overlapping on the right. Messi is having an amazing season for me in the role (he sometimes plays out on the right). He has loads of space in the middle to float about. I already have two aggressive 'scorers' in my team (IF (A) and AF (A).

1. Players on Attack take more risks because they have a more attacking mentality. So, if I wanted Messi as a creator, I would use him on an Attack duty.

2. He will not only pass, but his primary option will be a pass to a supporting player (not sure how this is coded) - at least that's what is written on the AP-S description. Surely if you have a player with high decisions, flair, vision, composure,... he'll pick the best passing option.

I'm happy you disagree with me. By no means I want you to assume I know more about this game than you or any other user. My comments on this forum are nothing more than opinions based on my understanding of this game.

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