Need some help with this tactic

[FRIESENAAR]

I decided to do a career with SC Heerenveen and im pretty happy with how it is going l. Currently midway trough the first season and on second position with only 5 points behind Ajax and an equal amount of points with psv. As I said this isn't bad at all but there are some points of concern for me which I can't lay my finger on. My tactic is as follows: 

Im using a 433 formation and this is my main formation with some exceptions. My right back, Floranus, is injured for the season so I had to loan Hall from feyenoord to fill the gap. I also switch between the midfielders sometimes by switching Schöne and Joey Veerman or Veerman for De Jong. For Veerman's position I also use Kongolo.

My tactics are these: 

now I'm no tactical mastermind and I'm kinda shocked that I got this far with some tactic I threw together but here it is. But as I've said I've some problems with it.

My first problem is the player roles. Most of the players are playing good but there are 2 or 3 concerns. De Jong at midfield is useless most of the games. His preferred role is advanced playmaker but thats already on Schöne's role. I've tried him as a mezzala mostly throughout the season and he was kind of useless. I kinda don't want to use 2 or 3 playmakers as I'd think that's useless. What role would you give him?

My second concern with roles the striker. Henk Veerman isnt living up to my expectations as a decent goal scorer. I just can't seem to find a good role for him and I mostly want to use him as a good finisher as his first touch and finishing skills are high. How would you use him and how would you change the tactics to score more with him? 

My concerns with the tactic is that I don't score enough goals. Against the lower side teams I score maybe 1 or 2 goals and that doesn't feel like enough for the amount of chances I get (around 7-10 per game). My right wingers are my top scorers this year and that mainly because we just can't find the striker. What would you change in this tactic? I was thinking about the distribute to position" and changing that. But I could be wrong

 

I've also recently lost a game against Ajax with 2-1 and had 2 draws against AZ (1-1) and psv (0-0). Now this isn't bad if it happened in real life but I feel like I could get more out of it. Especially against Ajax I had 20 minutes of no chances while I had very attacking as mentality and high tempo.

I really want to do better against these teams as in 3 weeks I have a Dutch cup round against psv and don't really want a draw but more of a 1-0 win

Here are my recent results and table: as you can see it's not that many goals against for heerenveen but the goals scored isn't that high either. How can I change this with changing some roles and the tactic? I dont want to change the whole tactic just some things.

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by FRIESENAAR

[Experienced Defender]

You opened the topic in a wrong forum section, so I have now moved it where it belongs 

[Fatkidscantjump]

3 playmakers in the midfield + only one attack duty overall might lead you to struggle to create consistent chances.
I would change midfield roles only keeping 1 playmaker role, and add an attack duty either upfront, in the midfield, or from a fullback on attack, depending on the changes you make.
 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Fatkidscantjump

[Prolix]

• The Poacher is a rather "passive" role: he's waiting around for through balls from the playmakers or crosses from the wingers. He's risk-averse on the ball, neither passing nor running aggressively, only looking to get the ball and shoot. With no other players near him to occupy defenders, he would need extraordinarily high Off the Ball + Anticipation to get good scoring opportunities. I believe an Advanced Forward would be a more dynamic option up top if you are still looking for that player to be the focal point. 
• The center-forward is the only role you have attacking central space. The only pathway your 3 attackers have to combine is via crossing. I would try and use at least one IW/IF (or even a Raumdeuter) to get closer to your striker. I believe from the left flank would make sense, as you presently have the somewhat redundant combination W-s + WB-s on that side. Note: I try not to worry about footedness, i.e. a left footed wide player can absolutely play on the left without being assigned the Winger role.
• In a similar vein, consider whether you could use one of your "8s" to attack central space from deeper positions. Presently, both RPM and AP will sit behind the play but offer little dynamic movement to trouble the defenders. Considering the use of roles above, their passing options are likely exclusively to play the ball in front of the wingers to make crosses. Perhaps you could make use of a Mezzala, B2B, or CM-a.
• I don't believe there's a hard rule against using X number of playmaking roles, but 2 of your 3 midfielders are taking more risks, and the third is also playing with more creative freedom. This might be dangerous against more difficult opponents, and it may also stifle your options. I would consider using a more generic Defensive Midfielder role. This may liberate the overall passing options of the team a bit if the ball has been excessively circulating back through the midfield.
• The combination of Tighter Marking + More Urgent pressing is frowned upon, but your defensive solidity suggests that it's not causing you problems. 

 

What kind of changes do you tend to make in-match (if any)? With only one or two tweaks to the forward roles, it seems like you have a very stable tactic but one that might need a lot of "piloting" to maximize its effectiveness. This is actually my preferred way to play the game; I watch almost exclusively on Full Match and try to identify specific weaknesses or patterns of play that can be exploited or nullified via tactical changes. So I agree that you should make very few fundamental changes to the tactic, but feel free to be very responsive while your team is playing.

3 hours ago, FRIESENAAR said:

I've also recently lost a game against Ajax with 2-1 and had 2 draws against AZ (1-1) and psv (0-0). Now this isn't bad if it happened in real life but I feel like I could get more out of it. Especially against Ajax I had 20 minutes of no chances while I had very attacking as mentality and high tempo.

Keep in mind that simply pushing mentality higher does not necessarily mean you will be more threatening. While all players will broadly become more aggressive in all phases of play, they are still constrained by their roles, the overall combination of roles, team instructions, and formation.

In the case of your tactic as pictured, you may see some benefits from the more aggressive pressing/positioning of going to a higher mentality while trailing, but your attacking pattern will double down on getting the ball out wide to your wingers even more urgently for them to wishfully cross towards the poacher (and, optimistically, the back post cross to the opposite side winger). Your team doesn't have any other way to play besides hoping for a moment of genius between a playmaker and the poacher who is playing against the entire backline by himself. Doing the same 1 or 2 moves but faster + sooner (which is really what the higher mentality will accomplish) will only occasionally reap benefits.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Prolix

[Experienced Defender]

Given that you are 2nd in the league with Heerenveen, I assume that can be considered an overachievement. If so, I would advise against making tactical changes (unless it stops working at some point). 

[crusadertsar]

What's your rational for using a Poacher? It's not really ideal for this kind of formation.

[FRIESENAAR]

5 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

What's your rational for using a Poacher? It's not really ideal for this kind of formation.

No rational really, just trying whatever I can. I'm not that much of a tactical mastermind so I was just messing around and he even scored a hattrick the first game I used it but after that nothing 

[crusadertsar]

1 minute ago, FRIESENAAR said:

No rational really, just trying whatever I can. I'm not that much of a tactical mastermind so I was just messing around and he even scored a hattrick the first game I used it but after that nothing 

If it works it's great. But for more consistency Poachers are best used in a dual striker formation or with a AMC to feed them passes.

[CARRERA]

4 hours ago, FRIESENAAR said:

As your tactic is overall working quite well there is nothing to change yet. I can just provide some ideas to consider when time has come to make changes.

You mentioned having probelms regarding your roles, i want to take a look especially at your central midfield and how playmakers could affect your game. Right now you are set up for quicker transitions, with higher tempo and counter TI. also Wingers and poacher do rather suit that style of play. So basicly you are looking for a central midfield that is well capable of creating chances and support for your poacher, but doesnt slow down your play. A roaming palymaker is perfectly fitting those transitions, as he is always looking to collect the ball, while moving up the pitch, rather than sitting deep or between the lines. While an AP might work as well, as he generally is sitting higher up the pitch between the lines to link up play, i wouldnt really recommend a DLP, as that role is perfectly to be a focal point for your team to recycle possession.

As both DLP and AP (even with an attack duty) are primarily not look for space to penetrate and supporting your central attack and the RPM with a support duty is also involved into defensive play, you could think about a more penetrating role to provide better support for your poacher. Both CM(a) and Mezzala with either Duty could be a solution.

[FRIESENAAR]

2 hours ago, Prolix said:

• The Poacher is a rather "passive" role: he's waiting around for through balls from the playmakers or crosses from the wingers. He's risk-averse on the ball, neither passing nor running aggressively, only looking to get the ball and shoot. With no other players near him to occupy defenders, he would need extraordinarily high Off the Ball + Anticipation to get good scoring opportunities. I believe an Advanced Forward would be a more dynamic option up top if you are still looking for that player to be the focal point. 
• The center-forward is the only role you have attacking central space. The only pathway your 3 attackers have to combine is via crossing. I would try and use at least one IW/IF (or even a Raumdeuter) to get closer to your striker. I believe from the left flank would make sense, as you presently have the somewhat redundant combination W-s + WB-s on that side. Note: I try not to worry about footedness, i.e. a left footed wide player can absolutely play on the left without being assigned the Winger role.
• In a similar vein, consider whether you could use one of your "8s" to attack central space from deeper positions. Presently, both RPM and AP will sit behind the play but offer little dynamic movement to trouble the defenders. Considering the use of roles above, their passing options are likely exclusively to play the ball in front of the wingers to make crosses. Perhaps you could make use of a Mezzala, B2B, or CM-a.
• I don't believe there's a hard rule against using X number of playmaking roles, but 2 of your 3 midfielders are taking more risks, and the third is also playing with more creative freedom. This might be dangerous against more difficult opponents, and it may also stifle your options. I would consider using a more generic Defensive Midfielder role. This may liberate the overall passing options of the team a bit if the ball has been excessively circulating back through the midfield.
• The combination of Tighter Marking + More Urgent pressing is frowned upon, but your defensive solidity suggests that it's not causing you problems. 

 

What kind of changes do you tend to make in-match (if any)? With only one or two tweaks to the forward roles, it seems like you have a very stable tactic but one that might need a lot of "piloting" to maximize its effectiveness. This is actually my preferred way to play the game; I watch almost exclusively on Full Match and try to identify specific weaknesses or patterns of play that can be exploited or nullified via tactical changes. So I agree that you should make very few fundamental changes to the tactic, but feel free to be very responsive while your team is playing.

Keep in mind that simply pushing mentality higher does not necessarily mean you will be more threatening. While all players will broadly become more aggressive in all phases of play, they are still constrained by their roles, the overall combination of roles, team instructions, and formation.

In the case of your tactic as pictured, you may see some benefits from the more aggressive pressing/positioning of going to a higher mentality while trailing, but your attacking pattern will double down on getting the ball out wide to your wingers even more urgently for them to wishfully cross towards the poacher (and, optimistically, the back post cross to the opposite side winger). Your team doesn't have any other way to play besides hoping for a moment of genius between a playmaker and the poacher who is playing against the entire backline by himself. Doing the same 1 or 2 moves but faster + sooner (which is really what the higher mentality will accomplish) will only occasionally reap benefits.

So using De Jong as a Mazella on attacking and my left IW on attacking would be usefull? I don't really know what a Mazella does. Wouldn't it be kinda useless to use both a Mazella and IW on attacking on the left flank 

 

[FRIESENAAR]

3 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

As your tactic is overall working quite well there is nothing to change yet. I can just provide some ideas to consider when time has come to make changes.

You mentioned having probelms regarding your roles, i want to take a look especially at your central midfield and how playmakers could affect your game. Right now you are set up for quicker transitions, with higher tempo and counter TI. also Wingers and poacher do rather suit that style of play. So basicly you are looking for a central midfield that is well capable of creating chances and support for your poacher, but doesnt slow down your play. A roaming palymaker is perfectly fitting those transitions, as he is always looking to collect the ball, while moving up the pitch, rather than sitting deep or between the lines. While an AP might work as well, as he generally is sitting higher up the pitch between the lines to link up play, i wouldnt really recommend a DLP, as that role is perfectly to be a focal point for your team to recycle possession.

As both DLP and AP (even with an attack duty) are primarily not look for space to penetrate and supporting your central attack and the RPM with a support duty is also involved into defensive play, you could think about a more penetrating role to provide better support for your poacher. Both CM(a) and Mezzala with either Duty could be a solution.

Okay, so keep the RPM and change the AP to CM? And the DLP to Mazella?

[CARRERA]

3 minutes ago, FRIESENAAR said:

Okay, so keep the RPM and change the AP to CM? And the DLP to Mazella?

 

I would still recommend to keep on playing your tactics until it stops working or the season is over. Thats properbly the best time to make changes, as players need to become familar with new roles and instructions.

[Prolix]

30 minutes ago, FRIESENAAR said:

So using De Jong as a Mazella on attacking and my left IW on attacking would be usefull? I don't really know what a Mazella does. Wouldn't it be kinda useless to use both a Mazella and IW on attacking on the left flank 

 

I didn't say that the player you use to attack central space has to be De Jong or that it has to be played from LCM. 

I agree with @CARRERA that the RPM is the most dynamic of the playmaker roles, but it's not a role that will attack the box (which is currently only occupied by your poacher). So I would pair the RPM with another more attacking role. Which side you choose to play them on depends on how you want the whole team to build play.

An example:

AF-a

IW-s                                   W-s

RPM-s     MEZ-s

DM-d

FB-a/WB-s  CB-d   BPD-d   FB-s   

SK-s

The roles here are still on the cautious side, but like I said I think staying very close to what has been successful for you so far is the best path forward.

The AF is more dynamic than the poacher. The IW is more dynamic than the W. The Mezzala is more dynamic than the AP. The DM is more disciplined than the DLP but doesn't attract the ball, which allows the overall play to be more dynamic.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Prolix