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Posted (edited)

Let me begin by saying I'm quite a successful player. Far from the best but am capable. One thing I've never been able to master is a 'defensive' system within the tactics. I really hope this thread doesn't get moved to the tactics section as I believe it has more to do with the misunderstanding of how the labels/instructions work.

 

I'm currently managing Widzew Lodz in Poland. I got them promoted in the 1st season and won the Estraklasa in my 3rd. I'm currently in the Champions League. I lost my first 2 games against Real Sociedad and Juventus, both were 2-0 defeats. Not too disheartening. Anyhow, next up were Liverpool away, a real toughie, so I thought I'd change to a more conservative style. 

 

I decided, due to me not being able to implement a good defensive style, that I'd go with one of the templates, The Catenaccio. The ultimate defensive strategy which worked amazingly well for Italian teams of past and defences were almost impenetrable. I also decided to go with the recommended roles given with a the formation 5-2-3. On paper, I didn't see much wrong with it. I'm quite tactically aware and could see that they might nick a goal but I didn't expect what was to come. 

 

We got absolutely battered. It was not Catenaccio. Not even close. Of course, Liverpool were gonna control the game but this was embarrassing to watch. Players just didn't position themselves well at all, it was ridiculous. The Catenaccio should restrict shots and obstruct passing lanes/lines. This was not done one single time. My team are the underdogs, without a doubt, but they should have been able to restrict Liverpool to less than SEVENTY shots. We are a Champions League team with capable players. SEVENTY shots using Catenaccio. It's absolutely nonsensical. 

 

My previous games I had a more Balanced style with high pressing and only faced 21 shots (Juventus) and 22 shots (Real Socieded). To be expected as a weaker team not playing so defensively. As you can see in the screenshots, the Wing-Backs got terrible ratings, but they were not over-run. The wingers were on support duty and were also back 'helping' in a defensive position. The ratings are extremely misleading. Most goals were conceded due to players not actually defending correctly. It was like when I used to coach youngsters and the coaches would play against them and they had no idea how to stop the coaches, laughable really. 

 

My point is, I'm confused. It doesn't make sense. Maybe I'm dumb. It could be that. Or maybe it's the mental gymnastics of trying to understand what the tactics really mean. I don't think the mentalities or styles do what they say on the tin. They're a little misleading and extremely ambiguous. I'm good at the game, I quite like it too, even though it has a lot of deficiencies, but I only seem to get success playing a certain way. 

 

The worst part for me was after the game, my assistant recommended that I tell the players I was happy with their performance. Utter shambles. 

Liverpool v Widzew_ Review.png

Liverpool v Widzew_ Team Talk.png

Edited by dolph11
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This is more of a tactical discussion, so I'm moving this there to that forum. I'd also advise you to post up the tactics you used so people can see.

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Don't use Preset Template tactics. It will only lead to trouble. From what I remember the Catenaccio preset in the game is with with Defensive mentality and low defensive line which is a big no-no against a team like Liverpool. Basically you are giving then a free license to camp out in your own half and batter you.

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17 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

They were the recommended tactics from the template. Surely they should be reasonable for the style, no?

I agree tactical presets should be reasonable to some extend at least and they are clearly not. However, is your team familar with that style of play or did you just choose it for that particular match?

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

They were the recommended tactics from the template. Surely they should be reasonable for the style, no?

Well unfortunately they are not. Its one of the things I don't like about the game. The presets are full of tactical overkill and you are better of reading some threads on here that talk about building a good defensive tactic and learning to make your own rather than using a preset. It is what it is

Edited by crusadertsar
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6 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Don't use Preset Template tactics. It will only lead to trouble. From what I remember the Catenaccio preset in the game is with with Defensive mentality and low defensive line which is a big no-no against a team like Liverpool. Basically you are giving then a free license to camp out in your own half and batter you.

Yeah this is the default for the formation he picked: 

image.thumb.png.91974dee93a3ffb626547b26668d07b0.png

This is a really bad preset and only no wonder that OP unfortunately got battered by Liverpool using it. :(

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Just now, NotSoSpecialOne said:

Yeah this is the default for the formation he picked: 

image.thumb.png.91974dee93a3ffb626547b26668d07b0.png

This is a really bad preset and only no wonder that OP unfortunately got battered by Liverpool using it. :(

Ouch thats brutal :( I'm not surprised. Not really Catenaccio at all. The only thing it got right was the Libero role lol

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The thing is, that formation in reality can work. Obstruct the passing the lanes, much like my team Wolves did last season. We would camp out with 5 at the back and counter, much like a Catenaccio system. It's just on here it doesn't work as defenders don't really know how to defend in such situations. They don't have the positional awareness. 

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31 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

I decided, due to me not being able to implement a good defensive style, that I'd go with one of the templates, The Catenaccio.

Presets are not to be used as finished recipes, sadly. There's Gegenpress and Vertical Tiki-Taka that can be half decent, but the rest are full of tactical overkills that simply don't translate very well into the game. Catenaccio or Park the Bus especially, my guess is they were put together on paper and never tested properly.

Don't get discouraged thinking you can't play defensive football in FM though. It's very possible to put together a tactic that aims to grind out clean sheets, but again, defending close to your own goal comes with its own risks and there's never any guarantees, so you need to know what you're in for. Besides that, putting together a tactic is one thing and having players that can actually execute it successfully another.

That's one recent example, if you're interested.

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1 minute ago, dolph11 said:

The thing is, that formation in reality can work. Obstruct the passing the lanes, much like my team Wolves did last season. We would camp out with 5 at the back and counter, much like a Catenaccio system. It's just on here it doesn't work as defenders don't really know how to defend in such situations. They don't have the positional awareness. 

The formation itself isn't the issue. It's the instructions and to an extent roles that are. 

  • Defensive mentality does not equal defensive football.
  • Frequently wasting time can and probably does result in players being tackled and losing possession in critical areas which against a side like Liverpool is suicidal.
  • More direct passing, on defensive mentality and be more disciplined doesn't result in counter attacking football at all; all risk in play has been sapped out so players will just hoof it, allowing Liverpool to just build up again and sustain pressure.
  • Counter is ticked but as mentioned above, a variety of factors results in this never really being the case. At least in a way that could potentially hurt Liverpool.
  • Goalkeeper being instructed to slow down the pace seems at odds with the intended style. Gives opposition more time to get set.
  • Lower Defensive Line + LLOE + Less Urgent Pressing especially whilst on Defensive mentality is so incredibly passive that you concede the pitch entirely and give the opposition free reign to play. It puts your defensive players under constant pressure from kick off to final whistle, so unless they're all rocking 20 concentration (among other things) they're going to crack.
  • Just as an aside, a roaming playmaker in this set up seems like a bad idea.

It is a shame that presets like this exist; it's a reasonable expectation that you should be able to pick one to suit your needs and some of them are just straight up traps.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

Presets are not to be used as finished recipes, sadly. There's Gegenpress and Vertical Tiki-Taka that can be half decent, but the rest are full of tactical overkills that simply don't translate very well into the game. Catenaccio or Park the Bus especially, my guess is they were put together on paper and never tested properly.

Don't get discouraged thinking you can't play defensive football in FM though. It's very possible to put together a tactic that aims to grind out clean sheets, but again, defending close to your own goal comes with its own risks and there's never any guarantees, so you need to know what you're in for. Besides that, putting together a tactic is one thing and having players that can actually execute it successfully another.

That's one recent example, if you're interested.

Good points. But unfortunately that thread won't help him. It uses not only an older ME but also an older tactic creator. Things changed to much over the recent versions with the instruction if the LOE and DL to the point of where many of Ozil's beautiful FM18 tactics dont work anymore. Like for example you can't just use all support duties like in his famous Total Football tactic. It's simply not a good way of playing in FM21. Now in defending and attacking it is much more about achieving a good balance in duties in order to create space to attack into or deny space for your opposition.

Hoping that one day @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! will translate his tactics to the new ME.

Edited by crusadertsar
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it really is a mess, that its still so hard to understand just from the description, how different settings translate into the match enginge. Especially if you are new to the game or just playing casually. 

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3 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

But unfortunately that thread won't help him. It uses not only an older ME but also an older tactic creator.

I agree, but one can still learn a lot from his principles. He was the one that opened my eyes on Mentality and how different Duties combined with different Mentalities actually impact player behavior, understanding which I think is crucial when it comes to such delicate playing styles.

The above preset looks much more passive than what Ö-zil used in his game against Man City, for example. Low Mentality, combined with multiple Defend Duties just lowers the risk-taking to such degree it's impossible to keep any of the ball, which means you're constantly under the cosh. Some of the Instructions then extrapolate the whole thing even further and that's how you get users scratching their heads, when they get absolutely demolished despite a supposedly defensively solid tactical style. :D

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24 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

it really is a mess, that its still so hard to understand just from the description, how different settings translate into the match enginge. Especially if you are new to the game or just playing casually. 

This is my point. The tactic I used is almost identical to Wolves set-up that got us to the Semi's of the Euro Cup. The difference is we used an IWB at RB and Neves less so as a RPM and more of a DLP. We were defensive, low-block and soaked up a lot of pressure, looking to get it to Jimenez (CF) and he would work his socks off. It was a modern form of Catenaccio and very similar to the pre-set tactic here. Even the Team Instructions are similar. There is no way 70 shots would occur with this set-up in real life. It did not represent defensive football in any way. Work needs to be done on a massive scale in my opinion to represent different styles accurately and with better understanding for the user.

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4 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

I agree, but one can still learn a lot from his principles. He was the one that opened my eyes on Mentality and how different Duties combined with different Mentalities actually impact player behavior, understanding which I think is crucial when it comes to such delicate playing styles.

The above preset looks much more passive than what Ö-zil used in his game against Man City, for example. Low Mentality, combined with multiple Defend Duties just lowers the risk-taking to such degree it's impossible to keep any of the ball, which means you're constantly under the cosh. Some of the Instructions then extrapolate the whole thing even further and that's how you get users scratching their heads, when they get absolutely demolished despite a supposedly defensively solid tactical style. :D

Oh absolutely! His general principles are still sound. And it was thanks to him that I realized that the individual mentalities are more important than the bigger team mentality. Essentially it is very much possible to play defensively with an attacking team mentality.

For me the trick for defending in current ME is to have a solid hard-tacking mid block with advantage in midfield.

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3 hours ago, dolph11 said:

They were the recommended tactics from the template. Surely they should be reasonable for the style, no?

Unfortunately, preset tactics are full of overkill, which is why people have problems when using them. I personally do not recommend presets to anyone, although some people have had success. However, even those that have been successful for some players are not from the defensive category but rather attack-minded and very aggressive. 

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3 hours ago, Zemahh said:

There's Gegenpress and Vertical Tiki-Taka that can be half decent, but the rest are full of tactical overkills

These two are also full of overkill, only a different type of overkill. 

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It's disappointing from SI that these poorly constructed presets exist after the last 3 iterations of this game. Surely this should be high up on the list of potential improvements to the game as this could directly impact how well new players can play the game. 

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18 minutes ago, Kuchiki said:

It's disappointing from SI that these poorly constructed presets exist after the last 3 iterations of this game. Surely this should be high up on the list of potential improvements to the game as this could directly impact how well new players can play the game. 

I agree. Maybe they should allow some tactical wizards in the FM community to deconstruct and remake the presets for FM22 :lol:  Imagine the Defensive Football Preset designed by @Experienced Defender

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59 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I agree. Maybe they should allow some tactical wizards in the FM community to deconstruct and remake the presets for FM22 :lol:  Imagine the Defensive Football Preset designed by @Experienced Defender

While I agree that presets desperately need to be improved (primarily through simplification), even those potentially improved presets could not be used as plug'n'play tactics. They would still need some tweaking in order to be adapted to a specific team or match.

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I really fail to see what is so wrong with that preset and why. And if AI can play such defensive tactics quite successfuly it would be interesting to know how they do IT and how much it differs from presets.

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1 hour ago, Mitja said:

I really fail to see what is so wrong with that preset and why. And if AI can play such defensive tactics quite successfuly it would be interesting to know how they do IT and how much it differs from presets.

More often than not, when the AI defeats/outperforms us, it's not because the AI tactic was good, but because ours is bad (whether it's a preset or not). 

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21 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

More often than not, when the AI defeats/outperforms us, it's not because the AI tactic was good, but because ours is bad (whether it's a preset or not). 

It could be. But i dont understand what your answer has to do with tactical overkill of that preset. How can a preset tactic allow more than 70 shots? Anyway it would be interesting to hear whats so blatantly wrong with it?

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Mitja said:

It could be. But i dont understand what your answer has to do with tactical overkill of that preset. How can a preset tactic allow more than 70 shots? Anyway it would be interesting to hear whats so blatantly wrong with it?

Pretty much everything in out of possesion instructions actually. It goes overboard in its defensive instructions and is way too passive. Lower DL, Lower LOE, regroup. Allowing opposition too much space in front of your box. It's inivitable that superior opposition like Liverpool will score eventually when left alone like that.

Edited by crusadertsar
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3 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Pretty much everything in out of possesion instructions actually. It goes overboard in its defensive instructions and is way too passive. Lower DL, Lower LOE, regroup. Allowing opposition too much space in front of your box. It's inivitable that superior opposition like Liverpool will score eventually when left alone like that.

Just to add, that especially in combination with a defensive mentality it’s way too passive, as the mentality alone comes already by default with many of those instructions to some extend.

Tactics in FM is a multilayer of Mentality and instructions

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24 minutes ago, Mitja said:

How can a preset tactic allow more than 70 shots?

Any poorly designed tactic can, not just a preset. Any tactic that has:

a) poor balance in terms of roles and duties (viewed as a whole)

OR

b) any kind of contradiction

OR

c) any kind of overkill

OR

d) any combination of the above

Is likely to cause problems.

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30 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Pretty much everything in out of possesion instructions actually. It goes overboard in its defensive instructions and is way too passive. Lower DL, Lower LOE, regroup. Allowing opposition too much space in front of your box. It's inivitable that superior opposition like Liverpool will score eventually when left alone like that.

But in real life that can work, genuinely. Watch any Wolves game from last season and I can guarantee you you won't see much difference. In addition, as someone who has done coaching badges when you defend deep like that you don't want to close down to much as you lose positional space. The key is where the defenders stand and a lot of pivotal defending is needed. The point is that this formation should have been far more impenetrable with that amount of bodies behind the ball, they were all just standing in the wrong place. 

 

Just standing one step in the wrong place can ruin the whole positional defending needed with this type of style, that's what my players were doing. The AI seem to be fantastic at it and I'd really love to see what they use to implement it so well. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

But in real life that can work, genuinely. Watch any Wolves game from last season and I can guarantee you you won't see much difference. In addition, as someone who has done coaching badges when you defend deep like that you don't want to close down to much as you lose positional space. The key is where the defenders stand and a lot of pivotal defending is needed. The point is that this formation should have been far more impenetrable with that amount of bodies behind the ball, they were all just standing in the wrong place. 

 

Just standing one step in the wrong place can ruin the whole positional defending needed with this type of style, that's what my players were doing. The AI seem to be fantastic at it and I'd really love to see what they use to implement it so well. 

It may very well work in real life but there are many things in the game that don't work as they should in real life. Trust me, I would love to faithfully recreate Total Football in the game but it's just not possible. Same with other styles. Sometimes you just need to temper your expectations or you will always be disappointed mate. 

Also as @Experienced Defender said it's not so much what AI does differently, but more about what human player does wrong. AI may very well defend in the same ineffective manner as the preset but the reason it works for them is that most human players don't create effective movement and attacking patterns to really exploit such weaknesses. Most popular tactics tend to be too aggressive in pressing the AI and throwing numbers forward with little thought about smart transition play. And that plays into AI defensive hand as it parks the Catenaccio bus. They just compress around their own goal and deny you space. 

 

Edited by crusadertsar
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Defending in a low block can absolutely work in the game too. The tactic just needs to be well designed, among other things and if you were going to set up a low block system it would like quite a bit different from the preset (certainly if your goal is to recreate Wolves for example).

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37 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Pretty much everything in out of possesion instructions actually. It goes overboard in its defensive instructions and is way too passive. Lower DL, Lower LOE, regroup.

Most popular tactics tend to be too aggressive in pressing the AI and throwing numbers forward with little thought about smart transition play.

So defensive tactics should use high block (relative to mentality) and attacking tactics should use low block (relative to mentality)? I had no problem playing highest block possible on attacking mentality, AI does the same. Why is then Lower DL, Lower LOE, regroup overkill? It makes no sense whatsoever. 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Mitja said:

So defensive tactics should use high block (relative to mentality) and attacking tactics should use low block (relative to mentality)? I had no problem playing highest block possible on attacking mentality, AI does the same. Why is then Lower DL, Lower LOE, regroup overkill? It makes no sense whatsoever. 

I don't know where you are getting this from. Where was I suggesting to use high block in a defensive tactic :idiot:?

Again why are you going with the tactical extremes. What about just a simple midblock? It seemed to have worked for Mourinho, the master of defensive tactics. 

 

Edited by crusadertsar
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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

a) poor balance in terms of roles and duties (viewed as a whole)

OR

b) any kind of contradiction

OR

c) any kind of overkill

OR

d) any combination of the above

Role and duty selection is well balanced imho, maybe RPM is a little questionable but all alse looks fine. Contradiction? Dirct passing and lower tempo, wasting time? Nothing too important. Overkill? Maybe a little more pressing intensity but again hardly a reason why such tactics should allow 70 shots from opposition.

 

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53 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

It may very well work in real life but there are many things in the game that don't work as they should in real life.

 

1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

It seemed to have worked for Mourinho, the master of defensive tactics. 

I don't get what you are trying to say. I'm not here for advice I only share the view of OP (who happens to be real life coach) who asked a fair question and nobody manged to answer him anything quality except that it is overkill (which is obviously not).

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Mitja said:

 

I don't get what you are trying to say. I'm not here for advice I only share the view of OP (who happens to be real life coach) who asked a fair question and nobody manged to answer him anything quality except that it is overkill (which is obviously not).

I was just trying to say that you are putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I suggest that one should use high block as you mentioned in your last post. Whats so hard to understand there?

In the game the best approach is moderation and staying away from extremes in either attacking or defending. The OP may very well be a real life coach but what we have been trying to explain to him is that the game doesn't work exactly like in real life. Me and the others have been trying to help him how to be successful in the game by using the specific rules that work in the game. But that seems to be something that you don't really understand yourself.

Edited by crusadertsar
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2 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Nowhere did I suggest that one should use high block as you mentioned in your last post. Whats so hard to understand there?

You said more than once that his out of possession approach is overkill. Which meens i'M NOT PUTTING  words in your mouth. After that you said that things don't work in FM like they do in real life and then you brought one real life mananger (Mourinho) up. Or maybe you meen he should have used standard d-line etc instead of lower? It would really have changed things totally for him in that game. So what it's gonna be one notch up or two? ;)

My point is please don't treat people like idiots and if you do you should at least put some effort into it. Sayinf something is overkill is not enough.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Role and duty selection is well balanced imho, maybe RPM is a little questionable but all alse looks fine. Contradiction? Dirct passing and lower tempo, wasting time? Nothing too important. Overkill? Maybe a little more pressing intensity but again hardly a reason why such tactics should allow 70 shots from opposition.

 

The main issue is not actually with any one of those instructions. But the COMBINATION of all them. Like Low DL, Low LOE, time wasting, lower tempo. ALL of them together is the defensive overkill that allows superior attacking AI teams to walz all over the human player. It's really simple.

And yes a standard DL would probably work better for him. That would have been my advice.

Edited by crusadertsar
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13 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

In the game the best approach is moderation and staying away from extremes in either attacking or defending.

Another thing, this is your opinon nothing more. There is no best approach in the game just like there's no best approach in football or anywhere alse...

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23 minutes ago, Mitja said:

 

I don't get what you are trying to say. I'm not here for advice I only share the view of OP (who happens to be real life coach) who asked a fair question and nobody manged to answer him anything quality except that it is overkill (which is obviously not).

How is this not an answer?

22 hours ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

The formation itself isn't the issue. It's the instructions and to an extent roles that are. 

  • Defensive mentality does not equal defensive football.
  • Frequently wasting time can and probably does result in players being tackled and losing possession in critical areas which against a side like Liverpool is suicidal.
  • More direct passing, on defensive mentality and be more disciplined doesn't result in counter attacking football at all; all risk in play has been sapped out so players will just hoof it, allowing Liverpool to just build up again and sustain pressure.
  • Counter is ticked but as mentioned above, a variety of factors results in this never really being the case. At least in a way that could potentially hurt Liverpool.
  • Goalkeeper being instructed to slow down the pace seems at odds with the intended style. Gives opposition more time to get set.
  • Lower Defensive Line + LLOE + Less Urgent Pressing especially whilst on Defensive mentality is so incredibly passive that you concede the pitch entirely and give the opposition free reign to play. It puts your defensive players under constant pressure from kick off to final whistle, so unless they're all rocking 20 concentration (among other things) they're going to crack.
  • Just as an aside, a roaming playmaker in this set up seems like a bad idea.

It is a shame that presets like this exist; it's a reasonable expectation that you should be able to pick one to suit your needs and some of them are just straight up traps.

 

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1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

The main issue is not actually with any one of those instructions. But the COMBINATION of all them. Like Low DL, Low LOE, time wasting, lower tempo. ALL of them together is the defensive overkill that allows superior attacking AI teams to walz all over the human player. It's really simple.

Again this is only your opinon if higher d-line, higher loe etc can work and it works then low dl, low loe should work too. 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Another thing, this is your opinon nothing more. There is no best approach in the game just like there's no best approach in football or anywhere alse...

Again nowhere did I say that my advice was law. It's always just advice. I was just speaking from personal experience of trying out defensive strategies in the game and seeing what worked for me in the past. Same with other people who offered their advice like @Experienced Defender and @NotSoSpecialOne . In fact I encourage you to try out the Catenaccio preset with an underdog team like OP did. And then you can report back to us maybe. 

Edited by crusadertsar
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Just now, NotSoSpecialOne said:

How is this not an answer?

 

You were the only one who offered some true advice hat down to you. But I have to say I disagree with all you said and I didn't quote you because I respect everybody's opinon. 

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2 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

The problem here is not, that defensive / low block tactics don’t work on FM its all about how you thing they translate into the match engine and how they really translate into the match engine.

Lets talk about Defensive line for example: What you may think sounds logical when looking for a defensive style is to pick a rather defensive mentality and add a lower defensive line because you want to defend with a low block. What you may NOT see is, that defensive mentality already implements a low block and then additionally lowering the DL may simply be too much and opening up space right in front of the goal.

Why is then playing highest block on att mentality not a problem? There are countless real life teams parking the bus infront of penalty area and very few pressing like City. 

Anyway I'm yet to see somebody posting PROPER and working defensive tacctics here. With proper I meen defensive mentality, low block, 1-2 attacking duies. But everybody is full of advice. And most of advice is: play balanced put everything in middle. 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Why is then playing highest block on att mentality not a problem? There are countless real life teams parking the bus infront of penalty area and very few pressing like City. 

Anyway I'm yet to see somebody posting PROPER and working defensive tacctics here. With proper I meen defensive mentality, low block, 1-2 attacking duies. But everybody is full of advice. And most of advice is: play balanced put everything in middle. 

Proper defensive tactic with Defensive Mentality with low block? Didn't you read @CARRERA post? He just told you that Defensive Team mentality already comes with a low block. So by setting low block through the DL instructions you are setting up a tactical extreme that is going to put too much pressure on your backline.

You are asking for something that doesn't work in the game. 

Edited by crusadertsar
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8 minutes ago, Mitja said:

You were the only one who offered some true advice hat down to you. But I have to say I disagree with all you said and I didn't quote you because I respect everybody's opinon. 

I'd be interested in seeing your reasoning for disagreeing in the spirit of discussion.

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1 minute ago, Mitja said:

Why is then playing highest block on att mentality not a problem? There are countless real life teams parking the bus infront of penalty area and very few pressing like City. 

Anyway I'm yet to see somebody posting PROPER and working defensive tacctics here. With proper I meen defensive mentality, low block, 1-2 attacking duies. But everybody is full of advice. And most of advice is: play balanced put everything in middle. 

The advice mentioned by various members of this forum is what is, because that's how "succesful" defensive tactics will work on the current iteration of FM.

You have to understand that the game is not perfect. It has it's own mechanics and the advice provided on this forum helps you to understand the mechanic of the game and create a tactic that works with said mechanic.

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5 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Proper defensive tactic with Defensive Mentality with low block?

You looked shocked what's the problem?

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As someone who gave feedback on these presets before they were released a couple of years ago I'd like to give you all a different perspective, as from these comments there appears to be a fair amount of misunderstanding.

When looking at one of these presets (I forget which one now but it was one of the more defensive ones) I showed where it was lacking and how it could perhaps be improved.  But I was missing the whole point of the preset - the preset is nothing more than a starting point primarily for inexperienced managers who just don't know where to start and to impart some basic general principles of tactic design.  They are a starter for ten and something to be adapted depending on available players and opposition.  That's it.  They're not the finished article, they're not a one size fits all, they're not a super tactic and if you use them as such then you do so at your own peril.  The feedback I gave was showing how it could be more of a "finished article", but that missed the point of the preset.

So it's all well and good having the more experienced people in here commenting about how they're overkill, rubbish, poorly designed etc but, like I did, you're missing the point.  Now ok in some areas it could be argued these presets may actually be misleading, being perhaps overly passive or aggressive, and that could be worse for inexperienced managers.  However again they are just a starting point.  A reference if you will - something which says "ok here are some general principles to get you thinking about these styles, now take those principles and adapt them". 

And I would suggest that from that perspective they do serve that purpose.  For defensive systems they do make you think about formation, sitting deep, playing passively, and the opposite for more attacking systems.  If they turn out to be "overkill" then that's for us to adapt them.  For possession systems the presets introduce some general principles of ball control, tempo, shorter passing and so on.  But that isn't really made clear in game, which brings me back to the OP's point:

23 hours ago, dolph11 said:

My point is, I'm confused. It doesn't make sense. Maybe I'm dumb. It could be that. Or maybe it's the mental gymnastics of trying to understand what the tactics really mean. I don't think the mentalities or styles do what they say on the tin. They're a little misleading and extremely ambiguous. I'm good at the game, I quite like it too, even though it has a lot of deficiencies, but I only seem to get success playing a certain way. 

You're right, they don't really.  There is a lack of information and a lot of misunderstanding of not only what things actually do but - much more importantly - how things combine together.  The problem was you used the Catenaccio preset in an unintended way - you didn't adapt it for your playing squad or the opposition and didn't really pay much attention to the principles being given which may have led you to making some changes.  You just used it "out of the box" which is not how it's supposed to be used.  I'll stress though that's not your fault because it isn't really made clear in game what their intended use is.

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2 hours ago, dolph11 said:

But in real life that can work, genuinely

Of course it can, but how do you know that a tactic created in FM really reflects a tactic in real life football? Any tactic, not just yours.

The problem is not catenaccio as a tactical style. The problem is how people set it up in the game. One can create both a good and bad tactic for any style of football. 

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