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[Discussion] Determination should be removed


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Determination is the absolute most important attribute when you want to develop wonderkids. I dont even bother buying high PA youngsters that have low determination because they are never gonna develop into wonderkids or star players. I think that determination should be a hidden attribute.
Take Nianzou or Sandry in the screens. Although both are among the youngsters with the highest PA in the game, we now already know that they will not develop into top players in this save.

Sandry_ Profile.png

Tanguy Nianzou_ Profile.png

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You do know you can mentor the Determination up quite a bit?

Also, for my own sake, I'd rather my players have low determination as long as they have a high professionalism instead. Much more important to youth development as far as I'm concerned.

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Isn’t the wonderkid tag a media description anyway, and therefore a reputation thing?

Try not using low determination players when playing LLM saves and your pool of players diminished drastically.

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, XaW said:

You do know you can mentor the Determination up quite a bit?

Also, for my own sake, I'd rather my players have low determination as long as they have a high professionalism instead. Much more important to youth development as far as I'm concerned.

At best it can be increased by 3-5 points. That will not help if a player has determination from 1-5. 
Btw. It’s impossible to have a player with professional mentality and a determination at 1-5, because the personality of a player is highly influenced by his determination. 

Edited by ThomasHK1979
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45 minutes ago, Sonic Youth said:

Isn’t the wonderkid tag a media description anyway, and therefore a reputation thing?

Try not using low determination players when playing LLM saves and your pool of players diminished drastically.

You’re missing the point here. If you have a player with PA at 180 but a determination at 3. He will never come even close to his potential ability. 

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1 hour ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Determination is the absolute most important attribute when you want to develop wonderkids.

This isn't correct. Determination, Professionalism and Ambition are equally important.

I haven't thought about the subject of removing Determination from being visible, but that's something you could post in the feature requests section.

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2 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Determination is the absolute most important attribute when you want to develop wonderkids. I dont even bother buying high PA youngsters that have low determination because they are never gonna develop into wonderkids or star players. I think that determination should be a hidden attribute.
Take Nianzou or Sandry in the screens. Although both are among the youngsters with the highest PA in the game, we now already know that they will not develop into top players in this save.

Sandry_ Profile.png

Tanguy Nianzou_ Profile.png

Determination should stay, since it is not that much important as you think, they did some testing: https://footballmanagerstory.com/which-attributes-influence-player-development-in-football-manager/

Fixed PA is what should be removed. With fixed PA you already know at 16y old will player develop into a good player or not. Just at the start of the player career we already know how good player career will be. PA must be dynamic, hoppefully they will implement it at one point. 

Edited by Marko1989
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4 minutes ago, Marko1989 said:

Determination should stay, since it is not that much important as you think, they did some testing: https://footballmanagerstory.com/which-attributes-influence-player-development-in-football-manager/

That's out of date. IIRC, the testing was also quite flawed. Anyway, my point is that the article references FM11 and things have moved on (a lot) since then. Determination is equal to Professionalism and Ambition in terms of development, though there's obviously luck, facilities, game time and the level of football etc that all plays a part.

 

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It's not down to determination alone. It's the personality that's much more important. Take the 2 examples you've provided:

Balanced can be viewed as good or bad, it's a variable rating for profesionalism, and ambition, but it's as much about the other parts of the personality that make this up. Plus you can bump this up with performance warinings, as well as mentoring.

Ambitous can also be a personality to take note of, not always good. I've had players spit their dummy out and be a right pain to manage with this personality. It's not the worse, but there are better. 1 who was mentored had a "increased professionalism" alonside other mentoring improvements and was then more manageable. I've had 6-7 of these that i've never been able to improve the personality and have moved on

To state that determination of 3 will never come close to their potential is very wrong.

Either way, the majority of FM players would mentor both those players very quickly. Even squad mentailty could improve that if recruitment was right....

Peronsality is made up of many factors not just the one. Just as attrubutes rearley work in isolation

Edited by plcarlos
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8 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

That's out of date. IIRC, the testing was also quite flawed. Anyway, my point is that the article references FM11 and things have moved on (a lot) since then. Determination is equal to Professionalism and Ambition in terms of development, though there's obviously luck, facilities, game time and the level of football etc that all plays a part.

 

The article is from 2020, the testing only started in 2010. The guy who did the test claimed the same in year 2020 as far as I understand :)

I did bunch of testing too in FM2021 when it came out, I was surprised how player developmet after age of 26 is almost non-existent, so because of that I did run a bunch of simulations, I was changing players Determination, Ambition and Professionalism in Editor and I've noticed that Ambition and Professionalism are most important. I don't want to say that Determination is not important but that those two hidden attributes are more important. But ok, that is just my oppinion :)

 

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1 hour ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

At best it can be increased by 3-5 points.

9t93MOL.png

That's the most I saw it increase in my personal saves. When at the top level, I always pay a lot of attention to Personalities and since they can rub off on players naturally, Determination can sometimes increase even without Mentoring. Disciplining players with fines can also help.

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5 minutes ago, Marko1989 said:

The article is from 2020, the testing only started in 2010. The guy who did the test claimed the same in year 2020 as far as I understand :)

I did bunch of testing too in FM2021 when it came out, I was surprised how player developmet after age of 26 is almost non-existent, so because of that I did run a bunch of simulations, I was changing players Determination, Ambition and Professionalism in Editor and I've noticed that Ambition and Professionalism are most important. I don't want to say that Determination is not important but that those two hidden attributes are more important. But ok, that is just my oppinion :)

 

The article might be, but both Shrew and Ugo did their tests way earlier - around 2011. There's information missing as to how exactly these tests were run, for one thing, but it's pointless, since it's old.

On the 2nd page, the article also mentions the 3 attributes I mentioned. SI has confirmed that they're all 3 - equally - important to development.

You don't have to have all 3 and they don't need to be 20, but still.

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Low Determination really shouldn't scare you away. Even with the mentoring changes, you can still get decent determination gains from young players. The absolute game-changer is fining players for bad performances though. I've had players go up 5 determination in a season, due to playing poorly for u18/u23 teams. It's crazy to the point that I've considered trying to make my youth team perform worse, because after a couple of season they usually dominate and the fine option doesn't turn up very often :lol:

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7 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

You’re missing the point here. If you have a player with PA at 180 but a determination at 3. He will never come even close to his potential ability. 

Then don’t mention wonderkid, and just talk about youth/player development.

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3 hours ago, Sonic Youth said:

Then don’t mention wonderkid, and just talk about youth/player development.

Yes because the wonderkid term is only restricted to use in a computer game🙄

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  • Luke Hume changed the title to [Discussion] Determination should be removed
9 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Yes because the wonderkid term is only restricted to use in a computer game🙄

Why are you determined to make interactions all about aggression? A determined team can overcome an aggressive team.

To improve in training, you need a will to succeed. A winning mentality needs a determination to succeed.

Might want to look into your vision about this. Your trying to remove a positive trait from the game.

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3 hours ago, Sonic Youth said:

Why are you determined to make interactions all about aggression? A determined team can overcome an aggressive team.

To improve in training, you need a will to succeed. A winning mentality needs a determination to succeed.

Might want to look into your vision about this. Your trying to remove a positive trait from the game.

Not removed. It should be a hidden attribute. 

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7 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Not removed. It should be a hidden attribute. 

Possible I guess, but would mean all personality attributes are then hidden.

Need to change title from remove to hidden.

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13 hours ago, Sonic Youth said:

Possible I guess, but would mean all personality attributes are then hidden.

Need to change title from remove to hidden.

Well, how about you start reading the actual post instead of only reading the headline ... 👇

31C0DE35-D782-485D-9275-D42E0B5366C9.jpeg

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If this is a discussion, then why do you never anywer the other aspects of player devolpment? As mentioned, Player personality overall + mentoring\tutoring\facilities\Coaching\training plans all play a major part in devloepment.

Putting this all on 1 single visiable trait, and saying it's the sole cause is short sighted, and does not factor in the sum of all the parts.

So, I'll make you a request:

Can you show  these same players progession further in the game to see if they have or have not developed? That would acctually HELP your case here if you were right, BUT it would need to also state if they were AI managed, purchased by you and if so, how they were trained.

Without any of this, and simply saying you think Determination should be a hidden trait, actually takes this thread away from being a discussion.

I will end by saying i'm not trying to have a go at you or anything, but if you take one piece from this - Do NOT look at attributes in isolation. The game just does not work like that.

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Why don’t you read threads in the FM Career Updates forum, like:

or:

I don’t think I need to go into all that you said you think I should as if you’d done a little bit of due diligence on this site, you would see that making determination hidden would not be necessary. It is the only thing of personalities visible, which then gives a guide to how to progress that player’s personality and media handling. Or if you want to keep them or not. 

You want to make this game less accessible to people playing it?

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2 hours ago, plcarlos said:

If this is a discussion, then why do you never anywer the other aspects of player devolpment? As mentioned, Player personality overall + mentoring\tutoring\facilities\Coaching\training plans all play a major part in devloepment.

Putting this all on 1 single visiable trait, and saying it's the sole cause is short sighted, and does not factor in the sum of all the parts.

So, I'll make you a request:

Can you show  these same players progession further in the game to see if they have or have not developed? That would acctually HELP your case here if you were right, BUT it would need to also state if they were AI managed, purchased by you and if so, how they were trained.

Without any of this, and simply saying you think Determination should be a hidden trait, actually takes this thread away from being a discussion.

I will end by saying i'm not trying to have a go at you or anything, but if you take one piece from this - Do NOT look at attributes in isolation. The game just does not work like that.

Stop with the attacks and actually explain using how making determination hidden will work using your last post above how your idea would work.

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On 28/04/2021 at 17:53, ThomasHK1979 said:

At best it can be increased by 3-5 points. That will not help if a player has determination from 1-5. 
Btw. It’s impossible to have a player with professional mentality and a determination at 1-5, because the personality of a player is highly influenced by his determination. 

This is complete rubbish. I've increased the determination of many players more then 5 points. 

As for the determination attribute of "Professional" players, do you even understand how the personality templates work? The determination attribute is NOT a factor within the "Professional" template. 

I get really frustrated when people try to pass their opinions off as facts. 

Determination 1-2 with a Professional personality. :lol:

6857ab64e8eed8816ca26c92d34ab32c.png

There are some personalities that are impacted by the Determination value, but "Professional" isn't one of them. 

M.Pro, Pro, Leader, C.Leader & Temp are not driven at all by the Determination attribute. It is simply not part of the template for those personalities. 

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I've never even heard of Tanguy Nianzou but let's have a look at him in my game. 

Just for the record, he starts of with Det of 8 in my game and was managed by the AI all the way through his career. 

In Jan 2020 his Det is still 8 and his CA is 119 of 178.
In Oct 2022 his Det is now 9 and his CA is 151 of 178.
In Oct 2023 his Det is still 9 and his CA is 153 of 178. He has now won the EURO U21's with France.
In Oct 2024 his Det is still 9 and his CA is 160 of 178. He now has 29 U21 Caps and is valued at £30M.
In Oct 2025 his Det is now 10 and his CA is 169 of 178. He now has 34 U21 Caps and is valued at £48.5M.
In Mar 2026 his Det is still 10 and his CA is 170 of 178. He has 2 Caps for France.
In Oct 2027 his Det is still 10 and his CA is 170 of 178. He has 15 Caps for France.
In Nov 2028 his Det is still 10 and his CA is 170 of 178. He has 22 Caps for France and is valued at £63M.
In Oct 2029 his Det is still 10 and his CA is 171 if 178. He has 25 Caps for France and is valued at £63M.
In Oct 2030 his Det is still 10 and his CA is 172 of 178. He has 33 Caps for France and is valued at £63M.

Anyway, you get the message. 

The AI can fix his Det so and develop him, so why can't you? 
 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Sonic Youth said:

Stop with the attacks and actually explain using how making determination hidden will work using your last post above how your idea would work.

You do get that a Dicussion should allow people to have opposing views right? It's not meant therfore as an attack, It's an alternative view, which is based on my opionion.

Below is the OP's first line:

"Determination is the absolute most important attribute when you want to develop wonderkids. I dont even bother buying high PA youngsters that have low determination because they are never gonna develop into wonderkids or star players. I think that determination should be a hidden attribute."

So lets talk about determination, and some of the tips we are shown in game:

"players with low determintation may respond badly to going a goal down" - This right here is an on the pitch affect and not as much related to development (Game time at arropriate level).

"Lack of determination may hinder him in certain situations" - Quiet vague this one, so SI themselves would probably need to clarify this one., But this could be the above goal down, critizisim of poor training

Detemernitation being hidden:

What about the coaches? It's not just players that have this trait, so how would that be reflected?

For Coaches is desribed as the "Coaches drive to better themselves" So in that aspect, it's a different modifyer from what a player has - So how would this be coded in to being a hidden trait? Maybe one that becomes visable as we get to know the coaches, or the higher reputation of the coach.

Finally:

https://www.guidetofm.com/players/personalities/3/

On here is clearly states that Determination is part of an overall personality, and as such Determination being hidden or not, is just 1 part of a complex puzzle that we have in devolping players.

Look at the personality of the first player in the OP's post and note that it's balanced - A neutral personality, that most Human managers would mentor, or take discilplinary actions to improve when applicable.

Look at the post above, which has cleary shown that the same player who started with a low Determination is now directly contraty to the main statment in the OP's first comment. That's also by the AI, when us human managers are normlally better at improving that..

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On 01/05/2021 at 23:04, plcarlos said:

You do get that a Dicussion should allow people to have opposing views right? It's not meant therfore as an attack, It's an alternative view, which is based on my opionion.

Below is the OP's first line:

"Determination is the absolute most important attribute when you want to develop wonderkids. I dont even bother buying high PA youngsters that have low determination because they are never gonna develop into wonderkids or star players. I think that determination should be a hidden attribute."

So lets talk about determination, and some of the tips we are shown in game:

"players with low determintation may respond badly to going a goal down" - This right here is an on the pitch affect and not as much related to development (Game time at arropriate level).

"Lack of determination may hinder him in certain situations" - Quiet vague this one, so SI themselves would probably need to clarify this one., But this could be the above goal down, critizisim of poor training

Detemernitation being hidden:

What about the coaches? It's not just players that have this trait, so how would that be reflected?

For Coaches is desribed as the "Coaches drive to better themselves" So in that aspect, it's a different modifyer from what a player has - So how would this be coded in to being a hidden trait? Maybe one that becomes visable as we get to know the coaches, or the higher reputation of the coach.

Finally:

https://www.guidetofm.com/players/personalities/3/

On here is clearly states that Determination is part of an overall personality, and as such Determination being hidden or not, is just 1 part of a complex puzzle that we have in devolping players.

Look at the personality of the first player in the OP's post and note that it's balanced - A neutral personality, that most Human managers would mentor, or take discilplinary actions to improve when applicable.

Look at the post above, which has cleary shown that the same player who started with a low Determination is now directly contraty to the main statment in the OP's first comment. That's also by the AI, when us human managers are normlally better at improving that..

Go read those stories I put in one of my last posts in here and then meditate on what you’ve just posted. 
 

It’s not just that the are great to read, but can give you a lot of information about training, personalities and other parts you’ve mentioned.

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, Sonic Youth said:

Go read those stories I put in one of my last posts in here and then meditate on what you’ve just posted. 
 

It’s not just that the are great to read, but can give you a lot of information about training, personalities and other parts you’ve mentioned.

I've read a lot of the tactical forums, and in fact my training\coaching has devloped a lot from this alongside others:

Whilst i'm also following this and using some of the principles to adapt my training of players:

 

Edited by plcarlos
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Sonic Youth said:

Go read those stories I put in one of my last posts in here and then meditate on what you’ve just posted. 
 

It’s not just that the are great to read, but can give you a lot of information about training, personalities and other parts you’ve mentioned.

Applogies for a dual post, i can't add to my other one for some reason.

I also mention Determination exactly as you mentioned, highlighted the OP's Basis for the discussion that determination should be hidden as the OP believe's it's THE determining factor. I mean, are you even reading this thread? Or even will to DISCUSS the key argument of determination being deemed as THE #1 contribution factor of devlopement?

Edited by plcarlos
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Posted (edited)
On 29/04/2021 at 00:51, Marko1989 said:

Determination should stay, since it is not that much important as you think, they did some testing: https://footballmanagerstory.com/which-attributes-influence-player-development-in-football-manager/

Fixed PA is what should be removed. With fixed PA you already know at 16y old will player develop into a good player or not. Just at the start of the player career we already know how good player career will be. PA must be dynamic, hoppefully they will implement it at one point. 

the problem for dynamic PA, the FM manager will have way to abuse that dynamicality 

But I agree if dynamic PA will have that surprise elements and more excitement in playing the game

Some things that could be affect the PA 

  • major injury (lower PA) because their feet will never be the same again, I think the current method for injury are PA is affected CA (lower CA and interrupt training)
  • called up by nation with higher reputation and get capped

With this in motion we will get someone like Vardy in our save. Do you think Leicester know Vardy have high PA when they bought him ?? Even I dont think he even  have 100 PA in years before his breakout in Leicester

Edited by saintrainhard
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On 03/05/2021 at 20:20, plcarlos said:

Applogies for a dual post, i can't add to my other one for some reason.

I also mention Determination exactly as you mentioned, highlighted the OP's Basis for the discussion that determination should be hidden as the OP believe's it's THE determining factor. I mean, are you even reading this thread? Or even will to DISCUSS the key argument of determination being deemed as THE #1 contribution factor of devlopement?

You hide determination, you might as well make personalities and media handling static. That or just remove them completely from the game. How else will you start to decode what personality is what without an editor or reference point?

Wouldn’t it be easier to create (or have created for you) a skin that does this, has determination as a hidden attribute?

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11 hours ago, Sonic Youth said:

You hide determination, you might as well make personalities and media handling static. That or just remove them completely from the game. How else will you start to decode what personality is what without an editor or reference point?

Wouldn’t it be easier to create (or have created for you) a skin that does this, has determination as a hidden attribute?

I'm actually against determination being hidden, I'm not sure why you think otherwise. My Discsussions on this topic have all been about personalities being more than just the one attribute. My Posts have been about trying to discuss the OP's (IMHO) flawed option, that determination is the SOLE factor.

And for the last time, Personality is made up of so much more than Determination: Ambition, Loyalty, Sportsmanship, Pressure, Professionalism, Controversy, Temprement.... all make up part of the personlity. YES, Determination does play a PART in SOME of these, but it's not THE #1 factor...

If Hidden: Controversial, Mercenary, would still show up in media handling as they would normally. Again, I'm not for Determination to be hidden.

Even one of the Career posters you've mentioned, has said the below in their reply:

There are some personalities that are impacted by the Determination value, but "Professional" isn't one of them. 

M.Pro, Pro, Leader, C.Leader & Temp are not driven at all by the Determination attribute. It is simply not part of the template for those personalities. 

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  • 4 weeks later...
Posted (edited)
On 28/04/2021 at 17:47, ThomasHK1979 said:

Determination is the absolute most important attribute when you want to develop wonderkids. I dont even bother buying high PA youngsters that have low determination because they are never gonna develop into wonderkids or star players.

It is the oldest myth in FM that Determination has a large impact on player development. Professionalism is the only proven and SI-approved attribute that influences player development, with Ambition and Determination being wildly speculated at by the community. The reason all your good wonderkids tend to have higher Determination is because Determination is not affected by training and doesn't change a great deal in a players career without outside influences. Therefore, if your guy will become world-class he will already probably have a world-class or at least decent Determination as well.

Just for the heck of it, make two players, one with 1 Determination and 20 Professionalism and one with 1 Professionalism and 20 Determination (everything else being equal). You won't doubt it ever again afterwards

Edited by Xinetic
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20 minutes ago, Xinetic said:

It is the oldest myth in FM that Determination has a large impact on player development. Professionalism is the only proven and SI-approved attribute that influences player development, with Ambition and Determination being wildly speculated at by the community.

This is incorrect. SI have stated that Professionalism, Determination and Ambition are equal in terms of being factors driving development.

You can read more here: https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/405653-determination/

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31 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

This is incorrect. SI have stated that Professionalism, Determination and Ambition are equal in terms of being factors driving development.

You can read more here: https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/405653-determination/

Thanks for clarifying. Where can I find the statement where it says that determination and ambition factor in equally though? I have no doubt that they have some hand in the development, but every test anyone including me has run is that determination and ambition are negligible next to professionalism and nothing I see under your link contradicts that.

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3 minutes ago, Xinetic said:

Thanks for clarifying. Where can I find the statement where it says that determination and ambition factor in equally though? I have no doubt that they have some hand in the development, but every test anyone including me has run is that determination and ambition are negligible next to professionalism and nothing I see under your link contradicts that.

It's in the link that I provided.

Here are two posts specifically: 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

It's in the link that I provided.

Here are two posts specifically: 

 

Hot damn, if I didnt learn something new today. I was really convinced that this is not how it works, but if Seb says it, who am I to argue? Thanks for showing me the light ;)

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Just caught this thread. The discussion seems to focus on the merits of determination and its effect on player development, but still no one has taken up the suggestion that it should be hidden. I don't think it should as its effects are visible on the field. You can watch a match on the TV and see which players' heads have dropped when they concede a goal and which ones keep running, tackling, closing down regardless. That's also an aspect of Determination.

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3 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Just caught this thread. The discussion seems to focus on the merits of determination and its effect on player development, but still no one has taken up the suggestion that it should be hidden. I don't think it should as its effects are visible on the field. You can watch a match on the TV and see which players' heads have dropped when they concede a goal and which ones keep running, tackling, closing down regardless. That's also an aspect of Determination.

A players Temperament would visible in the same way you just described, yet it is a hidden attribute. I do not know if it would make much of a difference, whether Determination is hidden or not, but I do get where the author is coming from.

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