Help with possession in 433

[Mberr]

I need some advice, i'm having some frustration with my 4-3-3. I will explain my tactic, my problems and some general tactic doubts.
 My tactic is based in possession, play out of defense, short passes, work ball into box, high pressure... The basic possession instructions. I have a high line with sk, decent pace cbs... And the problems come here. I'm not conceding too much because of counter attack, which is a risk i'm willing to take. I'm suffering with teams, sometimes worst than my team (R sociedad), dominating the game. I'm just sharing possession and sometimes being 50/50 or less.
 I have good pass and good attacking oriented mentals in my midfield, but they just play the ball too direct. I play a deep lying forward, one inside forward (s) and a winger (sometimes s and sometimes a), but i can't achieve a compact colective team. My wingers don't show up to support the midfield, and the midfield doesn't play back, security passes, to the dm or bpds. I play wing backs (s) but they sometimes can't attack because the team isn't installed in the opposition's half, they don't show up for security passes, they just get caught in counter attacks, without seeing a single one benefit of having a wing back.
 What do you suggest? I don't have a good technique dm (i've bought one, and i'm waiting for the next transfer window), but i have players that could be useful for retaining possession. I tried something like dm (d), dlp(s), b2b-cm(a) - ap(s) with irregular results. The regista + cm (d) didn't work to me, it made me weak against counter attack.
 I'm thinking about playing with fullbacks and maybe use an AP in winger strata.

 Thank you for reading this confusing text. If you don't understand something please ask me. I will continue with a serie of general questions. 

        DLF (S)

W(s).                              If(s)

        B2b.              DLP (S)

 WB(S)               DM (D).       WB (S)

               BPD (D).      BPD(D)

 

Is a formation i used, but the wing backs sometimes are in full back strata, and the mid three are in constant change. I also use the wb right in attack for overlap intentions, obviously, but the lack of support in general is frustrating me and i turned down the attacks duty

[Mberr]

I want to achieve that security pass in the midfield. I want one man behind the ball constantly allowed to receive and recycle and y want a wing back to do a similar task playing out of defense. Is that possible? 

[Mberr]

This is my first post, but i am familiar with the forum, i've readed many threads in my begginning with fm and you helped me a lot

[Mberr]

Now, a general teorical question. Should i make my full backs or wing backs press higher up in a high pressing possession style? Should my cms do too? 

[ozilthegunner]

Lots to unpack here, but just a couple thoughts:

1. BPDs are coded to attempt riskier passes, so they'll cause a decline in possession. You said you use an SK as well. If that is on support, similar issue.

2. You definitely want your FBs in the defensive strata, even if you are going to play them as WBs. Also, if you want them to participate more in build up then an IWB on support would work well. Will move narrow along side the DM to help with buildup and recycling. But will still make the wide run at times.

There are lots of options for the midfield makeup, which partly has to do with the wide forwards and what not. So I won't say anything particular about that, but the above should help a bit

[Mberr]

16 minutes ago, ozilthegunner said:

Lots to unpack here, but just a couple thoughts:

1. BPDs are coded to attempt riskier passes, so they'll cause a decline in possession. You said you use an SK as well. If that is on support, similar issue.

2. You definitely want your FBs in the defensive strata, even if you are going to play them as WBs. Also, if you want them to participate more in build up then an IWB on support would work well. Will move narrow along side the DM to help with buildup and recycling. But will still make the wide run at times.

There are lots of options for the midfield makeup, which partly has to do with the wide forwards and what not. So I won't say anything particular about that, but the above should help a bit

Thank you, i will try it shortly

[Cult of Football Manager]

Possession is calculated by a stopwatch method so your out of possession & transition instructions are important regarding this. In addition your roles and duties when it comes to pressing will also impact this.

I also don't see you list your mentality? Can you screenshot your tactic at all? It's 3:00AM UK time so you might have to wait a few hours for help from the people who can really help you. If your players are that direct with the ball like you say and don't look to retain that could be a mentality and tempo issue?

One match engine issue i've seen often in testing is the CB's don't drop well to create depth when the ball is in the middle third like they would in real life often leaving them exposed to being put under immediate pressure when the ball is played back and then thumping it long or losing it on their first touch sometimes it's even intercepted before they get to it.

The other impact of this is if they don't drop they're easily marked by the opposing centre forward leaving your team with no safe "retain" option back to the nearest centre back which can result in more aggressive behaviour by your player on the ball.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Cult of Football Manager

[Mberr]

I'm currently playing an older version (because i'm now using an older 32 bits computer) and i'm missing "in transition" instructions too much.

 I'm at work now so i can't take a screen right now, but i will do it at home. 

I tried two bpd because i think it would do them more willing to receive the ball from the midfield, but i'm seeing it's not the way it works. 

Maybe a Half back could do it for me? 

[Mberr]

My mentality is control. The fluidity is normally balanced or postive, but i changed to very fluid because i want fluidity off the ball, but i don't know if it really helps

[Mberr]

Maybe a ball magnet higher up in the pitch in support duty could help? 

[13th Man]

Three things -

1-on a positive/control mentality your players will look to take more risks, therefore losing possession more often by trying killer balls and the like. Balanced or even cautious (can’t remember what it was called in older versions) will help you keep possession better. That doesn’t mean you’ll actually be playing defensively though - If your formation, instructions, roles, and duties are still attacking the result will be attacking. I’m playing a very possession heavy save right now and rarely go “positive” as the rest of my tactic is so attacking.

2- The one counter intuitive thing is that sometimes you need to have the passing set to mixed even if you mostly want short. If you actually set it to short and don’t have any players close enough and they’re under pressure they’ll sometimes essentially clear it. Combined with the higher mentality, you also might have players just trying to make things happen rather than playing safe balls. 
3- With that in mind, how close are the players in game? If you’re playing short, you need the players narrow and close together or they’ll be unable to follow your instructions and may go rogue.

[Mberr]

Hi, i didn't sen screens because i applied some of your advice and i was very frustrated. Now my tactic is very different and i'm starting to see good signs. I'm pleased with your advice but, surprisingly, the solution came in a stupid way. I essentialy change two instructions: i tick the play faster (i don't know really if that's the actual name in english) in the goalkeeper distribution. That is making my play out of defence a lot better. It's like "Hurry up GK, pass the ball before the cbs get further forward for no reason". And that is working better. 

 The other instruction i changed is TI. Just unticked "prevent short gk distribution". I observed that the inferior teams that  dominated me rarely played out from the back. They played long and my players are unabled to win that fights. I have a huge déficit of aggression and muscle in my midfield and that's something i need to invest in. My front three are a bit more deeper and my team is denying some spaces. I am using an anchor man too, alongside with AP (a) and b2b, and sometimes they overrun each other, but that is another kind of problem.

 The thing that frustrated me too much was the nonsense. The players had teammates allowed to play short and they just hoofed the ball nonsenseless. That change of mentality and shape of the team helped a lot. Thank you guys

[Mberr]

I know this is a ghost post but i want to reivindicate the importance of the opposition instructions.. After reading a guide i am starting to understand. I'm recovering the ball a lot better than before. In my case, i'm trying to limit the game of the opposition to the central channel, because in a 433 i'm stronger on the center. I do it with close down and with show onto foot. 

I am pressing fairly good the opposition when they play out of defence and limiting a lot their game. They attack with less people and that is reflected in a more confortable situation when we play out of defence

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Mberr

[Mberr]

 

I've made some changes and it's reflecting my idea a lot better. The possession percentaje uses to be arround 55%, but there is parts of the match when we absolutely outplay the opposition and condemn them to long balls. 

I bought two aggressive midfielers box to box type and now our pressing is a lot more effective. I also change the mentality to attacking  because it allows me to press higher up after lost the ball. 

My front three changed too and i think i found simple, functional circuits: 

 the forward who roams and connect with the midfield; the if (a), a natural striker, who runs inside the box aggresively and the wing back (s) who run wider into the space he left empty; the winger, who is on support (if the forward is an aereal threat) or attack if the forward is a short and quick false nine. 

 My tactic has a lot of mistakes, but i'm feelling i know my tactic and i can solve it. I conceded a lot against two strikers counter tactics, but the next time i will try a half back in dm strata and maybe give him a man mark to one of the strikers and see how it goes. 

Some of the recent performances. In case i didn't say it, i play with R Sociedad. 

I beat Real Madrid and Atlético on the first games of the season. We dominated both matches. Both were home matches. 

The two matches i lost in the first six games were against valencia and celta i think. Both played counterattack with two strikers, as i say before. 

 I just lost 1 - 0 vs psg away playing a crazy attacking game and hitting the wood and failing clear cuts like four or five times. I think both teams had the same amount of shots, like 15, but we had more clear cuts. The goal came by a crazy long shot. The guy wasn't unmarked, it was individual genius. Very pleasing despite the loss. 

 This is the feeling i look for in every save and this is why i love this game, despite all the pain (?). 

[Sheikh Amin]

On 26/04/2021 at 22:02, Mberr said:

Thank you, i will try it shortly

For me i don't think the role of tour players matter 

You should check the pass directness and tempo.

The higher these stars the lower your possession so if you want more possession reduce these stats and everything will go well