Hitting a brick wall at English Lower League?

[bigtukker]

I'm managing FC Isle of Man and I've managed to get them to Vanarama National North. I use the DanFM database and it's my first English llm save (at least in years at this level). I'm using a downloaded tactic, because I enjoy the macro managing side of FM more (signing players, upgrading facilities). Now I'm 10 years in and I am in the VNN league for the fourth season. It seems like my reputation stays the same or only raises slightly and I'm always in the bottom when it comes to reputation or expectations. Last three seasons I managed to finish 8th, 9th and 10th with 61, 62 and 61 points respectively. There doesn't seem to be much progress. Anyone else experiencing this? Is this normal? Is this a FM2021 thing?

Edited April 26, 2021 by bigtukker

[Platinum]

I dont think this year is harder than other years.

What I would say is try and identify what the issue is. Are your players not good enough for the league or only low ability players for your league?

Could it be a tactical problem e.g. you concede too much or you dont score enough?

Try and identify the issue and solve it, as simple as that sounds!

 

[Zemahh]

3 hours ago, bigtukker said:

Last three seasons I managed to finish 8th, 9th and 10th with 61, 62 and 61 points respectively. There doesn't seem to be much progress. Anyone else experiencing this? Is this normal? Is this a FM2021 thing?

Likely a personnel issue, downloaded tactics are usually pretty good at making people blitz through the leagues. What kind of players are you signing? Do they fit the tactic you're using? Have you tried utilizing loans? In England, bigger teams will usually happily loan you players that can improve the quality of your squad straight away; if you can get a Premier League Senior Affiliate that does it free of charge, you're golden.

If you're interested, Lollujo has a good video on non-league recruitment:

Also, this post:

Some of the tips are still very much relevant for FM21.

[glengarry224]

First, that's not necessarily bad or good.  Are you finishing mid-table while you develop young players who will now carry you to promotion or earn you big money?  Or are you meandering while your veterans age and you have no one, and no money, to replace them?  Are you making signings which don't pan out?  Are you trying to sign all-around good players -- hard to accomplish at that level -- instead of concentrating on specific attributes/personalities which will work in your system? 

Also, it's hard to answer without knowing which types of games you are losing and why.  Or what your tactics are.  Are inferior teams drawing with you?  Losing only to better teams?  Are you failing to score or defend?  Which types of goals are you giving up?  Set pieces, counters, crosses?

Sometimes you have to update your tactics in higher divisions.  For example, a higher defensive line might work in the lowest divisions but you might not have the backline speed as you move up.  Or, playing from the back might have worked before, but now superior teams are pressing you and  intercepting in your third.  Usually, most opponent goals come from possessions which start in your half or on counters.  If you're getting burned on crosses, you might have to play wider on defense, add a DM who helps cover the flanks, and/or make sure that your fullbacks don't charge forward.

If you want to finish near the top, a rough benchmark for the Vanarama North league is a rating of '9' for key attributes.  At that level, for each role/duty, concentrate more on the relevant physical attributes and a few key non-physical attributes.  For all positions, Acc, Work, Brav, otb/pos (otb for attackers, pos for defenders).  Then key attributes by position, for example:

CBs = str/ju/he/wr/acc/br/pos

if your CBs have lower acc than opposing strikers, you will get burned if you play a higher DL; if your CBs have inferior ju/he/st, you will have trouble playing a narrow defense or a lower DL.  For all other green/blue highlighted attributes, avoid going below '7'.

Against superior teams, might be good to play a compact, counter-attacking style.  Depends upon where your talent is, of course.  If you can't afford to buy talent which competes with the top teams, you need to scout how they score goals and make tactical tweaks.

[kentonizking]

13 hours ago, Zemahh said:

Likely a personnel issue, downloaded tactics are usually pretty good at making people blitz through the leagues. What kind of players are you signing? Do they fit the tactic you're using? Have you tried utilizing loans? In England, bigger teams will usually happily loan you players that can improve the quality of your squad straight away; if you can get a Premier League Senior Affiliate that does it free of charge, you're golden.

If you're interested, Lollujo has a good video on non-league recruitment:

Also, this post:

Some of the tips are still very much relevant for FM21.

Check out Zealand Channel on YouTube too 

[bigtukker]

13 hours ago, Zemahh said:

Likely a personnel issue

Yeah probably. Problem is that it's difficult finding players who actually want to play here because of my lacking reputation

Downloaded tactics are usually pretty good at making people blitz through the leagues. What kind of players are you signing? Do they fit the tactic you're using? Have you tried utilizing loans?

I've tried finding loans, but the ones who are willing to come aren't really better than what I already have

In England, bigger teams will usually happily loan you players that can improve the quality of your squad straight away; if you can get a Premier League Senior Affiliate that does it free of charge, you're golden.

My board doesn't want a Senior Affiliate. I ask every year. At least twice.

If you're interested, Lollujo has a good video on non-league recruitment:

Yeah, I've done the DoF thing. Maybe I should do it more often

Also, this post:

Some of the tips are still very much relevant for FM21.

 

9 hours ago, glengarry224 said:

Thanks for the Reply

First, that's not necessarily bad or good.  Are you finishing mid-table while you develop young players who will now carry you to promotion or earn you big money? 

Bit of a mixed bag. I don't think my facilities are currently good enough to develop players reliably so I prefer signing players who can make an immediate impact (money is rarely the problem at the moment)

Or are you meandering while your veterans age and you have no one, and no money, to replace them?  Are you making signings which don't pan out?  Are you trying to sign all-around good players -- hard to accomplish at that level -- instead of concentrating on specific attributes/personalities which will work in your system? 

I tend to concentrate on certain attributes when scouting/signing players:

Wingbacks (Pace/Acceleration/Tackling/Marking/Position, preferably acceptable Crossing too)
CB (See WB's + Heading + Jumping Reach)
CM (Depending on role but at least good Mentals and good Passing/First Touch)
Wingers (Pace/Accelaration/Technique + Crossing, Passing, First Touch, Dribbling (not necessarily all 4 of them)
Strikers (either Pace + Acceleration or Strength/Balance, Dribbling or Finishing, also Off the Ball)

Also, it's hard to answer without knowing which types of games you are losing and why.  Or what your tactics are.  Are inferior teams drawing with you?  Losing only to better teams?  Are you failing to score or defend?  Which types of goals are you giving up?  Set pieces, counters, crosses?

I doubt my tactics are the problem. Comparatively my players are on the bottom of the foodchain and I'm consequently predicted deadlast (usually 500-1)

Sometimes you have to update your tactics in higher divisions. 

I did change tactic lately so I need to see if that does the trick. I usually decide beforehand what kind of tactic I want and then I look for a tactic online which puts them in FM so to speak. (For example I want to play 4-5-1 with certain roles and I look for a tactic that more or less does that)

For example, a higher defensive line might work in the lowest divisions but you might not have the backline speed as you move up.  Or, playing from the back might have worked before, but now superior teams are pressing you and  intercepting in your third.  Usually, most opponent goals come from possessions which start in your half or on counters.  If you're getting burned on crosses, you might have to play wider on defense, add a DM who helps cover the flanks, and/or make sure that your fullbacks don't charge forward.

If you want to finish near the top, a rough benchmark for the Vanarama North league is a rating of '9' for key attributes.  At that level, for each role/duty, concentrate more on the relevant physical attributes and a few key non-physical attributes.  For all positions, Acc, Work, Brav, otb/pos (otb for attackers, pos for defenders).  Then key attributes by position, for example:

CBs = str/ju/he/wr/acc/br/pos

if your CBs have lower acc than opposing strikers, you will get burned if you play a higher DL; if your CBs have inferior ju/he/st, you will have trouble playing a narrow defense or a lower DL. 

Yeah, I know. I try to limit myself to fast CB's.

For all other green/blue highlighted attributes, avoid going below '7'.

Thanks for the reply

 

 

[Zemahh]

1 hour ago, bigtukker said:

I've tried finding loans, but the ones who are willing to come aren't really better than what I already have

Have you tried using the Team Report method on clubs from 2-3 tiers above you? Usually the easiest method to find loans in lower leagues.

Once you sign two or three decent players, more players will become interested in joining you, since the quality of your squad improved.

I also recommend you keep checking for Free Agents constantly, since players tend to become more desperate the longer they're without a club.

[Baodan]

18 hours ago, bigtukker said:

Wingbacks (Pace/Acceleration/Tackling/Marking/Position, preferably acceptable Crossing too)
CB (See WB's + Heading + Jumping Reach)

What kind of tactic requires CBs to have acceptable crossing attribute? I'm very much intrigued to hear more.

[bigtukker]

14 hours ago, Baodan said:

What kind of tactic requires CBs to have acceptable crossing attribute? I'm very much intrigued to hear more.

Oops, that slipped through. CBs don't need crossing. Passing would be nice though.

 

Also I tried to topscorers from two divisions below. They still don't want to come because of the financial package even though my wage budget is pretty good. 

Edited April 28, 2021 by bigtukker

[phd_angel]

If you've been using the same tactic for three seasons, then it's likely that the league (AI) may have figured you out. Time to tweak things a bit to create some confusion.

[phnompenhandy]

On 26/04/2021 at 23:22, bigtukker said:

Anyone else experiencing this? Is this normal? Is this a FM2021 thing?

It's pretty normal. I'm a Lower League manager, using Dan's files every year. I normally start c level 20 and never get as high as you, but during lockdown on FM19 I've started at Level 13 and am now in The Championship, the highest I've ever been in over 2 decades playing this game!

 

So from my experience I can say this: below Vanarama Regional level, progression is a breeze - mainly because SI haven't set up the game for those levels and there's little difference in quality between Level 7 and level 17 players. Once in VNN/S it gets serious. Each promotion is a hurdle that requires a lot of thought and changes. I got promoted into The Championship over a week ago and I've played 4 actual matches in that time as I've been pouring over every tactical tweak to get my side to stop losing!

So you've got to think hard about recruitment, training, and especially tactics. Tactics that worked perfectly in the lower division will not work when against better opposition. Each season I had to shift a little more from gung-ho adventurous football to more patient and cautious. I've tightened up at the back with a 5-3-2 formation, but I'm still finding that every year my strikers find it harder and harder to score. In the lowest leagues half your goals come from defensive blunders but that dries up at the level you've reached, so you need to think harder.

Do you actually play and watch every game? For me from levels 13 to 7 I set up my system in pre-season and Instant Resulted through about 60% of matches as they were so predictable. I had to stop that and play every game, making in-game tweaks to respond to circumstances. It makes every tiny victory - holding out for that 0-0 or holding on to that 1-0 all the more sweeter for how tough the challenge becomes.

Another thing I do is use all the money we get in demanding facility improvements from the board. I need my regens youth intake to be as good as can be to bring some through into my first team. It's heartbreaking when you spend 5 years nurturing a great academy prospect only for your board to overrule you and sell them, but at least I get something out of it.

And at that level, put your best efforts into progressing in the FA Cup. Twice I got to the third round and got smashed by Everton followed by Sheff United. Those pay days were beneficial in the extreme!