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I need help I've always been a fan of guardiola but I struggle to get 600+ passes when trying to recreate the 2-3-5 in fm 21 the most I seem to get on average is like 400 - 580 passes a game. Been watching a lot of premier and when I check passes completed for peps city every time they play they always have like 650 + passes a game except against bielsa. Anyone got any tactics that recreate the 235?  

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Football manager and real football are 2 different things, when you play football manager, you are playing according to SI's rules and the limitations in the game so it's impossible to completely replicate a real football tactic.

I'm not trying to say that you can't get more passes in the game but at the same time 580 is pretty comparable to 600 or 650 so I wouldn't bother too much about stats

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This is one of those things that I don't think translates 1:1 between real life and game. Basically less passes in game would be equivalent to more in real life, at least in my opinion as someone who has spent obscene amounts of time on possession/tiki taka tactics.

There's also a breaking point where you could nudge the numbers higher but you would be doing so at the expense of attacking effectievness, which is a poor trade.

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13 hours ago, Axzel said:

I need help I've always been a fan of guardiola but I struggle to get 600+ passes when trying to recreate the 2-3-5 in fm 21 the most I seem to get on average is like 400 - 580 passes a game. Been watching a lot of premier and when I check passes completed for peps city every time they play they always have like 650 + passes a game except against bielsa. Anyone got any tactics that recreate the 235?  

While I agree with the previous comments that it's virtually impossible to literally replicate everything from real-life football in FM, I would still like to see a screenshot of your tactic. Because otherwise none can tell you if there is anything you can do to improve/increase those passing stats or not. 

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16 hours ago, Axzel said:

I need help I've always been a fan of guardiola but I struggle to get 600+ passes when trying to recreate the 2-3-5 in fm 21 the most I seem to get on average is like 400 - 580 passes a game. Been watching a lot of premier and when I check passes completed for peps city every time they play they always have like 650 + passes a game except against bielsa. Anyone got any tactics that recreate the 235?  

Don’t forget, that football is always about 2 teams against each other. So it’s not only you to determin how many passes your team is completing, but also the way the other team plays. 

Im not a football manager, but I guess pep does not instruct his players to make a certain amount of passes. It rather is a product of their style of play.

From what I know peps teams share positional responsibilities fluidly. The Playfield is divided into 5 channels, including wide areas, central area and both half spaces, where at least 1 player does occupy that space. There are at max 2 players in each channel vertically though. 

so just from the basic setup you will have to use a lot of support duties and roles who occupy half spaces. If combined with instructions focussing on pure penetration by the ball including shots, crosses and very direct passes to a lesser extend and therefore use instructions that take more risks from passes, playermovement and creativity, you should be well set up to replicate pep style most likely

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5 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

While I agree with the previous comments that it's virtually impossible to literally replicate everything from real-life football in FM, I would still like to see a screenshot of your tactic. Because otherwise none can tell you if there is anything you can do to improve/increase those passing stats or not. 

This is how I set up. I know Koba is injured but it's just so you guys can see my usual starting 11. Hopefully you guys can give me some tips and criticism so I can try to play like pep. I was also watching Barcelona play a few weeks ago and they have possessions where they pass the ball like 60 times all short passes before finally breaking thru. In fm 21 my player always do like 15 passes and then blast the ball lmao it gets me mad. When klopp was dominating the league with gegenpress fm team really implemented his philosophies into the match engine making teams like liverpool and man utd crazy good idk why they didn't implement peps style if play into the engine when he dominated the league I just don't want to be forced to use gegenpress to win games. 

20210423_130423.jpg

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13 hours ago, DarJ said:

Football manager and real football are 2 different things, when you play football manager, you are playing according to SI's rules and the limitations in the game so it's impossible to completely replicate a real football tactic.

I'm not trying to say that you can't get more passes in the game but at the same time 580 is pretty comparable to 600 or 650 so I wouldn't bother too much about stats

I get you I just feel the si team can do so much more in terms of possession when klopp dominated the league they implemented his gegenpress philosophies in the game making liverpool and other teams that used it unstoppable yet when pep dominated the league they never implemented his philosophies I get it's harder to recreate peps but idk it seems they don't try or they don't care about possesion football because people say its dying and everything is modern. I just don't like how the si team kinda forced you to play gegenpress to win. I've won the league with some mid table teams just using gegenpress hur I can't say the same when I try to win the league with possession football. 

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In previous versions, the main limiter in trying to implement that specific style of play is how pressing worked in the match engine (both are aggressive pressing systems but have fundamental differences) - changes made with 21 have been a step in the right direction but not quite there yet.

I don't really get the "they don't care about possession football vibe" though. Pep's system (especially Barcelona, as many oft are inspired by) is a very demanding one and the game takes that cue as well with attribute requirements. You can dominate just fine but you need the quality players for it. Trying to play tiki taka with a side that doesn't have suitable players should get punished accordingly if anything.

Lastly you're not really forced to play gegenpress. A lot of us here don't!

Edited by NotSoSpecialOne
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10 minutes ago, Axzel said:

20210423_130423.jpg

 

10 minutes ago, Axzel said:

This is how I set up

Exactly as I was expecting - your tactic is the major problem. Here is why.

First, the setup of roles and duties is the most important element of any tactic - not instructions. So if you want to play possession-heavy football with a really high number of completed passes (and possession in general), then the first thing you need to make sure is that your setup of roles and duties as a whole - because roles work through interaction - is conducive to such tactical style (possession-oriented in this case).

And with the crossing-heavy winger role on each flank, the potential possession-friendliness of your tactical setup is already compromised - and even more so when they are both played on the attacking duty. So one source of your tactical problem has just been identified within your setup of roles and duties.

Let's now see your instructions (except for the out-possession ones, which unfortunately cannot be seen in the screenshot you provided)... 

Using such an extremely high number of instructions is never a good idea btw, but let's here focus only on those that directly pertain to your specific issue. While on one hand you use very possession-friendly instructions such as much shorter passing, much lower tempo, play out of defense and work ball into box, you are at the same time also using extremely wide attacking width, which is clearly not a possession-friendly instruction - moreover, it could be even considered anti-possession in a sense.

Therefore, we have two different areas of your tactic that are potentially preventing you from having a higher number of successful/completed passes - one pertains to your role selection, and the other to a particular instruction.

You may now think it's "only 2 things", so it should not affect the tactic that much. But believe me - when it comes to tactics and tactical creation, even one single element of a tactic can make a huge difference (whether for the better or worse), let alone two or more. 

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29 minutes ago, Axzel said:

This is how I set up. I know Koba is injured but it's just so you guys can see my usual starting 11. Hopefully you guys can give me some tips and criticism so I can try to play like pep. I was also watching Barcelona play a few weeks ago and they have possessions where they pass the ball like 60 times all short passes before finally breaking thru. In fm 21 my player always do like 15 passes and then blast the ball lmao it gets me mad. When klopp was dominating the league with gegenpress fm team really implemented his philosophies into the match engine making teams like liverpool and man utd crazy good idk why they didn't implement peps style if play into the engine when he dominated the league I just don't want to be forced to use gegenpress to win games. 

20210423_130423.jpg

There's a lot to unpack here. Haven't got too much time but I'm afraid you've got almost everything wrong unfortunately.

I'll make a longer post later, but for now..

1. Much shorter passing + extremely wide is a big no no. Add in the fact that you're using positive mentality which further raises base width, and it's no surprise you can't reach the passing numbers you want. Man city play strictly 5-10 yard passes in their build up play. Extremely wide TI exhorts players to use the full width of the pitch. Not just standing there, but passing there as soon as possible.  With long passes.

2. Be more disciplined + dribble less?

I'd argue you should have neither of these instructions. City's pass first mentality comes from the fact that they observe excellent positional play. They have options everywhere so they are free to make the ball do the work. In FM, those awful solo runs you see your wingers and wingbacks do are solely caused by a lack of options caused by poor role and duty allocation and a poor tactical setup, which is also unfortunately the case here. City players, from Jesus to Mahrez to Bernardo to even KDB and Walker(yes, running in a straight line past your opponent counts) dribble profusely when the time is right.

3. Anchor man 

Don't really need to go into details here, I imagine. But watching Rodri and Ferna ping beautiful diagonals around the pitch.. They are no mere water carriers. They also position themselves rather high when play has reached the final third.

4. AMLR attack duty wingers + underlap.

Not sure I need to say much here either. I'm sure you're well aware of how much width AMLR attack duty wingers observe in the final third... Basically very little lol. There's no space for them to find an underlapper inside because they are staying so narrow trying to run in on goal in the first place. If you want real, Peplike width, you'll need quite a few changes.

 

Don't wanna make the post too long here so I'll stop for now. I'd wager you should watch a couple more full City games to get a better understanding of their likely roles and duties, as well as accurate team instructions you can better translate into the tactical creator.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

In previous versions, the main limiter in trying to implement that specific style of play is how pressing worked in the match engine (both are aggressive pressing systems but have fundamental differences) - changes made with 21 have been a step in the right direction but not quite there yet.

I don't really get the "they don't care about possession football vibe" though. Pep's system (especially Barcelona, as many oft are inspired by) is a very demanding one and the game takes that cue as well with attribute requirements. You can dominate just fine but you need the quality players for it. Trying to play tiki taka with a side that doesn't have suitable players should get punished accordingly if anything.

Lastly you're not really forced to play gegenpress. A lot of us here don't!

Didn't mean it as in they don't care about the game cause obviously they work really hard on the game I meant it more as in once klopp started dominating they really focused on implementing that style which in turn overpowered a lot of teams. 

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1 minute ago, Ripamon said:

There's a lot to unpack here. Haven't got too much time but I'm afraid you've got almost everything wrong unfortunately.

I'll make a longer post later, but for now..

1. Much shorter passing + extremely wide is a big no no. Add in the fact that you're using positive mentality which further raises base width, and it's no surprise you can't reach the passing numbers you want. Man city play strictly 5-10 yard passes in their build up play. Extremely wide TI exhorts players to use the full width of the pitch. Not just standing there, but passing there as soon as possible.  With long passes.

2. Be more disciplined + dribble less?

I'd argue you should have neither of these instructions. City's pass first mentality comes from the fact that they observe excellent positional play. They have options everywhere so they are free to make the ball do the work. In FM, those awful solo runs you see your wingers and wingbacks do are solely caused by a lack of options caused by poor role and duty allocation and a poor tactical setup, which is also unfortunately the case here. City players, from Jesus to Mahrez to Bernardo to even KDB and Walker(yes, running in a straight line past your opponent counts) dribble profusely when the time is right.

3. Anchor man 

Don't really need to go into details here, I imagine. But watching Rodri and Ferna ping beautiful diagonals around the pitch.. They are no mere water carriers. They also position themselves rather high when play has reached the final third.

4. AMLR attack duty wingers + underlap.

Not sure I need to say much here either. I'm sure you're well aware of how much width AMLR attack duty wingers observe in the final third... Basically very little lol. There's no space for them to find an underlapper inside because they are staying so narrow trying to run in on goal in the first place. If you want real, Peplike width, you'll need quite a few changes.

 

Don't wanna make the post too long here so I'll stop for now. I'd wager you should watch a couple more full City games to get a better understanding of their likely roles and duties, as well as accurate team instructions you can better translate into

Sheesh guess I got it all wrong 🤣🤣 Good looking out tho always willing to learn 

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I was waiting for the replies from all you guys but I played a game with the same tactic but changing it to support duties and I had 650 passes and won 2-0 maybe that's one of the reasons I thought I was doing it all right. What would you do if you were trying to recreate the 433 - 235?? I just started playing when fm 20 dropped too so that's probably why I don't know a lot about roles and the engine 

20210423_140551.jpg

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1 hour ago, Axzel said:

What would you do if you were trying to recreate the 433 - 235??

Assuming that I manage a strong team that can afford to play that way (like Pep's City for example), this is one possible example of how I could set up that kind of tactic:

F9

IFat                                  IWsu

APsu    MEZat

HB

WBsu   CDde  BPDde  IWBsu

SKde

When it comes to instructions, I always start with just basic ones and then make small gradual tweaks as I see fit (but only if really necessary):

mentality - positive

in possession - PoD, shorter passing

in transition - counter-press

out of possession - much higher D-line, higher LOE + split block

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I tried to play with much short passing and much higher tempo. Having the possession isn't the problem but the lack of quality chances is. The xG is always higher than the goals scored but the quality of each shot is low. I had 23 shots with 10 on targets. After viewing each shot, it turns out most shots are headed shots from wingbacks crosses. And as the replies above said, the winger didn't really provide much space for midfielders to run into. You may need to add hold position to each winger to make sure the maintain the width. Everytime we move the ball closer to the goal, the wingers are tuck inside even when they're on Wingers(Attack).

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On 24/04/2021 at 00:10, Experienced Defender said:

Assuming that I manage a strong team that can afford to play that way (like Pep's City for example), this is one possible example of how I could set up that kind of tactic:

F9

IFat                                  IWsu

APsu    MEZat

HB

WBsu   CDde  BPDde  IWBsu

SKde

When it comes to instructions, I always start with just basic ones and then make small gradual tweaks as I see fit (but only if really necessary):

mentality - positive

in possession - PoD, shorter passing

in transition - counter-press

out of possession - much higher D-line, higher LOE + split block

Just out of curiosity, as pep likes to use all 5 channels, who is holding the width on the right side? according to the in game role descriptions the mezz likes to operate in the half space as does an inverted winger.

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IW occupies the wide space and only moves inside with the ball. 
IWB will occupy wide space when the half space is occupied by another player as he has the creative freedom hardcoded to do so. 

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2 hours ago, Hilly1979 said:

Just out of curiosity, as pep likes to use all 5 channels, who is holding the width on the right side? according to the in game role descriptions the mezz likes to operate in the half space as does an inverted winger

My example was not specifically about a Pep replication. Instead, here  is what I wrote: 

 

On 24/04/2021 at 01:10, Experienced Defender said:

Assuming that I manage a strong team that can afford to play that way (like Pep's City for example)

Phrase "like Pep's City" does not pertain to a replication, but to the quality and strength of that team in the sense that it can play attack-minded and possession-heavy football. My bad, as I put the phrase within brackets in a wrong part of the sentence :thup:

Anyway, when it comes to a Pepstyle replication, Rashidi's Liquid 4123 is still the best example I've seen thus far. 

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2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

My example was not specifically about a Pep replication. Instead, here  is what I wrote: 

 

Phrase "like Pep's City" does not pertain to a replication, but to the quality and strength of that team in the sense that it can play attack-minded and possession-heavy football. My bad, as I put the phrase within brackets in a wrong part of the sentence :thup:

Anyway, when it comes to a Pepstyle replication, Rashidi's Liquid 4123 is still the best example I've seen thus far. 

Sorry my bad, as the op was asking for advice on peps 2-3-5 I thought your  replication was on that basis

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I was contemplating whether to join this discussion but I now feel i've read enough to add my bit.

 

First off if you're happy with your set up ( and comparing it to my testing I would expect your 2-3 set up for the build up phase should be fine in terms of roles and duties? ) Then that's the most important thing. For me personally i've never cared what it looks like in the tactics creator it's about what i'm seeing in the match engine & how the tactic is playing.

I personally haven't found a way to fully recreate it yet I'm still testing & you're more then likely going to have to cut one corner to get another for an example playing with CM's in the CM slots or strata is where most of us would put City's central midfield players in the tactics creator. The problem i've found even with Mezzala or CM on attack duties is that they don't appear to get high enough early enough in the build up phase & don't look to threaten the gap between the FB & CB early enough. Combining this with wingers who like to run with the ball means you end up with very little realism in terms of the movements, combinations and patterns from Pep's City. - The other issue with them in this slot is out of possession they take a lot longer to press the opposition CB's  meaning the opposition CB's and GK can make a few passes between them before they are pressed into playing it long which can negatively impact your possession statistic which i'll come back to in a second.

Also having the attacking wide players in the LW/RW slots on support appear to make them drop too far from the front line in the build up & the only role that you can have stay wider, Hold position & Not have run with ball often preset is the inside forward I believe ? I've resorted to Wide midfielders on attack duty and with run with ball often as they still look to dribble a lot less then with IW or W in the higher strata from what i've found.

 

The first issue i see in your specific case is what exactly are you trying to replicate? You mention statistics If it's statistics that matter to you such as 65% Possession and 650 passes completed then some investigation is required to how the match engine records stats such as this. ( Unless it's been updated & if it has the following would be wrong ) Football Manager records possession the old formula of literally time of possession on a stop clock. This formula changed in real life around 2010 I believe by Opta who provide stats for the premier league whereby they record it in a mathematical formula based on the teams total of completed passes divided by the overall amount calculating the average. I remember reading they had looked at updated it again since using this but also factoring in some other areas but I don't remember reading if they did eventually go through with it. 

Also in my City save I was looking closely at statistics with my recreation and you have to accept that things are very different from the real world to FM here's an example of what I found I'll just quote what I said to save time "  Arsenal in my FM game have the most Dribbles per game at 5.24. In real life the last completed season ( 2019 - 2020 ) the highest team had 13.4 dribbles per game and the LOWEST team had 6.5 dribbles per game according to whoscored.  

I also posted an example of calculating possession in a few of my games in the passes completed formula and it worked out in most games if it was calculated like this that I would have been 2% better off then what was recorded in game. If you carry that across the season I'll end up 2% down from where I would have been in real life. Again showing statistical comparisons have to be taken in context. Whoscored right this second have City at 61.2% for what its worth ( i'm not entirely sure how they calculate it )  which is definitely achievable in FM even in the Premier League.

I Just in my testing recently played a game against Everton which showed promise but i fear the same issues described above.

 

Tactic:

 

67074729_Screenshot2021-04-25at14_09_08.png.12bd37f4291684ed1b353d9c64795109.png

 

 

 

Here in this clip we can see exactly this. Sterling picks it up no where near the back line and is actually pressed by the winger of their team not the full back and then the RCM makes no attempt to make a threatening run BEYOND the backline which is my biggest annoyance in the match engine.

This is our first goal now notice at the start of the move LCM looks to start moving then stops this is partly to my LB's overlap yes but also the F-9 in review pulls over into the gap we want to exploit with the CM's so maybe I need to take roam from position off him? or change the role? I also have no idea why sterling is so deep or so narrow but there we are!

 

This is actually a bit of both. You can see the wide players and CM's are far too deep. If the wide players drop that deep the CM's should be looking to get off of their line vertically ahead of them but they don't. After the LW dribbles with the ball though a bit further ahead we get the exact combination of movements we're looking for.

 

And lastly this image sums it up perfectly

870771721_Screenshot2021-04-25at13_06_57.png.5a23a8fc0d0aba2c6e2993fa9b9fcda6.png

 

I won't go into anymore this post will be long enough as it is, i just wanted to show examples of what i'm referring to but at half time I switched the W-S to IW-S to see if we got a little more combination play from the wide players with the CM's and eventually changed the LCM to CM-A around 60 minutes. This is how it ended.

1533849783_Screenshot2021-04-25at13_04_06.png.7a9fa02c3e39c0532d2288414dcf9516.png

 

This was the goal in the second half I think it actually looked and played a lot better with IW-S they seemed to look to link more often then the W-S with this current set up. The goal comes about with the LCM eventually threatening the gap and although the ball doesn't go to him he makes the movement and we retain well before getting a 1v1 then going around the back line.

 

 

I personally ended up tweaking a 4-3-3 set up similar to the one above into a set up where the wide players in my front 3 are in the midfield strata/slots and the cm's are in the AM strata/slots. Because of this i got some of the patterns I wanted to see but its ugly in the tactics creator and also the 2 attacking central midfield players then don't defend properly. They almost press as a front 3 with the striker and take a while to get back and defend with the CDM. So it's not a better solution it just got me a different outcome. The WM-A also doesn't quite stay wide enough for long enough but on attack duty is still a threat and appeared from my testing to be as far forwards as the IW or W on S duties in the higher strata both in patterns and in average positions after the game.

I'm not happy with my outcome i'd prefer to abandon it and have a more orthodox 4-3-3 set up and get the same success & outcomes but so far i've found it hard to find anything better that gets success in replication from a statistical point of view ( Possession ) and also the movements and combinations to penetrate the back 4 specifically.

 

 

 I'm not a FM expert, FM match engine or tactics creator expert I just happen to have studied city a little in real life. I post this as discussion pieces not to tell anyone i'm right or they're wrong.

I've Played FM a long time & I have attempted recreations before but I mostly played to win and win as often & as early as possible regardless of realism or anything else which is why I absolutely do not claim to be an expert on the match engine or tactics creator!

 

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5 hours ago, CARRERA said:

@Cult of Football Manageryou should properbly start your own thread if you are looking for some advice. Its a way too good post to just dump it into someone else thread.

I agree with you, just cannot see where exactly @Cult of Football Manager asked for advice in his comment?

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  • 3 weeks later...

Honestly, football manager just can't replicate pep's system. The drawback of pep being a genius is that it is probably going to take the team at SI 5-10 years to truly crack what pep is doing currently. Even manchester city play completely different in football manager than they do in real life.

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48 minutes ago, hotrod4490 said:

Honestly, football manager just can't replicate pep's system. The drawback of pep being a genius is that it is probably going to take the team at SI 5-10 years to truly crack what pep is doing currently. Even manchester city play completely different in football manager than they do in real life.

No, I disagree. Yes the match engine has some difficulties simulating some of the concepts in peps philosophy, for example the principle of extreme width and height in the wingers, and the fluidity of interchanging positions. 

Besides that, I think it does a dang good job and there are people here who have managed to achieve rather satisfactory Pep replications..

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21 minutes ago, Ripamon said:

No, I disagree. Yes the match engine has some difficulties simulating some of the concepts in peps philosophy, for example the principle of extreme width and height in the wingers, and the fluidity of interchanging positions. 

Besides that, I think it does a dang good job and there are people here who have managed to achieve rather satisfactory Pep replications..

I think you can build something close and I think you can build certain city tactics that pep utilizes. For instance you can already build the 4-2-3-1 with rodri and fernandinho plus mendy as an overlapping full back in the current match engine. Also, I know it gets cited a lot but I think Rashidi is very close to the 4-3-3 with high and wide wingers and I think cult of football manager has done some amazing things as well. However, the high and wide wingers is something that makes pep unique, especially at the moment. The wingers playing so high and wide is what allows the central midfielders to play as inside forwards. Without that the I think for the time being we are stuck with pep replications from his time at barcelona.

I stand by what I said however about how it should tell us something that city in football manager do not play in real life which means even the developers probably recognize the limitations of the game. By contrast, liverpool play exactly like their real life counterparts down to every single role.

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42 minutes ago, hotrod4490 said:

I think you can build something close and I think you can build certain city tactics that pep utilizes. For instance you can already build the 4-2-3-1 with rodri and fernandinho plus mendy as an overlapping full back in the current match engine. Also, I know it gets cited a lot but I think Rashidi is very close to the 4-3-3 with high and wide wingers and I think cult of football manager has done some amazing things as well. However, the high and wide wingers is something that makes pep unique, especially at the moment. The wingers playing so high and wide is what allows the central midfielders to play as inside forwards. Without that the I think for the time being we are stuck with pep replications from his time at barcelona.

I stand by what I said however about how it should tell us something that city in football manager do not play in real life which means even the developers probably recognize the limitations of the game. By contrast, liverpool play exactly like their real life counterparts down to every single role.

The Winger problem has little to do with Peps system and more to do with the wide forwards inability to keep width in the final third regardless of role or duty. It's something that has been complained shot on these boards since before Pep made his mark at City 

Like this for example https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/405323-wingers-staying-wide/

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I don't think wingers width is a big deal if you are playing wide yeah they will move inside too early but there are more important things that stop FM being able to replicate real tactics. There's very little consistency with tactics you will dominate possession in one game with 700 passes and in next game you will be totally outpassed just because ai played with different mentality/passing/tempo combination. It's easier to play and dominate possession away against Liverpool than at home vs team that playes short passing defensive style. It's unbelievable how good these teams keep possession finishing match with 90 percent passing rate. This wasn't the case in older games at least it wasn't so extreme. Or for example I had no idea wingers will cut inside beautifully on balanced mentality and they will do it all the time play on positive and it's goodbye cutting in. 

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I am locking the thread before it gets moved in a completely unwanted/trolling direction, especially since even the OP seems no longer interested in it. 

@Axzel If you come back to this thread and want it to be reopened, please let me know :thup:

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