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Football Manager 2021 Official Feedback Thread


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45 minutes ago, El Capitan said:

In real life this kind of stuff happens once or twice a season if that... in my game its like 4-8 games a season.

lel. 

Manchester City 2-2 Tottenham - Premier League 2019/2020 - Match Report (whoscored.com)
Manchester City 0-2 Wolverhampton Wanderers - Premier League 2019/2020 - Match Report (whoscored.com)
Norwich 3-2 Manchester City - Premier League 2019/2020 - Match Report (whoscored.com)
Newcastle United 2-2 Manchester City - Premier League 2019/2020 - Match Report (whoscored.com)
Tottenham 2-0 Manchester City - Premier League 2020/2021 - Match Report (whoscored.com)
Manchester City 1-2 Manchester United - Premier League 2019/2020 - Match Report (whoscored.com)

 

The game has a few better stats than shots now, speaking of which.. Just how unlucky are Brighton? Expected goals analysis of Graham Potter's side (sportinglife.com)

There's also in-game expected Point tables, which can give somewhat of a clue as to how much luck or bad luck is at work for any given season (AI managers can underperform this by as much as 15 points, e.g. they dropped 15 points in matches where they had the better xG value). 

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13 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Ok well i did say i was probably talking bollocks. :D

I let the frustration get the better of me and went off on a stupid rant, apologies.

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8 hours ago, El Capitan said:

Ok well i did say i was probably talking bollocks. :D

I let the frustration get the better of me and went off on a stupid rant, apologies.

Nah you’re right. This game is littered with inexplicable goals, missed chances, crazy decisions and results. Its a charmless game. Just lost 4-1 away to Southampton as Spurs with a 4-1-2-2-1 formation. Neutral slightly defensive. One down after 2 mins when Eric dier walked away from che adams in box. 2-1 down when my entire team was in opposition half and they countered (ball wasn’t even in opp box) even though I set to slightly deep DL. 
some tactics experts will say I should have man marked their two strikers, others will say I should never do that. 

it’s a random game. Decided by total OP with split decisions made on the whim of a worsening ME.

FM continues to go backwards from its peak. There is a total lack of logic which makes it impossible to really understand tactics.

the game on iPad is a disgrace. Highlights taken away, h/t often skips so you can’t do proper analysis, you can’t click on players in ME to find out who they are. That’s just a snapshot of the problems which the developers said they won’t help with 😂 
 

SI in hubris. Can’t wait for some competition!

 

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Was there any updates lately?

 

Because from beginning I have only 2 goals allowed when watching VAR but in last couple of games I had three goals allowed when watching VAR.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Bakiano said:

Was there any updates lately?

 

Because from beginning I have only 2 goals allowed when watching VAR but in last couple of games I had three goals allowed when watching VAR.

 

 

Nothing that would have the slightest effect on the ME.

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Is it true that AI teams can't reject a loan deal they've already accepted? Etc if the player is already at that club?

 

Would explain why I'm able to loan a plaster for 4-5 years in a row season upon season...

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Anybody have any idea how to continue the MLS draft when it physically will not let you draft any players? 

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19 hours ago, Domoboy23 said:

Is it true that AI teams can't reject a loan deal they've already accepted? Etc if the player is already at that club?

 

Would explain why I'm able to loan a plaster for 4-5 years in a row season upon season...

I don’t think so. Have had plenty of young loanees parent club reject more seasons loans. Usually with “we want to give him a chance in the first team” as the reason.

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Posted (edited)

Anyone know what the icon 'Player Sale Handling' means? Not seen it before:

image.png.3f87f256f91c4971af377d188f1c71f4.png

Edited by rdbayly
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I don't know if the makers of FM have a deal with Man U or something, but its staggering how every single game they make Man U  way too good.

Its ridiculous. 

Playing them at old Trafford is like playing Brazil 1970 and stop making Martial the next CR7. He isn't

 

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Posted (edited)

Will one of the Developers please tell me that the "Were you happy to see (your player) scoring for his country" question has already been removed for FM 22?

 

Please?

Edited by Heywood JaBlowme
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1 hour ago, Heywood JaBlowme said:

Will one of the Developers please tell me that the "Were happy to see (your player) scoring for his country" question has already been removed for FM 22?

 

Please?

This question is absolutely absurd and needs to be removed entirely, perhaps aside from extremely talented kids who the media would be all over. Getting asked about my 27 year old wingers 6th goal for Croatia is beyond tiresome. 

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4 hours ago, Roncatto99 said:

I don't know if the makers of FM have a deal with Man U or something, but its staggering how every single game they make Man U  way too good.

Its ridiculous. 

Playing them at old Trafford is like playing Brazil 1970 and stop making Martial the next CR7. He isn't

 

While I am pretty sure SI don't have a deal with United, EPL players are rather overrated. While their physical stats are in line with what I'd expect, their technical and mental attributes are way overrated, especially when you compare them to players of similar calibre in other leagues.

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Something is very very broken with  this game. My aubameyang has 20 league goals in 28 league game. !st of all he has lost 2 pace points in just over a season despite being in excellent form. Physical attributes decline wayyy too quickly for older players on this game. Second, his average rating is 7.1. That's very low for someone who is on course to hit 25+ league goals. In reality he's rpobably been the best player in the league based on performances. Even when he scores twice his match rating is below 8! 

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36 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

Something is very very broken with  this game. My aubameyang has 20 league goals in 28 league game. !st of all he has lost 2 pace points in just over a season despite being in excellent form. Physical attributes decline wayyy too quickly for older players on this game. Second, his average rating is 7.1. That's very low for someone who is on course to hit 25+ league goals. In reality he's rpobably been the best player in the league based on performances. Even when he scores twice his match rating is below 8! 

There seems to be a misunderstanding about ratings here. Anything above an average rating of 7 should be considered a very good season. See this explanation from SI earlier this year:

On 25/01/2021 at 16:36, Neil Brock said:

So as part of the work done for FM21 was a new ratings system which aimed to reward players taking into account their active roles and positions. Previously the game weighted goals and assists heavier than anything else which meant you had attacking players often with a sizeable rating compared to other positions, or centre-backs who scored a few headers a season boosted more than those being defensively solid.

The average of performance is now 6.8 - this means any player above this level is performing to an above average level. Someone playing to 7 - 7.2 is playing very well and anything above that fantastically well. The players recognise this - a player won't have an awful morale if they have an average rating of 6.9 - they're still playing above average and the game recognises this.

We're aware that some stats aren't being picked up correctly and due to changes within our stats system, some 'key' aspects now are harder to achieve. This is part of the balancing we'll continue to do both in our next major update and for all future versions of the game. 

If you have a specific example where a player's average rating for a singular performance doesn't make sense, please do raise it in it's own thread ideally with an individual pkm showing it and we can take a look - that's the best way for us to look at player ratings. However do bear in mind the match engine now in live code is behind the one we're working on internally which is a work in progress. This is why some bugs raised within the match engine forums, whilst helpful at pointing us at certain areas of the ME, can't always be specifically used as examples for tweaks or changes. 

Thanks. 

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8 minutes ago, XaW said:

There seems to be a misunderstanding about ratings here. Anything above an average rating of 7 should be considered a very good season. See this explanation from SI earlier this year:

That doesn’t explain why the ai players are able to get higher ratings.

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2 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

That doesn’t explain why the ai players are able to get higher ratings.

If you have examples of things you think are wrong, the post them in the bugs section as mentioned.

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I hope in the FM22, there are improvements to wide defending. Right now, there is just way too much space out wide for AML/AMR. They are almost always allowed to turn and run at the defence which is something that every defence logically would try to prevent. DL/DR players need to break off the defensive line a lot more in order to close space down and stick closer to the wide attacker.

Also, maybe make players with the "Likes To Switch Ball To Wide Areas" trait a little less likely to do it? While it certainly is useful in certain scenarios, it can get really irritating when the only pass your F9 will play is the ball over the top to the IW(At) and often spoil a good buildup. In general, midfielders also play 50-60 yard hollywood passes out wide with a little too much accuracy (by high accuracy, I mean making one touch 60 yard passes which land right at the feet of the winger) , especially if the opposition is defending narrow and deep. In real life, great playmakers will often hold onto the ball for an extra moment and look for a central line-breaking pass rather than moving it out wide since the chances of pulling off that hollywood pass is very low.

Something else I noticed is that defenders don't react properly to players cutting inside. Normally, you'd have them close down the passing lanes and try to get the ball off the dribbler, however, in the game they are almost stationary and stand off too much. In real life, when you have world class players running at defences, they will suck defenders in, and open up space for other players. Just look at Messi or any other world class dribbling. They'll suck 3-4 players before releasing the ball to an open teammate. This doesn't happen a lot in FM, no matter how good your attackers are.

Regarding the finishing, I think there are too many blocked shots. It feels like my opposition, which I am completely overrunning everywhere else on the pitch, suddenly transforms into a 90s Serie A defence and blocks almost every shot inside the box. I've had players find the goalkeeper from a rebound they could have honestly scored from, and strikers smashing the ball into a teammate in abnormal fashion.

Finally, maybe decrease the number of tackles going around? There are just way too many of those. I think this might be because players who are caught in a bad position, often due to a lack of defensive ability can recover too quickly and make a tackle. In real life, bad positioning is very hard to recover from and is the worst thing that can happen to a defender. Take Pogba for example, he has excellent physical attributes but is often a defensive liability due to his poor positioning. Players of a more cerebral kind in the game like Eric Garcia or Sergio Busquets, often feel useless as compared to physical players who lack the mental attributes. Physicality makes up for deficits in mental attributes too quickly while it is more likely the other way round. Simply put, there are a lot of great players out there who are not physically imposing, but you'll never find a great player who is not a great reader of the game.

 

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Posted (edited)

I have to write this because this game is driving me nuts and sharing it with you, guys, kinda helps me

I'm gonna tell you the whole story so it's clear. My dad and I have completely opposite views on football. Basically he's more offensive while I prioritise defense. 

Some months ago he started a game with Dulwich Hamlet in the Vanarama National League South. He has a super offensive tactic (gegenpress/ control possession) with only two players in defensive duties (not even the goalkeeper!!) and both wingbacks in attack. He was promoted every season straight to the Championship. Ridiculous

On the other hand I've been  trying to create a catenaccio or route one playing style. For like ten seasons with different teams, every season was a complete failure. Maybe I got into the goal in the last matches but that's it. Lately, for instance, I made it into the playoffs with Maidstone United. Seasons ussualy kicked off well but then out of the blue the team plummeted and got into the playoffs in the last games. I signed players with good stats for the league level, played them in the right roles and so on. But nothing. Conceding the most ridiculous goals and not scoring the easiest. See, when I say "defensive tactics" I don't mean having 11 goalkeepers. Just prioritising a good and solid defense line and aspect only for setting the base for a quick and lethal attack once you recover the ball. 

And although I've seen desperate attempts here on the forums to defend the game by shedding light on the 'mentality' concept when I opened a post wondering about your failures with aggressive tactics or your success with defensive ones, the point is that you can only succeed in the game with a Guardiola style of playing. I've never heard/seen a single case of another type of style succeeding. Apparently that style is immune to the AI. I mean, in reality, managers have a particular style of playing and though the might make small changes they always play within it. The AI might adjust itself to my playing style but I won't change it drastically because that would mean no fun. The fun part of the game is succeeding in it with the playing style of your liking.

So if a football manager developer or someone who knows about its engine happened to read this, just tell me it's impossible to fail with a gegenpress/control possession tactic or succeed with a catenaccio/route one tactic so I stop losing my time and my mental health

It's enough. I'm completely upset and fed up of this. 

Good riddance FM...

Edited by TaPele
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I completely agree. People will genuinely try to help on this forum by offering tactical tweaks but it’s all opinion and because they have a rare example of defensive success it doesn’t mean it’s a solution.

the real problem is the ambiguity of tactical impact which comes from SI shedding absolutely no light on how each decision affects the game. Their deliberate obliqueness on this belies the fact they don’t want us to understand the workings of the game…..because it’s actually not as subtle as we all pretend it to be.

some argue that we shouldn’t understand each decision as it would make it too easy. BS. Like I’ve said before I know how every decision impacts a game of chess and I’m still relatively rubbish at it.

FM used to be a masterpiece. Now it feels like an experiment. Inexplicable things happen because the ME has called it that way. This creates massive frustration and anger towards the game. I no longer understand why goals are happening. And don’t bother with defensive football mate, all that happens is your opponents get a ridiculous number of chances. SI will offer no explanation, response or discussion points. They’re on 22 now and any changes made to the secret bits will be kept from us so we have to fork out another wedge of cash to see if they’ve made their first good game since FM17.

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Posted (edited)

@TaPele @FulchesterFred Rashidi/BustTheNetGaming has some great videos on YouTube that explain how he has set up defensive tactics and been successfull with them. It definitely is possible to be successful with defensive tactics and I've seen the AI be successful with defensive tactics as well.

Most human managers like to play attacking football, that is why you see most people having success with attacking football; its  not because defensive football doesnt work. Also some people dont implement defensive football well as instead what they are doing is inviting pressure. Defensive football is more about keeping the space the opposition can play in very small, so a low line of engagement but also a higher defensive line in order to minimize the free space on the pitch. Anyway check his videos out on YouTube as they are great.

Edited by francis#17
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2 hours ago, TaPele said:

I have to write this because this game is driving me nuts and sharing it with you, guys, kinda helps me

I'm gonna tell you the whole story so it's clear. My dad and I have completely opposite views on football. Basically he's more offensive while I prioritise defense. 

Some months ago he started a game with Dulwich Hamlet in the Vanarama National League South. He has a super offensive tactic (gegenpress/ control possession) with only two players in defensive duties (not even the goalkeeper!!) and both wingbacks in attack. He was promoted every season straight to the Championship. Ridiculous

On the other hand I've been  trying to create a catenaccio or route one playing style. For like ten seasons with different teams, every season was a complete failure. Maybe I got into the goal in the last matches but that's it. Lately, for instance, I made it into the playoffs with Maidstone United. Seasons ussualy kicked off well but then out of the blue the team plummeted and got into the playoffs in the last games. I signed players with good stats for the league level, played them in the right roles and so on. But nothing. Conceding the most ridiculous goals and not scoring the easiest. See, when I say "defensive tactics" I don't mean having 11 goalkeepers. Just prioritising a good and solid defense line and aspect only for setting the base for a quick and lethal attack once you recover the ball. 

And although I've seen desperate attempts here on the forums to defend the game by shedding light on the 'mentality' concept when I opened a post wondering about your failures with aggressive tactics or your success with defensive ones, the point is that you can only succeed in the game with a Guardiola style of playing. I've never heard/seen a single case of another type of style succeeding. Apparently that style is immune to the AI. I mean, in reality, managers have a particular style of playing and though the might make small changes they always play within it. The AI might adjust itself to my playing style but I won't change it drastically because that would mean no fun. The fun part of the game is succeeding in it with the playing style of your liking.

So if a football manager developer or someone who knows about its engine happened to read this, just tell me it's impossible to fail with a gegenpress/control possession tactic or succeed with a catenaccio/route one tactic so I stop losing my time and my mental health

It's enough. I'm completely upset and fed up of this. 

Good riddance FM...

Why do you seem so incredulous about the goalkeeper part that I've bolded? 

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@TaPele I think the problem is that you have become attached to the idea that there is a 'defensive tactic' which is causing you problems as in reality there isn't such a thing. You need to change the way you think about the game.

There are 4 phases in football,

1) On the ball

2) Off the ball

3) Losing possession transition (when ball is in play)

4) Gaining possession transition (when ball is in play)

All that mentalities do is determine how you go about each phase of play.

On lower mentalities, all phases are done more passively. Your players defend from deeper positions, press less, make less forward runs, take less risks with their passes etc.

What does success mean for a team playing passively? The reason why you don't see many low mentality tactics being successful is simply because that isn't what they are designed for.

How many real life teams do you know that consistently play route one or catenaccio football and are successful? Compare that with teams which are more proactive and attempt to take the initiative in their games. Overwhelmingly, it's the teams which attempt to win games which are in general successful and not those which simply seek not to lose.

When you say that you are signing players which have good stats for the level. What stats are you specifically looking at? Mental attributes are far more important for passive play whereas physical attributes are more important for more aggressive play. Try signing a lot of players with strong mental attributes (tend to be older players) and see if you still concede the poor goals you do. If you want to play more passively, you need to completely rework your definition of what is a good player and what isn't.

I've had success using lower mentalities but I've also said previously that I only use them in specific circumstances and wouldn't choose to play them over a whole season, game in, game out and expect to be successful. If you use them for what they are intended for they can be immensely powerful. However, if you are trying to shoe horn players which aren't suited to it into playing that way it's going to cause more problems and frustration like you are experiencing.

@FulchesterFred You are asking for something which is impossible for them to provide. Rolling with your chess analogy, there is no way of immediately knowing the impact of a move until you're in the end game when there are far fewer pieces on the board. That is in a game which has defined rules and far more limitations. Football is far more complicated and doesn't have those sorts of limits. Hence why we have a chess simulation (Deep Blue) which can beat a human player and why we don't have an AI which can stand up to a human without cheating in some way.

We have enough information available to us as players to dominate the game as it is. Knowing exactly the consequences of making a tactical change isn't something which real life managers have access to so why should we have it available in a football management simulation?

You say that playing on lower mentalities (defensive football by your definition) will lead to them creating a ridiculous amount of chances and you seem think that's somehow incorrect. If you stand off your opponent and allow them to regularly enter into your final third without challenging them they are going to create more opportunities and have more shots. Why is that such a difficult concept to understand? People really seem to struggle with that as it gets brought up repeatedly on this forum and I don't really know why, it's no different in real life football.

What exactly do you want SI to say about the subject?

The same systems (mentality, player roles and duties) that are in FM21 were in FM17. Similarly, playing on lower mentalities in FM17 led to the same sort of lop sided statistics (shots against, possession, etc.) as there are now. I'm genuinely curious to know what it is about FM17 that was so great that you feel that every subsequent release has been worse.

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6 hours ago, TaPele said:

I have to write this because this game is driving me nuts and sharing it with you, guys, kinda helps me

I'm gonna tell you the whole story so it's clear. My dad and I have completely opposite views on football. Basically he's more offensive while I prioritise defense. 

Some months ago he started a game with Dulwich Hamlet in the Vanarama National League South. He has a super offensive tactic (gegenpress/ control possession) with only two players in defensive duties (not even the goalkeeper!!) and both wingbacks in attack. He was promoted every season straight to the Championship. Ridiculous

On the other hand I've been  trying to create a catenaccio or route one playing style. For like ten seasons with different teams, every season was a complete failure. Maybe I got into the goal in the last matches but that's it. Lately, for instance, I made it into the playoffs with Maidstone United. Seasons ussualy kicked off well but then out of the blue the team plummeted and got into the playoffs in the last games. I signed players with good stats for the league level, played them in the right roles and so on. But nothing. Conceding the most ridiculous goals and not scoring the easiest. See, when I say "defensive tactics" I don't mean having 11 goalkeepers. Just prioritising a good and solid defense line and aspect only for setting the base for a quick and lethal attack once you recover the ball. 

And although I've seen desperate attempts here on the forums to defend the game by shedding light on the 'mentality' concept when I opened a post wondering about your failures with aggressive tactics or your success with defensive ones, the point is that you can only succeed in the game with a Guardiola style of playing. I've never heard/seen a single case of another type of style succeeding. Apparently that style is immune to the AI. I mean, in reality, managers have a particular style of playing and though the might make small changes they always play within it. The AI might adjust itself to my playing style but I won't change it drastically because that would mean no fun. The fun part of the game is succeeding in it with the playing style of your liking.

So if a football manager developer or someone who knows about its engine happened to read this, just tell me it's impossible to fail with a gegenpress/control possession tactic or succeed with a catenaccio/route one tactic so I stop losing my time and my mental health

It's enough. I'm completely upset and fed up of this. 

Good riddance FM...

And plenty of threads on counter attacking football in the tactics forum. Meanwhile there are tons of requests for help from people that have overly aggressive tactics. 

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5 hours ago, FulchesterFred said:

They’re on 22 now and any changes made to the secret bits will be kept from us so we have to fork out another wedge of cash to see if they’ve made their first good game since FM17.

I used to chuckle a little every time people bring up FM17. The same game that I played my first edition of FM. First save led Arsenal (which was predicted to finish 4th) to become Premier League champions with a crap tactic that involves crossing to Lacazette who scored 28 league goals. Very good game indeed.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, afced7 said:

Why do you seem so incredulous about the goalkeeper part that I've bolded? 

Because is way to risky to have a sweeper keeper.

 

6 hours ago, pheelf said:

How many real life teams do you know that consistently play route one or catenaccio football and are successful?

It's not that of teams, but of managers. Simeone just won La Liga that way. Chelse clearly prioritsed defending in the last UCL final. Tuchel created a strong "wall" of players and with a clinicaly lethal pass Havertz ended up scoring. Here in Argentina we have Bilardo and Sabella who played "anti-fair play" (at least Bilardo) and first focused on defending. Also Edgardo Bauza, who won Copa Libertadores (South America's championship) with this style and with two different teams that hadn't won the cup before. So, we've got plenty of examples in this world which FM is uncapable of reproducing.

The point is that enjoy the game playing with those styles and I have to change and play controlling the possession or with super attacking tactics the game is over to me.

 

6 hours ago, pheelf said:

Overwhelmingly, it's the teams which attempt to win games which are in general successful

This is a HUGE misunterstanding that drives me mad. EVERY team attempts to win games. Some focusing on the attack, some on the defense. But it's a tremendous mistake and kinda of "insult" to say some teams doesn't want to win.

 

6 hours ago, pheelf said:

When you say that you are signing players which have good stats for the level

Well, at this point I'm kinda sceptic in regards to stats. My best striker has like 12 finishing and 8/7 of decitions and composure but he fails a lot of chances he has face to face with the keeper, pretty easy to score. Also, my defenders have blooming good tackling and marking (10 as an average) and I have one who has more than 15 in heading, jumping reach and strenght (I'm in the Vanarama South).

Edited by TaPele
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10 minutes ago, TaPele said:

Because is way to risky to have a sweeper keeper.

It's probably riskier to play without a sweeper keeper if you have a high line. Anyway your original point was about not having the keeper on defend, and since you can put a sweeper keeper on defend, this doesn't really answer the question.

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Posted (edited)

The point is that if for winning I have to turn towards a more offensive style, then FM is not worth it, because I want with my playing style...

Furthermore, if you used an offensive tactic, the game is a piece of cake and if you use a defensive tactic, it's impossible to succeed. In both cases, you do not have fun. Hence, the game is terrible

Edited by TaPele
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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, TaPele said:

The point is that if for winning I have to turn towards a more offensive style, then FM is not worth it, because I want with my playing style...

Furthermore, if you used an offensive tactic, the game is a piece of cake and if you use a defensive tactic, it's impossible to succeed. In both cases, you do not have fun. Hence, the game is terrible

That's not how football works. You can't just win with your style because you want to and that view is probably why you didn't do very well.

I've spent about 800 hours on the game so far and had fun. I didn't realise I was only supposed to have fun if you were. Can you let me know others things I should not enjoy just so I know please.

 

Edited by Grifty
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3 minutes ago, Grifty said:

I've spent about 800 hours on the game so far and had fun. I didn't realise I was only supposed to have fun if you were.

Man, have I just been miserable for 2,300+ hours then?

image.png.4a036c0632243520a3d1367f08027140.png

Anyway, if anyone thinks it's impossible to win with a more defensive minded tactic, I think they are wrong, and there are several posts in the tactics forum that outlines how they've done it. So I'd advise a trip in there, and if that doesn't help, I'd advise to create a thread there with your own tactic and let someone take a look and try to give some pointers.

Another thing for defensive minded tactics, if you are looking to let the other team control the match, you are most likely the poorer team in that match (otherwise why play defensively?) and you need to curb your expectations of winning against better teams.

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7 hours ago, TaPele said:

Furthermore, if you used an offensive tactic, the game is a piece of cake and if you use a defensive tactic, it's impossible to succeed. In both cases, you do not have fun. Hence, the game is terrible

I have provided links to two threads about people that play defensive tactics and are successful. So maybe the problem is you?

And plenty of people have asked for help on offensive tactics that are unbalanced in the tactics forum. 

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On 06/06/2021 at 07:38, TaPele said:

Seasons ussualy kicked off well but then out of the blue the team plummeted and got into the playoffs in the last games.

I've had similar before - particularly if my team isn't predicted to do well.  Basically, the AI will adjust to you as you're doing well.  That means they are less likely to commit players forward and making it harder for you to counter.  So you either have to tweak your tactic to encourage them out so you can still counter them (and as someome mentioned above, I would recommend watching the Bust the Net Gaming channel on YouTube) - or be a little more aggressive with your tactic.  That doesn't mean you have to go Attacking with a high line and counter press.

Example, my base formation was a 4-2-2-2 - 2 DM's - when I started dropping points after a great start, I pushed the 2 DM's up to make it a 4-4-2.  If I really need a goal I can push the 2 wingers up into the AML/AMR slot to make it a more attacking 4-2-2-2.  I keep a standard defensive line in all 3 versions of the tactic as I don't have the players at the back to do this.

I do feel your pain though.  I certainly believe that there is a lot less margin for error when you play more defensive/sensible tactics (one minor tweak often turns things around, but I don't always quite understand why) - whereas if you go Attacking and max everything out, it seems you just win.  The vast majority of the tactics to download out there are like this (which doesn't help players like you) - but when SI has punished players for this, a large part of the fan base revolted.  It's been discussed in this and other threads ad nauseam, but I can't see a way for SI to keep everyone happy!

It might mean players like you move away from the game, which is a shame.  I think we all want to play FM and love doing it - but if it is causing you more stress than enjoyment, the only thing you can do is move away from the game, or play an older version which you have more comfort that you are going to enjoy - even if it doesn't have some of the new features of FM20/21.

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19 hours ago, pheelf said:

@TaPele I think the problem is that you have become attached to the idea that there is a 'defensive tactic' which is causing you problems as in reality there isn't such a thing. You need to change the way you think about the game.

There are 4 phases in football,

1) On the ball

2) Off the ball

3) Losing possession transition (when ball is in play)

4) Gaining possession transition (when ball is in play)

All that mentalities do is determine how you go about each phase of play.

On lower mentalities, all phases are done more passively. Your players defend from deeper positions, press less, make less forward runs, take less risks with their passes etc.

What does success mean for a team playing passively? The reason why you don't see many low mentality tactics being successful is simply because that isn't what they are designed for.

How many real life teams do you know that consistently play route one or catenaccio football and are successful? Compare that with teams which are more proactive and attempt to take the initiative in their games. Overwhelmingly, it's the teams which attempt to win games which are in general successful and not those which simply seek not to lose.

When you say that you are signing players which have good stats for the level. What stats are you specifically looking at? Mental attributes are far more important for passive play whereas physical attributes are more important for more aggressive play. Try signing a lot of players with strong mental attributes (tend to be older players) and see if you still concede the poor goals you do. If you want to play more passively, you need to completely rework your definition of what is a good player and what isn't.

I've had success using lower mentalities but I've also said previously that I only use them in specific circumstances and wouldn't choose to play them over a whole season, game in, game out and expect to be successful. If you use them for what they are intended for they can be immensely powerful. However, if you are trying to shoe horn players which aren't suited to it into playing that way it's going to cause more problems and frustration like you are experiencing.

@FulchesterFred You are asking for something which is impossible for them to provide. Rolling with your chess analogy, there is no way of immediately knowing the impact of a move until you're in the end game when there are far fewer pieces on the board. That is in a game which has defined rules and far more limitations. Football is far more complicated and doesn't have those sorts of limits. Hence why we have a chess simulation (Deep Blue) which can beat a human player and why we don't have an AI which can stand up to a human without cheating in some way.

We have enough information available to us as players to dominate the game as it is. Knowing exactly the consequences of making a tactical change isn't something which real life managers have access to so why should we have it available in a football management simulation?

You say that playing on lower mentalities (defensive football by your definition) will lead to them creating a ridiculous amount of chances and you seem think that's somehow incorrect. If you stand off your opponent and allow them to regularly enter into your final third without challenging them they are going to create more opportunities and have more shots. Why is that such a difficult concept to understand? People really seem to struggle with that as it gets brought up repeatedly on this forum and I don't really know why, it's no different in real life football.

What exactly do you want SI to say about the subject?

The same systems (mentality, player roles and duties) that are in FM21 were in FM17. Similarly, playing on lower mentalities in FM17 led to the same sort of lop sided statistics (shots against, possession, etc.) as there are now. I'm genuinely curious to know what it is about FM17 that was so great that you feel that every subsequent release has been worse.

The graphics were better, the gameplay felt more realistic….IMO. and it’s all about opinions.

When I criticise SI about a lack of explanation I refer to things like tactical instructions such as always mark. What does that even mean?? Always mark all over the pitch?? It’s ridiculous. A fake instruction. Always press? But what if you have a low block DL? It’s obtuse. Not accessible. Poorly explained. Or never press! What happens if my opponent is 3 yards from goal. Does my team still not press him? I don’t need a fellow forum contributor to give me their well worked theory I need SI to take the flipping time to explain what it actually means and what the impact will be.

I don’t get what you mean by chess tbh. A bad decision is often immediately realised. Sometimes you don’t spot sometimes you do. Of course the are more layers to football than chess - a lot more moving parts - but I don’t think this game should hold secrets where they don’t need to exist. If you ask you player and team to do something you should see impacts or at least know why there is no impact. Some of the users here seem to think  football managers don’t have a clue what’s going on. Say that to pep who took his team from a series of terrible results to a record breaking winning streak by identifying the problems, working on them, changing tactics and getting everything right.

As I play FMT on tablet I think get a really inferior experience. Stats are often wrong. No personal interaction so it relies entirely on tactics. Instructions are ambiguous and games often have jarring moments which suggests the players are paying no attention to instructions. Maybe that’s my issue.

 

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The problem is not that the defensive tactics do not work, as they do as clearly showed by some content creators but are not easy to setup or to understand.

The problem is:

- In general in FM21 the same team performs better with an aggressive pressing and high mentality tactic so there is little motivation to play defensive unless you are a fan of it. The fix here is probably hard to get. The key is to find the right balance between stamina used, injuries, balls over the defenders from the pressed team, etc. We have gone through several ME versions in FM20 and FM21 with different results one way or another.

- The tactic creator concepts are still too abstract and "too FM" in some cases (like mentality), far from the popular football knowledge, that frustrates a lot of players that can't understand them and how to apply them to what they have in their minds when setting up the tactic they envision.

- Some of the tactics creator settings affect too much other settings with no clear visible effect, like again mentality, that affects also width, lines height, passing distance, etc and add to the final result, so a defensive mentality with low line of engagement, low line of defence, defending narrow and low pressing is totally overkill and basically putting your whole team in front of your goal waiting for it to happen.

- Mentality again, the fact that to play counter, you better setup up positive or even attacking mentality so your team takes more risks to send the ball forward quicker instead or taking low risk and slow decisions, is counter intuitive until you know how it all works together.

- It doesn't help that the defensive presets are exactly setup the wrong way, putting together low mentality, narrow defending, low line of engagement, low defensive line, etc that is totally overkill and confuses all the new players even more. Really puzzles me that nobody at SI has pushed the responsable person or team to provide correct presets (or allow us users to share presets), and instead we have the same wrongly and confusing presets for a few game versions already. You are doing yourself a really poor favor here with these terrible presets, specially the ones that are not about high pressing.

- Due to all the above, in general an attacking tactic is easier to setup than a good defensive one and much less frustrating.

Edited by Icy
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17 hours ago, TaPele said:

It's not that of teams, but of managers. Simeone just won La Liga that way. Chelse clearly prioritsed defending in the last UCL final. Tuchel created a strong "wall" of players and with a clinicaly lethal pass Havertz ended up scoring. Here in Argentina we have Bilardo and Sabella who played "anti-fair play" (at least Bilardo) and first focused on defending. Also Edgardo Bauza, who won Copa Libertadores (South America's championship) with this style and with two different teams that hadn't won the cup before. So, we've got plenty of examples in this world which FM is uncapable of reproducing.

I don't think it's right to characterize the reason why Atlético Madrid won La Liga as being because Simone's played a low mentality throughout. Against teams which he perceived to be better or competitive against his side he did play more conservatively but he didn't when he thought his team was stronger which feeds into my point that playing low mentalities (without alterations) every game doesn't lead to success in the long term. Additionally, when his team has the ball they play a far more progressive attacking style than is offered by a low mentality. His team doesn't really play route one either and actually tends to have more possession than their opponents in a lot of games.

I accept that in one-off games or cup tournaments we have seen that passive style occasionally be successful. I wouldn't say that Tuchel set up for the UCL final was like that. He started with a more aggressive approach and they outplayed Man City and but for some poor finishing would have scored a lot earlier than they did, when Chelsea scored he then went more defensive and looked to hit on the counter. That wasn't the premise of your argument though which was that it should be possible to create a low mentality tactic and play it all the time and have the same level of success as if you played a higher mentality tactic.

Playing on higher mentalities gives you far more room for error than playing on lower mentalities. If you concede a goal on a higher mentality it's okay as your team still has attacking intent and can score, conceding a goal on a lower mentality and not making any changes can be deeply damaging as there is far less attacking intent so less likelihood of your team scoring especially if the opposition after scoring go more defensive themselves. Mistakes are also far more costly as the majority of the play takes place in your final 3rd. If you adopt a high press and your striker doesn't manage to force a mistake by pressing it's not that big of a issue as the opposition still has to get through the rest of his teammates behind him.

17 hours ago, TaPele said:

This is a HUGE misunterstanding that drives me mad. EVERY team attempts to win games. Some focusing on the attack, some on the defense. But it's a tremendous mistake and kinda of "insult" to say some teams doesn't want to win.

No they don't, some managers set their teams up intentionally not to lose especially when a draw would be a good result for them. A team which displays little to no attacking intent doesn't want to score goals and hence is not attempting to win the game. I think you have the misunderstanding here. You can't choose to focus on defense (off the ball) or focus on attack (on the ball) alone, you need to consider both aspects for any tactic you create. In effect, when playing on lower mentalities you aren't shifting the balance between attacking and defending (which the game misleadingly presents). What you are doing is telling your team to be more passive both off the ball and on the ball.

17 hours ago, TaPele said:

Well, at this point I'm kinda sceptic in regards to stats. My best striker has like 12 finishing and 8/7 of decitions and composure but he fails a lot of chances he has face to face with the keeper, pretty easy to score. Also, my defenders have blooming good tackling and marking (10 as an average) and I have one who has more than 15 in heading, jumping reach and strenght (I'm in the Vanarama South).

One on ones aren't as easy to score as you maybe think they are, the advantage usually lies with the keeper. Having said that, there is more to whether a striker will score a lot of goals than those 3 attributes you listed. Hidden attributes like consistency play a part also. If you are playing on a lower mentality he is also likely getting less opportunities created for him during the game. What that does is add pressure to the fewer chances that do come his way. What's your strikers concentration like? Much like a GK which doesn't really feature much in the game, he needs to remain switched on so that when his moment does arrive he can execute his job.

Your defenders may have good tackling, marking, heading, jumping reach and strength but if they don't have the positioning, decisions, anticipation, team work, concentration, work rate and determination those good attributes can be rendered irrelevant. If you want to play more passively off the ball those mental attributes should be prioritized over the physical and technical attributes. How good are your midfielders at the defensive side of the game?

3 hours ago, FulchesterFred said:

The graphics were better, the gameplay felt more realistic….IMO. and it’s all about opinions.

When I criticise SI about a lack of explanation I refer to things like tactical instructions such as always mark. What does that even mean?? Always mark all over the pitch?? It’s ridiculous. A fake instruction. Always press? But what if you have a low block DL? It’s obtuse. Not accessible. Poorly explained. Or never press! What happens if my opponent is 3 yards from goal. Does my team still not press him? I don’t need a fellow forum contributor to give me their well worked theory I need SI to take the flipping time to explain what it actually means and what the impact will be.

I don’t get what you mean by chess tbh. A bad decision is often immediately realised. Sometimes you don’t spot sometimes you do. Of course the are more layers to football than chess - a lot more moving parts - but I don’t think this game should hold secrets where they don’t need to exist. If you ask you player and team to do something you should see impacts or at least know why there is no impact. Some of the users here seem to think  football managers don’t have a clue what’s going on. Say that to pep who took his team from a series of terrible results to a record breaking winning streak by identifying the problems, working on them, changing tactics and getting everything right.

As I play FMT on tablet I think get a really inferior experience. Stats are often wrong. No personal interaction so it relies entirely on tactics. Instructions are ambiguous and games often have jarring moments which suggests the players are paying no attention to instructions. Maybe that’s my issue.

You're right, everybody is entitled to their opinion. I don't agree that FM17 (a game I played extensively) is the gold standard but perhaps my opinion of that game has been tainted by my experiences with it.

I agree with what you say about the opaqueness of the descriptions in the tactical creator. The difficulty with using descriptors is that things can be interpreted in a multitude of different ways which often leads to confusion and lack of understanding about exactly what is meant. That is why I want to see pictorial representation of concepts in the tactical creator. A picture is worth a thousand words and is a clear and efficient way to communicate to the user.

Sometimes football managers don't have a clue what's going on and how to change the course of a game in their favour. Had Pep known exactly what to change in order to win the UCL final do you think he wouldn't have done it?

I'll try to explain clearer what I meant with the chess analogy. You stated that when playing chess you knew how every decision you made impacts the game. My point was that you can't know exactly how it's going impact the game unless you're in the end game with few pieces left on the board (hence much fewer variables). The reason is that you don't know what moves your opponent will make until after they have made them.

That is in a game which is far less complex than football and becomes less complex as pieces are removed from the board. Therefore how can you expect to know precisely how making tactical change X will impact a football match? It's not something that real life managers would know.

If you were trying to say that because you don't fully understand the tactical instructions themselves and that's the reason why you're not sure what impact they would have on your teams play, well, that is a completely different argument which I can empathize with. Bringing it back to the chess analogy (sorry), that would be like saying I don't understand how to use the knight so when I'm playing a game I can't see the impact of what the knight is capable of doing.

My only advice then would be to strip it back and only use instructions that you do fully understand (it's the way I play). If you don't understand OIs, don't use them, you don't need them and you can be plenty successful without them. Can't see the impact of a particular TI then get rid of it.

Bear in mind that instructions are only tendencies, simply put, if a player can't perform the instruction you have given them they won't do it. For e.g. If you use the Hit early crosses TI but don't have players in advanced wide areas early in attacking moves to deliver those crosses or have players in the box early to receive those crosses the instruction won't get carried out.

Edited by pheelf
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Posted (edited)

Haha. Yesterday I was tired and a bit tipsy. Deleted something I didn't want to delete: My fricking save games. Looked for previous backupped version by windows. Nada. Looked in my onedrive. Nada. Downloaded Recuva. Nada. Then one hour of the 7 stages of grief I deleted all my packs, my downloads, etc etc. Then another hour I went into my onedrive again. Boom.. One back upped save from 3rd June. Hurray! Went to bed and now I am downloading all the stuff over again from Sortitoutsi. Bought a membership for faster downloads. Ahhh. Luckily it's only one season I missed, so not too bad. However, it feels a bit like cheating because I know what to do at the moment: Selling Gavin Bazunu for 3 million, because he doesn't want to renew his contract because he wants to go. Likely he's bugged. He wants to go for 3 years now.. Bought a player for 5 million. in 2030 he got clubs interested in him so he doesn't want to renew his contract aka I am going to sign him a new one immediately. (Sold him for 7.5m btw) and there's another defender who wants to go, this time going sell him earlier. FM.. you got me <3 I hate your patch policy but you got me.

Edited by RinusFM
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Posted (edited)

Signing players and renewing contracts is very annoying when every player has a hyperinflated view of their squad role. Literally no one is happy being a squad player. Everyone thinks that they should be an important or regular starter no matter their ability in relation to the squad. Why should smith rowe be demanding to be made an important player, when my staff and his ability suggest he should be a squad player. I refuse to make him an important player and now he won't sign a contract. 

Also unless my dlp gets an assist, his match ratings are always poor. Like 6.8 or below.

Edited by _mxrky
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On 06/06/2021 at 17:12, XaW said:

(otherwise why play defensively?)

Because I enjoy and fancy more that style? Maybe the game is set up for defensive approaches working only for underdogs?

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6 hours ago, TaPele said:

Because I enjoy and fancy more that style? Maybe the game is set up for defensive approaches working only for underdogs?

Well, I don't think I've seen any dominant team in real life go in with a defensive strategy against a smaller side initially or regularly against smaller sides. Even sides that are "known" to be defensively (Atletico Madrid, Burnley, etc) don't do that then. So if no one does it in real life, why should it work in FM?

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7 hours ago, TaPele said:

Because I enjoy and fancy more that style? Maybe the game is set up for defensive approaches working only for underdogs?

 

34 minutes ago, XaW said:

Well, I don't think I've seen any dominant team in real life go in with a defensive strategy against a smaller side initially or regularly against smaller sides. Even sides that are "known" to be defensively (Atletico Madrid, Burnley, etc) don't do that then. So if no one does it in real life, why should it work in FM?

Part of the problem here @TaPele is your use of the term "defensive football" because what you actually want to play is counter attacking football, which is a completely different style of play:

Quote

See, when I say "defensive tactics" I don't mean having 11 goalkeepers. Just prioritising a good and solid defense line and aspect only for setting the base for a quick and lethal attack once you recover the ball.

You may think it pedantic however using the correct term is very important here to avoid confusion - @XaW is correct when talking about defensive football but plenty of teams will play in the counter attacking style which you describe.

Having said that, yes it is perfectly possible to play with a counter attacking style.  It may not be quite so easy or straight forward to set up as a more aggressive style of play, but there is nothing to stop you doing it.  In the other threads you created you received a lot of feedback and ideas about how to achieve it so go back to those threads, re-read things and if you don't understand what's being said there ask more questions.  Want you want to do is not easy, but neither is it impossible.

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Club Vision is ludicrous. Got promoted with West Brom and they changed the vision to include defensive and counter attacking football. Complete opposite of how we got promoted. They completely refused to allow me to change it. Now, I get that a board may decide to attempt to impose a style of play, but the end result of my attempts to change it was basically 'this is it, like it or lump it'. I should at least have the option to say that I refuse to work under those circumstances, and give an ultimatum.

Absolutely idiotic that after five years in the Championship a board would completely alienate the manager that finally got them up by demanding he play the complete opposite style of football he is known for. This is after leaving Celtic, after a new board splurted a third of the £200m I'd carefully built up, while still having success, on players I didn't need or want.

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1 hour ago, johnhughthom said:

Club Vision is ludicrous. Got promoted with West Brom and they changed the vision to include defensive and counter attacking football. Complete opposite of how we got promoted. They completely refused to allow me to change it. Now, I get that a board may decide to attempt to impose a style of play, but the end result of my attempts to change it was basically 'this is it, like it or lump it'. I should at least have the option to say that I refuse to work under those circumstances, and give an ultimatum.

Absolutely idiotic that after five years in the Championship a board would completely alienate the manager that finally got them up by demanding he play the complete opposite style of football he is known for. This is after leaving Celtic, after a new board splurted a third of the £200m I'd carefully built up, while still having success, on players I didn't need or want.

It is hard not to agree with this view.  I have a current club vision of playing attacking football and playing defensive football!! They also want me to make the most of set pieces?? My board are "devastated" that despite winning the CL, I dint spend all the transfer budget and sign high reputation players.  I can have an undefeated league season and they have a major concern about a draw?.  That module definitely need some work IMO

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I complain about it every year, but the ai tactics are seriously bad, yet they can still dominate.

Liverpool playing an advanced a playmaker and deep lying playmaker in     Their 4231 pivot and yet you cannot counter attack them nor can you dominate the ball. It’s really ridiculous.

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I mean, Liverpool are a very good team, so obviously they can compensate quite a bit through player quality. Also, what is wrong with an AP/DLP pivot? The DLP is a holding player regardless of duty and the AP is by no means the most aggressive CM option either, especially if you have a player that's willing to help out defensively, which considering most of Liverpool's midfield has high work rate shouldn't be an issue. Not being able to dominate possession against a strong midfield is perfectly logical and I also don't understand why this pivot pairing should be incredibly vulnerable to counters, especially if it's a DLP(D)/AP(S) combination.

Honestly confused what you think is "seriously bad" about a DLP/AP pivot.

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3 hours ago, Freakiie said:

I mean, Liverpool are a very good team, so obviously they can compensate quite a bit through player quality. Also, what is wrong with an AP/DLP pivot? The DLP is a holding player regardless of duty and the AP is by no means the most aggressive CM option either, especially if you have a player that's willing to help out defensively, which considering most of Liverpool's midfield has high work rate shouldn't be an issue. Not being able to dominate possession against a strong midfield is perfectly logical and I also don't understand why this pivot pairing should be incredibly vulnerable to counters, especially if it's a DLP(D)/AP(S) combination.

Honestly confused what you think is "seriously bad" about a DLP/AP pivot.

It depends a lot on the players. I've seen United play a midfield two of Pogba and Fernandes, a combination which would see them run over by almost every team in the PL, and reach the CL Final. The problem is that defensive ability becomes practically irrelevant for midfielders if they have high work rate and high physical stats. This is one of the inherent weaknesses of the 4-2-3-1. Once your first line of press is bypassed you become extremely vulnerable. This doesn't happen in FM as players somehow magically recover from bad positioning in a manner they never could irl. 

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5 hours ago, Freakiie said:

I mean, Liverpool are a very good team, so obviously they can compensate quite a bit through player quality. Also, what is wrong with an AP/DLP pivot? The DLP is a holding player regardless of duty and the AP is by no means the most aggressive CM option either, especially if you have a player that's willing to help out defensively, which considering most of Liverpool's midfield has high work rate shouldn't be an issue. Not being able to dominate possession against a strong midfield is perfectly logical and I also don't understand why this pivot pairing should be incredibly vulnerable to counters, especially if it's a DLP(D)/AP(S) combination.

Honestly confused what you think is "seriously bad" about a DLP/AP pivot.

two play,mers next to each other in a pivot should not create as many chances as the ai do. They were using origi and shaqiri and henderson at cb. Not even their normal ser of players. I also regularly see the ai using a mezzala and ball winning midfielder in a pivot and yet you still can't create anything. 

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Posted (edited)

Again home advantage is simply too much:

 

Ruins the immersion. Of course I didn't score in the second half. Meanwhile my away form is poor. The balance is simply off with the mentality of the away team and the way the home and away differential is implemented in this game. It feels artificially harder away.

image.png

Edited by _mxrky
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