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[FM20] Defending with Possession


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After a few trial runs through pre-season to get familiar with the squad, I'm now about a third of the way through the 2019/20 season as Livorno. Despite a pre-season prediction of 15th (and Livorno in fact getting relegated in last place in the real world), we sit 5th after 12 games.

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Our position is almost entirely thanks to our overall solidity, which was my initial goal for the season: we've conceded the joint-2nd fewest goals in the division. However, we are only 1 win in 5, have the 6th-fewest goals scored, and sit only a couple of bad results from the bottom half of the table. We-- meaning me, the manager, and you, my trusted backroom staff! :brock:-- must find a way to continue to evolve the side's attacking play while not compromising the good structure that has gotten us here.

I will start by walking through the overall character of the squad and emphasizing a few key players. I will then describe how I turned those observations into our current tactical system and some thoughts about possible changes.

A.S. Livorno Calcio: Squad Overview

One of the difficulties I had when starting this savegame was creating a coherent vision out of the Livorno squad. The first-team squad fills 19 of 20 O23 slots (the final slot could only be filled by a club "icon" who has been with the club for at least 4 seasons), plus a whopping 10 more U23 players who don't require registration but are too old for the reserve (U20) side. The club has 19(?!) players away from the club on loan, while, bizarrely, fully 10 of the first-team squad are themselves only at Livorno for the season on loan. The season has barely begun and I have already run into problems with players unhappy about their lack of playing time.

In short, the squad is bloated. Oftentimes at the beginning of a save you can get a good sense of a probable XI, formation, and rough tactical identity by the nature of the players at your disposal. But with so many players at the club, in so many different positions, and all generally at a similar level of skill, it took me a while to settle on my basic framework. However, this does afford us a great deal of tactical flexibility. 

 

Goalkeepers:

Spoiler

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Livorno are, for this season, blessed with 2 good choices in goal. 19 year-old Alessandro Plizzari, on loan from A.C. Milan, is extraordinarily promising and already matches or betters Lukas Zima, our current #1, on most goalkeeping attributes. But the Czech, 25, has nearly 10cm on his colleague, is still young enough to improve, and of course we own his contract beyond this season. In either case, the lack of adequate technique on the ball likely precludes the use of a sweeper-keeper.

 

Defenders:

Key Player - Matías Silvestre (CB)

Spoiler

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Silvestre is one of a handful of players from whom I am determined to squeeze one last good season. He's considered our star player and is by far our highest paid player. Despite being prone to lapses of concentration, he's easily the best centreback at the club, with excellent technical and mental attributes. At 35 years old, this is definitely his final season before he loses his legs entirely. As it is, his inclusion in the XI means that we can play no higher than a Standard defensive line.

A good partnership has already been established with 23y/o Luka Bogdan. The Croat is similarly well-rounded technically and mentally, averaging 13 across all the recommended CB attributes, with only his decision-making (9) letting him down. At 195cm, he should help us be resilient in the air and dangerous from set pieces.

The club has a lot of depth in central defensive positions, with 3 more CBs adequately skilled enough to be relied upon if necessary: Boben (tall, strong, decent mentals), Agardius (ball-playing, weak in the air (really a not-very-dynamic fullback)), and Di Gennaro (tall, decent mentals). This gives us the option of playing 3-at-the-back.

In the fullback positions, it's yet again dealer's choice with minimum 4 acceptable options to choose from, 2 for each side. All four players match pretty much the same description: tolerable to sub-par defensive skills coupled with tolerable ball skills and decidedly average physical attributes. Enrico del Prato, 19y/o and on loan from Atalanta is the pick of the bunch with his 4-to-5 star potential ability. His well-rounded attributes and natural ability to play in midfield bring to mind an IWB-s/d role, but he remains perfectly adequate playing a more traditional wide defender role. All 4 players are comfortable playing in the WB strata.

 

Midfielders:

My very first step when assessing the Livorno squad was to filter by @Rashidi's recommended set of core attributes for "spine" midfielders: Positioning, Off the Ball, Anticipation, Concentration, and Composure. This shows us that we have 3 very dependable midfielders at the club who score 12 or better in every category (the 4th is del Prato, mentioned above). All three players are equally adept at playing CM or DM and come with their own unique player traits which will be critical to understanding how they integrate into the bigger tactical picture.

Key Player - Federico Viviani

Spoiler

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Probably our best player, so we had better make the most out of his loan. Viviani tops our squad for finishing, long shots, first touch, passing, crossing, technique, free kicks, penalties, and vision. I want him starting moves, I want him finishing moves, I want him playmaking, I want him on dead ball situations. Combined with his 'Dictates Tempo' trait, his skills scream to be the guy running each game. However, his lack of pace suggests that in order to let him play this role a high-paced attacking system may not be suitable. His tackling and positioning are more than adequate, but his poor marking and work rate may require partner(s) in midfield who are defensively strong.

Key Player - Andrea Luci (DM/CM)

Spoiler

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Luci is in his tenth consecutive season at Livorno, a club icon and current club captain coming to the end of his career. Like Silvestre (our vice-captain), he is still good enough to be a key member of the side here in Serie B. His most notable characteristic is his mental strength, the type of player who will serve as a rallying figure on the pitch and never give up. Luci is another midfielder who looks to take charge of games through his shooting, passing, and dribbling. His defensive attributes don't entirely convince me, but I am very intrigued by the idea of pairing him in a double pivot with Viviani.

Key Player - Davide Agazzi

Spoiler

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Our final ultra-reliable midfielder, Agazzi is another well-rounded player who doesn't necessarily excel in a particular area. Although his finishing and dribbling could use improvement, it's easy to see why the game recommends a box-to-box role for Agazzi -- especially with his trait Plays One-Twos, which could be very useful in the final third. Agazzi has played a backup role to Viviani and Luci so far this season since he is younger and under a longer contract, but will certainly play a big role in the future. Both Agazzi and Luci have the tendency to dwell on the ball, perhaps another indication that a slower playing style might be called for.

Other option in central midfield are Theophilus Awua, a more dynamic runner/dribbler corresponding roughly to the Mezzala attributes, who likewise Dwells on Ball and also Runs With Ball Often; Michele Rocca, who brings balanced mental and physical attributes though lacks slightly in terms of technical ability (Carrilero); and Luca Rizzo, a dribbling CM/WM (Runs With Ball Down Right, Plays Short Simple Passes, Runs With Ball Often), also in the Mezzala mold. These three players are all on loan at the club. 

 

Attackers:

Key Player - Fabio Mazzeo

Spoiler

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Mazzeo is the final of our elder statesmen around whom I am building this Livorno side this season. What he lacks in physical dynamism he makes up for with mental strength and technical skill. Missing from this screenshot are the traits Plays One-Twos and Tries First Time Shots. Mazzeo is yet another player who can make his influence felt in multiple areas of the pitch. And-- have you seen the pattern yet?-- he's another player pushing us away from a more bombastic attacking style.

Key Player - Sven Braken (CF/AM)

Spoiler

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Equally adept as either CF or AM, Braken brings excellent technique for our level, but is crucially lacking in anticipation, composure, and decision-making. I am currently training him to play one-twos. I feel that getting his role right will be critical.

Key Player - Robin Simovic

Spoiler

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"And now for something completely different..." Simovic is the quintessential target man: huge, strong, impossible to beat in the air. An excellent foil to our other two more graceful forwards.

Key Player - Davide Marsura (AML)

Spoiler

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Our final key player, Marsura is emblematic of the type of wide players we have at the club: decent technical ability for our level, iffy mental attributes, and lacklustre physical attributes. Adrian Stoian, another right-footer who plays primarily on the left, is slightly quicker; Manuel Marras is more of the same: a left-footer playing on the right, our fastest player with ACC 16 + PAC 14, but scores of 10/11 in all the technical attributes you would want; Enrico Brignola, on loan from Sassuolo is another highly promising young player, a left-footer who is a natural in any of the 4 attacking positions, but shares broadly the same strengths/weaknesses; the final option is Murilo (AMR, AML, STC), who is more in the Inside Forward variety.

With the 22 players listed above we have 2 full XIs worth of usable players, plus a handful of bit-part players in case of crisis. But how can we best use them?

 

Tactical Overview

  • As a rule, the squad is extremely one-paced, meaning we're unlikely to be able to play a fast-transition game effectively.
  • We would like to get our central midfielders involved in all phases of play. 
  • Our central defenders are quite solid, but the defensive unit as a whole probably can't be relied upon to do most of their defending behind the ball.
  • With our Standard (or lower) defensive line, we need to be able to methodically build play up the pitch if we don't want our forward players to be isolated.
  • The natural movements of some of our key players suggest an interchanging style.
  • The overall poor level of finishing perhaps places an emphasis on creating better chances vs. lots of chances.
  • Set pieces should be a major weapon.

Taking these factors together, I decided that we should develop a low-tempo, possession-oriented system (I expect this will be a very unpopular decision). Retaining relatively cautious possession of the ball will first of all keep our own goal safest by minimizing the amount of defending we have to do. Patiently building play allows all of our players to get up the pitch together and operate as a unit in the final third. 

 

Formation:

4-2-3-1 DM AM Wide - With our generally cautious approach, I believe we can lean towards a more top-heavy formation to help ensure that we get sufficient numbers into dangerous areas. 

 

Mentality:

Balanced - While I'm intrigued with the idea of experimenting with Cautious mentality for a possession-based system, I see no compelling reason to immediately change from Balanced. Positive or higher mentalities encourage more aggressive, riskier play -- not what we want! 

 

Out of Possession:

Standard Defensive Line - With our star CB lacking entirely in the pace department, we cannot push higher up the pitch than this without inviting an unacceptable level of risk to direct counters behind our defensive line. We will have to monitor whether dropping the line to Lower becomes necessary.

Lower Line of Engagement - Once we've transitioned fully to our defensive phase we want to emphasize being vertically compact and supporting our defenders. Hopefully this will encourage our AML/R players to be in an adequate defensive shape.

Standard Pressing Intensity - Without particularly dominant defensive players, we are not interested in aggressively breaking our defensive shape to apply pressure. I have experimented with a split block, with the front 4 players instructed to Close Down More. I'm not sure whether this contradicts the ideas behind the lower line of engagement.

Use Tighter Marking - Rather than relying on aggressive pressing, during transitions we want our defenders to already be in position to challenge opposition players for the ball, or at least force them to recycle the play while we settle into our defensive shape.

Prevent Short GK Distribution - The 4-2-3-1 has the numbers up top to shut down our opponent's opportunities to build their own play from the back when the ball is with their GK. We are looking to force lower-percentage balls forward to those players who are being tightly marked and challenged. 

Standard Defensive Width - Our CBs are strong enough in the air that we don't need to focus on preventing crosses at all costs.

 

In Transition:

Counter-Press - The thinking behind this instruction is that, again, our top-heavy formation means that when the ball is turned over high up the pitch we already have players in position to engage in a press. If we are able to break the opponent's transition, we may be able to exploit holes in their shape -- which is an important opportunity since we will often be trying to play through established defenses. Aggressive counter-pressing will also hopefully force opponents into similar low-percentage balls forward, as discussed above. Finally, I believe counter-pressing allows our defenders who don't participate in the counter-press time to get back into their defensive phase positions. 

Distribute to Centrebacks and Fullbacks - No long balls to our forwards.

 

In Possession:

Lower Tempo - This is the basis of our style. While verticality is probably more linked to Mentality, asking our players to take their time on the ball should allow us to move up the pitch as a unit, getting our influential midfielders on the ball at all stages, and covering for our overall lack of pace. Ideally, a lower tempo will also attract opponents towards the ball, creating openings. My hope is that a lower tempo is compatible with the number of our players who tend to dwell on the ball anyway, while those who dictate tempo will be able to situationally create some variance. 

Shorter Passing - This plus lower tempo is generally seen as something of a no-no, creating "possession for possession's sake" -- but that's kind of our goal! Ball retention is our highest priority to start the campaign, with the intention of being difficult to beat by controlling the ball. I'm not sure whether the ME actually works this way, but my hope is that shorter passing + lower tempo will give my players the time to come short to show for a pass. The dispersion of our players on the pitch should mean that there is always an option somewhere. 

Play Out of Defence - Self-explanatory, but might be redundant with the GK distribution settings + shorter passing + low tempo. 

Be More Expressive - This is the instruction I'm most skeptical of using on a consistent basis. Frankly, I don't have a very clear understanding of the behavior created when you push this button, which is a very bad reason to push the button! My hope is that this would allow for some deviation/variance from our default very very safe style. 

Standard Attacking Width - I see no reason to change this setting. My player roles create a natural emphasis on playing towards the goal with passing outlets on the overlap. 

Play for Set Pieces - This instruction is not active, but should I consider it with my stated goal of creating dead ball situations for Viviani to exploit?

 

Player Roles and Duties:

DLF-s

IW-a        SS-a        IF-s

DM-d       RPM-s

WB-s/FB-a   CB-d     CB-d       WB-s

GK-d

I have experimented fairly successfully with using Overlap Left when the LB is played as WB-s in order to increase his mentality without unnecessarily encouraging crosses.

One potential area of concern is a lack of solidity on the side of the Roaming Playmaker, and a lack of support on the left side with the DM on a defend duty.

I also wonder whether the SS is too aggressive/direct for our style of play. Perhaps an AP-a instead? 

Spoiler

 

I also developed a hyper-fluid setup for the hell of it:

DLF-s

IW/F-s       AP-a       IW/F-s

DM-s       DM-s

WB-s     CB-d     CB-d     WB-s

GK-d

 

 

 

The Results So Far

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GP: 14 W:  7 D: 6 L: 1
GF: 13 (0.93 per game) GA: 10 (0.71 per game)

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Getting to the 4th round of the Coppa Italia is a good result for us, but we face a tough matchup against Fiorentina.

The obvious problem we have is scoring goals. If we aren't able to keep a clean sheet it becomes much less likely that we will get all 3 points. Becoming reliably dangerous enough to score 2 goals would be a huge step forward.

Mazzeo (DLF-s) and Braken (SS-a) have struggled to play together in the way I had hoped when creating the tactic. For the most part Mazzeo stays fairly high while Braken shows for the ball from the DMs. I had expected more lateral movement from the SS with Moves into Channels creating space for the DLF-s to drop into, but perhaps that instruction is primarily an on-the-ball movement? Maybe the addition of a roaming instruction would be beneficial to actually get them linking together in the final third. 

As might be expected with such a low-tempo system, building central attacks is difficult when your opponent has plenty of time to defend the key area in front of their box. My players might be lacking the technique, passing, vision, first touch, and anticipation to play balls into feet at the edge of the area. I do see this happening occasionally when we are able to move the defenders around, but not consistently enough. Our favorite ball in the final third is out to the naturally overlapping WB-s on either side. This is a reliable way to get the defenders turned around, but it's still an easier space to defend. Our most dangerous pass is an angled chip behind the fullback, but often the pass is slightly overhit or the recipient (the AML/R) lacks the technique to control the ball properly.

Although I haven't taken the time to design our set-pieces, they have proved a natural threat: Out of 13 goals we have 3 goals from corners and 2 from free kicks. If there are any good threads on creating set piece routines, please link them!

Our control over the ball has been excellent: the highest possession % in the league (61%) and the most passes (nearly 600 per game). I do not want to abandon our principles of dictating the flow of the game, just introduce some subtle tweaks to help us become more incisive.

While our tactical familiarity is already very high, I am open to the possibility that a big part of the way forward is developing partnerships throughout the team by persisting with a consistent tactical approach and team selections. However, I also think that a more intentional selection of the 3 roles behind the striker could have a big impact.

Edited by Prolix
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First of all, I’m doing an fm21 save with Livorno that I’m chronicling in the careers forum so it’s very interesting to see your take on the team, which is very similar at the start. I’ve also taken the possession approach, but I’ve been running a 3-4-1-2 so it’s very different!

In terms of feedback, I think one issue I see is congestion in the attacking third. All four forward players will be largely attacking the same space.  Mazzeo does well coming deep, and I see why you’ve matched him w Braken as a SS, but with the two outside players also attacking the middle you’ll have too many players running in the same space in the same direction which makes them easy to defend. If you want those two wingers cutting in, I think you’ll need to make Braken an AM(s), which also suits him. If not, I think Marsura would do well as a winger on the left - he’ll still come infield, but he’ll do so higher up the pitch which will spread their defense out and allow him to play with the LB more. (Full disclosure, I dumped Marsura in the first transfer window...)

It seems you’ve got things working well however, so keep up the good work! I had some real trouble early on (still do!) with their very meh overall physicals, aggression, and lack of determination, and it looks like you’ve found a way to make them tick pretty consistently.

I’ll be curious to see how your save evolves and the tactic develops!

 

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  • Prolix changed the title to [FM20] 4-2-3-1 Possession system - Building on stability
On 17/04/2021 at 22:31, 13th Man said:

First of all, I’m doing an fm21 save with Livorno that I’m chronicling in the careers forum so it’s very interesting to see your take on the team, which is very similar at the start. I’ve also taken the possession approach, but I’ve been running a 3-4-1-2 so it’s very different!

I spent my entire Sunday afternoon reading through your thread! Very enjoyable. thank you for sharing your journey! I get a kick out of imagining that I'm on an alternative timeline trying to keep your version of reality, relegation to Serie C, from happening. :D

I found it especially interesting how we approached the club from different angles and ended up agreeing on certain principles but not others. It goes to show how there's not one "right" answer in this game.

I plan to return to my save this week and hopefully come back with some tweaks to make us as dangerous as you have been on your return to Serie B! 

Edited by Prolix
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7 hours ago, Prolix said:

I spent my entire Sunday afternoon reading through your thread! Very enjoyable. thank you for sharing your journey! I get a kick out of imagining that I'm on an alternative timeline trying to keep your version of reality, relegation to Serie C, from happening. :D

I found it especially interesting how we approached the club from different angles and ended up agreeing on certain principles but not others. It goes to show how there's not one "right" answer in this game.

I plan to return to my save this week and hopefully come back with some tweaks to make us as dangerous as you have been on your return to Serie B! 

Glad you enjoyed it!  I've had a lot of fun writing it so far.  There was definitely a lot to get through!

Very much looking forward to your alternate reality save.  Really does look like you've gotten them off to a solid start to the year from what you've shown in your post, and it's looking like a solid upper mid-table finish for you at least.  The team is certainly of Serie B quality overall, but it's been a lot of work to cover the deficiencies/lack of variety in the players.  But that's what's so fun about this game!

Edited by 13th Man
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I've made it to the beginning of January still in 6th place, but...

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The only thing keeping us from dropping to the foot of the table is our disproportionate number of goalless draws.

I have a tendency to move towards the 4-1-4-1 DM Wide whenever things get tough, and the same has happened here. I didn't like a few things about the 4-2-3-1 DM posted in the OP:

  • it was very easy for opposing teams to isolate the two players in the double pivot from each other, cutting out passing options and forcing really risky square passes across the center of the pitch
  • rather than being helpful with the lower tempo, the high starting positions of the 4 forwards resulted in space in the final third being far too congested, with no one finding space in between lines

I also adjust the LOE back to standard as we have no longer had the same control over the ball as we did at the start of the season and were excessively passive about winning it back.

The current tactic:

DLF-s/PF-s

IW-s                                   IF-a

BWM-s     MEZ-S

DLP-D

WB-a     CB-d   CB-d     WB-s

GK-d

Balanced Mentality

Shorter Passing

Dribble Less

Be More Expressive

Lower Tempo

Distribute to CBs/FBs

Standard DL/LOE

Standard Pressing

Use Tighter Marking

 

My feeling is that clearly the system is too cautious to be threatening, but I'm unsure what changes to make without the personnel who can take advantage of more direct/quicker play.

My best idea would be to switch to some form of 3-5-2 (probably 3-4-1-2 -- :brock: @13th Man) in order to overload the central attacking positions (like every other team in Serie B seems to do :seagull:) and get all of Mazzeo, Simovic, and Braken on the pitch together.

Edited by Prolix
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  • Prolix changed the title to [FM20] Defending with Possession

Are you getting beat with long balls over the top? If not, moving the DL higher could help you increase possession and keep the ball in more dangerous places.  I know your best CB is slow but you've got no pace to play on the counter either.  As you read, I struggled with the same issue with this team, and so I went all out on possession.  I guess it's pick your poison - score more but let in more,  or don't score and don't let any in?  It's a tough one!  I normally hate conceding goals, but I made peace with it if my team managed to score 2+...

You might also try a 4-1-2-1-2? Marsura makes a good AF as does Mazzeo (doesn't look to have 'comes deep' in your save), Simovic DLF, Braken as the AM?  Though your WBs might not have the offensive quality or stamina to provide the necessary width (don't know who you have), I actually like using converted wingers that are okay defensively.

Food for thought, but you're still keeping the wheels on and keeping them from getting relegated so you're doing okay!

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On 21/04/2021 at 19:08, 13th Man said:

Are you getting beat with long balls over the top? If not, moving the DL higher could help you increase possession and keep the ball in more dangerous places.  I know your best CB is slow but you've got no pace to play on the counter either. 

My defensive line has been juuuuust about able to cope with Standard. Any higher would definitely cause problems. I went on a nice run of 3W, 1D, 2L with 8 goals scored after my last update. I continue to only score back-post crosses from one WB or winger to the other, though. Getting any interplay/penetration in central areas has been nearly impossible. Our heatmaps always have a dead zone around the penalty arc. Although we didn't concede many, I also felt consistently vulnerable down the flanks using WB role fullbacks and wide attackers in the AM strata. (We just aren't high enough quality.)

It seems almost inevitable that I would land on giving 3-atb a go. Since I'm safe from relegation (I'm somehow sitting 6th right now, despite scoring goals at a bottom-of-the-table rate), I have experimented with pulling Silvestre out of the side and upping the tempo back to standard to try and prepare myself for next season. Hilariously, Simovic AND Mazzeo both scored in their first game up top together in a 5-1-2-2 WB:

PF-s     DLF-a

 

BWM-s     MEZ-s

WB-s             DLP-s             WB-s

CB-d     CB-s     CB-d

GK-d

 

It's disappointing to end up so far from my original tactical vision, but I'm out of ideas whether the tactical flaw was instruction/role/duty related or that I don't have the quality of player (off the ball, anticipation, technique, passing) to play within the original framework. I think it's also highly relevant that so many Italian sides pack the central area with players -- which makes absolute sense, why allow easy access to the most dangerous part of the pitch? 

Still, it's troubling that 40/59 assists have come from crosses, corners, and set pieces.

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You also don't have much penetration from you midfield - not a single role with attack duty. It's a very conservative, safe shape (and on Balanced team mentality) you are using so the overall lack of goals is not surprising at all. 

Your two strikers probably tend to get isolated with so little midfield movement in their area. So naturally your wingbacks have no choice but to cross to them. They can't really do lay-offs to the onrushing attackers from deep. 

Edited by crusadertsar
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7 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

You also don't have much penetration from you midfield - not a single role with attack duty. It's a very conservative, safe shape (and on Balanced team mentality) you are using so the overall lack of goals is not surprising at all. 

The most obvious idea (to me) would be to release the Mezzala to an attacking duty. I don't know why I've been so nervous to do so, I think worrying about losing my solidity when the support-duty Mezzala is already fairly attacking. But... that's why there's 3 CBs and a DM behind him I suppose! 

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4 minutes ago, Prolix said:

The most obvious idea (to me) would be to release the Mezzala to an attacking duty. I don't know why I've been so nervous to do so, I think worrying about losing my solidity when the support-duty Mezzala is already fairly attacking. But... that's why there's 3 CBs and a DM behind him I suppose! 

 I would do it. You will see the difference right away.

You have a potential to have a very solid midfield trio: holder DLP, destroyer BWM and runner Mezzala (Attack). Everything you need from your midfield. 

Just make sure to put Mezzala on the side of your support striker.

Edited by crusadertsar
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3 minutes ago, Prolix said:

@crusadertsar

Do you see any potential issues with a PF-s DLF-a partnership up top? I have very little experience in FM with playing 2 strikers together (in previous editions I've always gravitated back to 4-1-4-1 DM Wide).

They both hold up the ball (although DLF on attack does it closer to the box) so having onrushing attack minded players from deep is even more important. But it could work as long as your midfield is set up to work well with two strikers like that.

Edited by crusadertsar
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I think @crusaderstar is right about the mezzala.  When I'm playing without an AMC the mezzala needs to be in the thick of things offensively to support the strikers.  I think, though, I'd go with a PF(a) and a DLF (s).  Weirdly, I've also found both of them work well on attack duty, but that is usually with the AMC behind them (on support duty).

On your 3atb formation - I wouldn't have both a CBs and a DM as they'll cover the same space.  You could put that DLP into the midfield and have them on support duty to be a little closer to the action to recycle possession.  If you want to keep the DM, maybe go MEZ(a) and a BTB that will act a bit like the BWM but give a bit more forward thrust.  With 3atb and a DM, you have plenty of defensive cover.

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