Making best use of a False-Nine-like player

[stopazricky]

Hello guys! I'm currently in 2025/26 season with Atalanta and after trying for literally 5 seasons, I signed Pedri.
The dude has 19 Dribbling, 17 Acceleration, 17 to 18 Technique/Vision/Passing etc. Because of all of this, even though his Finishing is only 13, I elected to play him in ST position as a F9 in a very standard 4-3-3 with two Inside Forwards. Given what an F9 is in real life, I expected him to pretty much play as an advanced playmaker and also score a few goals taking advantage of his great mental attributes.
At the beginning of the season, bookmakers were dead sure he was gonna be Serie A's player of the season. No player in the league comes close to being as good as he is and looking at the stats (goals and assists) he's delivering. However...

I just can't seem to squeeze the lemon enough. I Focus Play through the middle, but even then he doesn't really touch that many balls throughout a game. He just didn't drop deep nearly enough or as often as I expected, so out of curiosity I used the Editor to add that trait and things improved, but not by much. When he does receive the ball between the lines, he typically passes it back even though the tempo is high and he's got Take more risks and More Direct Passing as PIs. He almost never attempts dribbles in spite of both TIs and PIs asking him to (Note: he's at maximum Tactial Familiarity). He plays more balls in the box than out of it, and he typically wastes obvious chances.
What's annoying is that when he actually does what I want him to (less than once a game), I swear that he's uncomparably better than any other player I've seen in this Match Engine. There's even a few crazy animations that I have only seen performed by him. 

So:
1) Regarding the F9 in the ME as a whole, are you guys having any luck with it? As I said, I don't see him behaving differenly enough from an Advanced Forward. Granted, it's not the same, but it's not as much of a fundamental difference as it should be, imho.
2) Why isn't there a TI/PI "Pass the ball to player X more often?". I see it as a fundamental part of a tactic and something that isn't necessarily implied by roles (except maybe for the Target Man, I guess).
3) What Position/Role/Duty would you suggest for a Messi-like player (Pedri, Havertz, Felix, those guys), if you were to build a squad around them? I tried Trequartista in ACM, but given I'm playing an AV behind him and a CM that Gets Further Forward, they were all pretty much in each other's way.

Sorry for the wall of text, I can provide the tactics (or screenshoot it) if the context I've given isn't enough.

[Experienced Defender]

You need to post a screenshot of your whole tactic, because roles work through interaction with one another to form a tactical system (not in isolation). Any role will behave differently within different tactical setups. So even if a player is great in terms of his attributes and perfectly fits a certain role (like F9 in this case), it still does not guarantee that he will perform well. Because the role you play him in needs to make sense when viewed in the context of your whole tactic. The same applies to any other role or player. 

The first thing you need to make sure is that your tactic has no contradictory elements and no tactical overkill. 

5 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

I can provide the tactics (or screenshoot it) if the context I've given isn't enough

Yes, please 

[stopazricky]

https://imgur.com/a/O7WMk77

These are the specific PIs that I added manually:
CM - Get Further Forward, Dribble More, Take More Risks, Move Into Channels
Full Backs - Cut Inside, Sit Narrower, Dribble Less, Shoot Less

Thank you for your support

[stopazricky]

17 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

You need to post a screenshot of your whole tactic, because roles work through interaction with one another to form a tactical system (not in isolation). Any role will behave differently within different tactical setups. So even if a player is great in terms of his attributes and perfectly fits a certain role (like F9 in this case), it still does not guarantee that he will perform well. Because the role you play him in needs to make sense when viewed in the context of your whole tactic. The same applies to any other role or player. 

The first thing you need to make sure is that your tactic has no contradictory elements and no tactical overkill. 

Yes, please 

Btw I'm quoting, because I don't know whether this forum sends notifications regardless lol

[Lordluap]

My immediate thought is to removed the AP so play may get focussed more through the F9?

That said I've only ever really seen the "true" F9-esque movement when playing a true natural in-game F9 with the relevant traits (a Newgen in an old save) and even then it was hit-and-miss.

 

[stopazricky]

27 minutes ago, Lordluap said:

My immediate thought is to removed the AP so play may get focussed more through the F9?

That said I've only ever really seen the "true" F9-esque movement when playing a true natural in-game F9 with the relevant traits (a Newgen in an old save) and even then it was hit-and-miss.

 

Thank you for your input! I feel like there needs to be multiple people feeding balls to the IFs. My main inspiration for this kind of tactic is 2010s Barcelona, where there were pretty much 5 playmakers lol Of course the approach is pretty different (high tempo etc.) and there's quite a few tactical elements that I can't accurately replicate because I'm bad lol
I will definitely take your suggestion into consideration though, especially if other people agree!

[CaptCanuck]

Firstly focusing on 1 player/role can get a little tunnel visiony - so important to keep the big picture of what you want the whole attacking phase to be, as opposed to just the one guy.

YMMV of course, but I found a PF(s) or PF(d) and DLF(s) will drop into the midfield no prob. I get you want all that F9 wizardry, but how about a run of matches as a DLF(s)? Obviously a player with the comes deep for the ball trait will surely help too.

Agree with the above that an AP(a) could be stealing his thunder, change him to a CM(s) with some PIs if need be. Just because you don't have a designated playmaker doesn't mean players won't try to create scoring chances ;-) I've been using 'generic' AM/CM/DM midfield roles almost exclusively in FM21 and have no prob creating chances/scoring. Less F9 specific, just a general observation.

Generally speaking as well that's 9 attacking TIs you've got there, maybe pair those down some?

Not F9 specific - but with 'Roll it out' and 'Play out of defence', there is no need for 'Distribute to CBs' and 'Distribute to FBs'.

Edited March 29, 2021 by CaptCanuck

[Yellowbucket58]

A few weeks ago I started a Barca save to test out a 4-3-3 given their quality of players being good for a possession tactic. Initially started out with Messi as an F9 and while he did drop and at times dragged defenders felt he wasn't as involved in the build up play as much as I would have liked. After a whole season of tweaking and testing things out I landed on playing him as a complete forward(Attack) and the difference was night and day. He finished the season as my top scorer and while he didn't necessarily have the same amount of assist he does in real life he was still very much involved in the build up play. Think he averaged around 50-60 passes per games and finished with about 10-15 assist in all comps that season, can't quite recall. 

Don't think it needs stating, but while Pedri is great Messi does have some excellent attributes and perfect PPMs for F9-type play such as drops deep to get ball, plays one-twos and like to switch ball to other flank, which made his link up play with the IF and IW quite potent. His finishing is also great so maybe Pedri won't be able to exactly replicate what FM Messi can do but he certainly has the attributes to play well there. 

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, stopazricky said:

https://imgur.com/a/O7WMk77

These are the specific PIs that I added manually:
CM - Get Further Forward, Dribble More, Take More Risks, Move Into Channels
Full Backs - Cut Inside, Sit Narrower, Dribble Less, Shoot Less

Thank you for your support

Unfortunately, your tactic contains way too many flaws. The use of so many needless team instructions is one of them. Basically, at least half of them - and probably even more - should be removed.

Let's now focus on your setup of roles and duties, which is the most important part of any tactic. The most obvious problem here is that the role of your both fullbacks is too conservative to properly support their inside-oriented wide partners up front, especially in such an attack-minded tactic like yours.

When it comes specifically to the F9 issue, I have to agree with @Lordluap and his observation: 

2 hours ago, Lordluap said:

My immediate thought is to removed the AP so play may get focussed more through the F9?

Of course, it's quite possible that this tweak alone would not suffice, given other flaws in your tactic, which also need to be addressed. But anyway, Lordluap's observation is very much spot on  

Your extreme insistence on attacking through the middle can also backfire, even if you are doing that in an attempt to make the most of your F9 striker. Because that way you are creating a tactical overkill, which is never good in any tactic. 

An instruction such as pass into space also makes no sense in a tactic like yours that very much restricts the space, both by its aggressiveness in the defensive phase of play and by the narrowing of attacking play. 

For any element of a tactic to work, it must be in logical harmony with other elements of that tactic. Simply adding one instruction after another without thinking whether they make sense or not essentially turns a tactic into a total mess.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, stopazricky said:

My main inspiration for this kind of tactic is 2010s Barcelona, where there were pretty much 5 playmakers

Playmaker as a type of player and playmaker as a role within a tactic are different things. If a player has good playmaking abilities, it does not mean that you must play him in a playmaker role. In the Barca of 2010 you mentioned, the only playmaker was Xavi in terms of the role within the tactic. Iniesta was much more of a mezzala than a playmaker role (even though he was as good at playmaking as Xavi). 

[stopazricky]

Thank you to everybody who's posted - it's much appreciated
I'm definitely going to remove the AP(a) as it's general consensus in the thread that he's probably receiving some of the passes that should be directed to the F9.

2 hours ago, CaptCanuck said:

how about a run of matches as a DLF(s)?

I did try that, but to be honest, it was only a couple of games tops. It didn't seem to work, but I might give it another try.

 

1 hour ago, Yellowbucket58 said:

I landed on playing him as a complete forward(Attack) and the difference was night and day.

I restrained from trying that because by reading the description it felt like a CF would receive long aerial balls from his teammates and would work like a Target Man - which of course Pedri is terrible at. If that's not the case and worked for Messi (who's even weaker physically), then I might try that! Maybe on Support so that he's not constantly in front of the goal (and failing to score)?

 

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

For any element of a tactic to work, it must be in logical harmony with other elements of that tactic. Simply adding one instruction after another without thinking whether they make sense or not essentially turns a tactic into a total mess.

Thanks for your insights! To be fair, I swear I did think about all of the instructions - I've done it poorly and got it all very wrong, but that's a whole other can of worms lol

For example, my reasoning behind Pass Into Space was that it would encourage through balls. It's probably an instruction meant for completely different situations (hoofing it wide to Wingers looking to cross from deep, perhaps), but I was previously struggling with players passing it to feet way too much and never exploiting gaps in the opposition defensive lines. Pass Into Space looks to have fixed the issue, but the improvement I've seen is likely due to something else so I'll try ticking it off and see what changes.

Is that off topic if I ask you which instructions you'd look to remove?

[Experienced Defender]

31 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

For example, my reasoning behind Pass Into Space was that it would encourage through balls

Through balls are just one type of passes into space. But the pass into space instruction applies to a lot more situations than through balls. For example, a CB can pass the ball into space for a fullback, which has nothing to do with a killer through ball. 

 

33 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

Is that off topic if I ask you which instructions you'd look to remove?

It's not off topic, but the first thing you need to sort out (before the instructions) is the setup of roles and duties. That's what primarily defines your playing style. Instructions are secondary.

But the key thing to remember is that different elements of a tactic - roles, duties and instructions - must be viewed as integral parts of a coherent system. Because they work exclusively through interaction, not in isolation. The same role will behave differently within different tactical setups, even if played by the same player. 

[Andros]

hi @stopazricky, consider this:

 

After making some changes to the roles and duties, dont advance the game.  Create a new save game just before a match, call it "tactics play around" or something similar, and repeatedly play the same match.  First time - remove all TIs and watch the game in full and see what happens.  Then replay the match and only add 1 TI if there is something you see that needs to be changed.  Watch the match on full again and then replay again with only one more TI.  Rinse and repeat.  Maybe that can help identify what TIs are really needed.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

F9 in game is not really too similar to how Messi played as an F9 for Barcelona.

For the in-game role, I find it best when paired with another striker or if using as a lone striker, with a runner from behind (be that Mez(A), CM(A) or a Shadow Striker in AM slot). A wide man that aggressively attacks the space in the latter scenario is good too.

[stopazricky]

9 hours ago, Andros said:

After making some changes to the roles and duties, dont advance the game.  Create a new save game just before a match, call it "tactics play around" or something similar, and repeatedly play the same match. 

Yeah I was thinking about something like that. 

 

52 minutes ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

F9 in game is not really too similar to how Messi played as an F9 for Barcelona.

If that's the case than the ME needs tweaking in that regard, as I believe its primary focus should be simulating real football as close as possible. To be honest, I believe it already does a very good job although it's obviously far from perfect (and probably will never be).

 

12 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

the first thing you need to sort out (before the instructions) is the setup of roles and duties. That's what primarily defines your playing style. Instructions are secondary.

Yeah that makes sense. Apart from the FBs being not aggressive enough, what else should I look into?

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, stopazricky said:

Apart from the FBs being not aggressive enough, what else should I look into?

The AP was also mentioned in the context of your intention to make the F9 as influential as possible. But if you simply just change the AP into a different role without considering the rest of the setup and potential tweaks elsewhere, that change alone will probably mean little (if anything). 

The CM on support duty in MCL is another role I personally would look to avoid in this type of system. Because if the MCR is supposed to act as an attacking midfield runner, then the other CM should be played in a different type of role - i.e. one that operates from a deeper area and can therefore help to recycle possession when needed and serve as a potential passion options to the F9 in situations when more advanced teammates are either not available for a pass or such passing option is a bit too risky.

Last but not least, I would also look to be more creative/less one-dimensional with attacking patterns, because your players are not alone on the pitch. There is also the opposition you need to break down by intelligent creation and utilization of space through interaction between your roles and duties.

I know how I would set up your roles and duties, but the goal here is that you figure them out yourself by logical thinking.

[stopazricky]

8 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I know how I would set up your roles and duties, but the goal here is that you figure them out yourself by logical thinking.

Thanks for the insights! I had in mind to have a CM(a) to be the guy that makes runs from the midfield, and have the other one playing deeper (but obviously not as deep as my DM). I was going to go for a CM(s) there, who does not Get Further Forward and so I'd expect him to sit deeper (maybe even specifically telling him to Hold Position would be beneficial?)
Otherwise, if the double role - although being the "generic" one and with different PIs - is a no-no, another Idea I would consider is a BWM who would most definitely be defensively minded and stay deep, but maybe that's a bit too much for an offensive tactic like that (given that the DM already does that).

[Experienced Defender]

37 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

Thanks for the insights! I had in mind to have a CM(a) to be the guy that makes runs from the midfield, and have the other one playing deeper (but obviously not as deep as my DM). I was going to go for a CM(s) there, who does not Get Further Forward and so I'd expect him to sit deeper (maybe even specifically telling him to Hold Position would be beneficial?)
Otherwise, if the double role - although being the "generic" one and with different PIs - is a no-no, another Idea I would consider is a BWM who would most definitely be defensively minded and stay deep, but maybe that's a bit too much for an offensive tactic like that (given that the DM already does that).

Better post that whole (new) tactic as you envision it (or at least sketch it out instead of a screenshot) 

[stopazricky]

16 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Better post that whole (new) tactic as you envision it (or at least sketch it out instead of a screenshot) 

Well, here's a sketch, I guess:

                          F9(s)
IF(a)                                               IF(a)
 
              CM(a)              CM(s)

                           DM(s)

WB(s)?    CB(d)         CB(d)         WB(s)?


CM(s) has Hold Position, Take More Risks
DM (s) Dribbles less, Shoots less, Fewer Risks


To be honest I'm most clueless with the FBs. Do I need a more attacking role?  never noticed anything off with them, but they also kinda don't do anything in particular so there's much room for improvement for sure

[Experienced Defender]

44 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

To be honest I'm most clueless with the FBs. Do I need a more attacking role?

No, your current fullbacks' role (WBsu) is quite good. What you need is a more appropriate selection of roles and distribution of duties elsewhere.

Something like this as an example:

F9

IFat                               IWsu

DLPsu   MEZat

HB

WBsu   CDde  CDde   WBsu

And the only player instruction - roam from position for the F9 (to give him as much freedom of movement as possible to take advantage of). 

Now compare this setup with yours and think about the tweaks I made. Do you understand why I made them?

[stopazricky]

On 31/03/2021 at 16:16, Experienced Defender said:

Now compare this setup with yours and think about the tweaks I made. Do you understand why I made them?

Well, not a lot. Let's see:
-If the HB is crucially different from the DM with the PIs I set earlier, I have no clue how or why. Maybe he looks to drop deep to help out the CDs more?
-The Mezzala was pretty much what I had in mind anyway, and I set quite a lot of the PIs that come with that to my CM(a). The only reason why I wasn't going for it is because of the PI to stay wide. Is he not going to end up where the IW would be (in the half-spaces)? To me it always felt like Mezzalas were most appropriate with Wingers or in a Diamond formation. What am I missing?
-I don't get the IW. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the main difference between an IF and an IW is that an IF would be pretty passive and try and get on the other end of killer balls, whereas the IW cuts inside with the ball more than he does without it and is more proactive. Is that correct?
-I don't understand the benefit of the DLP. Isn't the HB already dropping to receive from the defenders and pass the ball to someone else higher up the pitch? If so, what does the DLP add to that? Is he maybe going for longer and/or riskier passes? Why would that be beneficial? Also, since DLPs have a tendency to drop deep to get the ball, is he not going to end up where the HB is?

[Experienced Defender]

8 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

Well, not a lot. Let's see:
-If the HB is crucially different from the DM with the PIs I set earlier, I have no clue how or why. Maybe he looks to drop deep to help out the CDs more?

HB is an ideal role for the DM when you play both fullbacks in attack-minded roles (WB on support duty is considered attack-minded, because he is hard-coded to get forward). 

But it does not necessarily have to be HB. DM on defend duty is a good alternative if your player does not have enough attributes for the HB role. 

12 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

-The Mezzala was pretty much what I had in mind anyway, and I set quite a lot of the PIs that come with that to my CM(a)

Nothing wrong with the CM on attack (if your player is not good enough for the mezzala role, which is admittedly more demanding than CM). The reason I opted for the mezzala in this particular setup is its creative potential and a lot of movement the role offers in the final third. But if you played the striker in a roaming role such as CF or TQ, then I would prefer the CM on attack over the mezzala (so as to avoid too much roaming). 

Keep also in mind that manually added PIs are never effective like hard-coded ones, so a CM will play differently from mezzala, regardless of the PIs you add. 

17 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

The only reason why I wasn't going for it is because of the PI to stay wide. Is he not going to end up where the IW would be (in the half-spaces)? To me it always felt like Mezzalas were most appropriate with Wingers or in a Diamond formation. What am I missing?

The mezzala works very nicely with both IW and IF as long as they are on different duties - ideally the mezzala on attack and IW/IF on support - because that creates nice interaction between them and helps create an overload in those half-spaces. Precisely because the IW/IF cuts inside, while the mezzala tends to drift a bit wider and roam. 

On the other hand, CM on attack can work okay with IW on support, but I prefer to pair him with the classic winger (as he provides width and allows the CM to make more direct attacking runs). 

23 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

I don't get the IW. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the main difference between an IF and an IW is that an IF would be pretty passive and try and get on the other end of killer balls, whereas the IW cuts inside with the ball more than he does without it and is more proactive. Is that correct?

IF and IW are fairly similar in terms of attacking movement. The key difference is that the IW is more of a midfielder, while the IF is more of a forward. And that's exactly why I opted to pair the (attacking) mezzala with the (supporting) IW (as opposed to IF) - to get better balance by combining an attacking player (mezzala) with a bit more moderate one (IW). 

 

27 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

I don't understand the benefit of the DLP. Isn't the HB already dropping to receive from the defenders and pass the ball to someone else higher up the pitch? If so, what does the DLP add to that? Is he maybe going for longer and/or riskier passes? Why would that be beneficial? Also, since DLPs have a tendency to drop deep to get the ball, is he not going to end up where the HB is?

I picked the DLP in central midfield because:

1. It's a role that interacts very nicely with deep striker roles (F9 and DLF on support);

2. as a holding midfield role, it offers defensive protection (cover) for your fairly attack-minded left flank (with the attacking IF and also attack-minded WB on support)

But if you don't want the DLP in your setup, optimal alternatives are BWM on support duty or carrilero (depending on the type of player who plays in that position). 

[stopazricky]

Thanks a lot for your help! Let me just ask you a few more things:
1) What was exactly wrong, initially (back when I had the AP(a) etc.), with the FB(s) I had in Full Back position?

2)

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

1. It's a role that interacts very nicely with deep striker roles (F9 and DLF on support);

What do you mean by this? Is a DLP more likely than other roles in CM to pass the ball to a deep central striker? Can you describe such interactions?

3)

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Keep also in mind that manually added PIs are never effective like hard-coded ones, so a CM will play differently from mezzala, regardless of the PIs you add. 

Wow. This is massive news, especially because the game doesn't do a good job at communicating that. With the PI screen open, it does not feel like the light green "compulsory" IPs have any more relevance than the others. Does it also mean that, to use an extreme example, a BWM (who's always on "Get Stuck In" as a PI) will be more aggresive with his tackles than, say, a CM with that PI? (Same PPMs, same Aggresiveness etc.).

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, stopazricky said:

1) What was exactly wrong, initially (back when I had the AP(a) etc.), with the FB(s) I had in Full Back position?

I think it was already explained regarding the AP - if you want your F9 to be as influential as possible, then you obviously don't want a playmaker role that operates in the same area. 

As for the FB on support, the role is simply too conservative to consistently provide sufficient attacking support to his wide partner who tends to cut inside (IF), especially considering that your tactical styleis attack-minded and aggressive.

The same applies to the FB on support on the opposite (left) flank, where you also have an inside oriented role up front (IF again). 

1 hour ago, stopazricky said:

What do you mean by this? Is a DLP more likely than other roles in CM to pass the ball to a deep central striker? Can you describe such interactions?

DLP is a holding midfield role that operates from deeper midfield areas compared to the AP. The reason for (potentially) good interaction between the DLP and F9 (or DLF) is that these striker roles also tend to drop deeper in the build-up phase, which makes them more available to the DLP as passing options in the attacking third. Another advantage of the DLP over the AP in relation to the F9/DLF is that DLP does not operate in the same area as the F9 and therefore will not undermine his influence (unlike the more advanced AP). Remember that you wanted your F9 to be your key player, which is important for the context of this discussion. 

 

1 hour ago, stopazricky said:

Wow. This is massive news, especially because the game doesn't do a good job at communicating that. With the PI screen open, it does not feel like the light green "compulsory" IPs have any more relevance than the others

Well, that's pretty logical even without an in-game explanation/description, because otherwise specialist roles would not need to exist in the game at all. 

 

1 hour ago, stopazricky said:

Does it also mean that, to use an extreme example, a BWM (who's always on "Get Stuck In" as a PI) will be more aggresive with his tackles than, say, a CM with that PI? (Same PPMs, same Aggresiveness etc.)

Yes, assuming everything else is equal. In other words, if you play a player in the BWM role, he will be more aggressive than if you play that same player as a standard CM with the hard tackling PI added. Which is quite logical IMO. 

[stopazricky]

23 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, that's pretty logical even without an in-game explanation/description, because otherwise specialist roles would not need to exist in the game at all. 

Yeah that makes sense.

One last concern: Isn't the DLP(s) gonna be dropping essentially where the HB is? A holding midfielder role that's good at moving the ball is exactly what I need, but I'm afraid the DLP would drop close to my defensive line (which would create a huge gap in the midfield). How and when do DLP's drop deep?

[Experienced Defender]

47 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

One last concern: Isn't the DLP(s) gonna be dropping essentially where the HB is?  A holding midfielder role that's good at moving the ball is exactly what I need, but I'm afraid the DLP would drop close to my defensive line (which would create a huge gap in the midfield). How and when do DLP's drop deep?

Roles behave differently in different phases of play, which means they are not static. Both HB and DLP will drop deeper in the build-up phase, but as the attack progresses - they'll move higher up accordingly. But the HB and DLP do not conflict with each other - if that's your concern, After all, players need to be close enough to one another to provide safe passing options in different phases of attack. Some roles interact nicely when they are close in space, others don't. When it comes to HB in DM and DLP in CM, there is no conflict between them. 

Btw, the Play out of defence team instructions encourages the entire midfield to drop a bit deeper to help defenders bring the ball from the back.

[stopazricky]

14 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

But the HB and DLP do not conflict with each other - if that's your concern,

Great news, thanks!
Btw, that's enough for now, thank you for your continued support. I'll be posting a question along these lines in another thread, as it's a much, much more general doubt about roles. I'd be happy if you could contribute there as well

[stopazricky]

I'm back with horrible news - I've come to terms with the fact that F9s in lone striker position do not work in FM21.
In life I generally assume I'm wrong whenever in doubt, especially regarding subjects I'm not an expert on - such as FM or real football for that matter. However, I've just come to discard that option after having carefully weighted it since first posting.

I've copied the tactic @Experienced Defendersuggested and removed pretty much every single TI or PI (except focus play through the middle, play out of defence and low crosses). The F9 gets a ball to his feet between the lines once or twice a game and that's it. I've seen situations where, while there was a nice pocket of space to run into by dropping deeper to get the ball, the F9 attacked the space like an AF(a) instead. He just does nothing in the build up play and, with this few TIs and a setup of roles and duties that I literally ripped off of a very experienced guy, I can officially claim that this is happening through no fault of my own.
We're talking a guy who has 17 Off the Ball, 18 Intuition, the Drops deep to get the ball player trait, I mean, the player is alright and so are the other guys - trust me.

Now, before someone comes and says "but hey, it's working wonders for me", let's make sure we're on the same page with regards to the expected output.
What I would expect is my entire offensive play to be based around getting the ball to that one dude's feet and react from him doing stuff. I don't particularly care if that's a good idea or not, it's just the way I want to see the tactics unfold, regardless of results. I was winning every game I was testing tactics in, I have 0 losses throughout all competitions in February, even with the horrible tactics I was using earlier, that's just not the point. 
I expect the F9 to pick up the ball pretty much every time my team successfully transitions into the attacking phase. My players' AI should work like this: "Is the dude free and reasonably within reach? If yes, I'll pass the ball to him". 

I'm in the middle of testing the "False Nine" as a CF(s). In the meantime, here's my questions I still have no answer for:

-Why does a game with such unbelievable depth as FM not have a TI/PI such as "Pass to player X more often"? It's such a basic football concept that I just feel the need of. It's not even about Messi in Barcelona type of stuff, I'm talking Sweden being instructed to look for Ibra, Poland with Lewandowski, and many better examples. Even though it might not be winning the UCL any time soon, the "hoof the ball to your top player and hope for the best" tactic is very much a thing in professional football.
I mean, currently, in FM21, GKs can be instructed to do that, so why can't it be done for everyone else?

-If I were to completely disregard the 4-3-3 and start over with a tactic completely built around a player's dribbling and creative abilities, what do you suggest me building/downloading? At this point I'm down to literally anything as long as I can get one single guy to be my go-to offensive outlet. Yes, I know that a buff guy tight marking him would make me literally lose every game, I'm aware of that stuff, but like I said, that's not something I particularly care about - not now, at least.

Thank you for your constructive feedback, looking forward to your solutions

[Experienced Defender]

15 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

I've copied the tactic @Experienced Defendersuggested and removed pretty much every single TI or PI (except focus play through the middle, play out of defence and low crosses)

Can we see a screenshot of that tactic?

Because only one single element of a tactic can be enough to make a huge difference between success and failure.

[Experienced Defender]

18 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

18 Intuition

Intuition? There is no such attribute in FM.

[Experienced Defender]

21 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

Why does a game with such unbelievable depth as FM not have a TI/PI such as "Pass to player X more often"?

Because such instruction would make no sense at all in a serious game like FM (actually, the only real and realistic football simulation game ever made). Instead, there are playmaker roles that virtually mean the same. 

[stopazricky]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Intuition? There is no such attribute in FM.

Anticipation, sorry I'm from Italy and I was translating on the fly lol

 

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Because such instruction would make no sense at all in a serious game like FM (actually, the only real and realistic football simulation game ever made). Instead, there are playmaker roles that virtually mean the same. 

If that would make no sense, then why do playmaker roles do the same? It's contradictory. 

 

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Because only one single element of a tactic can be enough to make a huge difference between success and failure.

If so, then how could there be any room for adjustment throughout a game? If switiching a duty or two can destroy a tactic, then aren't we supposed to just never touch the tactics screen during a match?
Anyway, I get it, there may still be something deeply wrong, so here's the screenshot:
https://imgur.com/a/G2U1FuM

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, stopazricky said:

If that would make no sense, then why do playmaker roles do the same?

Because playmakers are natural ball-magnets. As is the target man, although in a different way. 

 

1 hour ago, stopazricky said:

If so, then how could there be any room for adjustment throughout a game? If switiching a duty or two can destroy a tactic, then aren't we supposed to just never touch the tactics screen during a match?

It can both "destroy" and significantly improve a tactic, depending on how wisely you use the tactical creator. And I am not talking only about duties, but any element of a tactic. 

 

1 hour ago, stopazricky said:

Anyway, I get it, there may still be something deeply wrong, so here's the screenshot:
https://imgur.com/a/G2U1FuM

You may have reduced the number of in-possession instructions (which now really look good and make sense overall). But your out-of-possession TIs are still extremely aggressive and virtually unchanged. Therefore, your tactic is still far from what I suggested.

However, there is a much bigger problem here than your tactic. And it's this: 

2 hours ago, stopazricky said:

What I would expect is my entire offensive play to be based around getting the ball to that one dude's feet and react from him doing stuff. I don't particularly care if that's a good idea or not, it's just the way I want to see the tactics unfold, regardless of results. I was winning every game I was testing tactics in, I have 0 losses throughout all competitions in February, even with the horrible tactics I was using earlier, that's just not the point. 
I expect the F9 to pick up the ball pretty much every time my team successfully transitions into the attacking phase. My players' AI should work like this: "Is the dude free and reasonably within reach? If yes, I'll pass the ball to him". 

 

2 hours ago, stopazricky said:

At this point I'm down to literally anything as long as I can get one single guy to be my go-to offensive outlet. Yes, I know that a buff guy tight marking him would make me literally lose every game, I'm aware of that stuff, but like I said, that's not something I particularly care about

If that's really your purpose of playing this beautiful game, then I am definitely a wrong person to ask for advice. Sorry.

Hopefully someone with a similar kind of "obsession" (but more success) will be able to offer you some help.

Good luck mate 

[stopazricky]

12 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

But your out-of-possession TIs are still extremely aggressive and virtually unchanged.

Ok, I'll definitely fix that.

 

13 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

If that's really your purpose of playing this beautiful game, then I am definitely a wrong person to ask for advice. Sorry.

Hopefully someone with a similar kind of "obsession" (but more success) will be able to offer you some help.

Let me explain my point a little further: there's a particular way of playing football that I want to replicate in-game. That way is actually far different from what I've expressed here in this thread. Of course, no true tactic would ever work by focusing that much on a single player. I am fully aware of that. The thing is: the main difference I was seeing between what was happening on the pitch and what I wanted to see happening on the pitch was the involvement of the F9 in the build-up phase. It was so bad, even after much experimentation, that I was - and still am - fully commited to overcompensate. Once I will actually have a tactic so overcentralized on my main player that I'll be losing because of that, I'll be looking to fix that issue, and results will be relevant to me again.

However, here's some more food for thought for you though: like I said, the horrendous tactic I originally played had me 7 months undefeated, with two draws in Serie A and every other game being won, best attack of the league, best defense of the league, 18/18 points in UCL group stage, and so on. So either we're talking PvP and have been all along (somehow), or the bad tactic was bad in a way that has nothing to do with its results. And I fully agree with that - A bad tactic is a bad tactic regardless of what results I can draw from it. 
But you never asked me how the save was going before trashing my tactic - and rightfully so! Because results don't matter to you either. So yeah, you are indeed the right person to help me build the tactic I'm looking for, because you're not trying to help me win more games. You couldn't care less and I couldn't care less either! How's that the much bigger issue than my tactic?

Now, if that was a way to say "I'll see myself out, I have contributed way too much to a single very weird thread and have better things to do" I very much respect that. But don't make it about in-game results, the thread never was

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, stopazricky said:

like I said, the horrendous tactic I originally played had me 7 months undefeated, with two draws in Serie A and every other game being won, best attack of the league, best defense of the league, 18/18 points in UCL group stage, and so on. So either we're talking PvP and have been all along (somehow), or the bad tactic was bad in a way that has nothing to do with its results. And I fully agree with that - A bad tactic is a bad tactic regardless of what results I can draw from it.

I don't know what do you mean by "bad tactic", especially when that tactic produced so good results? 

And what is "PvP"? 

2 hours ago, stopazricky said:

But you never asked me how the save was going before trashing my tactic - and rightfully so!

I logically assumed that you were struggling with your tactic in general - not only the F9 guy -  simply because you came to the forum to ask for help. If I had known that your tactic actually worked well, I would probably have not even got myself involved in the thread. 

 

2 hours ago, stopazricky said:

Because results don't matter to you either

Quite the opposite. Results do matter to me, much more than any individual player and his performance. 

 

2 hours ago, stopazricky said:

So yeah, you are indeed the right person to help me build the tactic I'm looking for, because you're not trying to help me win more games. You couldn't care less and I couldn't care less either! How's that the much bigger issue than my tactic?

You obviously misunderstood my words, but never mind. 

Anyway, I'll make one final attempt to help you with your F9 "superstar", but I really cannot guarantee that it will do what you are hoping for. So here it is:

F9

IFat                                Wsu

DLPsu    CMat

HB

WBsu   CDde  CDde   IWBsu

SKde

Mentality - Positive

In possession - PoD, shorter passing, low crosses & focus through the middle

In transition - counter-press

Out of possession - higher D-line & higher LOE (nothing else)

Player instructions: 

- F9 - roam from position

- CM on attack - move into channels

If that fails, I give up.

[stopazricky]

11 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Results do matter to me, much more than any individual player and his performance. 

Fine, but now I wonder: how long have you been playing the game? My guess is you're in the thousands of hours, at least. You've probably won trebles with former Championship sides, UCLs first season, and so on. Am I right?
Because if I am, and you're still playing the game, you're obviously in for something more than results. Maybe it's "results coming from a particular playstyle", or "results but only playing guys under 21", or stuff like that, but, if all you cared about was beating the AI, then you would have moved on from the game long ago, I believe.
I'm genuinely curious, so feel free to send a personal message if you don't want to reply here

 

11 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

If that fails, I give up.

I don't get the W(su), but I'll give it a try!

[Experienced Defender]

24 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

Fine, but now I wonder: how long have you been playing the game? My guess is you're in the thousands of hours, at least

FM in general or the last edition only? 

 

24 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

You've probably won trebles with former Championship sides, UCLs first season, and so on. Am I right?

No, that's not how I play this game. When I say that results matter to me, I do not refer to winning trophies, but achieving results that are either within or above expectations relative to the club I manage. For example, if my board expects/wants me to secure a top-half finish, then my goal is to do exactly that. 

Therefore, I look to play FM in a completely realistic manner, as if I managed a real-life club.  

[CaptCanuck]

On 03/04/2021 at 11:40, stopazricky said:

Anticipation, sorry I'm from Italy and I was translating on the fly lol

 

If that would make no sense, then why do playmaker roles do the same? It's contradictory. 

 

If so, then how could there be any room for adjustment throughout a game? If switiching a duty or two can destroy a tactic, then aren't we supposed to just never touch the tactics screen during a match?
Anyway, I get it, there may still be something deeply wrong, so here's the screenshot:
https://imgur.com/a/G2U1FuM

Apologies that I've not gone back through everything from the weekend (too much philosophical musings for Monday morning ;-) and if you are set on a 4123, but have you tried an SS(support striker) to provide another player that can make attacking runs and use that space that Pedri will vacate?

Assuming you're sound at the back as is - or maybe just for matches against 'lesser' teams - push Castrovilli (I assume he's a good option?) up the SS role and then move Luis into the CM, something like...

                F9
IFa          SS            IWs
     CMd/s        DLPs
 

Caveat, I'm just making quick suggestions as food for thought, but at it's simplest level an IF and SS could be a good pair, coming from two different compass points, to orbit around the F9 and score some goals. The SS would effectively be more immediately available than the CMa and more focused on that attack the box task.

[stopazricky]

21 hours ago, CaptCanuck said:

have you tried an SS(support striker) to provide another player that can make attacking runs and use that space that Pedri will vacate?

Hey, thanks for the suggestion! I didn't try it because the problem was Pedri not vacating that space to begin with, instead acting pretty much as an AF. 
As of now, I'm seeing positive results coming from playing strikerless with Pedri in AMC as Trequartista. He's not starting on the shoulder of the opposition's defenders and dropping back deep (like a real F9), but at least he's often receiving ball between the lines, which is what I've been wanting him to do all along. Since Trequartista is a playmaker role, his teammates tend to target him for passes more than other players, and that's solved 70% of the issue of him being too passive. He's definitely still not creative enough to decide UCL matches all on his own (I lost to a very strong Man Utd side in Quarter Finals), but that is inevitable and comes down to the quality of the player, not to the tactic.

I'll keep testing and I'll keep seeing what happens, Trequartista in ST position is next up on the list if I find the AMC one to get in the way of CM's

Edited April 6, 2021 by stopazricky

[Flußkrebs]

46 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

Hey, thanks for the suggestion! I didn't try it because the problem was Pedri not vacating that space to begin with, instead acting pretty much as an AF. 
As of now, I'm seeing positive results coming from playing strikerless with Pedri in AMC as Trequartista. He's not starting on the shoulder of the opposition's defenders and dropping back deep (like a real F9), but at least he's often receiving ball between the lines, which is what I've been wanting him to do all along. Since Trequartista is a playmaker role, his teammates tend to target him for passes more than other players, and that's solved 70% of the issue of him being too passive. He's definitely still not creative enough to decide UCL matches all on his own (I lost to a very strong Man Utd side in Quarter Finals), but that is inevitable and comes down to the quality of the player, not to the tactic.

I'll keep testing and I'll keep seeing what happens, Trequartista in ST position is next up on the list if I find the AMC one to get in the way of CM's

If you're playing strikerless then I've been using the following front 3 in a strikerless 343 system (although i think it could translate well to a 4atb if the rest of the roles are suitable):

SSa-AMa-SSa

And it provides some absolutely beautiful goals. The type of player you play in each role massively impacts things though (i.e. traits like dropping deep, killer balls). The central AM will do everything from pressing as a false 9 at the tip of the attack off the ball, to dropping deep to collect, play a 1-2 and then finish the move off after the SS plays the pass. However, I have found that because the central no 10 space tends to be more congested they are less likely to be the player making the assist (this mimics real life somewhat) and the left and right SS will usually have more room in the channel or moving wide to receive the ball and play the pass. But it might be something to try. 

[stopazricky]

Hey guys, I hope you don't mind me resurrecting an old thread, I swear it's for a good cause: helping anyone coming across this thread in the future.
Because I found a solution to all of the problems I was discussing in this thread, not a perfect one but it gets the job done.

My problem was my F9 behaving too similarly to an Advanced Forward. I found out (thanks to a direct message by the way, thank you so much @Bermoot) that Trequartistas behave a lot like real life F9s in this match engine, for a few reasons:
-They vacate their starting position a lot, not only consistently dropping between the lines but also supporting their teammates on the flanks.
-Since Trequartistas are a playmaker role, they receive ball more often. Just like an F9, their primary concern is taking part in the build-up phase.

I tested Trequartista in AMC, and then in Striker position where he seems to be doing even better. 

[Bermoot]

Hi, thanks for your feedback. I'm glad I was able to help, although not completely. I have been observing the problem of ignoring my attacker for a very long time, so I decided to hang a trequartista-shaped ball magnet on him. So far, this is the only thing that I managed to come up with) I apologize to everyone reading this for my English, I'm from Russia =)