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How did my CBs get good ratings for allowing a mug player to get a hat trick?


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So many questions from this game but most of all....how did my world class defence which rarely concedes allow a striker with 1 goal in 8 games, very average attributes and poor movement to score a hat trick.

how did the CBs then get good ratings?

hiw can they shut out city and Liverpool but fall to pieces against Azmoun who???

it’s because the game decides it’s time for a freak result so a freak result shall happen. It’s not the tactics for anyone who wants to argue that, my team copes very well against far superior 4231. I deliberately wasn’t too attacking and chose balanced tactics.

Funnily enough one of our ex players did the warning media comment about Azmoun before the match.....which suggests the game had decided it will be his day. I did check him out, he’s average at best. Form terrible. And yet, and yet he rips de ligt and skrinnar apart....who both get good ratings!!

a lot of words for one match but it reflects deep frustration with the way SI get away with this. The match you can’t influence as it’s been decreed you will lose.

Oh and I don’t mind freak results btw, they happen just as much IRL. it’s the manner in which they happen. The total implausibility of this striker suddenly becoming mo salah. Worst of all my CBs totally forgetting how to defend.

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28 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

You'd have to look at their stats to look for clues.

What stats do you advise I should be looking for in particular Hunter? I’d love to find a solution to,these anomalies.

like I say I don’t mind a surprise result. But the pattern is FM is too regular, programmed and predictable. Feels like nothing can be done. My teams have high leadership averages and we still only lose to the small teams. 

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5 minutes ago, steam just is said:

What stats do you advise I should be looking for in particular Hunter? I’d love to find a solution to,these anomalies.

like I say I don’t mind a surprise result. But the pattern is FM is too regular, programmed and predictable. Feels like nothing can be done. My teams have high leadership averages and we still only lose to the small teams. 

Have a look at it in general. It'd be all the stats you'd expect. Number of tackles and headers. Tackle and aerial duel win %. Passes and pass %. Mistakes made. etc

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Arguably, "Mug player" says it all, probably. There are no "mug" players, they are competing at the same level as your team.

On a more serious note, as always, had you provided the save, somebody would have won this "unwinnable" match immediately. If anything, on FM you can have more control over match results than a real manager has (in parts as the game isn't quite as fluid as real football, and there are, of course, patterns, as the ME is a piece of code -- same for the opposing AI managers' decisions). 

Nonetheless, my favorite "freak result" was losing to 3 DFK's on ca. FM 2015ish a couple years back. Can't do much about that, on the occasion, **** may happen. :D 

Borussia Neunkirchen 2-3 SG Betzdorf - Match Highlights - YouTube

Edited by Svenc
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2 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The game doesn't decide anything. And to be honest as long as you keep believing the game is going to decide you lose, there's little point in anyone trying offer advice

Lol. Sympathetic as ever TMS. I took the advice @HUNT3R gave seriously and re-assessed the stats. 

the game is full of artificial constructs. Obviously. It was confirmed by a moderator that the opposition suddenly changes their performance against you after half a season based on your first half results. As if game 19 is an official refresh point IRL. Nothing you can do but adapt. 

don’t pretend to me that the game hasn’t got a mechanism for weak teams raising their game against you. That’s fine. It happens IRL. But when you’ve constructed a brilliant defensive team, with very high leadership and experience, body language  complacency is low why does it keep happening? Because the game needs it to. Otherwise we’d all end up with 100% records. The opposition aren’t doing anything clever, the AI isn’t capable. It’s a game mechanic to ensure perfection is almost impossible. No complaints about that but just admit it.

I think people like me just have to come to terms with it. I enjoy the game but I call out it’s faults.
 

Edited by steam just is
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The indeed limited AI is still far more dynamic / reactive to match events than the average FM user from online/forum experience, which is why SI sadly seem very careful when improving it (or listening to criticism regarding that AI from the more tactically astute). The story is always the same, if the AI is capable of doing something (like challenging superior sides, scoring off fewer shots, staging comebacks, holding leads, which it is all very well capable of), you can actually do that better. 

However, the game is sort of stuck in an AI rut, in that every time the AI can do something the average user can't, it must be "predetermined", and virtually nothing you can do about it. Additionally, as most players are fairly successful, there's the perception the AI must be this limited that the game can only provide prolonged challenges if there was a sort of hard coded balancing in that you are destined to lose matches in the most comical ways, etc. I think this is kind of dangerous and bad for possible future developments.

There was no suggestion of "cheating" mind; but this thread at some point might come close to entering familiar territory of kinds in particular once the right type of user reads it. A classic (mind, not actually written by me!). :D 

(Conspiracy?) theory about this game - Football Manager General Discussion - Sports Interactive Community (sigames.com)

Point drops against a run of play and shock performances are meant to be a part of the game. There might be even bugs involved in the above match aside of the suspicious CB ratings (which is impossible to tell from stats, so a match maybe worth reporting as pkm). However, if "it" keeps happening at a high frequency,  there's usually still something you can do about it. That aside, any mechanism such as complacency off-days as well as reputation shifts and thus opposition tactical approaches  etc. affecting the human manager is also affecting the AI, so there's no edge for the AI to be had there, unless it likewise was better at managing those (indeed, AI top teams not seldom drop plenty enough points throughout a season).

 

 

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1 hour ago, steam just is said:

Lol. Sympathetic as ever TMS. I took the advice @HUNT3R gave seriously and re-assessed the stats. 

the game is full of artificial constructs. Obviously. It was confirmed by a moderator that the opposition suddenly changes their performance against you after half a season based on your first half results. As if game 19 is an official refresh point IRL. Nothing you can do but adapt. 

don’t pretend to me that the game hasn’t got a mechanism for weak teams raising their game against you. That’s fine. It happens IRL. But when you’ve constructed a brilliant defensive team, with very high leadership and experience, body language  complacency is low why does it keep happening? Because the game needs it to. Otherwise we’d all end up with 100% records. The opposition aren’t doing anything clever, the AI isn’t capable. It’s a game mechanic to ensure perfection is almost impossible. No complaints about that but just admit it.

I think people like me just have to come to terms with it. I enjoy the game but I call out it’s faults.
 

Me thinking the game is too easy when the team I managed has only conceded 10 goals in a 38 game premier league season. There is no mechanism in the game that punishes you when your team is too good. Freak results do happen from time to time. Just ask mourinho how spurs lost a seemingly unlosable game against Dinamo Zagreb which their striker turned into prime ronaldo and then comfortably beat Aston villa the next game.

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2 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

Me thinking the game is too easy when the team I managed has only conceded 10 goals in a 38 game premier league season. There is no mechanism in the game that punishes you when your team is too good. Freak results do happen from time to time. Just ask mourinho how spurs lost a seemingly unlosable game against Dinamo Zagreb which their striker turned into prime ronaldo and then comfortably beat Aston villa the next game.

I get that and do refer to it in my post. Shock results don’t disappoint me, it’s the manner. The discrepancy above refers to my CBs and CMs getting good ratings despite a bloody awful performance. That suggests a problem to me. Great CBs playing well at the same Conceding a hat trick to a very average striker. It feels to me that there was very little I could do. 
spurs defeat against Zagreb was all about squad morale and attitude. Both of which are supposedly excellent in my squad in the save.

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1 hour ago, steam just is said:

I get that and do refer to it in my post. Shock results don’t disappoint me, it’s the manner. The discrepancy above refers to my CBs and CMs getting good ratings despite a bloody awful performance. That suggests a problem to me. Great CBs playing well at the same Conceding a hat trick to a very average striker. It feels to me that there was very little I could do. 
spurs defeat against Zagreb was all about squad morale and attitude. Both of which are supposedly excellent in my squad in the save.

There is no mechanism in the game that punishes you for being too good. Simple as that. If you can't look beyond that, then giving you advice seems a waste. Much like when you couldn't get Harry Kane to score for 18 games. 

But if you're actually open to avoiding the same trends then happy to look at your tactic and some PKMS

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1 hour ago, steam just is said:

I get that and do refer to it in my post. Shock results don’t disappoint me, it’s the manner. The discrepancy above refers to my CBs and CMs getting good ratings despite a bloody awful performance. That suggests a problem to me. Great CBs playing well at the same Conceding a hat trick to a very average striker. It feels to me that there was very little I could do. 
spurs defeat against Zagreb was all about squad morale and attitude. Both of which are supposedly excellent in my squad in the save.

I'd love to watch the PKM of this. Forget ratings, are you watching your players? If someone scores against me the first thing I look at is the marking, then his supply. Was it avoidable, or not? Is it even worth worrying about in the context of things? Is my team actually doing the things I want them to? 

If someone scored at hat trick against me (haven't had it yet tbh) I'd see that a failing in what I went out to do, regardless of rating, so I'd be looking at how they got a platform to even do that. 

 

5 hours ago, steam just is said:

Lol. Sympathetic as ever TMS. I took the advice @HUNT3R gave seriously and re-assessed the stats. 

the game is full of artificial constructs. Obviously. It was confirmed by a moderator that the opposition suddenly changes their performance against you after half a season based on your first half results. As if game 19 is an official refresh point IRL. Nothing you can do but adapt. 

don’t pretend to me that the game hasn’t got a mechanism for weak teams raising their game against you. That’s fine. It happens IRL. But when you’ve constructed a brilliant defensive team, with very high leadership and experience, body language  complacency is low why does it keep happening? Because the game needs it to. Otherwise we’d all end up with 100% records. The opposition aren’t doing anything clever, the AI isn’t capable. It’s a game mechanic to ensure perfection is almost impossible. No complaints about that but just admit it.

I think people like me just have to come to terms with it. I enjoy the game but I call out it’s faults.
 

You've actually taken that out of context, it might defensively or offensively compared to your rep. It's neither exactly 19 games, nor a complete refresh. 

And let's be honest, you might have built a good team, but you haven't utilised it to his fullest. I don't claim to be amazing, yet last save went unbeaten in a league campaign, lowest goals conceded, most scored, best Xg for and against.

Same tactical identity (United 2006-2009 replication) throughout. If i can do it you can. If others can do it you can. I'll put in all the time in the world for people who put the effort in but I'm not going to sugarcoat it for someone whose argument is basically the game won't let me win. 

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5 hours ago, steam just is said:

I took the advice @HUNT3R gave seriously and re-assessed the stats. 

And what did you find?

5 hours ago, steam just is said:

It was confirmed by a moderator that the opposition suddenly changes their performance against you after half a season based on your first half results.

What a moderator would say (and probably did) was that teams re-assess all other teams. They do it throughout the season, but it's a much bigger re-assessment at season start and the mid-point. They assess all teams, not just human. They adapt their approaches accordingly. Whether the approaches are successful, is another question, so their 'performance' could be affected. Your 'performance' could be affected. There's certainly nothing artificial going on here.

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25 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

And what did you find?

What a moderator would say (and probably did) was that teams re-assess all other teams. They do it throughout the season, but it's a much bigger re-assessment at season start and the mid-point. They assess all teams, not just human. They adapt their approaches accordingly. Whether the approaches are successful, is another question, so their 'performance' could be affected. Your 'performance' could be affected. There's certainly nothing artificial going on here.

I did t find anything obvious but....two goals were conceded by balls round the back of De Ligt who I’d played as LCB and having reviewed I see he prefers RCB. It’s something to look at. Cheers!

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2 minutes ago, steam just is said:

 De Ligt who I’d played as LCB and having reviewed I see he prefers RCB. 

My advice was to look at the stats, so this is unrelated? "Side preference" makes no difference in the ME, so it's not important here.

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1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I'd love to watch the PKM of this. Forget ratings, are you watching your players? If someone scores against me the first thing I look at is the marking, then his supply. Was it avoidable, or not? Is it even worth worrying about in the context of things? Is my team actually doing the things I want them to? 

If someone scored at hat trick against me (haven't had it yet tbh) I'd see that a failing in what I went out to do, regardless of rating, so I'd be looking at how they got a platform to even do that. 

 

You've actually taken that out of context, it might defensively or offensively compared to your rep. It's neither exactly 19 games, nor a complete refresh. 

And let's be honest, you might have built a good team, but you haven't utilised it to his fullest. I don't claim to be amazing, yet last save went unbeaten in a league campaign, lowest goals conceded, most scored, best Xg for and against.

Same tactical identity (United 2006-2009 replication) throughout. If i can do it you can. If others can do it you can. I'll put in all the time in the world for people who put the effort in but I'm not going to sugarcoat it for someone whose argument is basically the game won't let me win. 

Haha. That’s not my argument. I don’t want the game to let me win. when I first buy the game I hate it if I win the league in my first season. I want a challenge TMS. but game should challenge with reasons and obstacles to be overcome...... not the ubiquitous ‘they’ve proved they are no pushovers’. You ,it’s find that monotonous. Even you TMS!

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3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

My advice was to look at the stats, so this is unrelated? "Side preference" makes no difference in the ME, so it's not important here.

I did look at the stats. Nothing stood out. So what does side preference make a difference to?

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Just now, steam just is said:

. So what does side preference make a difference to?

It helps AI team selection to be more realistic.

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2 minutes ago, steam just is said:

Haha. That’s not my argument. I don’t want the game to let me win. when I first buy the game I hate it if I win the league in my first season. I want a challenge TMS. but game should challenge with reasons and obstacles to be overcome...... not the ubiquitous ‘they’ve proved they are no pushovers’. You ,it’s find that monotonous. Even you TMS!

I don't, don't tend to find any issues against cannon fodder teams tbh. If anything I'd like them to be more dynamic in what they do. 

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I'd love to see the kind of reactions if someone got the game that ruined my unbeaten season a couple versions ago. Opponents created nothing, got 2 penalties, I knocked myself back to a 2-2, only for them to get a third penalty. Best part? All three were wrong calls and the ref afterwards had a rating of 1.4 or something. :lol:

Anyway, looking at the stats, the opposition has a pretty low xG (and so do you tbh), so the 4-3 is rather surprising. Considering that your defenders didn't give away that big chances, is it that surprising that they still have decent ratings? If anything I'd put a lot more blame on the goalie for letting in multiple relatively easy chances and looking at Onana's 6.6 it suggests that while he didn't make a major mistake, he also didn't do anything to actually contribute to the match. On top of that, both of your FBs also have relatively poor ratings, so that's another area to look at. I don't know how your team is set up overall, but defending is more than just what your 2 central defenders do, so you can easily concede goals without them being to blame at all.

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1 hour ago, steam just is said:

I did t find anything obvious

So to get back to the point, there was or was not an issue with the ratings? You have to remember, you have all the information. We have none. We can only go on what you're giving us.

I would assume that if your defenders received good ratings but an opposition striker still scored a hattrick, you have bigger issues (at least in that match) than the 2 defenders. There are 9 others players out there who could be potentially responsible and then there's also the setups for the match.

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5 minutes ago, Freakiie said:

I'd love to see the kind of reactions if someone got the game that ruined my unbeaten season a couple versions ago. Opponents created nothing, got 2 penalties, I knocked myself back to a 2-2, only for them to get a third penalty. Best part? All three were wrong calls and the ref afterwards had a rating of 1.4 or something. :lol:

Anyway, looking at the stats, the opposition has a pretty low xG (and so do you tbh), so the 4-3 is rather surprising. Considering that your defenders didn't give away that big chances, is it that surprising that they still have decent ratings? If anything I'd put a lot more blame on the goalie for letting in multiple relatively easy chances and looking at Onana's 6.6 it suggests that while he didn't make a major mistake, he also didn't do anything to actually contribute to the match. On top of that, both of your FBs also have relatively poor ratings, so that's another area to look at. I don't know how your team is set up overall, but defending is more than just what your 2 central defenders do, so you can easily concede goals without them being to blame at 

8 minutes ago, Freakiie said:

I'd love to see the kind of reactions if someone got the game that ruined my unbeaten season a couple versions ago. Opponents created nothing, got 2 penalties, I knocked myself back to a 2-2, only for them to get a third penalty. Best part? All three were wrong calls and the ref afterwards had a rating of 1.4 or something. :lol:

Anyway, looking at the stats, the opposition has a pretty low xG (and so do you tbh), so the 4-3 is rather surprising. Considering that your defenders didn't give away that big chances, is it that surprising that they still have decent ratings? If anything I'd put a lot more blame on the goalie for letting in multiple relatively easy chances and looking at Onana's 6.6 it suggests that while he didn't make a major mistake, he also didn't do anything to actually contribute to the match. On top of that, both of your FBs also have relatively poor ratings, so that's another area to look at. I don't know how your team is set up overall, but defending is more than just what your 2 central defenders do, so you can easily concede goals without them being to blame at all.

I get the points. All valid. It may be Onana, who after winning the golden glove last season, seems to be conceding a lot. Three goals were through balls behind de ligt who was pretty culpable considering I pushed him into a cover duty after the first goal. But the rating absolves him. Can really blame the FBs for through balls. 

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12 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

So to get back to the point, there was or was not an issue with the ratings? You have to remember, you have all the information. We have none. We can only go on what you're giving us.

I would assume that if your defenders received good ratings but an opposition striker still scored a hattrick, you have bigger issues (at least in that match) than the 2 defenders. There are 9 others players out there who could be potentially responsible and then there's also the setups for the match.

I know you can’t see the full picture and I do appreciate you trying to help nonetheless. I’m taking your advice seriously.

my setup was relatively conservative. My defensive line was average. These tactics and players had shut out Liverpool and city. I was in a neutral mode as I know the game wanted to sting me.....local derby, poor opposition wanting to prove doubters wrong etc.

I don’t mind the ambiguity. I don’t mind the fact it happens. I’m not even that bothered by this result. 

I’m trying to call out a FM anomaly. The match that’s going to bite you on the bum. Your set up is conservative. Your team is full of leaders. Morale is high. Complacency is low. I picked a team which trained great that week......which concedes 4 goals! Despite strong CB performances. 
Without a shadow of a doubt a piece of code kicks in which supercharges the opposition (no the result isn’t predetermined) and they play at a supra natural level.

It happens a lot I’m afraid.

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25 minutes ago, steam just is said:

Without a shadow of a doubt a piece of code kicks in which supercharges the opposition (no the result isn’t predetermined) and they play at a supra natural level.

The code that had your Harry Kane not score, even though others' Kane did? 

The code that had you be rubbish with defensive tactics, while others weren't?

Or blaming the ME for a lack of 'decent' through balls or creativity when you admit others do?

You often mention 'the code' or something similar. Never with anything factual. It's been the same in this thread too. There comes a point where you have to realise it's you. For me, that was FM13 and I realised I was very limited, both in knowledge and capability as manager, so I did something about it. I spent time learning and time analysing matches, both real life and in FM. I'm very glad I did.

There's a lot that goes into deciding matches. Attributes, tactics, morale, tactical changes etc. If it's a one-off, there's not too much to go on, but if you can spot patterns/recurring issues - there's something clear to fix.  :thup:

 

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In my experience, the game doesn't really do a good job of consistently acknowledging when a defender has made a mistake.

I remember one game against Spurs, Dele Alli had lost the ball on a dribble attempt and I then watched helplessly as my midfielder calmly controlled the ball, dribbled towards his own goal and then lofted a perfect, head height ball to Harry Kane, who scored easily. I was wracking my brain trying to figure out what the hell happened when I noticed that the commentators were praising Alli for setting up the goal with no mention of a defensive error. This is the worst example I have seen, but it seems common for big errors to not be reflected in commentary or ratings, in fact, it seems like missed interceptions, fouls inside the box and own goals are the only errors that the consistently game picks up on. Of course, most goals conceded will be the result of more subtle mistakes and these are definitely not reflected in the ratings.

Sometimes I have noticed that defenders who have bad games can have higher ratings. Early in my save I had a center back who was good in the air and a good tackler but terrible playing out from the back. I quickly learned to distrust him and play him as little as possible, especially in the big games, but sometimes injuries or suspensions left me with little choice. Even though he was a complete liability, he always had good ratings. Eventually I figured out that he was essentially giving himself more work to do. He would receive the ball and immediately knock it right to an opposing player in a central area and would then save the day with a last ditch tackle, interception or clearance. He was basically damning me with one hand and saving me with the other except his errors always resulted in at least one goal. His "heroics" always earned him high ratings and sometimes, irritatingly enough, praise from journalists (I HATED getting leading questions about how amazing he was) .

I guess the TL;DR is that ratings should always be taken with a large grain of salt.

 

 

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5 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

The code that had your Harry Kane not score, even though others' Kane did? 

The code that had you be rubbish with defensive tactics, while others weren't?

Or blaming the ME for a lack of 'decent' through balls or creativity when you admit others do?

You often mention 'the code' or something similar. Never with anything factual. It's been the same in this thread too. There comes a point where you have to realise it's you. For me, that was FM13 and I realised I was very limited, both in knowledge and capability as manager, so I did something about it. I spent time learning and time analysing matches, both real life and in FM. I'm very glad 

There's a lot that goes into deciding matches. Attributes, tactics, morale, tactical changes etc. If it's a one-off, there's not too much to go on, but if you can spot patterns/recurring issues - there's something clear to fix.  :thup:

 

So your point is to showcase how routinely I’m irked by the ME. I don’t think this is what mods should be doing tbh. Yes the game does wind me up because yes there are anomalies and yes I’ve bought every version for years so I’ve got a right to convey my opinions. 

for the record ........I play Kane as a DLF and here are his stats under my watch. Cue knowing laughs between some of the mods and users. My team are always in the top 6. Always score plenty of goals. The most outstanding CF of his generation has barely hit double figures in 5 years. He missed the first 3 pens under my management in a row. He’s still pen taker. The game goes down inexplicable rabbit holes. Last year a 17 y o Liverpool keeper was the top scorer in the league in someone’s save. Its imperfect which is fine but I want to vent. You guys always end up getting really Allardyce (very defensive). 
 

IMO the graphics and ME in particular took a serious hit after 17. The problems therein still manifest themselves as strange moments, results and stats. Or do you think the game has only moved inexorably forward the last 5 years??

D74C33B2-BB32-4156-B962-6FC3EB82B4E7.png

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Going to close this now as it's not constructive as OP isn't interested in listening to anyone. Please don't create more of these this threads if you're not going to take on board any advice at all. This forum isn't for you to vent and then take digs at people trying to help you

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