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The many ambiguities of FM. intentionally done?


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Just thinking about how FM skilfully keeps its players in the dark about quite a few things.I think it’s intentional on the part of SI. I play FMT on iPad but it’s relevant across the whole stable of products.

1. training. I bought Camavinga from Rennes as a complete midfielder aged 21. Sure I’m not alone! Training him as a RPM, my favourite position being a Modric fan. Within Weeks his attributes are dropping like a stone and he’s gone from a 4.5 to 3 star midfielder. No explanation. No obvious reason. No obvious solution (in FMT). Just FMs little secret.

2. tactics. One of my least favourite players to play against is Saisa Milokenvic-Savic. He’s a brilliant Box to box. So do I tightly mark him? But he’s not the most creative so that’s probably an unnecessary distraction in areas away from my goal. If I don’t mark him tightly does that mean he gets more space for headers in the box which he invariably scores. Again v little official advice from SI. I think it’s a flaw in the tactics system, which has gone unimproved for way too long. Same goes for pressing. 

3. mystery results. They’ve proved they’re no pushovers!!! Yes this does happen in real life but great teams have a way of overcoming it. It seems in built that SI doesn’t  want a work around on these results,

4. Match stats. Are they really that accurate???

5. attributes. Plenty of healthy discussion about these on forum but what are they as defined by SI. Please tell me.

I don’t want to be spoonfed. But I want to know what the game parameters are so I can manipulate them from a position of knowledge.

I think SI keep these deliberately ambiguous. I know there are tactic forums etc but I don’t want to copy others. I want the game  to be clear and draw my own conclusions. 

Edited by steam just is
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Personally I like ambiguity. In fact I’ve re-skinned the game to add further vagueness.

Football is complicated. Unless you have more money than god, then it becomes easier, but not always.

Perhaps SI could implement the vagueness of football in a different way, but personally I feel the unknown, luck, is handled pretty well. It is definitely deliberate by SI, because that’s football.

If anything, I want more of it. I feel absolutes are unrealistic when dealing with football. Nothing is 100%.

Too much of FM is absolute imo. More vagueness please.

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3 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

Personally I like ambiguity. In fact I’ve re-skinned the game to add further vagueness.

Football is complicated. Unless you have more money than god, then it becomes easier, but not always.

Perhaps SI could implement the vagueness of football in a different way, but personally I feel the unknown, luck, is handled pretty well. It is definitely deliberate by SI, because that’s football.

If anything, I want more of it. I feel absolutes are unrealistic when dealing with football. Nothing is 100%.

Too much of FM is absolute imo. More vagueness please.

I do kind of agree. And if the mysteries are revealed I guess it will make it a walk in the park. But I’d like more clarity with greater tactical and strategic challenges. It’s just a bit too much guesswork for me.

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55 minutes ago, steam just is said:

I know there are tactic forums etc but I don’t want to copy others.

There are two sections of the tactics forum - the downloads section where people have uploaded their tactic for others to use and the discussion section where people go to get help, advice and to better understand tactical settings.  Only the former is about copying others.

31 minutes ago, steam just is said:

But I’d like more clarity with greater tactical and strategic challenges

See above :).

59 minutes ago, steam just is said:

1. training. I bought Camavinga from Rennes as a complete midfielder aged 21. Sure I’m not alone! Training him as a RPM, my favourite position being a Modric fan. Within Weeks his attributes are dropping like a stone

Can you define "dropping like a stone"?  It would be extremely unusual if "within weeks" his attributes (how many?) have dropped by large amounts.  Have they really dropped to that degree or are you just seeing lots of little orange arrows pointing diagonally down?  If the latter then that's nothing to worry about - at Camavinga's age that's probably nothing more than attribute rebalancing which tbh I wish SI would hide as it often causes unnecessary concern.  It could also be the natural ebb and flow of development.  Players don't develop in a linear fashion and it's perfectly normal to see increases one month and decreases the next - the important part is to achieve long term growth, so an upward trend over a long period of time.

1 hour ago, steam just is said:

2. tactics. One of my least favourite players to play against is Saisa Milokenvic-Savic. He’s a brilliant Box to box. So do I tightly mark him? But he’s not the most creative so that’s probably an unnecessary distraction in areas away from my goal. If I don’t mark him tightly does that mean he gets more space for headers in the box which he invariably scores. Again v little official advice from SI. I think it’s a flaw in the tactics system, which has gone unimproved for way too long. Same goes for pressing. 

3. mystery results. They’ve proved they’re no pushovers!!! Yes this does happen in real life but great teams have a way of overcoming it. It seems in built that SI doesn’t  want a work around on these results,

Both questions for the tactics forum.  Start a thread, post a picture for your system(s) and describe the issue(s) you are seeing.  I'm sure someone will offer some advice :thup:.

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41 minutes ago, steam just is said:

Just thinking about how FM skilfully keeps its players in the dark about quite a few things.I think it’s intentional on the part of SI. I play FMT on iPad but it’s relevant across the whole stable of products.

1. training. I bought Camavinga from Rennes as a complete midfielder aged 21. Sure I’m not alone! Training him as a RPM, my favourite position being a Modric fan. Within Weeks his attributes are dropping like a stone and he’s gone from a 4.5 to 3 star midfielder. No explanation. No obvious reason. No obvious solution (in FMT). Just FMs little secret.

There is no way you will be able to notice a significant drop in attributes within weeks unless the player has a serious injury. All you see are down arrows that indicates a few things: 1) there is an adjustment period when a player moves from one club to another 2) the player is being trained in a different position which recalculates how his attributes are being weighted and hence attribute points are being rebalanced

Star ratings are always unreliable and there are multiple factors behind the drop in star ratings. These are questions that have been answered multiple times in the tactics forum and other FM forums all over the internet so there are no secrets to this issue here. Do not worry about the short term attributes drop. With the right training and good match performance, the attributes will start shifting to the right path itself.

48 minutes ago, steam just is said:

2. tactics. One of my least favourite players to play against is Saisa Milokenvic-Savic. He’s a brilliant Box to box. So do I tightly mark him? But he’s not the most creative so that’s probably an unnecessary distraction in areas away from my goal. If I don’t mark him tightly does that mean he gets more space for headers in the box which he invariably scores. Again v little official advice from SI. I think it’s a flaw in the tactics system, which has gone unimproved for way too long. Same goes for pressing. 

Classical overthinking when the best solution is just to not do anything. If you have a weakness that can be exploited by a run from deep, you either can choose to ignore it or look at structural weakness in the defence. Defence in football is pretty much straightforward once you have a good structure in place all the individual instructions are pretty meaningless. This is why a lot of good tactical experts in the FM community ignores OI completely

 

53 minutes ago, steam just is said:

3. mystery results. They’ve proved they’re no pushovers!!! Yes this does happen in real life but great teams have a way of overcoming it. It seems in built that SI doesn’t  want a work around on these results,

Not sure what you meant here

 

55 minutes ago, steam just is said:

4. Match stats. Are they really that accurate???

Match stats have been quite a problem in FM21. Prior versions have been quite accurate bar a few errors here and there. FM interpret some stats a bit different to real life like possession, crosses and shots.

 

1 hour ago, steam just is said:

5. attributes. Plenty of healthy discussion about these on forum but what are they as defined by SI. Please tell me.

These are something you can search for yourself in the Internet. FM has released definitions of every single attribute in the game.

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1 hour ago, steam just is said:

5. attributes. Plenty of healthy discussion about these on forum but what are they as defined by SI. Please tell me.

At the top of the page here there is a link to the online manual. There you can find the definitions:

I think you should have a read through the whole manual if you really don't like unknown factors, since pretty much everything is described in detail (but not to an exploitable degree) in there.

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Problem is that football itself is ambiguous. Offside rule is clear (you are this or that side of the line), but fouls in the penalty box are, and always will be, in the eye of the referee.

This means that FM is also inherently ambiguous, and it is made by a man/team that already has a view of the game. Examples like this are everywhere. What is "standard" passing? More urgent pressing? Positive mentality? Shorter passing (shorter than what, standard?). What does more risky passing mean for a goalkeeper? And what for a striker?

You could extend it to attributes as well. What does it mean to me if my right back has long throws 7? What is the baseline of 1 for every attribute?

In some places, it is intentionally vague, but it gets the message across, if you know to read between the lines ("It didn't look like a foul", "That looked very close to being offside", "Player surely took a dive there").

But the essence of the problem is that football is vague, and then we also have to interpret whatever the person making the game thinks "more direct" passing is. They are probably real, unsolvable problems, but not something that could stop anyone from enjoying the game.

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What you call ambiguity I call football. Mourinho is supposed to be finished, his players throwing in the towel, then last night they pull off a victory at the Villa.
If FM fairly replicates this kind of uncertainty, all power to it, I say.

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All valid replies. I guess when somebody says that ambiguity is good  and it replicates football there is a part of me which thinks isn’t that making it easy for SI? Liverpool Arsenal spurs are all great examples of ambiguity in 2021. But at least when klopp says mark a player he knows when and where. When he thinks of player attributes he knows if that’s a coaches assessment, his assessment or another metric. Etc etc

It’s a great game which frustrates me. As a spurs fan it can’t get much more real life than that ha! I just think tactics and attributes need some updating. The same for a long time now

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On the contrary, replicating ambiguity is hard. SI could easily programme players to be robotic, but football isn't robotic, its fluid and often intangible and that is much harder to programme

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