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I wondered if I could have some feedback on a few tactical ideas I have in mind for my Chelsea save.

I know any tactic I create will need a little bit of tweaking during pre-season, but I want to create a 'Primary' tactic as a starting blue print.

The Idea is I want to play a quick, short passing game with through balls to my quick forwards (Werner, Pulisic, CHO) when they are on. When possession is lost, I want my team to win the ball back quickly in order to exploit any space left on a counter. The Attackers to be quick and direct, the midfield to be aggressive and to retain the ball and the defence to play from the back with full backs creating width in attacks.

So my original instructions are as follows:

Formation: 4-2-3-1

Mentality: Positive

In Possession: Shorter Passing, Pass Into Space, Play Out of Defence, Run At Defence, Be More Expressive, Higher Tempo

In Transition: Distribute to CB, Distribute Quickly, Counter, Counter Press

Out of Possession: Higher Line of Defence, Much Higher Line of Engagement, Extremely Urgent, Prevent Short GK Distribution

Below is a screenshot of my original tactic. Before I start going through pre-season, I wondered if anyone had any feedback on the following:

1. Do the roles throughout the team seem balanced enough?

2. Do the Center Midfield roles seem ok or should I have Kovacic as a DLP (S)? 

3. I have Mount to backup Kovacic/Havertz in the Support role and Jorginho to backup Kante in the defensive role. If the LCM position is changed to a DLP, should I sell Jorginho (DLP (D) and buy a backup BWM (D) for Kante

4. Would Havertz be better here as an Advanced Playmaker or Attacking Midfielder? Also, is Attack or Support duty better here (bearing in mind the 2 roles behind him in the pivot)

 

Any answers to the above, or general feedback/tweaks, would be greatly appreciated.

 

image.png.c6480a96914c14984d66a9278e64f300.png

 

 

 

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In terms of roles and duties, the only role I would change in this setup is the BBM. Because you have an AP on support duty in AMC, whose space and area of influence could be reduced by a typical midfield runner such as the BBM behind him, especially when the wide forward on that side (AML/IW) is inside-oriented. Plus, with the BBM in MCL, defensive risk on the left flank is higher than it would be necessary, given the partnership of an attacking IW and attack-minded fullback role. 

The extreme aggressiveness of your out of possession TIs coupled with a relatively low level of compactness (DL/LOE combo) further compounds the risk.

On top of that, this aggressive approach - especially the much higher LOE - makes an instruction such as pass into space virtually ineffective (or at least far less effective than it's supposed to be). On top of that, pass into space is the type of instruction that should generally be used on a situational basis (i.e. as an occasional in-match tweak), rather than as a regular part of a tactic. Because even in a counter-attacking tactic/style, pass into space is not always effective, let alone in a tactic as aggressive as yours. Last but not least, not only that your tactic leaves no meaningful space for the instruction to be effective, but most of the opposition will look to further deprive you of that space by defending deep and tight (because you manage a top team).

Basically, insisting on passes into space when you are a top team playing (mostly) against defensive opposition usually means giving possession away cheaply and needlessly.

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2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In terms of roles and duties, the only role I would change in this setup is the BBM. Because you have an AP on support duty in AMC, whose space and area of influence could be reduced by a typical midfield runner such as the BBM behind him, especially when the wide forward on that side (AML/IW) is inside-oriented. Plus, with the BBM in MCL, defensive risk on the left flank is higher than it would be necessary, given the partnership of an attacking IW and attack-minded fullback role. 

So as mentioned in Question 2 above, should I select a DLP-S to go with the BWM-D in the pivot? If so, am I ok to sub the BWM-D (Kante) out for A DLP-D (Jorginho) or will those  2 Deep Lying Playmakers conflict?

 

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Basically, insisting on passes into space when you are a top team playing (mostly) against defensive opposition usually means giving possession away cheaply and needlessly.

I agree with your points here so will remove the Pass Into Space instruction.

I will also add  Work Ball Into Box  as my players tend to take ridiculous shots if that instruction isn't applied.

I may also remove Be More Expressive to keep things more controlled, what do you think?

If so, My instructions will look as below

Formation: 4-2-3-1

Mentality: Positive

In Possession: Shorter Passing, Play Out of Defence, Run At Defence, Work Ball Into Box, Higher Tempo

In Transition: Distribute to CB, Distribute Quickly, Counter, Counter Press

Out of Possession: Higher Line of Defence, Much Higher Line of Engagement, Extremely Urgent, Prevent Short GK Distribution

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This is how it essentially looks at the moment with the changes (ignore the suspension to Kovacic, I will swap him out for Mount).

The biggest query is who to sub/rotate Kante with. I only have players capable of playing DLP or B2B really - I have Havertz (used as AM), Kante, Kovacic, Jorginho, Mount and Gilmour as my CM options

 

image.png.508048da576d46601e295b301118bd0d.png

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3 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

So as mentioned in Question 2 above, should I select a DLP-S to go with the BWM-D in the pivot?

If you go with the DLP, that can slow down your attacking play more than you would like given the presence of another supporting playmaker (APsu) in front of him, which is obviously inconsistent with what you described as your preferred style of play: 

 

12 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

I want to play a quick, short passing game

So if you want to use the DLP, I would change the AP to standard AM. 

 

4 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

If so, am I ok to sub the BWM-D (Kante) out for A DLP-D (Jorginho) or will those  2 Deep Lying Playmakers conflict?

You mean 2 DLPs next to each other (MCL & MCR) - one on defend and the other on support? Or I misunderstood something? 

 

4 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

I will also add  Work Ball Into Box  as my players tend to take ridiculous shots if that instruction isn't applied.

I may also remove Be More Expressive to keep things more controlled, what do you think?

As with the Pass into space, both the WBiB and BME are essentially better used as a situational than regular instructions. On top of that, the Work ball into box is also an instruction that slows play down, which is opposite to what you want. 

Roles and duties are key. If you fail to set them right, instructions won't help. Instructions are effective only if they make sense in relation to the rest of a tactic, with roles and duties being the most important part of it. 

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15 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

If you go with the DLP, that can slow down your attacking play more than you would like given the presence of another supporting playmaker (APsu) in front of him, which is obviously inconsistent with what you described as your preferred style of play: 

You advised not to use a B2B midfielder next to the BWM as it is a roaming role. So I assume the only specialist  'holding role' really is the DLP and being as the BWM is defend duty, I should use support for the playmaker. 

With this in mind, I should try to get the best out of Havertz as an AMC on support (or should I use attack duty?)

 

20 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

You mean 2 DLPs next to each other (MCL & MCR) - one on defend and the other on support? Or I misunderstood something? 

That's right. If I use the the centre midfield (pivot) roles as DLPs (MCL) and BWMd (MCR), I am thinking which defensive roles could also be used in that MCR position. This is for when I need to sub out or rest Kante (see my tactics screenshot)

 

25 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

As with the Pass into space, both the WBiB and BME are essentially better used as a situational than regular instructions. On top of that, the Work ball into box is also an instruction that slows play down, which is opposite to what you want

I understand, however I keep seeing my players take so many impossible shots outside the area. Assistant advises to "Instruct players to work ball into box" regularly.

Also, I know I want to play quick football but that doesn't mean always too direct. Passing the ball shortly and quickly to retain then boom...through ball or similar

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Just now, SteveDavis85 said:

You advised not to use a B2B midfielder next to the BWM as it is a roaming role. 

I did not mention the BBM in the context of the BWM but in relation to the wide partnership on the left flank as well as the AP on support in front of him. 

9 minutes ago, SteveDavis85 said:

So I assume the only specialist  'holding role' really is the DLP and being as the BWM is defend duty, I should use support for the playmaker

I did not say that it must necessarily be a holding role. I said that it should not be a (typical) runner role (such as BBM or CM on support/attack). But there are also covering midfield roles (carrilero and BWM on support). 

However, in this particular case - and taking your specific players into account - I would prefer the combo of DLP on support in MCL and either BWM or CM on defend in MCR. Provided you switch the AP to either an AM or TQ (who is a playmaker role though, but of a different kind and can actually work fine in the style of play you want to implement). 

15 minutes ago, SteveDavis85 said:
44 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

You mean 2 DLPs next to each other (MCL & MCR) - one on defend and the other on support? Or I misunderstood something? 

That's right

But why would you want 2 playmakers - especially of the same type and in such a close vicinity - when you said you want to play a "quick" attacking style? That makes no sense to me. 

 

17 minutes ago, SteveDavis85 said:

f I use the the centre midfield (pivot) roles as DLPs (MCL) and BWMd (MCR), I am thinking which defensive roles could also be used in that MCR position. This is for when I need to sub out or rest Kante (see my tactics screenshot)

Well, I think the combo I mentioned earlier - DLPsu (MCL) and CMde (MCR) - answers your question actually (assuming neither Kovacic nor Jorginho can play the BWM role effectively). 

 

20 minutes ago, SteveDavis85 said:

I understand, however I keep seeing my players take so many impossible shots outside the area

Keep in mind that you play on a higher tempo under a high-risk team mentality (positive) + the counter instruction in transition. Plus overly aggressive defensive instructions on top of that. 

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On 04/03/2021 at 00:05, Experienced Defender said:

I did not mention the BBM in the context of the BWM but in relation to the wide partnership on the left flank as well as the AP on support in front of him

So would a B2B Alongside a BWM (D) in the pivot with an AP on Attack in front of them work? Or best to avoid a B2B in this formation all together?

 

On 04/03/2021 at 00:05, Experienced Defender said:

I did not say that it must necessarily be a holding role. I said that it should not be a (typical) runner role (such as BBM or CM on support/attack). But there are also covering midfield roles (carrilero and BWM on support). 

However, in this particular case - and taking your specific players into account - I would prefer the combo of DLP on support in MCL and either BWM or CM on defend in MCR. Provided you switch the AP to either an AM or TQ (who is a playmaker role though, but of a different kind and can actually work fine in the style of play you want to implement). 

So really, what you are saying, is to use a DLP(S) + BWM(D) or DLP(S) + CM (D) combination for the pivot with an AM(S) in front of them?

On 04/03/2021 at 00:05, Experienced Defender said:

But why would you want 2 playmakers - especially of the same type and in such a close vicinity - when you said you want to play a "quick" attacking style? That makes no sense to me. 

Quick, passing style is what I want to achieve. Retention is equally as important.

One of the midfield two pairing needs to be capable of bringing the ball forwards (carrying) whilst the other is to stay further back to cut passing lanes and retain the ball. Watching Chelsea against Liverpool last night, they had Jorginho on the right of the 2 CM's as a DLP(D) and he sat deep retaining the ball. Kante was on the left of the 2 CM's pushing ahead as a BWM(S).

In games before this, they have had Jorginho on the right of the 2 CM's as a DLP(D) again sitting deep and retaining the ball. Kovacic has been on the left of the 2 CM's collecting the ball from deep and driving forward, like a B2B but could also be a DLP(S). This is where the theory of 2 Deep Playmakers came from.

On 04/03/2021 at 00:05, Experienced Defender said:

Keep in mind that you play on a higher tempo under a high-risk team mentality (positive) + the counter instruction in transition. Plus overly aggressive defensive instructions on top of that. 

This is why I selected "Work Ball into Box". If I drop to Lower Tempo, the build up play is too slow and doesn't use the pace of the attackers very well. In addition, pressing with a High Line is best for the attackers I have as they have already shown that they can force mistakes from teams playing out from the back.

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1 hour ago, SteveDavis85 said:

One of the midfield two pairing needs to be capable of bringing the ball forwards (carrying) whilst the other is to stay further back to cut passing lanes and retain the ball. Watching Chelsea against Liverpool last night, they had Jorginho on the right of the 2 CM's as a DLP(D) and he sat deep retaining the ball. Kante was on the left of the 2 CM's pushing ahead as a BWM(S).

In games before this, they have had Jorginho on the right of the 2 CM's as a DLP(D) again sitting deep and retaining the ball. Kovacic has been on the left of the 2 CM's collecting the ball from deep and driving forward, like a B2B but could also be a DLP(S). This is where the theory of 2 Deep Playmakers came from.

Chelsea play a 5-2-2-1 (or a 3-4-2-1 depending how you see it) in real life though not a 4-2-3-1, apples & oranges  

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4 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

So would a B2B Alongside a BWM (D) in the pivot with an AP on Attack in front of them work?

When viewed in isolation, such a combo looks okay. But the rest of the setup/tactic matters as well. 

 

4 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

So really, what you are saying, is to use a DLP(S) + BWM(D) or DLP(S) + CM (D) combination for the pivot with an AM(S) in front of them?

Yes, if the AM on support is in front of them. DLPsu + CMde would be my personal preference (compared to BWM). 

 

4 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

Quick, passing style is what I want to achieve. Retention is equally as important

Retention does not require 2 playmakers next to each other. Plus, retention can be achieved even without a single playmaker role, for that matter. 

 

4 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

Watching Chelsea against Liverpool last night, they had Jorginho on the right of the 2 CM's as a DLP(D) and he sat deep retaining the ball. Kante was on the left of the 2 CM's pushing ahead as a BWM(S)

Do you want to replicate the Tuchel tactic at Chelsea or to create your own independent tactic, regardless of how they currently play in real life? Because if you want to replicate Tuchel, you also need to take into account that he plays with 3 at the back (rather than 4231). 

 

4 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

This is why I selected "Work Ball into Box"

Instructions are effective only if they make sense relative to the tactic as a whole. They do not act as a magic bullet and never work in isolation (just like anything else when it comes to tactics). 

I have a number of tactics in which my players tend to work the ball into the box even though I do not use that instruction at all. Because the interaction created by my setup of roles and duties is already conducive to such style of play. 

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If you are adamant on keeping the rest as is. Play with a Car at LCM. 

If you wanna do a DLP s and + want Werner to be your main main goal threat I suggest playing harvetz at f9 and werner at SS. Or pulisic at f9 and werner at IF (a). 

I also suggsst removing almost all of your instructions and qdding from there, there are too many instructions for it to be sensical.

 

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It really shouldn't be this complicated! I have watched many videos where people say "I want to Work Ball into Box and have my players Run at the defence" so they select it.

As for the roles, it is ridiculous to suggest an attacking midfielder linking the Midfield to the Striker cant play with a box to box midfielder. Starting positions suggest a Box to Box starts inside his own half. The "Space" her runs into can surely be made vacant by an attacking midfield if need be, its called positional play. "If I am making this un, you drop in behind me to cover the space".

As for an inverted winger, we starts as a winger and cuts inside onto the opposite foot as the side he is playing, usually his preferred foot the (the definition of inverted). I fail to see how much more basic this could be so regardless of whether I am playing a wing back or not, its all about starting positions and tactical instructions determine the passage of play. The wing back starts higher up...simple.

Finally, Working the ball into the box is simply telling your players to play it around and look for an opening. I am playing a positive mentality which does not mean Gegenpress or Gung Ho. This should be more than suitable instructions couple with "pass shorter" if I want ball retention.

All the answers on here have only left me more confused to be honest and frankly seem so so over complicated.

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1 hour ago, SteveDavis85 said:

All the answers on here have only left me more confused to be honest and frankly seem so so over complicated.

It's only advise, you asked for it, you don't have to listen to it. All that was picked up on was a few contradictions in the TIs. Carry on & play how you want  

Edited by Johnny Ace
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1 hour ago, SteveDavis85 said:

It really shouldn't be this complicated! I have watched many videos where people say "I want to Work Ball into Box and have my players Run at the defence" so they select it

It's not complicated. It's just logical. Unlike other wannabe-football simulations, FM is a serious game and does require a certain degree of knowledge and understanding about football and its tactical side (unless you come across some exploit plug'n'play tactic). 

 

1 hour ago, SteveDavis85 said:

As for the roles, it is ridiculous to suggest an attacking midfielder linking the Midfield to the Striker cant play with a box to box midfielder. Starting positions suggest a Box to Box starts inside his own half. The "Space" her runs into can surely be made vacant by an attacking midfield if need be, its called positional play. "If I am making this un, you drop in behind me to cover the space"

None has ever said that they "can't play". I was talking about role combinations that tend to work better (more smoothly) and/or offer better tactical balance than others. And I was talking specifically about BBM and AM on support duty.

You can play however you want and are absolutely free to ignore my (or anyone else's) suggestions. I just tried to provide some advice based on my tactical knowledge and experience, because you are the one who started this thread precisely because you were in need of tactical help. But now that you have suddenly become a tactical genius, there is obviously no need for me to bother trying to help you any further :onmehead:

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On 03/03/2021 at 18:55, Experienced Defender said:

On top of that, pass into space is the type of instruction that should generally be used on a situational basis (i.e. as an occasional in-match tweak)

hi, in what occasions you would like to use it and same question for Be more expressive instruction?

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4 hours ago, sinancihan said:

hi, in what occasions you would like to use it and same question for Be more expressive instruction?

If the opponent is leaving space behind the backline, pass into it 

If the opponent is parked in their area, don't use it (there's no advantageous space to pass into) 

When all of your players all top-level mental attributes, then use Be More Expressive 

 

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1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

If the opponent is leaving space behind the backline, pass into it 

If the opponent is parked in their area, don't use it (there's no advantageous space to pass into) 

When all of your players all top-level mental attributes, then use Be More Expressive 

@Johnny Ace thank you be more disciplined shows me my tactical instructions executed by players absolutely perfect, do you think BMD could be used in permanent basis. 

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4 minutes ago, sinancihan said:

@Johnny Ace thank you be more disciplined shows me my tactical instructions executed by players absolutely perfect, do you think BMD could be used in permanent basis. 

If you think it helps your team play better & gets results then yeah, sure :thup:

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