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Lower League 4231


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Hello Everyone,

i need a help in achievement of consistent results. I'm struggling to set up attack properly, because we're scoring lack of goals, and therefore very difficult to win at least 2 games in a row.

Here is my tactic:

20210301195359_1.thumb.jpg.3b78d3715e345fdb4ed344065fcc92a2.jpg

Probably you will tell me, that 4231 is a very difficult tactic to set up, and especially in lower leagues, but in my team i have only two decent CMs and a lot of Atck Miedfielders, so i just decided to use my good players so much as possible.

Also, i dont want to set up counter attacking and fast transition tactic, because for me it is very painful to see, how opponent attacks me and attacks and attacks. So i prefer possesion styled approach, that is also very difficult to set up in lower league, as far i know.

So, probably, it is totally fine to miss some points every second game. But i would like to hear, maybe there are obvious weak point in my tactic and with your help i can improve my scoring performance.

Thanks in advance.

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1 hour ago, woland said:

i dont want to set up counter attacking and fast transition tactic, because for me it is very painful to see, how opponent attacks me and attacks and attacks

Okay. But you don't have to play a slow possession (tiki-takish) style either. In case you want to play such a style no matter what, then you need to tweak your setup of roles and duties in order to make it more possession-oriented than it currently is. Which means that one of the wide forwards - preferably AML - should be switched to support duty, whereas either the striker or AMC should be given an attack duty. 

Likewise, you can have possession-minded instructions, but not to the point of overkill. Short passing + PoD should be quite enough under the balanced team mentality. No need for lower tempo, whereas width can be adjusted/tweaked on a situational basis. 

1 hour ago, woland said:

Probably you will tell me, that 4231 is a very difficult tactic to set up, and especially in lower leagues, but in my team i have only two decent CMs and a lot of Atck Miedfielders, so i just decided to use my good players so much as possible

Perhaps you could then consider 4411 as the "poor man's version" of the 4231. Although that formation is less suited to a possession style than 4231. 

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14 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay. But you don't have to play a slow possession (tiki-takish) style either. In case you want to play such a style no matter what, then you need to tweak your setup of roles and duties in order to make it more possession-oriented than it currently is. Which means that one of the wide forwards - preferably AML - should be switched to support duty, whereas either the striker or AMC should be given an attack duty. 

Likewise, you can have possession-minded instructions, but not to the point of overkill. Short passing + PoD should be quite enough under the balanced team mentality. No need for lower tempo, whereas width can be adjusted/tweaked on a situational basis. 

Thanks for your advice. Did i understand correct, that i have two options, first one is to fit roles to very possesion oriented Team Instructions and second one is remove slow tempo to avoid possession overkill?

Why switching attack duty from AML to AMC make it more possession oriented? does it matter in what position will be player with support roles?:)

14 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

No need for lower tempo, whereas width can be adjusted/tweaked on a situational basis. 

Actually i though that tempo should be also adjusted on situational basis, for example when opponent closing down a lot, increasing of tempo could help to release ball faster and therefore avoid losses. But by default, the weaker team is the slower should be tempo. What will be your advise in choosing of tempo? When to increase and when to decrease? The same question about width. I just noted, how my player losing the ball with long diagonal passes, and decided, that in standart width they placed to far from each other. What triggers are you using during match observation to make a decision about width?

Thanks in advance.

21 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

What ED said & maybe think of ditching the Wingbacks, in my book they don't suit possession football 

With "ditching" you mean switching to full backs? How in this case provide a width? I dont have a lot of desire to switch AML or AMR in winger role:)

Edited by woland
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2 minutes ago, woland said:

With "ditching" you mean switching to full backs?

Yes, maybe just the right back. They're both runners which put possession at risk, I think one's alright, just to mix it up a bit at the back 

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4 hours ago, woland said:

Thanks for your advice. Did i understand correct, that i have two options, first one is to fit roles to very possesion oriented Team Instructions and second one is remove slow tempo to avoid possession overkill?

No, these are not two different options. Both suggestions pertain to the possession style. But the one concerning roles/duties is more important. 

 

4 hours ago, woland said:

Why switching attack duty from AML to AMC make it more possession oriented?

Because possession football requires that players have as many safe and viable passing options as possible in all phases of attacking play, and especially in the build-up phase. 

 

4 hours ago, woland said:

does it matter in what position will be player with support roles?

Of course it matters. Everything matters. Just one wrong tactical decision can ruin the whole system. Just as a good one can sometimes turn a poor or average tactic into a really good one. 

 

4 hours ago, woland said:

Actually i though that tempo should be also adjusted on situational basis

Of course it can be adjusted on a situational basis. But that's exactly an additional reason to start on default.

Plus, keep in mind that tempo - like all instructions - is automatically affected by the team mentality and there is also a direct correlation between tempo and passing directness/length. 

4 hours ago, woland said:

The same question about width. I just noted, how my player losing the ball with long diagonal passes

That can be caused by a wrongly designed setup of roles and duties, so is not necessarily about the width setting. Another possible factor can be (poor) quality of your players, since you play in a lower league. 

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On 02/03/2021 at 16:39, Experienced Defender said:

Because possession football requires that players have as many safe and viable passing options as possible in all phases of attacking play, and especially in the build-up phase. 

Ok, i'll ask in another way:) Why support duty in AML position is more supportive than in AMC position?:) Or why it is better in general?

On 02/03/2021 at 16:39, Experienced Defender said:

Of course it can be adjusted on a situational basis. But that's exactly an additional reason to start on default.

Plus, keep in mind that tempo - like all instructions - is automatically affected by the team mentality and there is also a direct correlation between tempo and passing directness/length. 

That can be caused by a wrongly designed setup of roles and duties, so is not necessarily about the width setting. Another possible factor can be (poor) quality of your players, since you play in a lower league. 

Could you please provide some example, what consideration should be taken during a match before changing of Tempo and Attacking WIdth? When to increase and when to decrease?

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50 minutes ago, woland said:

Ok, i'll ask in another way:) Why support duty in AML position is more supportive than in AMC position?:) Or why it is better in general?

Could you please provide some example, what consideration should be taken during a match before changing of Tempo and Attacking WIdth? When to increase and when to decrease?

my two cents: The things that i change in match are tempo, width, and passing distance. Usually I keep them on the middle positions, or maybe passing or attacking width ticked one shorter. If I am struggling with possession (<50% and passing% less than the other team) I watch in full match mode and pay attention anytime a player, especially midfielder has the ball.

Do they have options available to pass? If they don't have any close safe options then maybe tick the passing distance down, as it may draw the other teammates closer in. If the passing distance is already lower, then maybe drop the tempo, if it looks like the other players are pushing too quickly forward, or the player with the ball is not letting them come show for a pass because they are too hasty to do something with it.

Sometimes, the opposite happens, and there are too many teammates close by, so they just pass back and forth between two or three, then boot it long, or get the ball stolen. This is trickier for me, but usually means the passing distance needs to increase, as they are all getting too close to the ball and playing too safe. Look for where the mid-long range options are for the player with the ball. They might be passing it around aimlessly because there isn't someone open up the field or across the field. This is where the attacking width might help, by bringing the far side players closer in. Short passing combined with wide attacking width is often really bad, as you have a few players far on the other side of the field offering nothing, and the others all grouped around the ball passing back and forth.

All of these considerations are also effected by roles/duties/mentality, so take it with a grain of salt. Also, I am only speaking for maintaining possession for the purpose of defense. whether this turns into good chances is another matter!

Another thing to consider is the dribbling setting. sometimes players, due to roles or traits, lose the ball a lot by dribbling rather than passing, so i look for how often a player chooses to dribble into trouble instead of the obvious passing opportunity and maybe turn on 'dribble less'.

 

Edited by kcinlober
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5 hours ago, woland said:

Why support duty in AML position is more supportive than in AMC position?:) Or why it is better in general?

Who said that it's "more supportive" or "better in general"? I really don't understand your question, sorry. 

 

5 hours ago, woland said:

Could you please provide some example, what consideration should be taken during a match before changing of Tempo and Attacking WIdth? When to increase and when to decrease?

You can increase tempo if you notice that you have too much sterile possession, for example. And decrease it - or shorten the passing length instead - if you are losing possession too easily. But again - none of these can work in isolation from the rest of the tactic.

Likewise, you can increase width if the middle is overly packed by opposition in order to encourage greater use of the flanks and try to stretch them out a bit. Narrow(er) width can be useful for keeping the ball more effectively by making your players closer together, especially if they are not technically capable to make passes over longer distances. But like anything else, both have their pros and cons. 

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En 3/3/2021 a las 13:45, woland dijo:

Ok, i'll ask in another way:) Why support duty in AML position is more supportive than in AMC position?:) Or why it is better in general?

It's not that the AML(s) would be more supportive  than an AMC(s) in all tactcs, but in your tactic, having the both the AMR and AML in attack leaves you without passing options on the flanks.

Against teams defending narrow, which are very common, your DLP will have the ball, the AMC will struggle to find open space to receive a pass, and the forwards will be pushing up, so they are not passing options either. To make it worse, both wide forwards will be fairly narrow as well due to the roles. An important thing to consider is that an AML on attack duty usually sits further forward than an AMC on attack duty, mainly because the positioning of the AMC is influenced by the center forward. Thus, an AML on support and an AMC on attack should give you more support overall than the other way around.

Having the AML and AMR on attack duty isn't necessarily bad, but in my experience that is better suited for more direct attacks.

 

Two more comments:

First, you team seems pretty weak in the midfielder positions, so perhaps your squad isn't really built to be a great tiki taka team. 

Second, a combination of CM(d) and DPL makes your midfield very static, which doesn't benefit tactics trying to score off patient ball movement to open up spaces. Personally, I would suggest DPL(d) and a CM(s) or a box to box. 

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