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Are we ever going to see Pep-like wingers FM?


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32 minutes ago, Belmont said:

I've always been a massive fan of Pep Guardiola. I've tried to adopt some of his philosophies in any tactical style I create. 

I've never been able to replicate how his wingers play for Manchester City. You see them holding the width as wide as possible, stretching the opposition. They make runs in behind and create space for the midfielders. 

In FM, wingers in the AMR/L rarely hold the width in the final third. They move very narrowly as they get into the opposition's half. 

Do you think they'll work on this in the next version of the game? Some of us are actually not fans of letting the fullbacks push up so high. 

IMG_20210218_092652.jpg

It is the same as inverted wingers in FM. Inverted wingers in FM is modeled based on this role. And I disagree that they rarely hold the width in the final third. Their movement is similar to what you will see in real life other than a few ME limitations.

Edited by zyfon5
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To get chalk on boots, attacking width needs to be maximal with focus down the flanks. Wingers need to hold position, run wise with ball, cross from byline...in effect this creates more a Fergie Kanchelskis than Pep Raheem. The latter‘s preference is for inverted runs deep in the final third with next to no crossing from the wingers/inside forwards. 

The inside forward is the closest one can get and falls far from the mark, the wider the attack, the more outside becomes the inside. And what’s an inside when it’s outside...
 

 

 

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The game treats wide players in the AM strata as forwards, so, naturally when the ball is in the final third, they attack the box. It's what forwards do. If you have them in the CM strata, it's more likely that they keep the width all the way. But, as always, it all depends on the role, duty, the player, and most importantly, the system around him.

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I watched City U21s against lower league senior opposition in the Checkatrade 2 years ago and was fascinated by it. They played a more extreme version of Pep's system as they weren't exactly playing to win, more for practice and experience. So the two wide players hugged the touchline and stayed as high and wide as possible, pushing the full backs back. The striker dropped deep and roamed (F9), the central midfielders made runs into the vacant space (Mezzalas), the 16 year old DM pushed forward, pressed and  looked to feed in the midfielders ahead of him (regista perhaps) and the full backs tucked into the vacant DM strata (IWB). It was like watching a perfect FM recreation except there isn't really a generic wide attacking midfielder role that doesn't cut inside towards the box.

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2 hours ago, Nyron said:

I watched City U21s against lower league senior opposition in the Checkatrade 2 years ago and was fascinated by it. They played a more extreme version of Pep's system as they weren't exactly playing to win, more for practice and experience. So the two wide players hugged the touchline and stayed as high and wide as possible, pushing the full backs back. The striker dropped deep and roamed (F9), the central midfielders made runs into the vacant space (Mezzalas), the 16 year old DM pushed forward, pressed and  looked to feed in the midfielders ahead of him (regista perhaps) and the full backs tucked into the vacant DM strata (IWB). It was like watching a perfect FM recreation except there isn't really a generic wide attacking midfielder role that doesn't cut inside towards the box.

The wide attacking midfielder in Pep system do cut into the box once the ball is progressed into the final third. They just stay wide during the initial phase of the build up. Just look at their touches in the box, their shots per 90, and their offensive statistics. Sterling's attacking numbers last season and this season is similar to a striker which indicates that he is very active at areas much closer to the goal. I am using inverted wingers in my current tactic and the position of the inverted winger in this position is exactly the same where my inverted wingers usually receive the ball initially. The only difference between the inverted wingers in real life and in FM is the inverted wingers in FM start cutting inside much earlier. While in real life they will hold the ball wait for other players to get into positions before they start their next move.

Edited by zyfon5
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Or use the Winger, support role with right footed player on the left and left footed player on the right - both with "cuts inside" trait. Behind them play IWB on either support or defend duty with Overlap TI on both sides. 

The overlap instruction will reduce the individual mentality of the wingers, they are hardcoded to stay wide and will still cut inside due to trait and footedness. Also, the IWBs will play a nice hybrid role between playing narrow next to the DM and going on the outside of the Wingers. 

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I like the ideas in here. 

@yonko have you felt traits with the full backs make a significant difference? In my testing having full backs with get forward whenever possible and " run with ball down left/right" makes them overlap a lot more than is desired and once they start this process the wide players move inside.

@themadsheep2001 I never considered hold position in my set up due to me trying to create scenarios where they leave their designated role and another player roaming could then occupy their role. But if this isn't easily possible in the match engine maybe this would be a better option. I found myself getting frustrated with lots of the roles, they either have stay wide or narrow pre selected or run wide with ball or cut inside with ball pre selected. I ended up with Roles that allowed me to select as much as possible.

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13 hours ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

I like the ideas in here. 

@yonko have you felt traits with the full backs make a significant difference? In my testing having full backs with get forward whenever possible and " run with ball down left/right" makes them overlap a lot more than is desired and once they start this process the wide players move inside.

@themadsheep2001 I never considered hold position in my set up due to me trying to create scenarios where they leave their designated role and another player roaming could then occupy their role. But if this isn't easily possible in the match engine maybe this would be a better option. I found myself getting frustrated with lots of the roles, they either have stay wide or narrow pre selected or run wide with ball or cut inside with ball pre selected. I ended up with Roles that allowed me to select as much as possible.

City wingers tend to be really disciplined in the first two thirds of build up off the ball, staying as wide as possible and being relative deep. Support roles will give you the relatively deep. Stay wider and hold position will give you that discipline, making sure that the half space can be flooded. But they will still narrow in the final on the ball getting you those touches in the box 

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2 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

City wingers tend to be really disciplined in the first two thirds of build up off the ball, staying as wide as possible and being relative deep. Support roles will give you the relatively deep. Stay wider and hold position will give you that discipline, making sure that the half space can be flooded. But they will still narrow in the final on the ball getting you those touches in the box 

Thanks for the reply. I will look at support duties again. I got away from them as I felt the WInger - S dribbled too much even when other options were there, and I wanted to make sure they were both a bigger goal threat when entering the final third. Good to know.

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18 hours ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

Thanks for the reply. I will look at support duties again. I got away from them as I felt the WInger - S dribbled too much even when other options were there, and I wanted to make sure they were both a bigger goal threat when entering the final third. Good to know.

Defensive Wingers on Support (in the Midfield line) with Stay Wider (cant recall if that's a preset or not) stay really wide, and contribute a lot in the final third and would fit the mould of being hard working when out of possession.

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1 hour ago, Lordluap said:

Defensive Wingers on Support (in the Midfield line) with Stay Wider (cant recall if that's a preset or not) stay really wide, and contribute a lot in the final third and would fit the mould of being hard working when out of possession.

I don't think a DW would work since they share all the same PI's as a normal W(plus 2 more) 

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  • 11 months later...

I've spent a lot of time trying to recreate what the OP describes, but yet to find a role that does what I require. I really hope that this can be addressed in future iterations, because the 'high and wide' wingers are becoming quite popular at the top of world football. Not only is Pep using this role, but both Spain (Olmo, Torres) and Italy (Chiesa) played this role in the Euros, and , in some sort of 4141 / 433.

The Winger (support) in the CM strata has ideal lateral posititioning, and will hold his width for the vast majority of the attack, only breaking from his position to overload the box when the team's in a crossing position on the other side. However, he doesn't get forward quick enough, largely staying in line with the midfielders, and giving little depth to the attack.

The Winger (attack) in CM as well as Winger (support / attacking) in AM are the opposite, they get into good positions early (high and wide) but constanty make diagonal runs infield to early, leaving our attack with no width.

Ironically enough, the WB (attack) in the DM strata plays exactly how I want it to when in possession. It always stays wide, and quite quickly joins the front line. Of course you won't be able to use it due to its defensive positioning.

The closest I've gotten (and you can probably find this by looking in my post history) is a 4141 with supporting wingers. The movements look great when we're already in the final third, but we typically have underwhelming performances, i notice that we're far too easy to press and struggle to get the ball forwards a lot of the time. The players stay flat in one line and the only forward ball available is to the striker, who is always outnumbered. It seems that all wide roles are coded with some sort of wide support from a fullback in mind. It doesn't quite feel smooth enough when you have a defensive fullback or an IWB.

I'm planning on putting in a feature request for this type of role in the near future.

Edited by Jack722
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For me on fm19, the wingers on support are pretty cool, with an opposite feet, they cut inside. With the two feet, it depends and offer variety, and with the left foot on left and for the other side, the opposite, they stretch the defence. Behind on MC position, two mezzala on attack... Pretty cool. 

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5 hours ago, cristhianlinhatti said:

This isn't what's hard to recreate - it's when your team is actually camped around the opposition box that ME limitations make every wide role in the AM strata come too narrow.

Getting width in the early buildup is fairly trivial. Keeping your wide players from coming inside the width of the penalty area when the ball is near the box is not.

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8 hours ago, Jack722 said:

I've spent a lot of time trying to recreate what the OP describes, but yet to find a role that does what I require. I really hope that this can be addressed in future iterations, because the 'high and wide' wingers are becoming quite popular at the top of world football. Not only is Pep using this role, but both Spain (Olmo, Torres) and Italy (Chiesa) played this role in the Euros, and , in some sort of 4141 / 433.

The Winger (support) in the CM strata has ideal lateral posititioning, and will hold his width for the vast majority of the attack, only breaking from his position to overload the box when the team's in a crossing position on the other side. However, he doesn't get forward quick enough, largely staying in line with the midfielders, and giving little depth to the attack.

The Winger (attack) in CM as well as Winger (support / attacking) in AM are the opposite, they get into good positions early (high and wide) but constanty make diagonal runs infield to early, leaving our attack with no width.

Ironically enough, the WB (attack) in the DM strata plays exactly how I want it to when in possession. It always stays wide, and quite quickly joins the front line. Of course you won't be able to use it due to its defensive positioning.

The closest I've gotten (and you can probably find this by looking in my post history) is a 4141 with supporting wingers. The movements look great when we're already in the final third, but we typically have underwhelming performances, i notice that we're far too easy to press and struggle to get the ball forwards a lot of the time. The players stay flat in one line and the only forward ball available is to the striker, who is always outnumbered. It seems that all wide roles are coded with some sort of wide support from a fullback in mind. It doesn't quite feel smooth enough when you have a defensive fullback or an IWB.

I'm planning on putting in a feature request for this type of role in the near future.

Have you tried winger/ inverted winger on support in the mr with get further forward pi? I feel like that’s the best option currently personally 

 

maybe have a look into support on ml/mr with get into opposition area ppm or arrives late in opposition box

Edited by _mxrky
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11 hours ago, _mxrky said:

Have you tried winger/ inverted winger on support in the mr with get further forward pi? I feel like that’s the best option currently personally 

 

maybe have a look into support on ml/mr with get into opposition area ppm or arrives late in opposition box

I tried it very briefly, I'm planning on trying it again when I have the chance, but I felt like it didn't get as high in buildup as the Winger attack

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46 minutes ago, Bradz FM said:

Its possible with AP(s), IW(s) and W9s). Ask them to hold position.

Also effective with a WM(s/a) in the midfield strata

Gonna have to disagree based on the experimentation I've done. Would love to be proven wrong though 

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2 hours ago, Jack722 said:

Gonna have to disagree based on the experimentation I've done. Would love to be proven wrong though 

What exactly are you wanting? City don't exactly hug the line on both sides when in the final third.

I've thrown this together but they are fairly wide here. Locatelli has just recieve the ball behind him, Bernardeschi and Chiesa are wide playerss

image.thumb.png.69c52855879423e3dccab346aedc9426.png

A similar real life example I had to go a second further in the move to show Mahrez in shot and also KdB receives the pass in front of him.. Not exactly wide.

image.png.61b0f1bb8d18f0292cd0fceec40492cb.png

 

Another in game example:

image.png.4d0dabbdb30cab0d717564d238d08f25.png

Versus real game

 

image.png.ec144526e393f4c171b02716ba24942e.png

I've quickly watched highlights of 4 Man City games and haven't seen a single example of both wide players hugging the line in final third. My sample size is tiny though

Edited by Bradz FM
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37 minutes ago, Bradz FM said:

I've quickly watched highlights of 4 Man City games and haven't seen a single example of both wide players hugging the line in final third. My sample size is tiny though

To clarify, I don't think anyone is asking for both wide players to hug the touchline simultaneously when the ball is in the attacking third. The far-side winger should obviously be coming infield and potentially making a run at the back post. Anything else would be nonsense.

Your second picture is a good example of what things should look like, although if my gut is correct Chiesa probably received the ball somewhere within the width of the penalty area and then ran wide with it, rather than receiving the ball while already wide.

The first picture is a good example of what people in this thread are complaining about. Bernardeschi is ball-side and not being overlapped by a fullback, yet rather than hugging the touchline to stretch play, he's almost sitting flush with the edge of the penalty area. This is exactly the opposite of what you see the player to the left of KdB doing in your first Man City screenshot/Bernardo Silva doing in the second Man City screenshot -  both of them are far wider than the penalty area and stretching play horizontally.

It's more or less impossible to get the ball-side winger to consistently stretch play like that in FM. They will consistently come inside and sit no wider than the width of the box.

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37 minutes ago, Sneaky Pete said:

To clarify, I don't think anyone is asking for both wide players to hug the touchline simultaneously when the ball is in the attacking third. The far-side winger should obviously be coming infield and potentially making a run at the back post. Anything else would be nonsense.

Your second picture is a good example of what things should look like, although if my gut is correct Chiesa probably received the ball somewhere within the width of the penalty area and then ran wide with it, rather than receiving the ball while already wide.

The first picture is a good example of what people in this thread are complaining about. Bernardeschi is ball-side and not being overlapped by a fullback, yet rather than hugging the touchline to stretch play, he's almost sitting flush with the edge of the penalty area. This is exactly the opposite of what you see the player to the left of KdB doing in your first Man City screenshot/Bernardo Silva doing in the second Man City screenshot -  both of them are far wider than the penalty area and stretching play horizontally.

It's more or less impossible to get the ball-side winger to consistently stretch play like that in FM. They will consistently come inside and sit no wider than the width of the box.

In the first example my Bernardeschi is no more than 3m more infield than Grealish. Grealish is about midway between the touchline and side of 18 yard box.

Chiesa received the ball about 10m further away from goal but didn't increase width since receiving.

I'll look out for what you said, but it's nothing I noticed.

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3 hours ago, Bradz FM said:

What exactly are you wanting?

It's hard to tell from screenshots sometimes. But something like this

73430577_goal4.thumb.gif.0d0ac3897e1f3b69f90a8d1788e987b0.gif

Wingers (#3, #29) are wide enough that they open up channels inside to pass to one of the CAM's or the underlapping IWB. You can tell that these wingers (Winger support in ML/R) are hugging the touchline in the final third. It's clearly in settled possession and not really a counter attack.

Most winger roles produce a shape that looks more like this:

image.png.b8c77ab54646c0a1728b4ef5b597d096.png

Winger is #10, and the attacking CM is #29. You can straight away see that this shape is very different to the previous. It completely ruins the 'Pep's City' style of play where the wide wingers stretch the play to create space inside. Here the wingers are so narrow that not only can the CM's not get so far forward, the IWB's are forced to provide the width.

If you can show me a GIF like the above, where the opposition are pushed back onto the edge of the box, and a winger passes the ball infield for an underlapping run (of a CM or IWB), using a winger in AM, I would be very interested.

 

Edited by Jack722
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2 hours ago, Bradz FM said:

I'll look out for what you said, but it's nothing I noticed.

I've played two games, one with a 4141 with either W(s) or IW(s) (both have hold position and stay wider) and the other with a 433 and the exact same roles and instructions.

Although the 4141 keeps the wingers too deep in buildup, which causes problems, it has the final third shape that I like to see. Whereas the 433 shows the final third shape which is far too narrow.

4141: (wingers #20, #10)

701348590_city41411.thumb.gif.60494ba51913b4309389dc73f6975b6e.gif1273592508_city41412.thumb.gif.16bb3efbc84aeda2d9fef34c84b9805f.gif

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433: (wingers #10, #7)

609169566_city4331.thumb.gif.326adbec17ab496223034ab3e6122b07.gif270591358_city4332.thumb.gif.8aab8bea39ea5f4949f0021ca1ea0123.gif

you'll have to have crazy good technique to find space in an attacking structure like this. The opposition must find it so easy to defend just by simply packing the middle.

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  • 1 month later...
  • 2 weeks later...
On 19/04/2022 at 18:24, DarJ said:

nobody talked about the wide midfielder. They stay wide and they don't run off dribbling unless you ask them to

I'm actually about to comment here about my tactic using wide midfielder.

                        AM-att

WM-at   Mez-at    Mez-at   WM-at

                        DM-su

IWB-su   CB-de     CB-de     IWB-su

Each wide midfielder is asked to stay wider, cross from byline, take more risk, tight marking, tackle harder, close down more.

With the ball, the team attack pretty nicely but obviously without anyone in the forward role, high pressing becomes an issue.

Either way, these WM pretty much doing what I hope they'll do, staying wide, making pass if/when mezzalas make the run, still making crosses from byline, run inside/behind defenders and taking the fullback out of the game most of the time.

Didn't use striker role for most part of the season until during cup final which I needed the team to be a bit more direct.

This tactic is on FM21 tho so I don't know if it can work in FM22.

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1 hour ago, soft tofu said:

I'm actually about to comment here about my tactic using wide midfielder.

                        AM-att

WM-at   Mez-at    Mez-at   WM-at

                        DM-su

IWB-su   CB-de     CB-de     IWB-su

Each wide midfielder is asked to stay wider, cross from byline, take more risk, tight marking, tackle harder, close down more.

With the ball, the team attack pretty nicely but obviously without anyone in the forward role, high pressing becomes an issue.

Either way, these WM pretty much doing what I hope they'll do, staying wide, making pass if/when mezzalas make the run, still making crosses from byline, run inside/behind defenders and taking the fullback out of the game most of the time.

Didn't use striker role for most part of the season until during cup final which I needed the team to be a bit more direct.

This tactic is on FM21 tho so I don't know if it can work in FM22.

I can see the underlap instruction working very well too because you have 3 runners to aim for in the middle

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11 hours ago, DarJ said:

I can see the underlap instruction working very well too because you have 3 runners to aim for in the middle

Yes, but I just like it when the wingers make cutbacks so at this moment, I didn't opt for the underlap instruction.

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On 22/04/2022 at 11:00, soft tofu said:

I'm actually about to comment here about my tactic using wide midfielder.

                        AM-att

WM-at   Mez-at    Mez-at   WM-at

                        DM-su

IWB-su   CB-de     CB-de     IWB-su

Each wide midfielder is asked to stay wider, cross from byline, take more risk, tight marking, tackle harder, close down more.

With the ball, the team attack pretty nicely but obviously without anyone in the forward role, high pressing becomes an issue.

Either way, these WM pretty much doing what I hope they'll do, staying wide, making pass if/when mezzalas make the run, still making crosses from byline, run inside/behind defenders and taking the fullback out of the game most of the time.

Didn't use striker role for most part of the season until during cup final which I needed the team to be a bit more direct.

This tactic is on FM21 tho so I don't know if it can work in FM22.

What team mentality is that on? And how is the possession working? I like the idea you are going with here. 

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22 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

What team mentality is that on? And how is the possession working? I like the idea you are going with here. 

Positive. Much shorter passing, standard tempo.

As the front five are on attacking duty and with the tempo set to standard, the attack came faster than I would have like. But the movement of the player is good. Both wingers putting in crosses and with the AM started deeper, I would usually see defenders aren't able to cope with the run in behind.

Not to mention, the striker in the AM role usually arrives late so he's usually unmarked.

All in all, I got what I wanted in the attacking sense but defensively, the high press aren't working too well although we aren't conceding that much either.

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10 hours ago, Jack722 said:

Saw this interesting animation on reddit and thought I'd share it here:

For anyone unsure about what OP means when his wingers don't stay wide.

Man, watching Mahrez movement and that assist was just so beautiful. Such a shame City weren't able to fully capitalize their chances. Real is also a beast in the UCL this season. Look at how they punish Chelsea earlier.

 

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13 hours ago, soft tofu said:

Man, watching Mahrez movement and that assist was just so beautiful. Such a shame City weren't able to fully capitalize their chances. Real is also a beast in the UCL this season. Look at how they punish Chelsea earlier.

 

Maybe can have a future role in fm23 called the in-behind winger(IBW).

The IBW stays wide like a typical winger but instead of running down to the byline to cross often, he focuses on stretching the play to open gaps in the defence to run in behind to make cutbacks or score goals.

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28 minutes ago, Jyuan83 said:

Maybe can have a future role in fm23 called the in-behind winger(IBW).

The IBW stays wide like a typical winger but instead of running down to the byline to cross often, he focuses on stretching the play to open gaps in the defence to run in behind to make cutbacks or score goals.

I think that's what the IW is supposed to be

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2 hours ago, Jyuan83 said:

Maybe can have a future role in fm23 called the in-behind winger(IBW).

The IBW stays wide like a typical winger but instead of running down to the byline to cross often, he focuses on stretching the play to open gaps in the defence to run in behind to make cutbacks or score goals.

Interesting idea but I disagree.

I think if you don't want your winger to cross so much, it can be achieved by working ball into box or looking for under/overlap.

To fix the issue imo we just need the 'hold position' to force wingers to stay wide, or some sort of 'hug the touchline ' instruction

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hace 4 horas, Jyuan83 dijo:

Maybe can have a future role in fm23 called the in-behind winger(IBW).

The IBW stays wide like a typical winger but instead of running down to the byline to cross often, he focuses on stretching the play to open gaps in the defence to run in behind to make cutbacks or score goals.

I think what we actually need in the wings is a "blank" role, like the Attacking Midfielder, the Wide Midfielder, the Fullback, etc. A role that have little to no PI hadcoded and can be highly customizable.

I found that you can emulate some movements with the roles at our disposal but its limited by the hardcoded behaviour of those roles (The IW can stay stay wide but has cut inside hadcoded, the Winger can hold position but has cross more often, etc), they may be cautious about this maybe because it would be hard for them to balance it. 

The lack of a "blank" role in the wings and in the striker position (We have the Pressing Forward on support which is the closest to this wish) is something that i would like SI to change in the next years.

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6 minutes ago, -Jef- said:

11 and 39 are wingers

 

nwaqann.gif

That is a really nice wide wingers. My guess is 39 is IF? And the striker a DLF or a CF? The movement is so good.

The problem arises when teams play a deep block tho. Both the wingers will come inside almost no matter what. But I'm only talking based on my experience on FM21, not sure how much is changed in 22.

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23 minutes ago, Sheyner21 said:

I think what we actually need in the wings is a "blank" role, like the Attacking Midfielder, the Wide Midfielder, the Fullback, etc. A role that have little to no PI hadcoded and can be highly customizable.

I found that you can emulate some movements with the roles at our disposal but its limited by the hardcoded behaviour of those roles (The IW can stay stay wide but has cut inside hadcoded, the Winger can hold position but has cross more often, etc), they may be cautious about this maybe because it would be hard for them to balance it. 

The lack of a "blank" role in the wings and in the striker position (We have the Pressing Forward on support which is the closest to this wish) is something that i would like SI to change in the next years.

I'm actually trying Wide Target Man at the moment. The role don't have dribble hardcoded, and I can tell them to stay wide, hold position etc. And I gotta say it's actually going quite well. Except of course when the team camp right in front of the goal.

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