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Staff: Model Citizen vs Model Professional


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Spoiler

Model professional has 20 professionalism (and I also think the person needs to be over 23 year old). Model citizen has (I think, if I remember correctly, maybe slight varied) 15-20 in Determination, Professionalism, Ambition, Temperament, Pressure, and a few of the other hidden attributes.

Edit: Putting in spoilers to avoid... well, spoilers.

Edited by XaW
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Those valuations has changed, but everything else is correct, model professional only refering to the players professionalism (and a decent Temperament) while model citizen scores high on all the good hidden mental stats.

Back a few 3-4-5 versions ago a Model Citizen was the ultimate beast, now you can have Mod.cit. with

Spoiler

Determination less than 15

Whereas a Model Cit used to have:

Spoiler

Pro 18-20, Det 18-20, Pre 18-20, Amb 18-20, Loy 18-20, Spo 18-20, Tem 18-20

 

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Well, according to the following video things either have changed or simply were never as we thought them to be. I honestly never placed much emphasis on determination  and have for the most part done well, professionalism seems to by far outweigh anything else. It seems that as long as determination is above 10 player development should be fine, another thing is how determination effects matches which another video suggested isn´t really a big deal, work rate is far more important in matches.

 

Model professional seems to be the best trait for a player and staff.

 

 

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20 hours ago, AurioDK said:

Well, according to the following video things either have changed or simply were never as we thought them to be. I honestly never placed much emphasis on determination  and have for the most part done well, professionalism seems to by far outweigh anything else. It seems that as long as determination is above 10 player development should be fine, another thing is how determination effects matches which another video suggested isn´t really a big deal, work rate is far more important in matches.

 

Model professional seems to be the best trait for a player and staff.

 

 

The video have some points, but determination do matter. In my games if I have a determined team it is more likely to come back from being behind or turn draws into late wins.

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20 hours ago, AurioDK said:

Well, according to the following video things either have changed or simply were never as we thought them to be. I honestly never placed much emphasis on determination  and have for the most part done well, professionalism seems to by far outweigh anything else. It seems that as long as determination is above 10 player development should be fine, another thing is how determination effects matches which another video suggested isn´t really a big deal, work rate is far more important in matches.

 

Model professional seems to be the best trait for a player and staff.

 

 

Don't spread this please.  It's really poor analysis because "studies" such as this cannot account for all the variables in what is a very complex model, because the people concerned have no idea what they all are and thus incorrect conclusions are drawn.  This sort of thing has been done before and debunked by SI.  It helps no one apart from the YouTuber's views and is utterly misleading.

To state "Determination does not matter" is complete nonsense.

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11 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Don't spread this please.  It's really poor analysis because "studies" such as this cannot account for all the variables in what is a very complex model, because the people concerned have no idea what they all are and thus incorrect conclusions are drawn.  This sort of thing has been done before and debunked by SI.  It helps no one apart from the YouTuber's views and is utterly misleading.

To state "Determination does not matter" is complete nonsense.

Do you have a study made for yourself to debunk what Zealand has done? Or are you just another Youtuber fighting for visits?

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To take this off on a slight tangent - I have a process I use with players…

As there are no age limits on M.Citizens, I like to get them tutored by a M.Pro so that I can ensure their Professionalism is as good as it can be (on my phone so no spoiler feature and I want to keep in line with the rest of the thread). 
 

The only way I can bring that back is that, if these players turn to staff, you have a good idea. 
 

Personally- I prefer M.Citizen staff as there are ‘more areas’ you know. But you can use the Media Handling on your staff to get a better insight of their other hidden attributes.

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53 minutes ago, Sharkn20 said:

Do you have a study made for yourself to debunk what Zealand has done? Or are you just another Youtuber fighting for visits?

He  don't need a study because a study that says that determination dont matter is wrong. All the attributes matters in a complex way with each other. Determination do matter a lot in matches. Just try to play with a team that are low on determination.

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3 hours ago, Sharkn20 said:

Do you have a study made for yourself to debunk what Zealand has done? Or are you just another Youtuber fighting for visits?

Regardless of previous "studies" which have done what Zealand has done and already been debunked by SI (as I mentioned above), the main problem is the analysis only shows something which appears to show something odd, rather than something which does show something odd.  That's a big difference.  Unfortunately Zealand is presenting the "findings" as something which does show something odd instead of the former.  That's a problem because the analysis does not - indeed cannot - cover all the variables and inputs simply because the analysts don't know them.  They have zero idea about how everything interacts with everything else or even what "everything" is.  All they've done is cherry pick the things they can see and discounted everything else.  That is no way to form conclusions (which they have done) and thus everything in that video is misleading.

If on the other hand the video had been presented in the style of "hmm, this looks odd, I'll feed the data into SI, let them take a look and report back in another video what their response is" then fine, no problem with that at all and I even encourage it.

So no, I'm not a YouTuber at all, let alone one that is fighting for visits.  Perhaps you should ask the same of the YouTuber who is presenting click baity titles like "Determination does not matter".

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2 hours ago, Number seven said:

He  don't need a study because a study that says that determination dont matter is wrong. All the attributes matters in a complex way with each other. Determination do matter a lot in matches. Just try to play with a team that are low on determination.

For development it´s professionalism and ambition.

The two most important stats throughout a season if you have a competitive squad it´s consistency and work rate.

 

Of the above I am 99% sure, as for determination I don´t really know. My squad isn´t the most determined and I went undefeated through the PL last season but they are all elite players and wonderkids so I can´t really measure how determination is affecting my squad.

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36 minutes ago, AurioDK said:

For development it´s professionalism and ambition.

No, it isn't.  SI have repeatedly stated it's professionalism, ambition and determination in pretty much equal measures.  Further, previous similar studies purporting to show this have been given to SI who then looked at the data and "debunked" it (for want of a better phrase).

This is why "studies" which supposedly show something else can be misleading because they present such conclusions based on incomplete data.  The people presenting the study don't know all the facts, nor do they know how everything interacts with everything else.  Yet they draw conclusions regardless.  This leads to a spreading of misinformation as I'm afraid you are demonstrating.

What should be happening with such "analysis" is to give it to SI to check and respond before conclusions are drawn.

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I get the question in the OP but personally I'm not that rigid in my usual approach to my team.

There are key attributes I want all my players to have: Determination, Bravery, Work Rate. And I look for positive personalities: Professional, Determined, Driven, Resolute.

For staff I look into these types of personality too, but I really also look for the attributes they need to excel at. For instance I'll sign a Physio with Determined + 20 Physiotherapy over a Model Citizen + 10 Physiotherapy.

Personality is important to shape the core of the squad but you also need competent people doing their jobs.

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slightly off topic but Light Hearted is often referenced as a "neutral" personality, while determined is a good one,

yet you can have a light hearted + reserved media handling with a higher Det rating than the "Determined" personality, and also know he has Pro over 15 and deals well with pressure.

PS This was before they re-did the personalities and model citizen became normalized. I know it works differently now but its the only system I've ever really figured out so I use it as a good starting point.

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vor 58 Minuten schrieb herne79:

No, it isn't.  SI have repeatedly stated it's professionalism, ambition and determination in pretty much equal measures.

+1, end of story

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21 hours ago, zindrinho said:

slightly off topic but Light Hearted is often referenced as a "neutral" personality, while determined is a good one,

yet you can have a light hearted + reserved media handling with a higher Det rating than the "Determined" personality, and also know he has Pro over 15 and deals well with pressure.

PS This was before they re-did the personalities and model citizen became normalized. I know it works differently now but its the only system I've ever really figured out so I use it as a good starting point.

The importance of personality labels is greatly overrated for the reasons you mention. You can be a Model Professional and be weak under pressure, disloyal and not determined or ambitious enough to develop particularly quickly. You can be "Unsporting" and be pretty good at everything else

Determined is a particularly useless label since all it tells you is an attribute you can already see is good, plus not perfect professionalism etc..

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1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

The importance of personality labels is greatly overrated for the reasons you mention. You can be a Model Professional and be weak under pressure, disloyal and not determined or ambitious enough to develop particularly quickly. You can be "Unsporting" and be pretty good at everything else

Determined is a particularly useless label since all it tells you is an attribute you can already see is good, plus not perfect professionalism etc..

The point is that you try to reduce unknown. If we assume that you need for proper player development 3 key factors - Determination, Ambition and Professionalism. As you stated you can  have unsporting player with 20 in all of these but you don't know that. If you don't use editor/3rd party tools he can also have 1 in professionalism and ambition.

On the other hand if you get Perfectionist/Model Citizen you are CERTAIN that he has all of those required attributes at desired level so you have statistically higher chance that he'll develop better.

Spoiler

Also for many personalities it used to be 15 or more attribute value but it's now 14 that's why we have Model Citizens with 14 determination.

 

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50 minutes ago, Orion_ said:

The point is that you try to reduce unknown. If we assume that you need for proper player development 3 key factors - Determination, Ambition and Professionalism. As you stated you can  have unsporting player with 20 in all of these but you don't know that. If you don't use editor/3rd party tools he can also have 1 in professionalism and ambition.

On the other hand if you get Perfectionist/Model Citizen you are CERTAIN that he has all of those required attributes at desired level so you have statistically higher chance that he'll develop better.

Sure, if you get Model Citizen. But half the time you're not getting very much revealed at all (ie. The Determined description, which sounds great but basically says an attribute you can already see is good, and others probably aren't)

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10 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Sure, if you get Model Citizen. But half the time you're not getting very much revealed at all (ie. The Determined description, which sounds great but basically says an attribute you can already see is good, and others probably aren't)

Yes but for player development you need just good sum of those 3 attributes. You don't necessarily need all 3 (of course the more the better). So when you have player that have known determination + professional/ambitious personality you know he have at least 2 of them in high values. When it comes to consistency it's not related to any personality and important matches you get just by scouting. To be honest you don't need player to have 20 in important matches (as again of course the more the better). You just want him not to have very poor in this attribute but it is visible in scout report when you get personality checked so you have to do it anyway (if you're playing with attribute masking).

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1 hour ago, Orion_ said:

Yes but for player development you need just good sum of those 3 attributes.

Yes I am aware of this. Hence my point that a "Determined" attribute which tells you the one you can see is good (as you can already see) and the two you can't are nothing special and might actually be low is not very helpful. 14/14/14 (which could be a "negative" personality type) is much better than 18/6/7 for development and tutoring). Professional with a high Determination as well gives you two out of three and slightly reduce other attributes' tendency to make them argue with you all the time, but there are plenty of other personality issues it can hide (especially if you're tutoring others and the professionalism might not be the trait being passed on....)

And I think people massively underestimate how important the Pressure and Temperament attributes are, as well as others having pretty obvious relevance like Loyalty if you want to keep the player and Adaptability if you don't want the development and form to be slowed down by moving from overseas

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29 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Hence my point that a "Determined" attribute which tells you the one you can see is good (as you can already see) and the two you can't are nothing special and might actually be low is not very helpful.

I think you're missing very important factor.

Spoiler

Determined personality have also quite high Ambition. I'm not sure about the numbers but it was 10+ in previous editions.

And all 'Fairly ...' personalities have professionalism and determination below 14 (except Fairly Professional and Fairly Determined of course but they go vice versa, so Fairly Determined has 14+ Determination and 1-13 Professionalism and Fairly Professional has 14+ Professionalism and 1-13 Determination).

As said numbers are little bit off (like said now 14 determination for Model Citizen) but this shows how much you can get from different personalities. Also you can check some with this. It also has little bit off for the number but you can have general view on what to expect from player with certain Determination/Personality/Media Handling combination.

 

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1 hour ago, Orion_ said:

I think you're missing very important factor.

  Hide contents

Determined personality have also quite high Ambition. I'm not sure about the numbers but it was 10+ in previous editions.

And all 'Fairly ...' personalities have professionalism and determination below 14 (except Fairly Professional and Fairly Determined of course but they go vice versa, so Fairly Determined has 14+ Determination and 1-13 Professionalism and Fairly Professional has 14+ Professionalism and 1-13 Determination).

As said numbers are little bit off (like said now 14 determination for Model Citizen) but this shows how much you can get from different personalities. Also you can check some with this. It also has little bit off for the number but you can have general view on what to expect from player with certain Determination/Personality/Media Handling combination.

 

image.png.07cdf729e160e9d78f74dfbef321fcab.png

image.png.33aa2e4a3ce37dddf00e3cc3e7c88eaa.png

 image.png.b8cfa13687f6224f4a8b86853cc37774.png

---

image.png.7f21ecb2813268bd71197b7ca91dce12.png

image.png.8054c756cb733c5283180dfcaa7041d2.png

image.png.4c75163cac45929d56b9718b2c3cd4e4.png

(unfortunately great as those sort of calculators are, they aren't always accurate. tbf the absolute basket case would be "Temperamental" if he was a newgen unless you raised his Temperament to 7)

Edited by enigmatic
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21 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

image.png.07cdf729e160e9d78f74dfbef321fcab.png

image.png.33aa2e4a3ce37dddf00e3cc3e7c88eaa.png

 image.png.b8cfa13687f6224f4a8b86853cc37774.png

---

image.png.7f21ecb2813268bd71197b7ca91dce12.png

image.png.8054c756cb733c5283180dfcaa7041d2.png

image.png.4c75163cac45929d56b9718b2c3cd4e4.png

(unfortunately great as those sort of calculators are, they aren't always accurate. tbf the absolute basket case would be "Temperamental" if he was a newgen unless you raised his Temperament to 7)

Thanks for that great example. I see what you mean.

Yet still we come back to the point that personality should give you only a hint of what hidden attributes of a player can be. They can be as you showed on the screens. But if you have someone with Perfectionist Personality you have higher certainty what are his attributes you're looking for than when he's Determined/Fairly Determined. It's all about reducing the known. Even after this you are still not guaranteed how the player will develop just as in real life.

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On 27/02/2021 at 18:41, Number seven said:

He  don't need a study because a study that says that determination dont matter is wrong. All the attributes matters in a complex way with each other. Determination do matter a lot in matches. Just try to play with a team that are low on determination.

If you can understand the video, it says that Determination is the 2nd most important attribute for player development after Porfessionalism.

So yeah, you haven't watch or understand the video. Or you are just another troll.

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On 27/02/2021 at 21:13, herne79 said:

Regardless of previous "studies" which have done what Zealand has done and already been debunked by SI (as I mentioned above), the main problem is the analysis only shows something which appears to show something odd, rather than something which does show something odd.  That's a big difference.  Unfortunately Zealand is presenting the "findings" as something which does show something odd instead of the former.  That's a problem because the analysis does not - indeed cannot - cover all the variables and inputs simply because the analysts don't know them.  They have zero idea about how everything interacts with everything else or even what "everything" is.  All they've done is cherry pick the things they can see and discounted everything else.  That is no way to form conclusions (which they have done) and thus everything in that video is misleading.

If on the other hand the video had been presented in the style of "hmm, this looks odd, I'll feed the data into SI, let them take a look and report back in another video what their response is" then fine, no problem with that at all and I even encourage it.

So no, I'm not a YouTuber at all, let alone one that is fighting for visits.  Perhaps you should ask the same of the YouTuber who is presenting click baity titles like "Determination does not matter".

Can You point me to the Thread in which SI debunks this video?

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On 27/02/2021 at 22:04, herne79 said:

No, it isn't.  SI have repeatedly stated it's professionalism, ambition and determination in pretty much equal measures.  Further, previous similar studies purporting to show this have been given to SI who then looked at the data and "debunked" it (for want of a better phrase).

This is why "studies" which supposedly show something else can be misleading because they present such conclusions based on incomplete data.  The people presenting the study don't know all the facts, nor do they know how everything interacts with everything else.  Yet they draw conclusions regardless.  This leads to a spreading of misinformation as I'm afraid you are demonstrating.

What should be happening with such "analysis" is to give it to SI to check and respond before conclusions are drawn.

You are just trolling at this point.

They are not equally weighted, so Stop spreading false information or point us to the threads in which SI says literally that are equally important in FM21.

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1 minute ago, Sharkn20 said:

If you can understand the video, it says that Determination is the 2nd most important attribute for player development after Porfessionalism.

So yeah, you haven't watch or understand the video. Or you are just another troll.

Please don't be as confronting. The title of the video is "Determination doesn't matter", and that is clearly false, and Zealand even says so in the video (I watched it fully). So he is doing some semi-clickbaiting in the title, and that's not uncommon, after all he wants people to view the video.

And it's an interesting experiment they are doing, but the real problem is that they cannot control all variables, only a few select ones. So they have found certain correlations, but as everyone SHOULD know correlation does not equal causation. And that is key, they don't have the inner workings of the how the mechanic work, and they cannot control all variables, so the experiment is fundamentally flawed. Very interesting, indeed, but not even close to proving anything.

If Zealand and his fellow mathematician would like to prove this theory, they can report it to SI and have them look at the raw data and give feedback from there.

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FM Base was a decent forum, I used to hang around there a few yrs back, but that youtube channel is just a waste of time.
When you do so-called "experiements" you usually have a control group, only 1 unknown factor and then repeat the experiement as many times as possible to get the most correct result. What he's doing in that video is just insulting peoples intelligence.

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2 hours ago, Sharkn20 said:

You are just trolling at this point.

They are not equally weighted, so Stop spreading false information or point us to the threads in which SI says literally that are equally important in FM21.

 

2 hours ago, Sharkn20 said:

If you can understand the video, it says that Determination is the 2nd most important attribute for player development after Porfessionalism.

So yeah, you haven't watch or understand the video. Or you are just another troll.

Fantastic,  because someone disagree with you or don't agree with the video they're trolling... Congrats with the hig level of amazing quality posting.

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I would argue that Cristiano Ronaldo ages better than any other player in the game, and has done for several years. He has the perfectionist personality.

Driven, Iron Willed (very few of these knocking about mind), Model Citizen, Model Professional, Perfectionist, Professional, Resolute and Very Ambitious are all great and hugely positive indicators. 

Ambition is an indicator of how desperate a player is to want to get to the top, Professionalism is an indicator of how long they will likely remain at the peak, Determination is a little less specific in its influence but its always there. It plays a part in actually playing well in games and that in turn plays a part in development. 

I'm a bit reticent to say too much though because I know I've had some discussions about this area of the game via email with folk at SI and that stuff probably comes under my researcher NDA but ultimately discounting any one aspect is at your own risk. Overly specialising in one niche and trying to create a uniform mentality among your team isn't always for the best either. 

Keep in mind some attributes can be a poisoned chalice, work rate is on the whole extremely good, until a hard working player has run himself into the ground early in the game or has been drawn out of position. 

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