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Manchester City Pep Guardiola Analysis and Tactical Recreation


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Posted (edited)

How it started support version 2020-2021 3-2 shape double pivot: ( Slight More possession slightly weaker overall tactic )

4-3-3 Manchester City 2020-2021 ThecultofFM Support.fmf

How it ended & current Version 2020 - 2021 3-2 shape double pivot : ( Tactic used in save ) 

4-3-3 Manchester City 2020-2021 ThecultofFM.fmf

 

Alternative 2017 - 2019 W shape 2-3 build up 

4-3-3 Manchester City 2017-2019 ThecultofFM.fmf

 

I need to finally go get some sleep but I'm looking forward to hearing how people do with this. If you're playing in any league other then the premier league i'll be shocked if you don't absolutely destroy teams in terms of dominating areas of the pitch and therefore possession! 

I'll look to start a new save too in a different league to test and tweak a little.

 

One other thing if you need to get a goal all i did was put the tempo to the highest amount first. 

Second change attacking and LB to CWB-A

Third Change Ultra attacking menality. More often then not if you went through that process early enough you got a goal back.

 

Be careful with those counter attacks! they're annoying. I think my first change would be the DLP and changing him to a role that keeps mostly his in possession positives but then is different in transition or out of possession! Maybe a defend duty if that didn't change it to structured otherwise that could have major knock on effects to other players.

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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What's your take on the performance of the right IWB after shifting the DM further left? I'm also currently playing a possession 4-3-3 and am also using a inverted Wing back on the right. Do you find the IWB is now more involved after the change?

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I don't know about more involved but involved differently. If I keep the CDM centrally both IWB's take up similar positions either side, with him set to one side the IWB on the right side seems to average a lot narrower of a position especially it seems the closer you get to the opposition goal. Hope that helps

 

Also to everyone else i'm currently tweaking the up to date 433 it's too bad defensively for my liking I said it wasn't perfect and ready haha! currently testing and hopefully will have a solution pretty soon. 

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Posted (edited)

I decided to start a new save with a new team in a different league and I picked my favourite Norwegian team Rosenborg.

 

Now I had a terrible start to this season for a number of reasons.

1 being that I signed about 15 players.

2, I was tweaking the tactic and trying to find ways to continue the dominance of the zones on the ball but being better to defend the counter in transition and better out of possession.

 

After tweaking I think I've improved it a little. After all of them I think as the tactic is playing right this second the only tweak from the last tactic I uploaded is the RCB on close down less but I'll upload it anyway incase i'm wrong.

Here's the last two games now that we've finally settled down and accepted the new style of football 

846556131_Screenshot2021-05-04at04_36_13.png.2373a65d0d451c32a9558219d5b3b960.png

1721379807_Screenshot2021-05-04at04_36_05.png.a49f4f99a0d17d76ce1fb81d91633267.png

 

 

1768297283_Screenshot2021-05-04at04_35_54.png.672a44fdb11bfee57cee3bc9aada062d.png

 

In terms of results we are currently Joined top and we're really starting to hit top form now. We just clawed back from 7 points behind just 4 games ago and we're really starting to look good. When the team starts to understand the tactic and you hit good form the football is beautiful to watch in which i'll do a detailed explanation at some point but not until i've tested it in multiple leagues. I do think this one is less plug and play then the original one but is potentially better long term. We will see.

 

4-3-3 Rosenborg.fmf

 

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

I don't know about more involved but involved differently. If I keep the CDM centrally both IWB's take up similar positions either side, with him set to one side the IWB on the right side seems to average a lot narrower of a position especially it seems the closer you get to the opposition goal. Hope that helps

 

Also to everyone else i'm currently tweaking the up to date 433 it's too bad defensively for my liking I said it wasn't perfect and ready haha! currently testing and hopefully will have a solution pretty soon. 

You can adjust the narrowness or wideness of the RB by using the underlap or overlap shout respectively.

Of course this has the implication of raising his mentality and lowering the wingers, so may not be what you want.

But I've found with the underlap shout, he stays super narrow like Walker occasionally does and blocks the middle from counterattacks.

Secondly, I do think you should consider removing the extremely urgent shout. You could just use more urgent pressing instead.

The problem with extremely urgent is yes, it simulates fantastic pressure especially in the moment after losing the ball, along with counterpressing. But it also negates the fact that City have the best "rest defence" in the league. They maintain a fantastic defensive block when the opponent has settled in possession, with disciplined positioning, rather than haphazardly abandoning their positions to press without first ascertaining the presence of cover 

Personally I use neither more urgent pressing nor extremely urgent. Instead I use a split block defense, much like City do in real life. The default pressing option for Positive is slightly more urgent, and that's what I use.

The striker, wingers and one central midfielder are set to close down more and tackle harder. It replicates City's 4-4-2 shape in the initial transition when the opponent tries to build from the back. So basically, you still get to press ferociously. Just more concentrated in the front, as they do. I also never liked the way extremely urgent causes the players to fully vacate their positions.

My DMs only instructions are to tackle harder (so he can pick up Fernandinho yellow cards and stop transitions) and dribble more, because much like you, I've found this instruction allows him a bit more mobility to move up and place more accurate passes, rather than taking opponents on like we initially feared. When he doesn't have dribble more, I find he's much more likely to place a long ball to the flank which may or may not connect.

Anyways, I feel like this split block simulates excellent frontal  pressure while also allowing for a calm Rest Defence. I've found I concede very few goals with this style of defending. My Schalke screenshot from earlier where we only conceded 19 goals is around the number I average per season with this tactical setup 

 

 

 

Edited by Ripamon
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Ripamon said:

You can adjust the narrowness or wideness of the RB by using the underlap or overlap shout respectively.

Of course this has the implication of raising his mentality and lowering the wingers, so may not be what you want.

But I've found with the underlap shout, he stays super narrow like Walker occasionally does and blocks the middle from counterattacks.

Secondly, I do think you should consider removing the extremely urgent shout. You could just use more urgent pressing instead.

The problem with extremely urgent is yes, it simulates fantastic pressure especially in the moment after losing the ball, along with counterpressing. But it also negates the fact that City have the best "rest defence" in the league. They maintain a fantastic defensive block when the opponent has settled in possession, with disciplined positioning, rather than haphazardly abandoning their positions to press without first ascertaining the presence of cover 

Personally I use neither more urgent pressing nor extremely urgent. Instead I use a split block defense, much like City do in real life. The default pressing option for Positive is slightly more urgent, and that's what I use.

The striker, wingers and one central midfielder are set to close down more and tackle harder. It replicates City's 4-4-2 shape in the initial transition when the opponent tries to build from the back. So basically, you still get to press ferociously. Just more concentrated in the front, as they do. I also never liked the way extremely urgent causes the players to fully vacate their positions.

My DMs only instructions are to tackle harder (so he can pick up Fernandinho yellow cards and stop transitions) and dribble more, because much like you, I've found this instruction allows him a bit more mobility to move up and place more accurate passes, rather than taking opponents on like we initially feared. When he doesn't have dribble more, I find he's much more likely to place a long ball to the flank which may or may not connect.

Anyways, I feel like this split block simulates excellent frontal  pressure while also allowing for a calm Rest Defence. I've found I concede very few goals with this style of defending. My Schalke screenshot from earlier where we only conceded 19 goals is around the number I average per season with this tactical setup 

 

 

 

HI mate,

First off thank you for sharing your thoughts and findings it's always great to see different ways of achieving things but by the way the second half of your message went I feel this should be mentioned as it's probably been missed.

I would like to take another opportunity to say that I am not trying to replicate them out of possession at least until I've perfected the in possession. To try and do both in the game is going to leave you having to decide between gaining and losing different things even more. 

Yeah I actually did City's out of possession pressing specifically for my UEFA B & what they do in real life is very difficult to replicate in FM especially when in one of their pressing shape's where the opposite winger tucking into the midfield as a central midfielder goes out to press a CB to maintain a compact shape. This is one of the reasons I never bothered to attempt to recreate the out of possession. Even this season they've switched out of possession traps and set ups depending on the team so I don't agree that there is a "City way" out of possession to replicate.  Against Liverpool they've what appears like a flat 442 out of possession with the opposite winger moving into the centre often. Then against Everton Jesus a number of times would not press the CB instead dropping onto the CDM and having the 2 wide players press the back line where it's almost looked like a narrow diamond. Also the way they've locked teams into one side & stopped them retaining doesn't work in the game which is yet another reason why I haven't bothered. I also feel with less intensity on the pressing settings kill a number of factors on the game that influence domination in different areas of the pitch. 

Again the disciplined shape they retreat into after a certain period I'm very aware of this it's been talked about on sky sports since about 2008 but again once the opposition play a pass back into a zone or situation they're happy with they will then start to press aggressively again they won't just sit in their shape the entire time. 

My Original tactic with Boston with the highest levels of press conceded 21 goals the entire 46 game season with the most maximum pressing as a non title favourite. So to just put it down to pressing settings as a binary problem and solution is misleading. And I'm not saying you here but it does seem on this forum if you're not playing what people consider to be a "split block" it's not realistic, it won't work and it's the only way to defend on this forum. Also if your understanding is just pressing with front players in this case the front 5 and the others behind it not then my tactics on the absolute maximum still only does that especially while they're building their attack.

 

I also encourage anyone to google search the words split block or split block football. You'll see almost all of the hits that are football related are from the sports interactive forums. Be careful what you read on here and taking it at face value from the number of years someone has been here or the likes they've got on their profile.

 

1480136335_Screenshot2021-05-04at11_52_01.png.310ff04e45670e3ffd4da2c34fb73068.png

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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1 minute ago, cristhianlinhatti said:

@Cult of Football Manager, is possible  replicate this 4-4-2-0 played agaist PSG?

 

 

I was thinking about it during the game. I'm just tweaking some stuff now with the recent one and got some tests running by some people. 

I'd have to rewatch the game and analyse it but lots of parts in the front 5 if you will were very similar to the Everton game it's just in the Everton game Jesus was listed as the striker but you could make loads of still images and clips of city looking like they had 2 strikers or 0 depending on the moment!

I'm going to make a video soon about the tactic and talk about some of the Pep analysis and the Zones used looking at them rather then positions. What's been brilliant this season is just how different they can look with a few players rotated and play within the same philosophy and zonal dominance with different shapes!

I missed the first 2 minutes does anyone know what that was on the pitch was it just frost/snow!?

 

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The best tactic creator in the world @knap has been testing the latest version.

image.png.29f23aa68a37ca06fd040cfff17498a8.png

image.png.e25bb28701f148cc0a80dfab74a39b4a.png 

I believe this was a normal test with no tweaks yet. Assistant manager also picked the team for every game and no transfers.

Purely from a statistical point of view to get 60% Average Possession and 20,000 passes completed + is a Very good first season in the premier league whoever you play as and I suspect it could be higher in others. This averages to 526 Passes per game again if its pure statistics that matter to you.

 

The problem is 92 goals scored isn't amazing for FM and 29 is a little high so tweaks obviously need to be made to make it a better overall tactic.

I just makes me wonder now playing in a smaller league and playing the save properly in terms of buying players to fit into the tactic etc what sort of numbers we could throw up. 

I will add clips eventually they take a while to process and I've been trying to just play as much as possible!

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

The best tactic creator in the world @knap has been testing the latest version.

image.png.29f23aa68a37ca06fd040cfff17498a8.png

image.png.e25bb28701f148cc0a80dfab74a39b4a.png 

I believe this was a normal test with no tweaks yet. Assistant manager also picked the team for every game and no transfers.

Purely from a statistical point of view to get 60% Average Possession and 20,000 passes completed + is a Very good first season in the premier league whoever you play as and I suspect it could be higher in others. This averages to 526 Passes per game again if its pure statistics that matter to you.

 

The problem is 92 goals scored isn't amazing for FM and 29 is a little high so tweaks obviously need to be made to make it a better overall tactic.

I just makes me wonder now playing in a smaller league and playing the save properly in terms of buying players to fit into the tactic etc what sort of numbers we could throw up. 

I will add clips eventually they take a while to process and I've been trying to just play as much as possible!

Good results! But would be interesting to see a test with a more midlevel club like Spurs or Arsenal. And not just Liverpool and Man City. 

I find that in the game almost any tactic works with those two. Same as with Real Madrid or PSG (not to test with I mean).

 

 

 

 

Edited by crusadertsar
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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Good results! But would be interesting to see a test with a more midlevel club like Spurs or Arsenal. And not just Liverpool and Man City. 

I find that in the game almost any tactic works with those two. Same as with Real Madrid or PSG.

 

 

 

 

That's definitely a good point and something that has to be taken into consideration. On the other hand if it only worked with top level clubs in respective to their division I would be ok with that as long as the recreation is close. I wouldn't be totally disappointed as Pep himself hasn't shown us the results of that experiment yet!

Also I think many people despite playing as top clubs struggle to even resemble a possession based system ( not even a pep recreation specifically )  and I think that plays a part in the interest in these types of threads. I'm assuming there's people that come in here just want to have some ideas on how to create a tactic that can keep the ball!

I'll test after Rosenborg.

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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By the way I realised I haven't put it here,

Here is the start of my second season with Boston from my save on my YT Channel. This is with my original "Finished" tactic.

 

We've just been promoted to this division remember

 

 

995394341_Screenshot2021-05-04at23_42_08.png.f635ed95659028944a9235c118068719.png

1087540656_Screenshot2021-05-04at23_42_16.png.3fb371ca53c0a1f13bc0cc7d8c02f17c.png

 

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 I haven't really uploaded many clips of the new tactic so I thought I'd do that from the City save I first played through and the Rosenborg save. I haven't had much time as my clips take ages to process so to save time these are all goals and moves leading to goals there are definitely better examples of the patterns and movements we are looking for I just haven't had time yet and will get round to sharing those soon.

 

Everton A:

  • Longer build up and different players taking responsibility of the wide zo e

 

Chelsea H:

  • Wide players holding width really well and great finish from LW reminded me of a Henry at Barca or Mahrez at city just on the other side.

 

 

Leeds H:

  • LCM into half space between the FB & CB to score. Perfect!

 

CL A: 

  • Long patient move where nearly everyone touches the ball.

 

VIlla A:

  • Switch over to the weak side with the winger on the outside of the backline

 

 

Brighton H:

  • One of the best assists i've seen looks like a no look pass haha! Incidentally it's the RCM who's played through beyond the backline here to score

 

 

Chelsea H:

  • Goal starts with Ederson playing out from the back and finishes with the striker showing when required he can be a threat in behind.

 

 

Chelsea H:

  • Perfect run by LCM between their CB and player occupying the RB role. Ball played from our player in a wide zone/

 

 

Chelsea H:

  • Brilliant passing move finished by the RW staying wide then timing his run more central to get the ball on the outside of the back line and scoring

 

 

Southampton H:

  • This move is like all of the City players are a step ahead of the opposition probably one of the best overall moves.

 

 

West Ham H:

  • Just finishing off with a great example of the Mezzala and IW both occupying the attention of the FB and as soon as the IW goes to dribble into the zone the Mezzala threatens in behind creating space for a shot and goal. This is the same principle as the goal in Everton game from the analysis but different players, different side and in different zones but achieving the same principle. 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Also here are some results from some testing from somebody who does this on a regular basis. Here they play as United, Fulham and West Ham all in the same save.

 

image.png.1957b87fd1009f26218d2bbbf9fd786e.png

 

image.png.ebfa739b1399ef58e78e7d1a9bf5a82d.png

 

image.png.15b5ba3df6579fe07de6abfce032929e.png

 

What's surprising is how well it does with a relegation battler but how it underperformed as a tactic with United. Now I never expected this tactic if we ever perfected it to be a fully Plug and play tactic. It's very specific in what it's trying to achieve and we still have no idea in real life if Pep took over West Ham what sort of position they'd end up in. 

The new tactic is definitely a tactic you have to build your squad towards not in type of player but also in quality. If you're a top team in your league it will work for you I mean don't forget in that test they don't play any games and the assistant picks the team and makes his own changes every game both subs and tactical.

 

In my first 2 Play through's we have this.

 

Manchester City PL & CL winners:

 

League Table:

1730130_Screenshot2021-05-06at11_06_08.png.a1715f20aa300219944e6e70405ce640.png

 

Average Possession:

 

51738125_Screenshot2021-05-06at11_06_35.png.649e8428b7b80b6deec6bd471d14d21b.png

 

XG For:

242566258_Screenshot2021-05-06at11_06_46.png.af490fecbea0f8aed3bd4334e0e06d20.png

 

XG Against:

 

1051081213_Screenshot2021-05-06at11_07_17.png.1ac3e2d661fc55cd802455572c62dc59.png

 

 

I didn't play the tactic from the very start I was tweaking. We won all 19 games at Home and dropped all our points away which is interesting. We got caught a lot on the counter and either a different role for the left pivot or moving him central are 2 options for that. I prefer how it plays strikerless but it's a much worse tactic I feel overall so far but will go back to it at some point. It's probably close to where City will end up in real life. They dropped a lot of points this season early on but will break 90 points most likely but not by a lot and are in the Champions league final.

 

Rosenborg League winners ( No domestic cup 2020/2021 season ):

 

League Table:

1542402041_Screenshot2021-05-05at01_26_15.png.7943e8e83e3370372fa07dc831ea97b1.png

 

Average Possession

100653826_Screenshot2021-05-05at01_26_23.png.a7936c20e8556a691a7611d23b9d18f0.png

 

XG For:

 

1450185842_Screenshot2021-05-05at01_26_31.png.36aaa17f50157a99c4d877db3a75b40a.png

 

XG Against:

2140989238_Screenshot2021-05-05at01_26_51.png.f412b1388956266253ff69710896c9b3.png

 

 

No tweaking really in this save I did sign a lot of players ( I got carried away with the cheap Norwegian market ) & we dropped A LOT of points early on!

 

988071321_Screenshot2021-05-06at11_14_28.png.b1640ec514a66067ce041aa44cfa7f6b.png

 

 

We then recovered and won the league.

I'm looking forward to continue testing a member messaged me a test he was running with his own create a club and he won the championship with 66% average possession & is currently in the top 4 on 57% in his first season in the premier league.

My favourite for movements was basically this tactic but strikerless with the false striker on a support duty and the RB on Support duty. This got not only a great variety of movements but our Mezzala's making the desired runs on a more regular basis. The issue is it was far too passive and dropped points too often.

PF-A links up well enough and still threats the back line which opens up other combinations but we will see.

 

In my save with Boston we are still dominating with the old tactic. We don't get enough runs between the FB & CB but if you're not really bothered with that then the original is performing very well still!

 

1049265684_Screenshot2021-05-06at10_36_13.png.6eb7fed257b327be46786e5c2bc72fd3.png

 

203534834_Screenshot2021-05-06at11_23_17.png.b518211a26b31b77eb0244969f2a8c35.png

 

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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Posted (edited)

I'm Excited.....

Playing with some tweaks as Tottenham on a new save to test with a lower quality and reputation team.

 

Game 1:

Clip 1:

Now it's not perfect the RW does have a go at dribbling himself first but does play the RCM into the gap between the FB & CB who crosses for us to score YES progress if we can make this more regular.

 

Game 2:

 

This clip is about as perfect as you're going to get in our "pattern 1" combination of movements to break the back 4 between the FB & CB. 

 

Breakdown:

 

 1:

760131462_Screenshot2021-05-06at22_11_29.png.8c73e8289a20563e50c1b856e5f8c49d.png

 

  • The RB is just out of the camera shot here at the start of us playing out from the back. He will move central and occupy the attention of their LW opening up the chance for our RW to drop off the front line and receive the ball in a slightly deeper zone without being screened.

 

2.

1722919006_Screenshot2021-05-06at22_04_49.png.e66a0cb022ba2706b4c64f1d04b6e482.png

 

3.

797609438_Screenshot2021-05-06at22_04_57.png.49c170724ca9a954bfa72f26a8d371a2.png

 

4.

 

2019216209_Screenshot2021-05-06at22_05_05.png.cab41f56e2646e4e805a2579fd03600a.png

 

  • Here the RW is now on the ball and the RCM looks to make his run between the fullback and centre back. 

 

5.

163351163_Screenshot2021-05-06at22_05_21.png.072b0ecee45c0538e0aa1137b2ca999d.png

 

  • The left back decides late to leave the RW and go with the runner but it's too late.

 

6. 

 

209047342_Screenshot2021-05-06at22_05_40.png.f341bf647c91d1b4c1fd758ec3d073d2.png

 

  • He breaks all the way through to this point and the Striker makes a great pull back movement very much Aguero like.

 

7.

 

2086189092_ScreenshotSpurs.jpg.aa6ff965ece4242ab88f79d6ddcc2cc0.jpg

 

  • And a great finish to finish off a great move.

 

 

Game 2 Clip 2:

 

 

 

This one is arguable an even better example as the opposition fullback moves straight out to press clearly leaving the gap for us to play in and score from. The LCM delays on the ball a little before releasing it but the move to that point is absolutely brilliant and it's unbelievable to see both of these goals in the same game.

 

We might actually be onto something here.

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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6 hours ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

I was hoping to have a full save to bring everyone but i've been a little busy with other stuff. 

 

In case it takes a while here is my current set up getting the movement in the clips above.

148942700_Screenshot2021-05-08at01_22_49.png.a200e9430ab709e9e3cf007ea8706126.png

 

4-3-3 Pep Recreation 433 TheCultofFM.fmf 44.12 kB · 9 downloads

The amount of testing you've done is incredible. Also how you regularly pump out such detailed posts haha. Cheers mate.

This setup looks pretty good, I must say. I'll give it a whirl too.

I've refined my own tactics and played a full season with Lyon with excellent results, will make a post soon but a bit lazy haha. 

 

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Posted (edited)

Great stuff with the patterns of play there.

For what it's worth, this is the closest I've managed to get to creating those situations with a 2-3-5 (trying to keep Team Instructions to a minimum) on FM20:

Balanced
Much Shorter Passing, Play Out of Defence, Low Crosses, Underlap Left, Underlap Right, Focus Play Through Middle
Counter-Press
Higher DL

SKd

IWBs - CDd - CDd - IWBs

Ad 

MEZa - MEZa

IWs (Get Further Forward, Stay Wider, Close Down More) - IWs (Get Further Forward, Stay Wider, Close Down More)

F9s (Close Down More)

That's not the most adventurous setup, but I was playing in the Football League with less talented players, rather than being expected to win the PL/CL every season - still, the results were very solid - particularly defensively. If I needed a goal, I would increase the Mentality, drop to Shorter Passing, and sometimes use Be More Expressive and Work Ball Into Box together to break teams down. You could also use more aggressive out of possession instructions if you have the players for it.

As you've done in your latest version, I found that the key to getting the 'free 8' to make those runs beyond the wingers was:

  • Mezzala on Attack - rather than starting from an AM position, you want them to start deep, then push high up into the halfspaces. The Attacking mentality means they get into dangerous areas - I've found the Mezzala on Support doesn't get forward enough to give a well-defined front five for overloading a back four.
  • Inverted Winger on Support at AMRL - rather than starting from the MRL strata, you want them to start high at AMRL, then move deeper. The Support duty means that they will drop off to receive the ball, which creates space. What's also important is to have them on 'Stay Wider', so they maintain the width. The Inside Forward comes inside too much even with 'Stay Wider', and the Winger is hardcoded to 'Run Wide with Ball' and Cross More Often, which I find means they will try and beat the full back down the inside more often than making those inside passes, even with 'Work Ball Into Box' or 'Narrow'. I also like them in the AMRL strata so they will press the opposition as a front three with the FC.
  • Underlap - this encourages those inside passes even more, but also increases the mentality of the Inverted Wing Backs and reduces that of the wingers. I wouldn't personally feel the need to use an Attack duty at full back, as I really like the positioning that IWBs and Underlap gives you - they will support attacks, but also provide cover against counter-attacks to make up for the aggressive Mezzalas.
Edited by Mike_Cardinal
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2 hours ago, Ripamon said:

The amount of testing you've done is incredible. Also how you regularly pump out such detailed posts haha. Cheers mate.

This setup looks pretty good, I must say. I'll give it a whirl too.

I've refined my own tactics and played a full season with Lyon with excellent results, will make a post soon but a bit lazy haha. 

 

Thanks mate I really appreciate it! It's definitely designed for a top side but the only issue I found with a team like Spurs is the striker role. The DLF moves and creates how I want the striker to move and create but then just seems to not score as often as a PF-A which is what I changed to if I need a goal!

I'm going to play a full season with City to finish it off & I'll post findings. If anyone bas any tweaks feel free to tell me and share and @Ripamon if you do tweak it to your less urgent pressing style let us know if it's any better as it's still not perfect defensively but it is better!

 

haha no worries mate just screenshot your tactic and the league table no analysis needed haha!

 

47 minutes ago, Mike_Cardinal said:

Great stuff with the patterns of play there.

For what it's worth, this is the closest I've managed to get to creating those situations with a 2-3-5 (trying to keep Team Instructions to a minimum) on FM20:

Balanced
Much Shorter Passing, Play Out of Defence, Low Crosses, Underlap Left, Underlap Right, Focus Play Through Middle
Counter-Press
Higher DL

SKd

IWBs - CDd - CDd - IWBs

Ad 

MEZa - MEZa

IWs (Get Further Forward, Stay Wider, Close Down More) - IWs (Get Further Forward, Stay Wider, Close Down More)

F9s (Close Down More)

That's not the most adventurous setup, but I was playing in the Football League with less talented players, rather than being expected to win the PL/CL every season - still, the results were very solid - particularly defensively. If I needed a goal, I would increase the Mentality, drop to Shorter Passing, and sometimes use Be More Expressive and Work Ball Into Box together to break teams down. You could also use more aggressive out of possession instructions if you have the players for it.

As you've done in your latest version, I found that the key to getting the 'free 8' to make those runs beyond the wingers was:

  • Mezzala on Attack - rather than starting from an AM position, you want them to start deep, then push high up into the halfspaces. The Attacking mentality means they get into dangerous areas - I've found the Mezzala on Support doesn't get forward enough to give a well-defined front five for overloading a back four.
  • Inverted Winger on Support at AMRL - rather than starting from the MRL strata, you want them to start high at AMRL, then move deeper. The Support duty means that they will drop off to receive the ball, which creates space. What's also important is to have them on 'Stay Wider', so they maintain the width. The Inside Forward comes inside too much even with 'Stay Wider', and the Winger is hardcoded to 'Run Wide with Ball' and Cross More Often, which I find means they will try and beat the full back down the inside more often than making those inside passes, even with 'Work Ball Into Box' or 'Narrow'. I also like them in the AMRL strata so they will press the opposition as a front three with the FC.
  • Underlap - this encourages those inside passes even more, but also increases the mentality of the Inverted Wing Backs and reduces that of the wingers. I wouldn't personally feel the need to use an Attack duty at full back, as I really like the positioning that IWBs and Underlap gives you - they will support attacks, but also provide cover against counter-attacks to make up for the aggressive Mezzalas.

 

haha it sounds like we've been through similar issues and found similar solutions ! on FM 20 you say?

A lower mentality I can see being a huge benefit to get movements & patterns etc but also requiring more in game work to tweak & fix any issues?

 

Interesting with the Support duties everywhere and it's something I did consider the F-9 with 2 IW-S but DLF seemed to work pretty well but I will definitely look to revisit this as I haven't liked using the DLF role since FM 16 for some reason. I know it's always about the rest of the tactic but I've just not liked it for a long time.. but it's ok for now!

and with your Defend duty at CDM ( Which is my other position I would still look to change for my own tactic ) I assume you end up on flexible too with your selection of roles and duties?

Feel free to share some screenshots of league tables or results if you're getting good ones!

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32 minutes ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

Thanks mate I really appreciate it! It's definitely designed for a top side but the only issue I found with a team like Spurs is the striker role. The DLF moves and creates how I want the striker to move and create but then just seems to not score as often as a PF-A which is what I changed to if I need a goal!

I'm going to play a full season with City to finish it off & I'll post findings. If anyone bas any tweaks feel free to tell me and share and @Ripamon if you do tweak it to your less urgent pressing style let us know if it's any better as it's still not perfect defensively but it is better!

 

haha no worries mate just screenshot your tactic and the league table no analysis needed haha!

 

 

haha it sounds like we've been through similar issues and found similar solutions ! on FM 20 you say?

A lower mentality I can see being a huge benefit to get movements & patterns etc but also requiring more in game work to tweak & fix any issues?

 

Interesting with the Support duties everywhere and it's something I did consider the F-9 with 2 IW-S but DLF seemed to work pretty well but I will definitely look to revisit this as I haven't liked using the DLF role since FM 16 for some reason. I know it's always about the rest of the tactic but I've just not liked it for a long time.. but it's ok for now!

and with your Defend duty at CDM ( Which is my other position I would still look to change for my own tactic ) I assume you end up on flexible too with your selection of roles and duties?

Feel free to share some screenshots of league tables or results if you're getting good ones!

Yes the DLF (A) unfortunately isn't as frequently in contact with the defensive line, so not really a frequent target for through balls or holding up the play in advanced positions really, and they'll never be in the box for a quick cross.

PF(a) is like a more aggressive complete forward but unfortunately so static in comparison. Sometimes he just stays in the center (even with roam) waiting. I find the Advanced Forward has way more movement bit encourages too many long balls haha 

It's so hard to get right really. These days I'm liking the CF(a) a lot more because he will make occasional runs in the box as well as drop deep to link play. 

Honestly I'm beginning to see the magic of using slightly less instructions and allowing your players make their own decisions within a broader tactical framework. For example I've been watching more matches on full and I'm beginning to get disillusioned with the "low crosses instruction"

Sure we normally use smaller forwards and yes it looks glorious when it comes off, and lastly I know it doesn't mean they will always cross low. But I'm seeing so many opportunities where the shot is blocked by the defender because it was a low cross and he could get his body in the way, or when he drills the cross across the ground when it needed just a bit more elevation. 

I've realized that to a certain extent the type of cross will be dependent on the strikers profile anyways. They'll usually put it in the air for Calvert Lewin but they'll drill it across the ground for Moukouko where possible.

So yeah I think you should also consider removing the instruction for the time being and see where it takes you. 

I used to get annoyed with how many point blank headers my players would sky over the bar, but now I get annoyed at how they blast the low cross into the defenders shins haha. 

Anyways, just a random observation. Cheers 

 

 

 

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New version with some tweaks. Will post a breakdown soon.

In short the out of possession is a lot more stable with less all out press and in this version the striker role can be changed to suit. The DLF-A seems to get the patterns and movements out the best but the Poacher weirdly gets the best overall results and all types of strikers seem to be able to score with the poacher role.

 

 

291919390_Newtactic.png.13005779083ba9c3e6da92da2aa073ae.png

 

 

Currently playing through a couple of saves with it give it a try and let me know how it works for you!

 

 

4-3-3 Pep Recreation 433 TheCultofFM 2.fmf

 

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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Following on from my comment on the previous page, where I uploaded various pkms of my beloved Schalke carrying out Guardiolae-esque principles of play (see here) I felt it was time for a new challenge. A new environment in a new country. A country where there existed a heavyweight which needed to be toppled, whose financial strength could never be matched. It was time of course, to head to the so-called farmer's league to dethrone the mighty PSG. 

The year was 2022. The team, Lyon. I wasted no time in applying my tactics and buying a couple of players who could carry out my vision for the team. 

image.thumb.png.a53c2c83baf1e892584eca18f1684010.png

 

image.thumb.png.9daf8b93fe81e31182baad287a52f558.png

These are the results of the two seasons I've managed so far. In the first, I also reached the Europa league final but got pumped 5-0 by Arsenal (lol). In my second, as you see here, we managed to outdo our previous record, scoring a mighty 122 goals and only conceding 19. The title race went down to the final day, where a 9-0 win over Strasbourg sealed my 2nd title in a row. PSG were well and truly dethroned. Additionally, we have managed to qualify for the Champions League Final, where premier league winners Manchester United await in 2 weeks time.

image.thumb.png.4c666faf39dd37c1ebc994cc084d5e9a.png

My beloved squad

image.thumb.png.45df4f5002b816e4b17d408686f056e1.png

Possession stats and pass percentage are excellent. I'm also really pleased with the few amounts of goals conceded, combined with our offensive potency. We dominated the competition in almost every attacking statistic, including a hilarious 17 goals from corners (Konate bagged 13 goals)

Almost all my goals were the results of the attacking patterns outlined in my last post. As my players trained and developed, their offensive potency grew to truly scary levels

image.png.d69f86ecaa53bd4b3029286aafc68e1c.png

like this

image.png.8cf629c3d7146741609a3e2be398e6cf.png

or this

 

oimage.png.0e5bffcf7d9126c6bc4577838e846e5c.png

or this!

image.png.592223ede417aac0baace5fa67da7781.png

The TACTIC

As you can see, it's nothing too revolutionary. I used to use a bunch of PI's and TI's. But over the course of my testing, I began to strip down the unnecessary ones, one by one, observing keenly and taking copious notes. What you see here is the final result of hours spent watching full matches and plenty of spent ink on written notes.

What instruction made the biggest difference? 

Without a doubt, whipped crosses. Think again about how Manchester City play. The majority of their crosses (not cutbacks!) are absolutely fizzed into the penalty area at great pace. Principally by Mendy and KDB. These are equivalent to whipped crosses. You don't need jumping reach to get on the end of them. Nor much heading ability. In fact I found the majority of whipped crosses to be drilled at knee height or so. The higher ones would be fizzed right on top of the attackers head, needing only a slight redirection to take it past the keeper.

Secondly, they are so effective because they connect to the foot or head of an onrushing attacker. My players aren't static in the penalty box, often making darting runs into the box just in time to meet the cross at pace. The pace of both ball and man results in a powerful bullet header or half volley that almost always goes in unless it's straight at the keeper or just narrowly goes over. I'm almost tempted to call it broken.

Tsygankov's 25 assists and Aouar's 21 assists were mainly from these whipped crosses.

Other random tidbits

- None of my players in both seasons ever reached 30 goals. The goals were often spread evenly around the team, with six players scoring more than 10 goals this season, and 3 of those scoring 24 (Esposito), 23 (Moukoko) and 21 (Brenner). The spread of goals was delightful and reinforced the fact that this is a fluid, flexible team with varied goalscoring avenues.

- The tactic performs surprisingly well in tough away games as well. During the 2 seasons at Lyon, I only suffered 2 away defeats to juggernauts in France or in Europe (1-2 to PSG and 0-1 vs Monaco). The team was also able to maintain excellent possession and superior XG vs these teams as well. The superb away performances are a major reason the team was able to make Europa league finals in the first season, and the upcoming CL final in the second.

Edited by Ripamon
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1 hour ago, Ripamon said:

Following on from my comment on the previous page, where I uploaded various pkms of my beloved Schalke carrying out Guardiolae-esque principles of play (see here) I felt it was time for a new challenge. A new environment in a new country. A country where there existed a heavyweight which needed to be toppled, whose financial strength could never be matched. It was time of course, to head to the so-called farmer's league to dethrone the mighty PSG. 

The year was 2022. The team, Lyon. I wasted no time in applying my tactics and buying a couple of players who could carry out my vision for the team. 

image.thumb.png.a53c2c83baf1e892584eca18f1684010.png

 

image.thumb.png.9daf8b93fe81e31182baad287a52f558.png

These are the results of the two seasons I've managed so far. In the first, I also reached the Europa league final but got pumped 5-0 by Arsenal (lol). In my second, as you see here, we managed to outdo our previous record, scoring a mighty 122 goals and only conceding 19. The title race went down to the final day, where a 9-0 win over Strasbourg sealed my 2nd title in a row. PSG were well and truly dethroned. Additionally, we have managed to qualify for the Champions League Final, where premier league winners Manchester United await in 2 weeks time.

image.thumb.png.4c666faf39dd37c1ebc994cc084d5e9a.png

My beloved squad

image.thumb.png.45df4f5002b816e4b17d408686f056e1.png

Possession stats and pass percentage are excellent. I'm also really pleased with the few amounts of goals conceded, combined with our offensive potency. We dominated the competition in almost every attacking statistic, including a hilarious 17 goals from corners (Konate bagged 13 goals)

Almost all my goals were the results of the attacking patterns outlined in my last post. As my players trained and developed, their offensive potency grew to truly scary levels

image.png.d69f86ecaa53bd4b3029286aafc68e1c.png

like this

image.png.8cf629c3d7146741609a3e2be398e6cf.png

or this

 

oimage.png.0e5bffcf7d9126c6bc4577838e846e5c.png

or this!

image.png.592223ede417aac0baace5fa67da7781.png

The TACTIC

As you can see, it's nothing too revolutionary. I used to use a bunch of PI's and TI's. But over the course of my testing, I began to strip down the unnecessary ones, one by one, observing keenly and taking copious notes. What you see here is the final result of hours spent watching full matches and plenty of spent ink on written notes.

What instruction made the biggest difference? 

Without a doubt, whipped crosses. Think again about how Manchester City play. The majority of their crosses (not cutbacks!) are absolutely fizzed into the penalty area at great pace. Principally by Mendy and KDB. These are equivalent to whipped crosses. You don't need jumping reach to get on the end of them. Nor much heading ability. In fact I found the majority of whipped crosses to be drilled at knee height or so. The higher ones would be fizzed right on top of the attackers head, needing only a slight redirection to take it past the keeper. Tsygankov's 25 assists and Aouar's 21 assists were mainly from these whipped crosses.

Other random tidbits

- None of my players in both seasons ever reached 30 goals. The goals were often spread evenly around the team, with six players scoring more than 10 goals this season, and 3 of those scoring 24 (Esposito), 23 (Moukoko) and 21 (Brenner). The spread of goals was delightful and reinforced the fact that this is a fluid, flexible team with varied goalscoring avenues.

- The tactic performs surprisingly well in tough away games as well. During the 2 seasons at Lyon, I only suffered 2 away defeats to juggernauts in France or in Europe (1-2 to PSG and 0-1 vs Monaco). The team was also able to maintain excellent possession and superior XG vs these teams as well. The superb away performances are a major reason the team was able to make Europa league finals in the first season, and the upcoming CL final in the second.

Which PI's did you keep/use?

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57 minutes ago, JoOSTAR said:

Which PI's did you keep/use?

LB : Stay Wider 

RM : Stay Wider, Cross From Deep ( encourages inswinging crosses)

DM : Hold position 

LCM : Roam from position ( so he roams to the left flank to help overload. I originally used focus play left but I didn't like that it also drew the striker there)

LW : Get Further Forward, Roam From Position 

That's it 

 

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The Magic Of Pep Style Football

After winning Ligue 1 with a record 100 points and 122 goals scored, it was time to concentrate on the main dish - The Champions League Final. It promised to be a huge challenge. Manchester United had just won the Premier League with a hefty 98 points.

image.png.ea846681dc7fd1556dbc7bc5e0b673c0.png

In preparation for the final, I decided to journey to Old Trafford and spectate their final game of the season, a dead rubber vs the hapless Sheffield United.

I spotted one thing immediately. United attacked with all their players, suffocating their opponents and most importantly, committing their fullbacks high and wide up the pitch. Sheffield neglected to mark these fullbacks, which led to an array of dangerous crosses throughout the match, as the Red Devils always had an outball.

image.thumb.png.99385327ea86af278a49ae71e7662f90.png

 

In order for me to win the final, therefore, I could not allow Manchester United to dominate the flanks. To neutralize them, I used opposition instructions to Close Down both fullbacks, and Show Them Onto Weaker Foot. They could still use clever combination play to find space down the flanks, but my players would never be far behind :

image.png.cb6d629e57503310ac279e8e4361ef01.png 

With the fullbacks neutralized, United posed little attacking threat. It was time to use my carefully constructed triangles to take control of the game and pass Manchester United to death. The Red Devils lined up in their familiar 4-2-3-1, which is nearly impenetrable through the middle. However, this left them relatively light on the flanks and inside channels. And it is there I looked to exploit. Thus, after watching the game for a few minutes, i activated the Play Wider and Focus Play Down Right  team instructions. 

Now my team would look to construct their traingles near the outside of the pitch, out of reach of Uniteds formidable DM's

 

 

We force De Gea into a clearance and calmly build our attack. Gabriel Menino, our RB is able to create a rectangle with the DM, RCM, and RM. Notice how fluidly the RM and RCM swap positions mid-move. The rectangle is eventually expanded to a hexagon, as the LCM and even striker get in on the act, passing and moving. The LW keeps his width but also stays within reasonable distance,  serving as an outball and progressing the attack when he is eventually found. United are reduced to mere training cones as our beautiful structure prevents them from getting near the ball. Eventually, the RCM (Aouar) gets tackled by Pogba just before he can slide a through ball into my RM (Tsyngankov), and the attack comes to nothing. 

Don't think these are just pretty passing triangles either - they're brimming with potential penetration, and this very identical move proves it. Again we are exploiting our opponent's weakness on the flanks, with Menino (our RB) taking advantage of the fact that he's a converted midfielder to weave beautiful combinations around the pitch. He combines excellently with the DM (Tonali), exchanging a series of passes with him until the opponents are tempted towards them. Job done, they switch it out to the right flank, where Tsygankov has held the width patiently. And two clever off the ball runs from his teammates create an ocean of space for him to wave into. 

First, Menino makes a determined run on the overlap, obliging United's left winger to follow him instead of close Tsygankov down. Simultaneously, Aouar makes a piercing inside run, occupying Pogba for a crucial few seconds and allowing Tsygankov to drive freely inside. But thats not all. My LCM, Camavinga refrains from running into the area, offering himself for an easy pass and thereby occupying their RDM, Tielemans. At the same time, a clever decoy run from my Complete Forward, Esposito, drags away the RCB, leaving a chasm of space in the middle. And it is this space that Tsygankov waltzes into to thump an unerring finish into the top corner, and win Lyon the Champions League.

All this without a glut of team instructions. Simply a matter of setting the right roles and duties and exploiting the opponent's weaknesses in their formation. In the end, it was a spectacularly easy final against the best team in the game. A header by Konate from a corner sealed the deal, and Lyon had their first ever Champions League title.

image.thumb.png.79abe500de1d035a9173eebb5f52f498.png

Edited by Ripamon
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Posted (edited)

Finally, and as a bonus, here's a couple of nice inside channel runs by my Mezzala since I know @Cult of Football Manager loves those ;)

 

Kinda looks like KDB's infamous runs, don't you think? Albeit a bit deeper on the pitch. Unfortunately Aouar hasn't got anywhere near as good crossing ability. We did score a couple goals from this pattern of play during the season, but it didnt hit me to record those then.

Edited by Ripamon
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Posted (edited)

Real Sociedad Spanish league winners first season

 

League Table:

1679976965_Screenshot2021-05-14at02_01_20.png.48feef47c11bba362ffa1b14046b0ce6.png

 

1977324769_Screenshot2021-05-14at01_42_51.png.0c1e29c5f210bf6420402da0aba758e8.png

 

 

 

 

Average Possession & Passes completed:

1721731767_Screenshot2021-05-14at02_01_28.png.06c35d7511101889e1d1053148375036.png

 

XG For:

1301684209_Screenshot2021-05-14at02_01_39.png.269dea5444301fdc82c088ad3ae4a7e4.png

 

 

XG Against:

210409884_Screenshot2021-05-14at02_01_52.png.14935f37ceaa9489f772e54d069b030b.png

 

Clear Cut Chances:

1795606545_Screenshot2021-05-14at02_02_06.png.7b52c20fc3cd05423bbfbf1af65a1083.png

 

 

Wow this was and has been the most exhausting process on a game I can remember. I felt my current set up was really close to being a genuinely good tactic and like I mentioned the poacher role really seemed to make it perform even better. Playing as City wasn't going to prove anything so i've spent the last few days playing this save and that's why I've been a little quiet. This title race was also NOT as easy as it appears at the end this was really tense all the way through then at the end we beat all the teams around us and left them behind.

 

I will post a full breakdown and clips later either tomorrow or the day after but like I said anyone on here give that last tactic a try and please give feedback to how it's doing because I seem to be able to work wonders with it with a Europa league team but I haven't tested it much beyond this.

 

Things to remember in my save also:

  • My Manager has UEFA B license & Sunday league footballer to start. You could probably get better results with a higher reputation.
  • My manager also doesn't speak Spanish making it harder also.
  • This is a 100% Legit save and original database in case there were any wondering but hopefully by now you would see I don't gain anything out of beating the system here.

 

Also I'm retiring good luck everyone for the rest of FM2021.

 

Haha only joking. There's still things to improve from a realism and recreation point of view but to have ANY tactic playing ANY football to get 97 points first season with Real Sociedad is simply brilliant. Let alone a Pep recreation and any tactic that keeps possession, isn't on attacking mentality & doesn't have run at defence selected! 

 

4-3-3 Pep Recreation 433 TheCultofFM 2.fmf

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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Main tactic:

 

922627753_Screenshot2021-05-14at02_36_05.png.3a89867f591141e374e03062de7ba34d.png

4-3-3 Pep Recreation 433 TheCultofFM Real Sociedad.fmf

 

Again here this tactic is designed to work with a DLF-A and it plays better as a recreation with a DLF-A. You get the closest thing I've ever seen to Pep style combinations and movements and if you have a top team I would go for that for the realism and recreation. 

But the tactic overall isn't as good & the tactic is better weirdly as a poacher. In short the poacher threatens in behind with his runs dragging their defence back and then space for the mezzala's and winger's or gets played in behind himself. 

 

Defensive tactic to see out a game when leading by 1 goal :

 

1556745329_Screenshot2021-05-14at02_36_13.png.71dd6b6bbc5b0f21c5d79c852103cd73.png

 

4-3-3 Pep Recreation 433 TheCultofFM Real Sociedad Def.fmf

 

 

 

Attacking tactic to get a goal:

 

1091518706_Screenshot2021-05-14at02_36_20.png.45be51e64d0b44056a7a9a52490828ba.png

 

4-3-3 Pep Recreation 433 TheCultofFM Real Sociedad ATT.fmf

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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Posted (edited)

@Cult of Football ManagerYou used a Poacher as central striker in 4-3-3 possession tactic? With no support from AMC position or partner striker? Wow sometimes I am really surprised by what works and why it does in this game. Still great achievement and congrats. Just makes no sense to me tactically :eek:

Edited by crusadertsar
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10 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

@Cult of Football ManagerYou used a Poacher as central striker in 4-3-3 possession tactic? With no support from AMC position or partner striker? Wow sometimes I am really surprised by what works and why it does in this game. Still great achievement and congrats. Just makes no sense to me tactically :eek:

Not at first it was a DLF-A! It wasn't by design and it was actually the very last role I used. I used every single  ( and i mean that literally ) role and duty for the striker before this one as I wanted to just test how the striker roles and duties worked with the rest of the tactic staying exactly the same as I was getting my patterns and combinations with the rest of it. 

The thing is he (poacher) will still get it played into his feet and link up like the DLF or any striker role does ( at least in this tactic ) when we get into their half with the ball. When we build up possession it seems like the first third when we have the ball and we're building, he's looking only for a ball in behind and it causes chaos for their backline who either drop with him leaving space in front or he gets it in behind. This is both the issue but also what seemed to make it work even better in terms of results.

Yeah well there you go FM summed up I guess.

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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9 hours ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

Not at first it was a DLF-A! It wasn't by design and it was actually the very last role I used. I used every single  ( and i mean that literally ) role and duty for the striker before this one as I wanted to just test how the striker roles and duties worked with the rest of the tactic staying exactly the same as I was getting my patterns and combinations with the rest of it. 

The thing is he (poacher) will still get it played into his feet and link up like the DLF or any striker role does ( at least in this tactic ) when we get into their half with the ball. When we build up possession it seems like the first third when we have the ball and we're building, he's looking only for a ball in behind and it causes chaos for their backline who either drop with him leaving space in front or he gets it in behind. This is both the issue but also what seemed to make it work even better in terms of results.

Yeah well there you go FM summed up I guess.

The Poacher is an odd role because, more than any other, he's defined by what he doesn't do, rather than what he does.

An AF tries to run in behind and work the channels. F9 and DLF(S) drop off,  link play and perhaps run at the defence as well. CF(S) (and Trequartista) roams everywhere and tries to do a bit of everything. CF(A) tries everything a CF(S) does, and tries to run in behind as well. TMs are ball magnets.

Whereas a Poacher? He's not roaming. He's not running the channels. He's not playing killer balls. He's not a ball magnet like a playmaker or a TM.

So, having described what he doesn't do, what does he do? He takes up the position that's most threatening to the goal and forces the defenders to defend him. If they switch off or go chasing someone else, then they're in trouble. Other roles move away from this position. They might pull defenders with them, or find space, but in doing so they're no-longer threatening the goal.

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24 minutes ago, Beerwulf42 said:

The Poacher is an odd role because, more than any other, he's defined by what he doesn't do, rather than what he does.

An AF tries to run in behind and work the channels. F9 and DLF(S) drop off,  link play and perhaps run at the defence as well. CF(S) (and Trequartista) roams everywhere and tries to do a bit of everything. CF(A) tries everything a CF(S) does, and tries to run in behind as well. TMs are ball magnets.

Whereas a Poacher? He's not roaming. He's not running the channels. He's not playing killer balls. He's not a ball magnet like a playmaker or a TM.

So, having described what he doesn't do, what does he do? He takes up the position that's most threatening to the goal and forces the defenders to defend him. If they switch off or go chasing someone else, then they're in trouble. Other roles move away from this position. They might pull defenders with them, or find space, but in doing so they're no-longer threatening the goal.

How does the pressing forward (attack) move, when his team has possession? 

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20 hours ago, Ripamon said:

Following on from my comment on the previous page, where I uploaded various pkms of my beloved Schalke carrying out Guardiolae-esque principles of play (see here) I felt it was time for a new challenge. A new environment in a new country. A country where there existed a heavyweight which needed to be toppled, whose financial strength could never be matched. It was time of course, to head to the so-called farmer's league to dethrone the mighty PSG. 

The year was 2022. The team, Lyon. I wasted no time in applying my tactics and buying a couple of players who could carry out my vision for the team. 

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These are the results of the two seasons I've managed so far. In the first, I also reached the Europa league final but got pumped 5-0 by Arsenal (lol). In my second, as you see here, we managed to outdo our previous record, scoring a mighty 122 goals and only conceding 19. The title race went down to the final day, where a 9-0 win over Strasbourg sealed my 2nd title in a row. PSG were well and truly dethroned. Additionally, we have managed to qualify for the Champions League Final, where premier league winners Manchester United await in 2 weeks time.

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My beloved squad

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Possession stats and pass percentage are excellent. I'm also really pleased with the few amounts of goals conceded, combined with our offensive potency. We dominated the competition in almost every attacking statistic, including a hilarious 17 goals from corners (Konate bagged 13 goals)

Almost all my goals were the results of the attacking patterns outlined in my last post. As my players trained and developed, their offensive potency grew to truly scary levels

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like this

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or this

 

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or this!

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The TACTIC

As you can see, it's nothing too revolutionary. I used to use a bunch of PI's and TI's. But over the course of my testing, I began to strip down the unnecessary ones, one by one, observing keenly and taking copious notes. What you see here is the final result of hours spent watching full matches and plenty of spent ink on written notes.

What instruction made the biggest difference? 

Without a doubt, whipped crosses. Think again about how Manchester City play. The majority of their crosses (not cutbacks!) are absolutely fizzed into the penalty area at great pace. Principally by Mendy and KDB. These are equivalent to whipped crosses. You don't need jumping reach to get on the end of them. Nor much heading ability. In fact I found the majority of whipped crosses to be drilled at knee height or so. The higher ones would be fizzed right on top of the attackers head, needing only a slight redirection to take it past the keeper.

Secondly, they are so effective because they connect to the foot or head of an onrushing attacker. My players aren't static in the penalty box, often making darting runs into the box just in time to meet the cross at pace. The pace of both ball and man results in a powerful bullet header or half volley that almost always goes in unless it's straight at the keeper or just narrowly goes over. I'm almost tempted to call it broken.

Tsygankov's 25 assists and Aouar's 21 assists were mainly from these whipped crosses.

Other random tidbits

- None of my players in both seasons ever reached 30 goals. The goals were often spread evenly around the team, with six players scoring more than 10 goals this season, and 3 of those scoring 24 (Esposito), 23 (Moukoko) and 21 (Brenner). The spread of goals was delightful and reinforced the fact that this is a fluid, flexible team with varied goalscoring avenues.

- The tactic performs surprisingly well in tough away games as well. During the 2 seasons at Lyon, I only suffered 2 away defeats to juggernauts in France or in Europe (1-2 to PSG and 0-1 vs Monaco). The team was also able to maintain excellent possession and superior XG vs these teams as well. The superb away performances are a major reason the team was able to make Europa league finals in the first season, and the upcoming CL final in the second.

 

 

@Ripamon I've finally got some time here so thought I'd reply properly.

First of all great post love the detail you've shown here! your tactic is interesting and i'm pleased you got something working I much prefer your right side to your left side but I can see why the left side balances the tactic out well in the match engine!

The only thing I question is do you really think whipped crosses made such a difference? I use low crosses in nearly all my tactics because i've found players seem to mix their crosses up anyway no matter what you select which I think someone mentioned in this thread earlier? Lots of my goals from crosses are my RW or LB who absolutely fizzes them to the near post and we score from the striker or CM.

Some great results in europe too congratulations on that!

 

15 hours ago, Ripamon said:

Finally, and as a bonus, here's a couple of nice inside channel runs by my Mezzala since I know @Cult of Football Manager loves those ;)

 

Kinda looks like KDB's infamous runs, don't you think? Albeit a bit deeper on the pitch. Unfortunately Aouar hasn't got anywhere near as good crossing ability. We did score a couple goals from this pattern of play during the season, but it didnt hit me to record those then.

 

 

Haha I do love those! It's great to see them come out here and not surprisingly on the right side great stuff mate! I haven't recorded anything as I went either so I need to go back and record & clip everything so hopefully I have some examples. It definitely seems to work well with a DLF/CF-A, IW, Mez & IWB combination.

 

 

 

Great stuff in the CL final. Playing against united is hard as they are very good on the counter especially season one. Where was Rashford in season 3 was he on the bench or has he gone? & was Ole still their manager?

Brilliant that you actually attended their last match too haha! Seems like you tactically destroyed them and congratulations on your Champions League win!

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

 

 

@Ripamon I've finally got some time here so thought I'd reply properly.

First of all great post love the detail you've shown here! your tactic is interesting and i'm pleased you got something working I much prefer your right side to your left side but I can see why the left side balances the tactic out well in the match engine!

The only thing I question is do you really think whipped crosses made such a difference? I use low crosses in nearly all my tactics because i've found players seem to mix their crosses up anyway no matter what you select which I think someone mentioned in this thread earlier? Lots of my goals from crosses are my RW or LB who absolutely fizzes them to the near post and we score from the striker or CM.

Some great results in europe too congratulations on that!

 

 

 

Haha I do love those! It's great to see them come out here and not surprisingly on the right side great stuff mate! I haven't recorded anything as I went either so I need to go back and record & clip everything so hopefully I have some examples. It definitely seems to work well with a DLF/CF-A, IW, Mez & IWB combination.

 

 

 

Great stuff in the CL final. Playing against united is hard as they are very good on the counter especially season one. Where was Rashford in season 3 was he on the bench or has he gone? & was Ole still their manager?

Brilliant that you actually attended their last match too haha! Seems like you tactically destroyed them and congratulations on your Champions League win!

Cheers mate. Somehow this Lyon save has turned out to my most entertaining in FM21 so far. I just wanted to use it for testing at first and then got so invested haha. They're an amazing team.

Ole's still here of course, gotta say I've never seen him sacked in any save I've played this year haha. The Match engine seems to like his style. And yeah Rashford got sold to Barca for £90m. Which worked out well for me as Sabitzer was utter tosh on the right flank for them.

Hmm the crossing question is a good one. Incidentally I was the one who made the comment you were referring to about how they'd often choose the most appropriate type of cross even if low was selected, for example. That was when I was experimenting on mixed crosses.

But I noticed one thing when I had low crossing on... Although it may also be placebo. 

1)  less crosses from deep. Players were a bit more likely to pass it off when in ideal deep crossing positions, especially my wingbacks. Maybe they lacked the flair or technique to regularly decide to fizz in a low cross from deep? Usually they'd just pass it off in these positions to someone like the LCM who did have these attributes. Basically I'm saying players seem to fish more for a better opportunity to send in a low cross than they do otherwise. Which is probably a good thing depending on your viewpoint 

2) The resulting shots often hitting defenders shins. After playing with low crosses for so long I began to notice the amount of them that would be crossed low into the packed box and then see the shot blocked by the defenders foot. It's always a highlight too because its essentially a clear cut chance or high XG, so we see a lot of it. Then I thought about it this way - which is more annoying? For a shot from a low cross to hit the defenders shins or for your striker to head a bullet cross over the bar? I think for most of us it's the latter, and I'm no exception, which is why the majority is biased towards low crosses. But then I also realized that on balance, the bullet cross is probably a higher probability chance when sent into a packed box, because the resulting shot/header is less likely to be blocked.

Of course this may be 100% placebo but then I did score 97 goals in my first season on low crosses, and 122 in my second season when I used whipped crosses. 

 

Edited by Ripamon
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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Ripamon said:

Cheers mate. Somehow this Lyon save has turned out to my most entertaining in FM21 so far. I just wanted to use it for testing at first and then got so invested haha. They're an amazing team.

Ole's still here of course, gotta say I've never seen him sacked in any save I've played this year haha. The Match engine seems to like his style. And yeah Rashford got sold to Barca for £90m. Which worked out well for me as Sabitzer was utter tosh on the right flank for them.

Hmm the crossing question is a good one. Incidentally I was the one who made the comment you were referring to about how they'd often choose the most appropriate type of cross even if low was selected, for example. That was when I was experimenting on mixed crosses.

But I noticed one thing when I had low crossing on... Although it may also be placebo. 

1)  less crosses from deep. Players were a bit more likely to pass it off when in ideal deep crossing positions, especially my wingbacks. Maybe they lacked the flair or technique to regularly decide to fizz in a low cross from deep? Usually they'd just pass it off in these positions to someone like the LCM who did have these attributes. Basically I'm saying players seem to fish more for a better opportunity to send in a low cross than they do otherwise. Which is probably a good thing depending on your viewpoint 

2) The resulting shots often hitting defenders shins. After playing with low crosses for so long I began to notice the amount of them that would be crossed low into the packed box and then see the shot blocked by the defenders foot. It's always a highlight too because its essentially a clear cut chance or high XG, so we see a lot of it. Then I thought about it this way - which is more annoying? For a shot from a low cross to hit the defenders shins or for your striker to head a bullet cross over the bar? I think for most of us it's the latter, and I'm no exception, which is why the majority is biased towards low crosses. But then I also realized that on balance, the bullet cross is probably a higher probability chance when sent into a packed box, because the resulting shot/header is less likely to be blocked.

Of course this may be 100% placebo but then I did score 97 goals in my first season on low crosses, and 122 in my second season when I used whipped crosses. 

 

 

Haha yeah Ole on the counter on FM is really annoying playing as City i've been caught a few times against his teams when he has Martial, Greenwood, Rashford and then he loves to sign Boga too ... they just set up perfectly to beat my tactic playing as City in a big derby game. I hope to get them in my Sociedad save next season when I get round to playing it.

I unfortunately have nothing to contribute in terms of European performance as I played an entire back up team in every single Europa League game with Sociedad and we got knocked out in the Quarter finals by Lazio ( The title race was still close at this point ).

 

Really interesting stuff thanks for your contribution to the thread mate it's great to hear and see and exactly what I wanted the thread to be here for. I will look at this and look to switch the crossing and see what it throws up. I do agree with what you're saying about those highlights I've had them a few times but also where it's done that but then put in by someone else in the box so i'm afraid to ruin my Sociedad save maybe my Boston save I can test it out on!

 

I also missed the goals part at the end, surely though here your team also got better though right from season 2 to season 3 so that could have played a factor in goals scored?

 

in either case I'll look to test it out and see what it changes in my tactic and report back!

 

 

 

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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4 minutes ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

 

Haha yeah Ole on the counter on FM is really annoying playing as City i've been caught a few times against his teams when he has Martial, Greenwood, Rashford and then he loves to sign Boga too ... they just set up perfectly to beat my tactic playing as City in a big derby game. I hope to get them in my Sociedad save next season when I get round to playing it.

I unfortunately have nothing to contribute in terms of European performance as I played an entire back up team in every single Europa League game with Sociedad and we got knocked out in the Quarter finals by Lazio ( The title race was still close at this point ).

 

Really interesting stuff thanks for your contribution to the thread mate it's great to hear and see and exactly what I wanted the thread to be here for. I will look at this and look to switch the crossing and see what it throws up. I do agree with what you're saying about those highlights I've had them a few times but also where it's done that but then put in by someone else in the box so i'm afraid to ruin my Sociedad save maybe my Boston save I can test it out on!

 

I also missed the goals part at the end, surely though here your team also got better though right from season 2 to season 3 so that could have played a factor in goals scored?

 

in either case I'll look to test it out and see what it changes in my tactic and report back!

 

 

 

Of course mate, this thread has been a breath of fresh air. It's taught me a lot as well, and many others I'm sure. I actually don't think it's left the front  page since your very first post haha. Everyone is truly fascinated by Guardiola.

The other thing I'd say is I feel his style of play is something one can't just theorize and translate into the match engine first try. Even if you know exactly what you want, the match engine still has many weird kinks that have to be planned around (like these inside channel runs for example. How hard have we tried to make them work? Or the width conundrum haha) and that can only be done through lots of testing and watching your team. 

So I think you've gotten really close and I can't wait to try out your latest version. Your achievement is absolutely fantastic and I think you more than probably anyone else has gotten closest to actually achieving a near complete iteration. 

Oh and yes I also agree the increase of goals definitely has to do with my players getting better, especially as a lot of them are the usual FM wonderkids and I'm pretty good at training at this point. I've ironically just accepted the man city job so I'll be moving there from Lyon. I'll be paying more attention to whipped crosses and will try to find out if it's truly more effective, though I suspect it really is haha 

Your achievement with la Real is truly glorious by the way, very well played on your part and I'm sure it was great fun too 

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Re: crossing, it's contextual for me. You use mixed or the specific style appropriate for the sort of people who are going to be (potentially) on the receiving end. In my Coruna save, the guy who leads my line is an insane player -probably in the 190s for CA- but he's like 5'7 and has a jumping reach of 8 (and honestly the wide players coming in at the far post aren't much better). Anything other than low crosses is going to lead to a whole lot of nothing. 

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18 minutes ago, Ripamon said:

Of course mate, this thread has been a breath of fresh air. It's taught me a lot as well, and many others I'm sure. I actually don't think it's left the front  page since your very first post haha. Everyone is truly fascinated by Guardiola.

The other thing I'd say is I feel his style of play is something one can't just theorize and translate into the match engine first try. Even if you know exactly what you want, the match engine still has many weird kinks that have to be planned around (like these inside channel runs for example. How hard have we tried to make them work? Or the width conundrum haha) and that can only be done through lots of testing and watching your team. 

So I think you've gotten really close and I can't wait to try out your latest version. Your achievement is absolutely fantastic and I think you more than probably anyone else has gotten closest to actually achieving a near complete iteration. 

Oh and yes I also agree the increase of goals definitely has to do with my players getting better, especially as a lot of them are the usual FM wonderkids and I'm pretty good at training at this point. I've ironically just accepted the man city job so I'll be moving there from Lyon. I'll be paying more attention to whipped crosses and will try to find out if it's truly more effective, though I suspect it really is haha 

Your achievement with la Real is truly glorious by the way, very well played on your part and I'm sure it was great fun too 

 

Thanks mate I really appreciate that and i'm glad it has helped in any way possible! This was always meant to be a thread for the Community and fans of FM. I was just as happy getting to the conclusion myself or if someone posts tomorrow no worries cult and ripamon i've got it here's 38 Wins, 70% average possession and every pattern you could possibly want.

Yes exactly I 100% agree and couldn't agree more with your second paragraph you've wonderfully described everything I think there. It's one thing to know exactly what you want and what you think should be the right settings and roles/duties for your vision. It's another thing it playing out the same way in the match engine!

 

Thank you mate well you aren't exactly much further off and I know you aren't specifically trying to create the EXACT things I am so it's a little different but lots of similar principles in our tactics that are both getting great results & great Pep like football!

The DLF-A version is definitely very close it just doesn't perform quite as well as the poacher BUT it should still be good enough for top sides which is really what it's designed for. But i haven't tested it much so if people are downloading it and trying it out let us know how you're getting on!

 

Thank you mate I really appreciate I can't say it was completely with the Real Sociedad orignal team, like your Lyon I made a few transfers but didn't do any transfer business that nobody else could do playing as Real Sociedad! 

And your success is brilliant too mate that many goals and possession is brilliant along with European success!

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38 minutes ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

Re: crossing, it's contextual for me. You use mixed or the specific style appropriate for the sort of people who are going to be (potentially) on the receiving end. In my Coruna save, the guy who leads my line is an insane player -probably in the 190s for CA- but he's like 5'7 and has a jumping reach of 8 (and honestly the wide players coming in at the far post aren't much better). Anything other than low crosses is going to lead to a whole lot of nothing. 

If he's got good Anticipation, Off the Ball,  Acceleration, Agility and Technique, then whipped crosses may well work for you.

Fire them in and see who reacts first.

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12 minutes ago, Beerwulf42 said:

If he's got good Anticipation, Off the Ball,  Acceleration, Agility and Technique, then whipped crosses may well work for you.

Fire them in and see who reacts first.

Absolutely. It's hardly ever even a duel nor does he often need to jump. Literally lands on his head or knee height for him to slam it in on the volley 

Having said that they're also the most technically demanding cross to deliver accurately, so it's a good idea to train the crossing individual focus and move your fullbacks to the attacking unit, or at the very least, regularly train attacking overlaps 

Edited by Ripamon
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I haven't really given whipped crosses much consideration, in part because low crosses works fine for the style and personnel (currently sitting on a mish mash tactic influenced by both Pep's Barca and City) but also I've had the impression it whipped works better when you're doing stuff like hitting in early crosses, essentially when there is space behind the defenders to utilise the aforementioned attributes. That could just be a misconception born from lack of use admittedly.

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28 minutes ago, poobington said:

@Cult of Football Manager Is this all using the main tactic? Impressive stuff to only concede 4 goals!

I switch to my defensive set up that I posed above if i'm only one goal up around 80 minutes. More often then not we're two goals up so I don't use it!

We had a TERRIBLE January and I sold my best player to PSG for £80M as he was just recovering from 3 months out and his stats dropped a little but looking back I probably should have kept him. I'll update with screenshots when season is over.

 

Liverpool knocked us out on away goals which is amazing because we were in absolutely terrible form in and around the two legs !

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@Cult of Football ManagerAre there any specific attribute criteria for players to play in this system? I have had a go trialing it with Leeds, as I thought out of the teams outside of the Europa places they looked to have the squad best suited to this style. Essentially just holidayed out of curiosity. Finished 13th, with some good performances by Bamford in the poacher role grabbing 18 goals. I am going to give it another go for a season having signed some players to boost the rotational options.

When it works it works brilliantly, with excellent football. But against the top teams it does sometimes end in a drubbing.

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8 hours ago, poobington said:

@Cult of Football ManagerAre there any specific attribute criteria for players to play in this system? I have had a go trialing it with Leeds, as I thought out of the teams outside of the Europa places they looked to have the squad best suited to this style. Essentially just holidayed out of curiosity. Finished 13th, with some good performances by Bamford in the poacher role grabbing 18 goals. I am going to give it another go for a season having signed some players to boost the rotational options.

When it works it works brilliantly, with excellent football. But against the top teams it does sometimes end in a drubbing.

Yeah I should probably have mentioned this already. The tactic isn't designed and doesn't play well as a test tactic on holiday mode. Playing it normally it works as i've shown but like any tactic that isn't a super plug and play tactic a number of factors can effect how strongly it starts for you in a save.

I've spoken with @knap lots about this and we've seen in testing in holiday mode the tactic doesn't seem to do as well and can throw up random results. We had a relegation battler finish 4th and a title challenger finish 3rd way off the pace & a mid table team finish bottom half all in the same test save!

 

In terms of player profiles the only thing I can say is if you're looking at two players and they're both close in ability I always go for a quicker player as I feel pace and acceleration are still massively important in FM with most tactics. But for a couple of specifics just from stuff i've noticed & observed:

  • The RB in particular in this tactic is important to be quick for your level of football. What I mean is he doesn't have to have 18's for pace and acceleration 12 might be perfectly acceptable it depends on your league. I notice playing as City walker is just as good for me in that role as Cancelo but not in the same way. Cancelo is much better in possession but that extra pace Walker has helps so much more in transition when we lose the ball and he's sprinting back into position. Even more so when it's a winger that has 18 acceleration and 17 dribbling that is getting the ball for the opposition on the counter. 
  • The RCB, Because he's next to the IWB-A he normally is the one that has more space to cover and might have to engage a player with little to no cover if that IWB-A isn't back on the counter. Because of this regardless of what side my CB prefers I put the quickest one here ( Unless they're left footed ). Dias is such a good player in so many other areas he's normally fine but most of us have to pick players that aren't nearly great at everything! 
  • CM's, So far with Sociedad having a left footed LCM and right footed RCM seems to work a little better but it could be a placebo effect on me from ignoring other factors. The LCM being left footed normally is with a LW who is right footed so maybe it's to do with that? 

 

Yeah I can see how that might happen I haven't played as a relegation or mid table team yet I mean like I said before don't forget Pep hasn't shown us himself how that would work yet so I suppose it's hard to compare your success and results to anything!

I've watched his City team get done conceding 4 twice in the last few years to lesser opposition & as much as I love analysing him and his stuff every type of football is flawed in some way!

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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