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Manchester City Pep Guardiola Analysis and Tactical Recreation


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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, michael_richie0 said:

is really the best I have read in this forum, so detailed, so enjoyable, I'm excited about it, you actually made me personally love the game even more,

Congratulations

Thank you ! That's brilliant to hear I'm genuinely happy to hear this thank you for your kind comments and i hope your save is going well!

 

14 hours ago, Bailey1 said:

Cool looking forward to reading the update!

It is hard to get it to work, think I may just stay with the half back to kind of get a back 3 sometimes.

At the moment I’m using a winger and a raumdeuter with a false 9 up top. Still playing around with the inverted winger though so not set on anything yet!

 

Yes have you tried off setting him to one side? HB in the "LCDM" spot and a inverted wing back at right back? That's something on my list to try not not a HB maybe a DLP D or something like that. The problem is i find whenever i do that with any tactic the AI seem to work out you're not balanced and i leak chances and goals.

 

12 hours ago, JoOSTAR said:

Ow my bad, I didn't mention I was playing with Chelsea :D

I'm in my first season and I started playing your tactic after 6 games (2 wins 4 draws), Now I'm 22 games in, 16 wins and 6 draws, which means I won 14 games and draw 2 with your tactic.

 

 

Ah that's brilliant I hope it continues really interested to hear how it ends for you!  If i went a goal down which was rare with the final tactic but it happened in a cup final, I put width up one, tempo up one & Passing up one. That seemed to do it and got me a goal more often then not on it's own.

 

11 hours ago, latrell said:

Really looking forward to the next update i am obsessed with this thread right now enjoying reading how other people are getting on as well with different teams.

Thanks Latrell! 

Yes me too! I would be over the moon if people were posting their saves and achieving great success with different teams. I've always found possession tactics harder to get teams to overachieve so it will be interesting. I really expected you'd beed one of the top few teams in the world ( whoever that is whatever year your save is in ) to make this work but @JoOSTAR has potentially disputed that!

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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Reading with interest.  I've been working in a similar way to you.  Our TI's seem to be largely the same.  Mine is based on a recent game where Cancelo was reverted back to starting at left back.  What i've focussed on is hoe the back 3 (5) set up.  In that game Dias was the central CB, Stones on the right, bringing the ball out, Walker as RB and Cancelo LB.  Walker stayed back a lot - occasionally moving forward on dummy runs.  The Dias / Stones pairing space equally as Cancelo moves into his IWB role. 

When I've used a FB(d) as the "Walker Role" in that game it doesn't quite work.  So I've played at manipulating how the game mechanisms work.  When a IWB is used with a double pivot they generally stay wide - cutting inside occasioanlly.  Also, when using a Half Back the CD's spread wider.  I've combined this...

Fica.PNG.a897fdc8af1c19eae6e35a33585737ac.PNG

 

Ferro is asked to Stay Wider and Dribble More.

Dias is asked to Hold Position.

Rafa is asked to Get Forward and Cross From Byline.

 

The Half Back role maybe stays too deep in playing out (?) but I like how it still forms a 433 in playing out with Grimaldo forming a midfield 3 with Gabriel and Samaris and then Luis moving forward to create a diamond / rhomboid and a narrow 3-4-3 and double pivot of Luis and Grimaldo.  There appears to be no negatives defensively with the Half Back being off-set.

Tavares still occasionally overlaps and bombs forward on dummy runs, but usually stays back and forms the line of 3 in Defence and sometimes midfield as he cannot move into the usual IWB position due to the Half Backs presence.  He sits narrow and forms a nice back 3 line.

 

I feel that this is the closest I've gotten to recreating the past month or so of Peps Man City.  He seems to be more settled forming a 3-2-5 (3-2-1-4) as it gives a little more defensive stability than the 2-3-5 he used in 2020.

 

I'm at work so cant supply in-game screenshots but can later. 

Let me know what you think?

 

Edited by Lordluap
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15 minutes ago, Lordluap said:

Reading with interest.  I've been working in a similar way to you.  Our TI's seem to be largely the same.  Mine is based on a recent game where Cancelo was reverted back to starting at left back.  What i've focussed on is hoe the back 3 (5) set up.  In that game Dias was the central CB, Stones on the right, bringing the ball out, Walker as RB and Cancelo LB.  Walker stayed back a lot - occasionally moving forward on dummy runs.  The Dias / Stones pairing space equally as Cancelo moves into his IWB role. 

When I've used a FB(d) as the "Walker Role" in that game it doesn't quite work.  So I've played at manipulating how the game mechanisms work.  When a IWB is used with a double pivot they generally stay wide - cutting inside occasioanlly.  Also, when using a Half Back the CD's spread wider.  I've combined this...

Fica.PNG.a897fdc8af1c19eae6e35a33585737ac.PNG

 

Ferro is asked to Stay Wider and Dribble More.

Dias is asked to Hold Position.

Rafa is asked to Get Forward and Cross From Byline.

 

The Half Back role maybe stays too deep in playing out (?) but I like how it still forms a 433 in playing out with Grimaldo forming a midfield 3 with Gabriel and Samaris and then Luis moving forward to create a diamond / rhomboid and a narrow 3-4-3 and double pivot of Luis and Grimaldo.  There appears to be no negatives defensively with the Half Back being off-set.

Tavares still occasionally overlaps and bombs forward on dummy runs, but usually stays back and forms the line of 3 in Defence and sometimes midfield as he cannot move into the usual IWB position due to the Half Backs presence.  He sits narrow and forms a nice back 3 line.

 

I feel that this is the closest I've gotten to recreating the past month or so of Peps Man City.  He seems to be more settled forming a 3-2-5 (3-2-1-4) as it gives a little more defensive stability than the 2-3-5 he used in 2020.

 

I'm at work so cant supply in-game screenshots but can later. 

Let me know what you think?

 

Love this! What's funny is I literally just recommended trying this regarding a IWB & offset HB  to someone probably posting it as you typed this! 

I see your playing as Benfica? Do you get exposed defensively at all in the "LCDM" area at all against good teams in Europe? Maybe it's psychological but whenever I have my back 4 out of line or playing one CDM to one side, that the AI do a good job of exploiting it and therefore decreasing the level of the tactic itself. If not then great I will look at this it's already one of my things to try in what will be my last post on what i've done so far, then the rest will be in real time with everyone else.

 

Ok that's interesting so the LIWB with the RCDM HB stays very wide in the build up is that what you're saying?

Yeah It's very hard to replicate it perfectly like you said in the Everton game with Cancelo at LB & Walker at RB walker played a safer role but then also in one of my clips in my analysis he's playing in the front line against their back 4 in a particular moment!

No that's fantastic and any in game footage or images will be great. I'm assuming you're dominating your league as benfica? They've been incredibly well set up for years on FM! Have you tried with anyone else or found or is this your first save doing this?

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2 minutes ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

Love this! What's funny is I literally just recommended trying this regarding a IWB & offset HB  to someone probably posting it as you typed this! 

I see your playing as Benfica? Do you get exposed defensively at all in the "LCDM" area at all against good teams in Europe? Maybe it's psychological but whenever I have my back 4 out of line or playing one CDM to one side, that the AI do a good job of exploiting it and therefore decreasing the level of the tactic itself. If not then great I will look at this it's already one of my things to try in what will be my last post on what i've done so far, then the rest will be in real time with everyone else.

 

Ok that's interesting so the LIWB with the RCDM HB stays very wide in the build up is that what you're saying?

Yeah It's very hard to replicate it perfectly like you said in the Everton game with Cancelo at LB & Walker at RB walker played a safer role but then also in one of my clips in my analysis he's playing in the front line against their back 4 in a particular moment!

No that's fantastic and any in game footage or images will be great. I'm assuming you're dominating your league as benfica? They've been incredibly well set up for years on FM! Have you tried with anyone else or found or is this your first save doing this?

Yes I saw that! Funny how we posted at the same time.

What I'm saying regarding the HB / RIWB(d) is that the presence of the HB prevents the RIWB(d) from sitting narrow as they normally would / as they do in your tactics.  They sit back and kind of halfway between a normal FB(d) and IWB(d) position.  The LIWB(s) acts normally as Cancelo would.  I'll post screenshots later tonight.

I'm not actually playing as Benfica - I just had that at work so set it up as I play at home.  I'm with Man City in 2028 at home - having just taken over.  Pep left a terrible mess with the team and laying in 6th in the table and I only have one experienced CD and so I'm using either Declan RIce or Sandro Tonali as a CB!  We concede very few goals though.  The HB does cover well centrally in Defence and in defensive transition the LIWB covers it well too.  I'm not top of the table towards the end of the season.

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1 hour ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

Yes have you tried off setting him to one side? HB in the "LCDM" spot and a inverted wing back at right back? That's something on my list to try not not a HB maybe a DLP D or something like that. The problem is i find whenever i do that with any tactic the AI seem to work out you're not balanced and i leak chances and goals

I’ll give that a try tonight, thanks for the suggestion. Yeah it’s hard to get the balance right!

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This is the formation i have gone with i am just starting my season with the same instructions as Cult of Football Manager.

Screenshot (1).png

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Very early days but my God the football is amazing the shape in play and the link ups are looking amazing possession is really good to. 

Screenshot (3).png

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Liverpool H: The game that changed the tactic.

So going into this game I had some ideas that after the united game that i had tested in the cup game between the united game and this game.

We are at Home and if this tactic with these tweaks are going to work I expect to do well here. Either win with some teething problems and if not win then draw with lots of positives and generally dominate the game.

 

Changes to Tactic before the game:

1910832264_Screenshot2021-03-02at13_22_13.png.0156990624afc2c4d07a394e0959f0d1.png

 

Now I know this looks ridiculous in hindsight. But hear me out here. To set the scene I started the save late, it's now early hours of the morning at this point and my patience is getting a little low.

The Idea was by having the IRWB so high is that maybe this would push KDB higher by his presence in a more advanced starting position. Also with Sterling now deeper I was hoping that maybe with these 3 so close together we might see them even play the "roles" rather than their "positions" and get some of the football from the analysis section coming out here.

I went with W - A for sterling because W - S was working well on the left hand side. I didn't want Sterling to also be a support mainly due to the fact my LW wasn't getting into as threatening areas as i'd like but that could have been because of Bernardo SIlva's role. Whatever the specifics of it I also don't want my entire front 3 on support duties as a matter of personal preference and experience in doing that on previous FM's and creating a toothless possession based tactic.  I liked the false 9 role at this point too so didn't really consider changing that although i did play around with Complete forward - S and DLF - S in some of the cup & CL games.

 

 

At a glance:

124098406_Screenshot2021-02-28at14_34_56.png.d545291374102c165bcc0dc2fd2db65e.png

 

We were extremely extremely poor. I was very frustrated & demoralised with this game. All of the previous building blocks seemed to go away. We didn't control the game, and at this point i'm asking myself is it a tactic that just doesn't work well enough and you have to have extremely good players and be better then the opposition to make it successful? 

I mean Only 334  Passes completed with only 382 attempted. 87% of Passes completed and only one more than liverpool at home. I dreaded to think the battering we were going to take against top sides away from home. 

We were 2-1 Down and for the second time already this season I had to change the tactic to get a goal to save a game in which we were extremely poor.

Average Positions

158386382_Screenshot2021-03-02at13_00_48.png.fef4838367077810287fd8b3669c2651.png

 

It's even worse then before with the CM - A and IWB A now playing in the same space. Clearly the move of the IWB didn't push the CM forwards at all. Now lets look at some clips.

 

Clip 1

 

 

Here we have a situation where we keep the ball well & go back to the centre backs. At this point both the RCM & RB are marked centrally leaving a passing lane to sterling. My CB decides that this isn't for him and plays it long to the striker.

Image:

 

20432749_Screenshot2021-03-02at15_13_34.png.d2d1ce4fa96e206df6dea0116d7c6c60.png

 

Here if Sterling out of shot just moved down a few steps we could get the ball to him and he can progress at the back 4 and have supporting runs ahead of him.

 

Clip 2:

Here is actually our goal but I don't take many positives from how it happened. 

it starts off well with the LW holding his width and getting on the ball outside of the back 4 and dragging the full back to him. The LCM makes a run and doesn't get the ball it's then played to the LB. It's eventually played to the right hand side where we score. Lets have a look at it.

 

1. 

585068606_Screenshot2021-03-02at15_24_18.png.3aab30aece6b03ab6e640549b90e46c4.png

Here the LW is in a good wide position and is going to get on the ball creating a gap in the backline for Bernardo Silva to run into.

 

2. 

777069727_Screenshot2021-03-02at15_25_39.png.670c03d998abc8be5c7d2656674098d7.png

 

Unfortunately Bernardo runs a little narrow and the LW decides that this pass isn't on and goes back to Laporte.

 

3. 

44070625_Screenshot2021-03-02at15_26_37.png.dda3ad63620117eb85414a853b7cf553.png

The LW occupies the wide area then moves into the gap between the FB & CB and makes a very good "Pattern 3" movement but his back is turned to Laporte who has already turned away and is playing back to the Keeper

 

4. 

 

1372481720_Screenshot2021-03-02at15_27_25.png.969bed43d2d425ee27882a7f1a122e3f.png

 

- If the RCM is where we would want him to be, In this scenario we could go straight through to him in space. Instead he and the RB occupy the same zone, same role and same position. Again we do score from this but it's a case of intention vs outcome. If we were to do what we eventually do and play a high long ball to sterling 100 times i think this is probably the only time we score like this. If KDB would have been in a better more advanced position, in those 100 times we could create many different dangerous opportunities and all more realistic to what we're trying to achieve.

 

Clip 3

 

Here is some enjoyable stuff from a movement point of view. All 3 players here on the left hand side threaten the gap and make good movements, it doesn't come but it could have and then we go beyond anyway down the middle

 

1.

370366328_Screenshot2021-03-02at15_54_26.png.dde0443ad1282567a702f5cb42a9cf1f.png

 

Here we have our left side a little bunched up but creating a dangerous situation. I'm not even going to keep referring to the positions here as they change so quick and take turns at exploiting the half space.

2. 

405977446_Screenshot2021-03-02at15_54_34.png.8bd5c82eaa7885d24a4ff88e7eae6627.png

 

I mean this scenario is great enough. There's a huge gap between the FB & CB. The CDM for Liverpool is never getting to our player in the gap if we can play it. Perfect " Pattern 1"

 

3. 

The ball doesn't go and is played to a point now where the player on the ball in the start of the clip is now playing the "CM" role and making the vertical run between the gaps. This reminds me a little of the Zinchenko run against Spurs in the analysis section.

 

I loved this move all 3 wide players either took turns running into the gap or threatening it. The Pivot came to the left side allowing for the double pivot if the RB was better positioned. All of this points towards the left side being close to being correct and close enough to be left alone and focus on other areas.

 

Final Clip and the death of the higher IWB.

I knew this was coming. Again i refer back to my previous posts I don't know what it is, but whenever I play the back 4 out of line or a single offset CDM i feel the AI exploit it really well. There's no reason for the RB to not be defending deeper here and we get caught like i predicted we would by them breaking through this issue and scoring. At this point I felt I had made somehow a questionable right side worse. 

 

 

Conclusion of the game and how to move forwards

Conclusion

I was so disappointed with our control of the game, Possession by any way you want to calculate it and chances created.

One thing that majorly stood out in this game and when looking back at other games it became apparent too, was how badly the winger role was ruining patterns. I felt there were too many occasions where they would get on the ball ( and in previous games it was just the left side ) and have potential to link up, instead they would just run with it wide & try dribble past a man or simply just travel with it on the outside.

I knew I was going to change the roles which ideally I didn't want to do on the left side but I felt by making a minor change i could keep the positives of the movement but change some of the decisions on the ball. I wanted a role that i could edit lots of player instructions. Lots of wide roles either have Sit narrower, Cut inside with ball or run wide with ball preset. I wanted them to stay wide, I didn't mind them dribbling more as they were the only players I wanted to really do this. But I didn't necessarily want them to run wide with the ball every time either. I wanted a role that stayed wide, had neither cut inside or run wide and allowed for more dribbling.

Moving Forwards

I had both Spurs A & Chelsea at H coming up. After that we had a long run of decent fixtures that might be perfect timing to think I found a "good" solution but really the fixtures just got easier. I wanted to get something to work in these final two games before I closed FM for the night.

 

The Left side I was going to leave as much as possible. It's not perfect and the ILWB pushing forward a little too much but it's acceptable as a starting point. The right side needed an overhaul. Centrally things seemed ok and it was hard to analyse with the right side being so variable.

 

Next we will look at the Tottenham & Chelsea games and the Final Tactic i settled on and played the season with.

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11 hours ago, JoOSTAR said:

Absolutely destroyed Tottenham, 7-0 with 4 goals from Hakim Ziyech in the Shadowstriker role :D

2d4831ee71b432a987eda8f619efc5e7.jpg

Haha this is brilliant! I mean Gundogan has been excellent without Kevin De Bruyne and being very aggressive with his runs. I mean his goal against spurs in real life where Ederson clears the ball over the top and he runs onto it is a great example. Sounds and seems like your Ziyech is just embracing his new role and destroying teams!

I mean your Possession was probably on 62% because they kicked off so many times!

2 hours ago, latrell said:

Very early days but my God the football is amazing the shape in play and the link ups are looking amazing possession is really good to. 

Screenshot (3).png

That is brilliant! Look at the possession against Newcastle just after half time. That's some really impressive stuff there both keep me updated on how it's going and if you're noticing anything positive or negative!

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Been trying this tactic with Arsenal and really enjoying it so far. Lots of good movement. I changed the wide players to inverted wingers with stay wide and get further forward. This is the best way I have found to play Pep style wingers. The idea comes from @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s Pep's Barca thread. Really enjoyed this win against Chelsea. Now it's just to buy the right players for the system. This is also one of the best and most detailed posts I've seen on this forum so great work!

 

Capture.PNG

Edited by acolakoglu
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5 hours ago, acolakoglu said:

Been trying this tactic with Arsenal and really enjoying it so far. Lots of good movement. I changed the wide players to inverted wingers with stay wide and get further forward. This is the best way I have found to play Pep style wingers. The idea comes from @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s Pep's Barca thread. Really enjoyed this win against Chelsea. Now it's just to buy the right players for the system. This is also one of the best and most detailed posts I've seen on this forum so great work!

 

Capture.PNG

Hi. This looks fantastic. I play both wide men in ML/R slots. I find they stay wider that way in the final third. 

Your idea looks very interesting. How wide do your wingers stay in their average positions? Do they stretch play or are they too narrow in the opposition's half?

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Posted (edited)

The Final Chapter.

Tottenham A  & Beyond

Here we are. The final tweaks I settled on and the results from the games and the rest of the season.

Now like I mentioned Before even though this is what i ended up with and played throughout the season, it's still not perfect and I've already got some things i'd like to test out. The main things I would say that i'd like to tweak are the wide players and the 2 wing backs. They play a lot like CIty 2017-2019 in the build up in our "W" shape and then at times the IWB-A will go slightly further forwards replicating some of the areas and zones Cancelo was occupying in the Everton game analysis. 

Pre Tottenham game changes:

 

 

1834904765_Screenshot2021-03-02at23_47_59.png.b5c2e6fc9c5476c06718ea2eb73ce1ed.png

 

2128949333_Screenshot2021-03-03at00_07_54.png.592104017ba3baebb879b4575bfe63e7.png

750047233_Screenshot2021-03-03at00_07_47.png.8bca309264b4472339dd52f9bc16c1db.png

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377143812_Screenshot2021-03-03at00_07_30.png.a26a2a21112094eaebd3dd0b8f4e8026.png

The Two major changes

AM - S. This was a little about KDB's come deep to get ball trait & the fact I was now using both wide players in the positions that they're in. This Role also allowed me to get the RCM to Get forward, Move into channels & Roam from position. Having the RCM in the same line as the LCM but on support duty I was hoping would stop him and the IRWB playing so much in the same spaces and zones. I wasn't totally worried if occasionally they ended up near each other outnumbering the opposition as long as one of them eventually made a vertical run into the next forward zone or one dropped to let the other take that zone. Even if the RW went centra, RCM dropped a little and the RWB went wide that's absolutely fine too just not the same exact zones all the time.

WM- A. I've already touched on this a little. The WM role is great because it lets you change so many things in the player instructions. Here i'm able to get them to stay wide, Cross less & not have to run wide with the ball or cut inside. You'll see it's not perfect but I felt an improvement on before. Now are seeing other people's roles I think this probably could change and is probably one of the areas i'd like to improve. But it's part of the blueprint and gets us to a starting point.

 

Tottenham A

 

At a glance

 

1754339403_Screenshot2021-03-03at01_28_40.png.25b892ed280f250f0b6d636633932941.png

We were fantastic.

We dominated the ball and in the right areas. We would work it into a half space and then come out if the space wasn't there or look to exploit if there was. The wingers held the width so much better which many of the clips will show and we achieved an amazing jump from the Liverpool game.

Clip 1:

This was very early on in the game and gave me a lot of confidence in where this was going. Not only do we keep the ball for a long period with spurs getting nowhere near the ball, but there was a purpose behind pretty much all of it. 

The wide players held their width, & the relationships and depth of positioning between the RCM and IRWB was significantly better.

1. 

 

1045642527_Screenshot2021-03-03at03_14_51.png.2651c45e947cb81b1e2a0d19511bf0cf.png

Here early in the clip we see the winger holding a wide position in the build up

 

2. 

313603437_Screenshot2021-03-03at03_15_10.png.d450a42e057369293bc94ec3ae4b902f.png

Here a little later on we get a real view of the two wide players playing exactly as wanted. This isn't a counter or a turnover of possession this is a built up sustained attack with them in the final third still occupying the wide zones.

 

3. 

1011580587_Screenshot2021-03-03at03_15_25.png.50f59a71cedbaa69ddb0ca745d86861e.png

 

Here I don't need to circle the wingers again! But at this point we're starting to see a little more of separation between the RCM & RB. It's not perfect but it's better then before. Progress!

4. 

1963182702_Screenshot2021-03-03at03_15_42.png.73b40a704bc37e6964ed657fcad8e1ef.png

The LW still wide has occupied the FB and created a huge gap in the back line. We don't exploit this but another layer of success in this game and more confidence I was closer then before.

5. 

1664213799_Screenshot2021-03-03at03_13_49.png.46e01049c380f1c3abf0c2c03c934718.png

 

To conclude this clip we have a massive outnumbering in the middle of the field in which the RCM is a part of and the RB is nicely spaced out away from him in his own zone. A briliant start to the game with layers and layers of positives wrapped in the same moments.

 

Clip 2:

Great team move and Goal. Before this clip starts we had just been on a previous attack near their goal and this is why the wide players are so narrow at the start of the clip. Created overloads here it wasn't as crisp as the first clip but was still decent and a great goal.

 

Clip 3

Build up with width again.

 

Clip 4:

 

Here's a really good example where all of the 3 players here rotate in each role. We almost get the 2 players in the same zone issue but they between them just about correct it ( for the standards of the ME ) and it becomes a good move and nearly a great goal.

Clip 5:

 

Just so simple for the team to play straight through the opposition lines and getting the ball to our wide players in wide areas. It was unfortunate the end part of the move was so poor!

 

In Game Analysis

 

1886822171_Screenshot2021-03-03at01_28_40.png.b7976b35427e874ca63297fd5c2c29a8.png

 

Starting with the same image as before, we can see not only did we achieve a lot more passes and attempt more, we completed a higher percentage of them too.

 

1139978029_Screenshot2021-03-03at01_30_20.png.5115279a9647edc71b3ace1ba13b5c76.png

 

This looks a lot more balanced than before. The wingers are a little narrow on this it seems, but in reality and when it was required they were where they needed to be. This leaves me pondering if it's exactly the right role but it's better for now.

 

1634338358_Screenshot2021-03-03at01_31_46.png.44d407ee9bae4ac75e278b724abf8696.png

 

Even looking at the unsuccessful passes we are seeing it a lot more evenly distributed across the team and there's no glaring side or few specific players making the same mistakes.

 

 

Conclusion

 

I was extremely happy with this game for so many reasons but it was only one game and I was waiting to see if it would continue. This is really the last bit & the final chapter of the tactical evolution. The next last part ( or 2 parts )  I will post the end of season stats ( Team and Player ). A look at some analysis and clips from different games and different levels of opposition and how the tactic played against those teams.  

The very final part will be what I think could be improved either for results or realism. What I plan to tweak, change and test going forwards. If people want to take some of it and do it themselves that's absolutely great the quicker it's done the better! Some people have already mentioned things that I had noted to try so it's great that we're getting so many different ideas and all getting good results.

I hope everyone is enjoying their saves and all of kind and positive words are really appreciated I can't thank everyone enough. 

 

* I wanted to include some more games but i've run out of time so here are some screenshots of other games that we will go through in the next post

 

Chelsea H

37344540_Screenshot2021-03-03at04_25_26.png.347004c8839fdab5d00557cadb7d9f45.png

 

Everton H

2068542522_Screenshot2021-03-03at04_25_54.png.0ddadf2c1e9c47f2b5ff3f73bc3ca98d.png

Arsenal A

72142240_Screenshot2021-03-03at04_26_05.png.426a02c8652b239aa57a03e4bdaf5445.png

 

Newcastle H

881064470_Screenshot2021-03-03at04_25_42.png.4d5fe9140aa10d6cc4e4a8240ac6b576.png

 

United A

392396334_Screenshot2021-03-03at04_26_17.png.6fc13dee4cfdd6f89c126d82b396c2ad.png

 

Crystal Palace H

783714607_Screenshot2021-03-03at04_26_43.png.435cdcd11141a390bea4927f7e7943f4.png

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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7 hours ago, acolakoglu said:

Been trying this tactic with Arsenal and really enjoying it so far. Lots of good movement. I changed the wide players to inverted wingers with stay wide and get further forward. This is the best way I have found to play Pep style wingers. The idea comes from @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s Pep's Barca thread. Really enjoyed this win against Chelsea. Now it's just to buy the right players for the system. This is also one of the best and most detailed posts I've seen on this forum so great work!

 

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What a performance! what's even better is you did that and your striker did his best to prevent it with a 6.4. What team instructions are you using? and what role are you using for the striker?

Great stuff! and another team being played as even better!

 

Thank you very much Acolakoglu ! It's great to see so many people engage in the thread. Even if it's inspiration and they've taken it in a different direction if we get to our end result we all win.

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This thread has really got me enjoying FM21 again been getting great ideas and seen how things are working for others i am going to finish the season with City then see if i can take this Style of play to another league, ive really tried to get the shape of the way City attack with the  2 3 5 shape so far results have been good.

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7 hours ago, latrell said:

This thread has really got me enjoying FM21 again been getting great ideas and seen how things are working for others i am going to finish the season with City then see if i can take this Style of play to another league, ive really tried to get the shape of the way City attack with the  2 3 5 shape so far results have been good.

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Latrell you're tearing it up early on! Keep us updated on how it plays over the full season and if you run into any problems. Chelsea A will be an interesting test! Some of your possession is great. In one of my CL games i had it in a flat 4 in the AM slots and maybe my roles weren't right it didn't quite work for me and I abandoned it maybe too early it seems! 

What disappointed me is in so many of my games it was around 68% - 75% area and then the last 5 minutes of the game I guess my team go into game management and it plummets to whatever it ends up on. I think the Everton H game for me I ended up on 65% but it was 70%+  until the 87th minute! My second season is a lot higher for average possession but I also now have a better team. I still think with a better reputation and playing my full tactic from the start I could have had better overall results.

Great stuff glad KDB is doing well for you!

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16 minutes ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

Latrell you're tearing it up early on! Keep us updated on how it plays over the full season and if you run into any problems. Chelsea A will be an interesting test! Some of your possession is great. In one of my CL games i had it in a flat 4 in the AM slots and maybe my roles weren't right it didn't quite work for me and I abandoned it maybe too early it seems! 

What disappointed me is in so many of my games it was around 68% - 75% area and then the last 5 minutes of the game I guess my team go into game management and it plummets to whatever it ends up on. I think the Everton H game for me I ended up on 65% but it was 70%+  until the 87th minute! My second season is a lot higher for average possession but I also now have a better team. I still think with a better reputation and playing my full tactic from the start I could have had better overall results.

Great stuff glad KDB is doing well for you!

Yes it has been a very encouraging start but as you say there are some big test coming up i look forward to seeing how the formation stands up to it, so far in every match i have felt in full control, i have a feeling injuries will play a part KDB is getting very jaded and Barnardo is out for 8 weeks. 

And i reckon we all have to be a bit mindful of abandoning a tactic and a idea to early we are in a tough league, a little tip what i do for keeping possession a bit more is just tweak the time wasting a little sounds horrible but i find the players are just a bit more careful in possession when i do this i tend to do it in about the 75th to 80th minute if i am in full control and winning also i set my corners to short along with my throw ins to short, i so have a urge to try this tactic out with a Barcelona or Ajax :D

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6 minutes ago, latrell said:

Yes it has been a very encouraging start but as you say there are some big test coming up i look forward to seeing how the formation stands up to it, so far in every match i have felt in full control, i have a feeling injuries will play a part KDB is getting very jaded and Barnardo is out for 8 weeks. 

And i reckon we all have to be a bit mindful of abandoning a tactic and a idea to early we are in a tough league, a little tip what i do for keeping possession a bit more is just tweak the time wasting a little sounds horrible but i find the players are just a bit more careful in possession when i do this i tend to do it in about the 75th to 80th minute if i am in full control and winning also i set my corners to short along with my throw ins to short, i so have a urge to try this tactic out with a Barcelona or Ajax :D

Actually that's something I completely forgot to mention is my set pieces are generic ones I used in a previous tactic and they aren't designed to retain the ball. The corner just go in and the throw ins have lots of short options but it's set to quick.

I will change both to short and see if it improves it further. haha time wasting love it!

Well that's not good! because they're in a "CAM" role on FM Mahrez might be able to do that job fine but then it depends on who you're playing wide! 

Yes I wouldn't abandon it after one game normally haha I probably should explain that, I already had a blueprint that i thought was close and the changes took me so much further away then i was before that i decided those drastic changes for what i had wasn't the right choice at that time. But it could be now and you're getting great results! Are you on FM touch or is that just a custom skin?

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Custom skin OPZ Elite been my favourite skin for the past few years now, looking forward to seeing some more of your results ill give you a update on mine a bit further in to my season hopefully my team can keep it up. 

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17 hours ago, Belmont said:

Hi. This looks fantastic. I play both wide men in ML/R slots. I find they stay wider that way in the final third. 

Your idea looks very interesting. How wide do your wingers stay in their average positions? Do they stretch play or are they too narrow in the opposition's half?

They generally stay pretty wide as you can see in the average position map for that game. I've tried playing them as wide midfielders but I thought that they would often drop too deep and not stay high enough.

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14 hours ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

What a performance! what's even better is you did that and your striker did his best to prevent it with a 6.4. What team instructions are you using? and what role are you using for the striker?

Great stuff! and another team being played as even better!

 

Thank you very much Acolakoglu ! It's great to see so many people engage in the thread. Even if it's inspiration and they've taken it in a different direction if we get to our end result we all win.

Yeah Laca had a bad game so I subbed Lautaro Martinez in for his debut and he scored with his first touch for the club. I played the striker as a false 9 and the team instructions were the same as yours with get stuck in turned off. I found that I was just getting too many yellows.

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Posted (edited)

End of Season Review

  • Stats & Clips over the season
  • How things are looking half way through a second season
  • Things that could have improved the results of the tactic without changing it
  • Ideas to improve the tactic & Potential Testing ideas

 

Stats and clips

Finally time to bring you the stats over the season & Clips of the tactic in action against different levels of opposition. Some clips are related to goals, some are just for the movements. Most of them are showing how well it worked in certain situations but i've left a few in where things didn't quite work, but you can see how close it was. The close clips also are me showing why It as a tactic even though was successful overall it has the potential to improve not just from a realism stand point but results too! For people looking for the most realistic and best replication possible, this is definitely something to be used as a potential blueprint where you then make your own tweaks and create your own design.  We've seen already people are coming up with great ideas AND having success which is brilliant. Even if you were already doing this before you saw the thread and you're able to see something that i've done that worked for me and taken bits away to add to what you're doing that's fantastic too!

If you're looking for something that just works and is somewhat close and you're not too caught up in the specifics then this should work for you if you have a top team in your league as the results will show.

 This thread is hopefully going to continue and become a good discussion board for someone to eventually perfect it. I have my own ideas of what i'm going to try next and why but hopefully the posts will be a little shorter. If you've read the thread then hopefully when i mention things you know already the thoughts behind it by this point!

 

Competition Overview:

 

981489360_SeasonOverview.png.d64ad1c70b96c328b7c4c357227461ad.png

Brilliant Season won the Premier League, FA Cup & Champions League. 101 Points Also was fantastic.

 

League Table

 

300469212_LeagueTable.png.080b91eb8899ab10efd780888b829c8b.png

 

We conceded a few more then I would have liked but for a possession based tactic on FM I was really happy with the amount of goals we scored. Now sometimes this stat can be skewed by a lot of penalties being scored or a corner routine that's overpowered so lets look at these stats.

Fixtures & Results:

1012331969_Screenshot2021-03-04at03_27_40.png.c405947afadfd3694169979affe2cafd.png

 

 

1682012005_Screenshot2021-03-04at03_27_47.png.32414f1f4ffa56425cb935b29a343ff8.png

 

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1124944532_Screenshot2021-03-04at03_28_01.png.415ede87dc6bee2b088356c3c24a4089.png

 

Goals

587556863_Goalsfromcorners.png.9d35af0a54aa6d2761819e0f093ba70d.png

 

1932955914_PenaltiesTaken.png.64479eabadd918624f6c7b88cedee755.png

 

We scored 7 from penalties second in the league and 6 from corners which is joint top with about half the league!

 

Possession

Now we need to remember again it's calculated in FM differently and to expect a few percentages less than real life for this reason and the ME. Having said that I felt as i mentioned in an earlier post I believe there are a number of factors that could have made it higher without changing anything with the tactic itself.

  • Manager reputation ( I started UEFA B, Sunday league footballer )
  • Set Pieces ( I used some generic ones i made for a previous tactic. I have throw ins set to quick and corners are mixed )
  • Mass Rotation. There were probably about 4-5 Premier league games where I played a completely rotated side. Then add the first 5 games of the season where the tactic was constantly changing and we had 2 low percentage games

1131425063_AveragePossession.png.7148a73e760428a99fd4ecac3129267b.png

60% , Most passes completed and highest completion percentage. Not a bad start considering what i mentioned before and If i take you to a quick image of this current season you'll see the potential of this tactic even as is with it's flaws and current incorrect roles.

2004280301_Screenshot2021-03-04at03_40_21.png.6b61aeac1ee1bcac6a1aaca17cfe3fad.png

 

We are currently 18 games we are averaging 63%  in with 9550 Passes completed which is going to put us close to 20,000 for the season compared to last seasons 17,861.  We currently sit at 92% pass success rate compared to last seasons 91%.

Just so we are aware of just how far off we still are and why an exact replication will be difficult is City in real life as of today have 18,492 completed passes after 27 games according to the Premier League's official website. Compare that to the numbers above!

 

Dribbling

1262557032_Screenshot2021-03-04at03_54_28.png.4205a62af6f1625d8fe91023684fa8f2.png

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Now i'm personally really happy with this. It's not often I have a tactic that works and we aren't the top team or near it for dribbles or dribbles per game.This is where comparing statistics to real life gets difficult. Arsenal in my FM game have the most Dribbles per game at 5.24. In real life the last completed season ( 2019 - 2020 ) the highest team had 13.4 dribbles per game and the LOWEST team had 6.5 dribbles per game according to whoscored. Now that statistic along should really make you take a moment when you see statistics in FM and comparing them to real life. The best team in FM for dribbles per game is less than half of the top team in real life, AND it's lower than the absolute worst team for dribbles per game in real life.

* I didn't know this until I thought it would be good to compare my city stats for dribbling with real life and i'm still shocked just how different it is. I'm not shocked in a knocking the game kind of way i just mean shocked at just how much we need to be careful when comparing stuff to real life with statistics at the very least!

 

Clear Cut chances list

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XG against

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XG For

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Possession lost

681118503_PossessionLost.png.6eda13022b48a6bb2583cdc6b1bc109e.png

 

Player Stats:

Top Scorers

1982013065_Topscorerlist.png.3774abfdb089d5a6dd8ebc6df89e772d.png

 

Top Assists

733302518_TopAssists.png.91e1009983c7d0e358514578f704b401.png

 

Average Rating

 

1118158453_Averagerating.png.bae4ecf207aa675c325ccc7b33e1122e.png

 

Now reading through the thread I know what you're thinking. How on earth with all the problems did Kevin De Bruyne get that many assists and that high of an average rating? I've done all the analysis, looked over every game and come to the conclusion..... I have absolutely no idea how he managed that. No i'm joking! He took corners & got most of our goals from corners as assists & took our free kicks that were crossed in which helped. He also was our main penalty taker so some of his goals were from that. He also was just far more effective in the AM-S role for me I found and played lots of through balls for the striker and the RW. Well done Kev.. I guess. 

 

Clips from the games. Here will be just the overview screen of the game followed by clips in those games.

 

Chelsea H

493422354_Screenshot2021-03-03at04_25_26.png.ef34c345894977becdc0ea9e2e3be667.png

 

 

 

Villa A

2047322830_Screenshot2021-03-04at04_36_26.png.1134ebed2ba03afa14275a45721a6c54.png

 

 

 

Newcastle H

647687363_Screenshot2021-03-04at04_36_35.png.78204d6548378adbd413ba39c942bb9c.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

West Ham H

472803176_Screenshot2021-03-04at04_36_45.png.f855bef8d3b0987ac9c096e3f7b25f73.png

 

 

 

 

West Brom A

 

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Burnley A

 

1827661944_Screenshot2021-03-04at04_37_04.png.9c24980997d58a7e571fd545c0d66417.png

 

 

 

 

 

Everton H

555646753_Screenshot2021-03-04at04_37_15.png.be9154b2fda08104b36ac6260d1fd112.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

United A

 

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Crystal Palace H

I thought we'd finish with 10 of the best from Manchester City against Palace. These are ALL goals and pre clipped by the in game highlights so they might not show as much detail as other clips.

Enjoy

 

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Things that could have improved the results of the tactic without changing it

 

I sort of covered this in the possession section but incase you skimmed over it.

  • Manager reputation ( I started UEFA B, Sunday league footballer )
  • Set Pieces ( I used some generic ones i made for a previous tactic. I have throw ins set to quick and corners are mixed )
  • Mass Rotation. There were probably about 4-5 Premier league games where I played a completely rotated side. Then add the first 5 games of the season where the tactic was constantly changing and we had 2 low percentage games

 

 

Ideas to improve the tactic & Potential Testing ideas

 

So my final part to this. Like I said and reiterated many times the tactic is not perfect but I feel its close enough to build from. What we've learned from the statistics section is just how different real life stats and FM stats can be. This should allow for people to look at how close they are in a different way. In my example my wingers aren't quite right and we switch the ball a little too often winger to winger because of the two higher CM's and deeper wingers I believe. 

Also I feel i created a decent replication of City 2017-2019 in the build up and the "W" shape along with some sprinkling of a more adventurous IWB from 2020-2021. I didn't however succeed with the shape of the build up in the current 2020 - 2021 season with a full back as a more prominent double pivot and having a 3/1 behind it. Again that can all change in different moments with positional football. In my Everton Analysis we saw Walker who would be part of the "Back 3" in the build up, occupy the backline, wide areas and travel into areas he would have done in his 2018 role.

Regardless I didn't achieve that but I was ok with it as a starting point and now it's something i'll look to adjust to now.  The idea was to eventually get to how city play now, but with analysing them over a longer period with differences and similarities it's clear there are principles and things that have carried over from pep's first successful season until now. 

Here are some of my Ideas of what I would look to test in isolation to try and create more realistic situations, patterns and movements before hopefully finding which ones are working and which ones may combine better with different roles.

 

Wingers

 

1290622594_Screenshot2021-03-04at05_13_58.png.15742751795299435a59d8ef94ec3e13.png

1703302685_Screenshot2021-03-04at05_14_12.png.de9b2677e0c89cbae0f4b73d8badd68b.png

 

Like other posters have mentioned the issue i find a little with the WM roles is they do seem to take a while to get high. To the point where at times they sort of sit in possession between the full back and winger of the other team and the full back doesn't even bother to engage them until they progress with the ball at times. They do a decent job of staying wide but it's something I would look at either changing their roles but keeping them where they are to either both IW or just one IW.

They could be split like when i originally had a W-S and Ramdeuter, I would now use a WM-A and IW-A/S 

Or they could both be high like in the second image and here they would both have to be IW and I would look at maybe making the left one a support.

 

Creating the double pivot

1712075470_Screenshot2021-03-04at05_15_03.png.2913e8d4ef540137838fe4248645107c.png

If i was to just look to change this in isolation I would look to test something like this. RCB stay wider, LB sit narrower and see how that plays out in creating the shape from the Everton analysis in particular. Although it would be reversed as Cancelo was doing the double pivot from the left side not the right on that occasion

I have a feeling something like this might work really well for the shape and realism, but the trade off might be the overall quality and success of the tactic itself especially defensively and it would depend on where the pivots look to pass and if the central players link with them. This may require a change in the positions in front too.

 

Half space runs & Pattern 1

 

1641663716_Screenshot2021-03-04at05_15_41.png.5ef31a0eb57dce19b02aa075d717bc32.png

Now this is my biggest frustration is getting someone to exploit the space we've created between the FB & CB. We've created it so many times through all of the tweaks of the tactic but a player hardly ever exploits it. 

The theory here is due to having no striker to play in behind or go direct to, it might allow the players to look for other players to run in behind and play through balls for the shadow striker in particular. If it worked I could see a potential double shadow striker situation on the cards and then maybe both wide players to be on support duties? I really want to try this but i'm not set on the "striker role". 

* Continues on next post 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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Putting it all together

 

The changes mentioned previously were all in isolation and things I would test on their own while keeping the rest of the tactic the same to keep stability with the tactic while testing. But what if I put some of them together and how might it look?

 

1.

1046889478_Screenshot2021-03-04at05_16_09.png.3fc939c587863acd55bc976c02cf5904.png

 

2.

438765464_Screenshot2021-03-04at05_55_24.png.c8184efe9bfebb244b835e08bd4af912.png

 

3. 

701924613_Screenshot2021-03-04at05_56_22.png.768d68bff45da02bdfdd099d040406d3.png

 

These 3 Would be my starting blocks and build from there but I'll leave a few listed below incase this helps with anyone and their thinking. Some of you contributing to the thread have already gone down this route and had brilliant success so I'm looking forward to continue reading your progress!

 

1.

1941319478_Screenshot2021-03-04at06_03_44.png.487d6506d53b7cfa762df8aa967c2733.png

 

2. 

1462267017_Screenshot2021-03-04at06_02_37.png.48228b595abc989e06108445db230e2a.png

 

3. 

 

749961368_Screenshot2021-03-04at06_04_14.png.5e18d8ae16f726aebcb959950f1542f1.png

4. 

2072416352_Screenshot2021-03-04at06_05_01.png.c831d488136f940b607a34675e09506a.png

 

5. 

 

3292657_Screenshot2021-03-04at06_03_28.png.4dc7bdce7a94ca50f7e7ff8cde5f6f51.png

 

Thank you to everyone who's had kind words to say or contributed in any way!

 

I saw someone mention earlier that they didn't want to "derail" the thread with some posts and questions etc. Please feel free to talk and post as much as you like in here about anything! We're all trying to achieve the same goal and you never know what someone else might find useful and potentially learn from how you're getting on. 

I don't see this as "my thread" it's our thread for anyone that is at all remotely interested in this type of football, FM playstyle or just this type of discussion around Football and or FM.

Thank you All my long posts and I suppose my thread is now finally up and I can just comment and post like a normal user from now on! 

If anyone ever wants to chat FM, Football or both I'm always free and happy to engage in here or Via PM!

 

Enjoy ruining football for the AI teams in your saves!

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1 hour ago, Lordluap said:

I've just been giving this a try:

 

HEAT.PNG

PASS.PNG

TAC.PNG

SHOT.PNG

I like your set up in the back in this image I'm a little surprised Trips is all the way out here though on the ball. If i would suggest something to try from my own experience, have you tired changing the ILWB to Support? Right here he might end up in line with your CDM rather then near the mezzala? It depends on what exactly you want I mean with what you've got it looks like you're going to outnumber and destroy AI teams with them all being in the same areas which is great and it works! but if you're going for the "high end" of being pep specific lets say that might frustrate you, I cite references to KDB and Cancelo in my images !

 Looks pretty good here it's a shame felix has come so narrow but you've got an overload there on the far side if trippier goes through the middle which I suspect from him winding up he does not and goes long to costa or felix at the back post ? Could be some really good patterns there if the switch goes through your CDM then out to one of your trio!

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11 hours ago, acolakoglu said:

They generally stay pretty wide as you can see in the average position map for that game. I've tried playing them as wide midfielders but I thought that they would often drop too deep and not stay high enough.

Capture.thumb.PNG.7c1b373c407ad263a9ed529b8843f724.PNG

Yeah Laca had a bad game so I subbed Lautaro Martinez in for his debut and he scored with his first touch for the club. I played the striker as a false 9 and the team instructions were the same as yours with get stuck in turned off. I found that I was just getting too many yellows.

Oh nice I'm looking forward to your progress! and Lautaro Martinez is absolutely amazing in this system as a false 9. The only reason I played Haaland is was because of personal preference but really Martinez played the role better and probably would have scored more goals if he started the same games. 

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22 minutes ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

I like your set up in the back in this image I'm a little surprised Trips is all the way out here though on the ball. If i would suggest something to try from my own experience, have you tired changing the ILWB to Support? Right here he might end up in line with your CDM rather then near the mezzala? It depends on what exactly you want I mean with what you've got it looks like you're going to outnumber and destroy AI teams with them all being in the same areas which is great and it works! but if you're going for the "high end" of being pep specific lets say that might frustrate you, I cite references to KDB and Cancelo in my images !

 Looks pretty good here it's a shame felix has come so narrow but you've got an overload there on the far side if trippier goes through the middle which I suspect from him winding up he does not and goes long to costa or felix at the back post ? Could be some really good patterns there if the switch goes through your CDM then out to one of your trio!

I did have the LIWB on Support but watching some of the Wolves game the other night (where this inspiration came from), Cancelo seemed to get a lot further forward even than normal, with Walker staying further back and narrower - hence me trying this set up with the "Flat back 3".  I have also tried a standard LWB(A) with Sit Narrower to allow him to overlap on runs.   One thing I have noticed though is that the IWB on Attack does mix up underlap / overlap runs more.  Tripper has "Stay Wider"... id be tempted with a retained WB who has "Hugs Line" PPM here as well to shift a bit wider on the ball? and Definitely "Brings Ball Out of Defence" to get a bit more forward running on the ball - which did happen quite a lot in the test games I played.  

It's not a bolted-on "Pep" recreation  - it defends as an almost 5-3-2 with the RM dropping back, but does give some nice 3-3-4 / 3-4-3 / 3-2-5 patterns in attack.  

As you've surely seen, there seems to be no set way to recreate Pep tactics as they are so fluid.  

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This is just phenomenal work. I've admired Pep since he was at Barcelona but this Manchester City side is just revolutionary. 

I've had amazing new ideas from your analysis and I do have a better understanding of how the game works now. 

Thank you. 

 

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6 hours ago, Lordluap said:

I did have the LIWB on Support but watching some of the Wolves game the other night (where this inspiration came from), Cancelo seemed to get a lot further forward even than normal, with Walker staying further back and narrower - hence me trying this set up with the "Flat back 3".  I have also tried a standard LWB(A) with Sit Narrower to allow him to overlap on runs.   One thing I have noticed though is that the IWB on Attack does mix up underlap / overlap runs more.  Tripper has "Stay Wider"... id be tempted with a retained WB who has "Hugs Line" PPM here as well to shift a bit wider on the ball? and Definitely "Brings Ball Out of Defence" to get a bit more forward running on the ball - which did happen quite a lot in the test games I played.  

It's not a bolted-on "Pep" recreation  - it defends as an almost 5-3-2 with the RM dropping back, but does give some nice 3-3-4 / 3-4-3 / 3-2-5 patterns in attack.  

As you've surely seen, there seems to be no set way to recreate Pep tactics as they are so fluid.  

Yes that's a fair point his movement into the "CM Role" in the Everton game is what made me also go with IWB - A and I was wondering now if support gets a better build up shape but with the right traits might get the secondary part also?

Well exactly positional play right! I was purely there talking about the build up shape not the rest of it as it was something I personally didn't get close enough too in terms of City 2020-2021 & it looked good and that you were potentially onto something in your image!

How are your results etc?

 

6 hours ago, Belmont said:

This is just phenomenal work. I've admired Pep since he was at Barcelona but this Manchester City side is just revolutionary. 

I've had amazing new ideas from your analysis and I do have a better understanding of how the game works now. 

Thank you. 

 

Thank you for commenting and contributing keep us updated on what you've gone with and how its going. I'm interested to know how people are getting on in their saves and its great to see so many different people using so many different teams with it I didn't expect that as much!

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Just finished first season as Arsenal and it went pretty well. We finished in 4th but collapsed pretty hard toward the end mainly due to comical levels of fixture congestion. We also won Europa which was a nice bonus.

569487801_prem2021.thumb.PNG.6ceb880832c3f180abd7d04ba296914b.PNG895660116_Europa2021.thumb.PNG.16d6ea0b6d9ec60a1782887b9bb5036a.PNG

We also averaged 61% possession in the league which is pretty good for a team with Arsenal's squad level. The primary challenges going into next season are the loss of our primary creator Oedegaard in the De Bruyne role and an aging Aubameyang. My solution for the first issue is I have brought in Camavinga for 50 million pounds. While he's primarily known as a defensive midfielder he has incredible mentals, technicals, and physicals. He's like if Xavi and Vieira had a baby so I think he will suit the role pretty well. As for the second problem, my long term target is Sancho but my finances are pretty limited so I might have to wait off on that one.

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Thought I would share my interpretation of the system. On paper it looks extremely aggressive, and it is.

I would go as far as saying it plays some of my favourite football I have been able to recreate on FM21, and it echos OPs posts in a similar fashion. My main aim was to obtain that W shape build up with the IWBs tucking in and the wingers staying wide. So far I have tested it with several elite teams (PSG, Juve), and they are absolutely steam rolling through teams.

I have ene tried it with Burnley of all teams, and whilst they don't have the same quality, for example their dribbling is off, and they don't have the vision to pick killer passes, they are still have good enough teamwork and decision making to hold their shape, interchange positions and pass the ball well.

 

 

 

301919125_Screenshot2021-03-05at10_51_52.thumb.png.95ab32c5e1188a1b2f801d8384b7c4fb.png

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il y a 45 minutes, poobington a dit :

Thought I would share my interpretation of the system. On paper it looks extremely aggressive, and it is.

I would go as far as saying it plays some of my favourite football I have been able to recreate on FM21, and it echos OPs posts in a similar fashion. My main aim was to obtain that W shape build up with the IWBs tucking in and the wingers staying wide. So far I have tested it with several elite teams (PSG, Juve), and they are absolutely steam rolling through teams.

I have ene tried it with Burnley of all teams, and whilst they don't have the same quality, for example their dribbling is off, and they don't have the vision to pick killer passes, they are still have good enough teamwork and decision making to hold their shape, interchange positions and pass the ball well.

 

 

 

301919125_Screenshot2021-03-05at10_51_52.thumb.png.95ab32c5e1188a1b2f801d8384b7c4fb.png

Hum... Interesting.

Do you use some pi's? 

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@Cult of Football Manager What's your opinion on the positioning of the centerbacks and the way it difficults the positional play? I think I mention this in every thread on Pep/possession, but I think SI should really do something about the way PL on attack don't drop back to help defend and so your CB's stay back with them.

My logic is if I push my centerbacks up the striker will follow them so they aren't involved in the attack. But the ME thinks the other way around, so since the striker is up on the byline the centerbacks are also on the byline because of long balls. We see so many attempts to simulate what happens in real life (it's a simulation game after all) but it seems to me that this isn't a concern at all. There is not one real life game where you see a team with ball possession and the CB's are so far away from the rest of the team. It's almost infuriating because this could change the all dynamic of the attack and also defensive organization.

Just food for thought.

Edited by drigaco
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3 hours ago, drigaco said:

@Cult of Football Manager What's your opinion on the positioning of the centerbacks and the way it difficults the positional play? I think I mention this in every thread on Pep/possession, but I think SI should really do something about the way PL on attack don't drop back to help defend and so your CB's stay back with them.

My logic is if I push my centerbacks up the striker will follow them so they aren't involved in the attack. But the ME thinks the other way around, so since the striker is up on the byline the centerbacks are also on the byline because of long balls. We see so many attempts to simulate what happens in real life (it's a simulation game after all) but it seems to me that this isn't a concern at all. There is not one real life game where you see a team with ball possession and the CB's are so far away from the rest of the team. It's almost infuriating because this could change the all dynamic of the attack and also defensive organization.

Just food for thought.

Hi @drigaco

 

I think I understand what you mean. People have got creative with building in a 1/3 shape and seem to be getting close to that with their current set up's i have a few ideas i'm yet to test out i've been busy but just played my first game since uploading all of this and it went well!

 

I think to overcome the problem you're suggesting they could look in the future at implementing a feature where you have a "In possession" shape with instructions and "out of possession" shape with instructions? Have you recommended something in the features section? LIke it's been said there are limitations to what you can re create I mean it's lost in the post but the statistics of average dribbles per game in FM & Real life are staggering. 

I remember on CM 01/02 where you would put your players where you want them to be depending on what zone the ball was in and if you were in or out of possession. I'm not saying that's necessarily a solution but that is what they did & it was way before we got to see what was actually going on the pitch and just got commentary!

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Posted (edited)

Managed to play my first proper game since my series of posts & uploads. Created a separate save file & did a few test games to test things out with mixed success which i'll continue but for the rest of this proper second season I will use to play out the tactic and see what results it comes back with.

 

 

1535028201_Screenshot2021-03-07at00_05_13.png.8f8048e32eea05f2e2d3651d3d6381f7.png

 

So here we had a solid game. Dominated easily but having similar issues as before with wide players and the switching but still good football and a good performance.

 

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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Posted (edited)

How's everyone getting on in their saves?

I just finished the second season

Played some great football and would have ended with a similar points total if I hadn't rotated so much. Nearly a replica season but we lost in the CL final due to a red card in the first minute of the second half. I think a previous poster was right about dropping some of the tackling instructions that just cost us the final.

 

I'm not going to go super in depth with the clips and games again but this was a game which I was really happy with and a situation where you can see the potential to build from if the right combinations on the right side were fixed. 

 

Overview:

 

341707717_Screenshot2021-03-08at13_11_07.png.e5ea9ed8e7418ce25658f607dec12c38.png

 

Clip:

 

 

 

* We actually got a run from the RCM into the gap between the FB & CB that received a pass and didn't just play a part in a goal but scored. It was also Kevin De Bruyne making the run if anyone was interested.

 

2062684500_Screenshot2021-03-08at13_00_34.png.056fd525e0cf1e8641f2263e65c13e86.png

 

201602973_Screenshot2021-03-08at13_00_41.png.fb3cb0fcecd8a9850d30f7edd931d537.png

1939491898_Screenshot2021-03-08at13_01_42.png.297bed1c3581bfc9c973ccf2eed01b8d.png

 

Less goals scored and less points but we dropped points in all 3 last games of the season when I was rotating around the Champions league semi final and then the final. We would have finished with around 100 again.

Less goals scored & also less goals conceded which is interesting. Better average possession and lots more passes completed over the season.

 

More goals overall from set pieces which is interesting I hadn't noticed that until I looked at the end of season stats.

 

Going Forwards I will still use this save from half way through the second season to test some of the ideas mentioned in previous posts. I will also start some new saves with new teams over the coming weeks and see how this existing tactic plays out with other teams.

 

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4 hours ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

Herkes tasarrufunda nasıl gidiyor?

İkinci sezonu yeni bitirdim

Harika bir futbol oynadım ve çok fazla dönmeseydim benzer bir toplam puanla bitirdim. Neredeyse bir replika sezonu ancak ikinci yarının ilk dakikasında kırmızı kart nedeniyle CL finalinde kaybettik. Sanırım önceki bir poster, bize finale mal olan bazı mücadele talimatlarını düşürmek konusunda haklıydı.

 

Klipler ve oyunlarla tekrar çok derinlemesine gitmeyeceğim ama bu gerçekten çok mutlu olduğum bir oyundu ve sağ taraftaki doğru kombinasyonların düzeltilmesi durumunda oluşma potansiyelini görebileceğiniz bir durumdu. 

 

Genel Bakış:

 

341707717_Screenshot2021-03-08at13_11_07.png.e5ea9ed8e7418ce25658f607dec12c38.png

 

Klips:

 

 

 

* Aslında RCM'den pas alan ve sadece bir golde rol oynamakla kalmayıp gol atan FB ve CB arasındaki boşluğa koştuk. Aynı zamanda Kevin De Bruyne, ilgilenen varsa koşuyu yapıyordu.

 

2062684500_Screenshot2021-03-08at13_00_34.png.056fd525e0cf1e8641f2263e65c13e86.png

 

201602973_Screenshot2021-03-08at13_00_41.png.fb3cb0fcecd8a9850d30f7edd931d537.png

1939491898_Screenshot2021-03-08at13_01_42.png.297bed1c3581bfc9c973ccf2eed01b8d.png

 

Daha az gol attı ve daha az puan aldı, ancak Şampiyonlar Ligi yarı finali ve ardından final etrafında dönerken sezonun son 3 maçında da puanları düşürdük. Yine 100 civarında bitirebilirdik.

Daha az gol atması ve daha az gol yemesi ilginçtir. Sezon boyunca daha iyi ortalama top ve daha çok pas tamamlandı.

 

Genel olarak ilginç olan set taşlarından daha fazla gol, sezon sonu istatistiklerine bakana kadar fark etmemiştim.

 

İleriye Dönük Bu birikimi, önceki yazılarda bahsedilen fikirlerden bazılarını test etmek için ikinci sezonun yarısından itibaren kullanmaya devam edeceğim. Ayrıca önümüzdeki haftalarda yeni takımlarla yeni tasarruflara başlayacağım ve bu mevcut taktiğin diğer takımlarla nasıl oynandığını göreceğim.

 

Can you share the tactics and PIs in detail?

image.png

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It's a lovely thread @Cult of Football Manager thank you so much for sharing your ideas.  Reminds me a little bit of one of O-zil's threads and there isn't a much higher (FM) compliment I can pay you than that.  Very clear; no ambiguity, hints of cleverness or click-bait to get you to visit a channel or any of that nonsense.  :applause:

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9 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

It's a lovely thread @Cult of Football Manager thank you so much for sharing your ideas.  Reminds me a little bit of one of O-zil's threads and there isn't a much higher (FM) compliment I can pay you than that.  Very clear; no ambiguity, hints of cleverness or click-bait to get you to visit a channel or any of that nonsense.  :applause:

Hi @Robson 07

Thank you for the kind comments! And yes someone else mentioned Ozil before and I read some of his stuff from pervious years so that is high praise greatly appreciated! I wish i had more time to perfect this myself quickly but unfortunately I don't have as much time as i used to and thought i'd share my stuff and hopefully someone else cracks it if i can't  do it quick enough in time. I have lots more free time from April onwards so we will see how it goes but hopefully some interesting discussions too if nothing else.

No none of that and I really tried to stress the point because it's hard to get across in text sometimes i'm not here trying to lecture people as some self proclaimed expert on Pep or the FM match engine. I'm just someone who had studied City a little bit which came about from my time working in football then shared what I found, and being a huge CM/FM player for nearly 20 years how close ( or far ) I got in replicating some of the things I found in FM 21.

 

Got a few days off here so I'll be looking to start a new save with a different team and see how it plays out!

 

 

 

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Ok It's getting late here and before I start a new save tomorrow I thought i'd just play the first few games of the third season with City and here are a few clips of some goals I just felt like i had to share.

 

Goal 1: Pattern 2 

 

 

Goal 2: Pattern 1

 

 

Goal 3: CM into FB & CB gap

 

 

Goal 4:  Pattern.. what? Players decided the patterns were boring lets recreate Gundogan's Goal against Spurs instead!

 

 

 

I love this team I don't want to change it!

 

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5 hours ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

Tamam, burada geç oluyor ve yarın yeni bir kurtarmaya başlamadan önce City ile üçüncü sezonun ilk birkaç maçını oynayacağımı düşündüm ve işte paylaşmam gerektiğini hissettiğim bazı gollerin birkaç klibi.

 

Hedef 1: Model 2 

 

 

Hedef 2: Kalıp 1

 

 

Hedef 3: CM ile FB ve CB boşluğu

 

 

Hedef 4: Kalıp .. ne? Oyuncular kalıpların sıkıcı olduğuna karar verdiler, bunun yerine Gündoğan'ın Spurs'a karşı Golü'nü yeniden oluşturalım!

 

 

 

Bu takımı seviyorum, değiştirmek istemiyorum!

 

What characteristics of the players should we pay attention to for the positions?

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First of all I want to say thank you so much for this great thread! Lots of information, detail and food for thought.

 

Just wanted to share my two cents.. some context, I'm finishing my 2nd season playing with Porto, so expecting to win the League but far from a contender in Champions League. Also, it's a very youth orientated save so lots of homegrown kids playing. I was playing a strikerless 4-1DM-2W-3AMC but with some similar principles: 2-3-5 shape on attack, exploring the half-spaces, maximum width, short passing but wasn't as possession-biased as a Pep's team. After getting knocked out of CL by PSG and with 7 leagues to play I decided to give a shoot and try to somewhat recreate this style given since the start I focused on developing my players on the mental side (anticipation, composure, decisions, teamwork, vision).

So this is my setup right now:

 

1.png.19470b3607f4abb132a57462e0a85306.png

 

No far off from yours, but some notes. 

  • Really like the IWs (stay wider and get further forward) as they are keeping the width until very late in the move;
  • CMa was a recent change as I felt the Mez (a) was a bit too wide. Maybe both play a bit too deep in the 1st build up phase but I'm worried that play 2 AMs cause a lot of distance between the 2-3 and the 5.
  • IWBs because I think on attack they take the space of CM and SS (I'm even considering making at least one defend duty to try attract opposition midfielders and open even more spaces for the CM to explore)
  • Regarding TI, I went with extremely wide to really stretch opposition, despite potentially conflicting with much shorter passing but with so many players in the half spaces they aren't too far apart.
  • Now the bit that I think takes this to another level: underlap. It really helps regards CM/AM exploring that FB-CB space. 

2.png.2d6a4d02b943b749d011b513bf8de328.png

Just a couple of examples from my last game. 2-3-5 perfectly defined, maybe #50 should be even wider but I'm ok with that. See #6 making the run into that half-space and #72 actually plays a perfect through ball to him.

3.png.2927091358a261e42e83d16a2bf96ac1.png

#34 with a ton of space ahead of him, makes the run and our DLP plays it. This also shows my preference for the support duty on the IWB as he gives more room to our CM operate and draws the the attention of opponent #23. This result in a really nice goal after a quick 1-2 between #34 and #30 (F9) before releasing #7 clear on goal.

I also think that the difference in individual mentality between CM/AM (very attacking) and the front 3 (Balanced) plays a part into this. And that's the reason I gone with IW on support and manually added Get further forward thank choose an attack duty which increases their mentality to Attacking (with underlap) or Very Attacking (without).

 

Also another thing that I'm very interested in is changing a couple the build up setup depending on the opposition formation. For example, against Braga's 4-2-3-1 I was having trouble playing out of the back because their ST and AM closed down hard on my CB's, their wingers cut the passing lane to my IWB and my DLP just couldn't get the ball. So I changed DLP -> HB inverting our 2-3 to a 3-2 and suddenly we bypass their press with ease. That detail really got me thinking about the possible changes we can make keeping the same formation and general principles.

Didn't mean to hijack your thread and got a little carried away but would love to your (and the other members) view on that!

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12 hours ago, extudassex2 said:

First of all I want to say thank you so much for this great thread! Lots of information, detail and food for thought.

 

Just wanted to share my two cents.. some context, I'm finishing my 2nd season playing with Porto, so expecting to win the League but far from a contender in Champions League. Also, it's a very youth orientated save so lots of homegrown kids playing. I was playing a strikerless 4-1DM-2W-3AMC but with some similar principles: 2-3-5 shape on attack, exploring the half-spaces, maximum width, short passing but wasn't as possession-biased as a Pep's team. After getting knocked out of CL by PSG and with 7 leagues to play I decided to give a shoot and try to somewhat recreate this style given since the start I focused on developing my players on the mental side (anticipation, composure, decisions, teamwork, vision).

So this is my setup right now:

 

1.png.19470b3607f4abb132a57462e0a85306.png

 

No far off from yours, but some notes. 

  • Really like the IWs (stay wider and get further forward) as they are keeping the width until very late in the move;
  • CMa was a recent change as I felt the Mez (a) was a bit too wide. Maybe both play a bit too deep in the 1st build up phase but I'm worried that play 2 AMs cause a lot of distance between the 2-3 and the 5.
  • IWBs because I think on attack they take the space of CM and SS (I'm even considering making at least one defend duty to try attract opposition midfielders and open even more spaces for the CM to explore)
  • Regarding TI, I went with extremely wide to really stretch opposition, despite potentially conflicting with much shorter passing but with so many players in the half spaces they aren't too far apart.
  • Now the bit that I think takes this to another level: underlap. It really helps regards CM/AM exploring that FB-CB space. 

2.png.2d6a4d02b943b749d011b513bf8de328.png

Just a couple of examples from my last game. 2-3-5 perfectly defined, maybe #50 should be even wider but I'm ok with that. See #6 making the run into that half-space and #72 actually plays a perfect through ball to him.

3.png.2927091358a261e42e83d16a2bf96ac1.png

#34 with a ton of space ahead of him, makes the run and our DLP plays it. This also shows my preference for the support duty on the IWB as he gives more room to our CM operate and draws the the attention of opponent #23. This result in a really nice goal after a quick 1-2 between #34 and #30 (F9) before releasing #7 clear on goal.

I also think that the difference in individual mentality between CM/AM (very attacking) and the front 3 (Balanced) plays a part into this. And that's the reason I gone with IW on support and manually added Get further forward thank choose an attack duty which increases their mentality to Attacking (with underlap) or Very Attacking (without).

 

Also another thing that I'm very interested in is changing a couple the build up setup depending on the opposition formation. For example, against Braga's 4-2-3-1 I was having trouble playing out of the back because their ST and AM closed down hard on my CB's, their wingers cut the passing lane to my IWB and my DLP just couldn't get the ball. So I changed DLP -> HB inverting our 2-3 to a 3-2 and suddenly we bypass their press with ease. That detail really got me thinking about the possible changes we can make keeping the same formation and general principles.

Didn't mean to hijack your thread and got a little carried away but would love to your (and the other members) view on that!

Who would you say were your main goal threats in this formation?

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Love this thread, I have huge admiration for Pep and his style of football!

 

May I ask what were your player instructions with the below setup please? I've been testing it with various instruction but don't think I'm getting the most out of it yet:

image.png.fa07d68b44875be19f5d16e65b6724e4.png

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, extudassex2 said:

First of all I want to say thank you so much for this great thread! Lots of information, detail and food for thought.

 

Just wanted to share my two cents.. some context, I'm finishing my 2nd season playing with Porto, so expecting to win the League but far from a contender in Champions League. Also, it's a very youth orientated save so lots of homegrown kids playing. I was playing a strikerless 4-1DM-2W-3AMC but with some similar principles: 2-3-5 shape on attack, exploring the half-spaces, maximum width, short passing but wasn't as possession-biased as a Pep's team. After getting knocked out of CL by PSG and with 7 leagues to play I decided to give a shoot and try to somewhat recreate this style given since the start I focused on developing my players on the mental side (anticipation, composure, decisions, teamwork, vision).

So this is my setup right now:

 

1.png.19470b3607f4abb132a57462e0a85306.png

 

No far off from yours, but some notes. 

  • Really like the IWs (stay wider and get further forward) as they are keeping the width until very late in the move;
  • CMa was a recent change as I felt the Mez (a) was a bit too wide. Maybe both play a bit too deep in the 1st build up phase but I'm worried that play 2 AMs cause a lot of distance between the 2-3 and the 5.
  • IWBs because I think on attack they take the space of CM and SS (I'm even considering making at least one defend duty to try attract opposition midfielders and open even more spaces for the CM to explore)
  • Regarding TI, I went with extremely wide to really stretch opposition, despite potentially conflicting with much shorter passing but with so many players in the half spaces they aren't too far apart.
  • Now the bit that I think takes this to another level: underlap. It really helps regards CM/AM exploring that FB-CB space. 

2.png.2d6a4d02b943b749d011b513bf8de328.png

Just a couple of examples from my last game. 2-3-5 perfectly defined, maybe #50 should be even wider but I'm ok with that. See #6 making the run into that half-space and #72 actually plays a perfect through ball to him.

3.png.2927091358a261e42e83d16a2bf96ac1.png

#34 with a ton of space ahead of him, makes the run and our DLP plays it. This also shows my preference for the support duty on the IWB as he gives more room to our CM operate and draws the the attention of opponent #23. This result in a really nice goal after a quick 1-2 between #34 and #30 (F9) before releasing #7 clear on goal.

I also think that the difference in individual mentality between CM/AM (very attacking) and the front 3 (Balanced) plays a part into this. And that's the reason I gone with IW on support and manually added Get further forward thank choose an attack duty which increases their mentality to Attacking (with underlap) or Very Attacking (without).

 

Also another thing that I'm very interested in is changing a couple the build up setup depending on the opposition formation. For example, against Braga's 4-2-3-1 I was having trouble playing out of the back because their ST and AM closed down hard on my CB's, their wingers cut the passing lane to my IWB and my DLP just couldn't get the ball. So I changed DLP -> HB inverting our 2-3 to a 3-2 and suddenly we bypass their press with ease. That detail really got me thinking about the possible changes we can make keeping the same formation and general principles.

Didn't mean to hijack your thread and got a little carried away but would love to your (and the other members) view on that!

Hi there

first of all there's no hijacking of the thread i've said before its for everyone and i'm delighted you've contributed so no worries there!

 

As for your tactic and by the way zero of these are criticisms! mine isn't perfect either just something to contribute and maybe trigger some thinking on things you hadn't thought about or for people reading to getter a better understanding of what you've got.

I love the patterns you're getting and I can see from your comment & my own testing why you're looking at changing one of the two IWB. If you're happy with a Pep's city 2017-2019 build up shape then there's nothing wrong with it, but if you're looking more this year then I can see the W shape with both IWB next to your DLP. 

 

Yes the mentality does play a role there. I looked at something like this with the striker and both wide players on support duty and I just felt the drop from my tactic was massive in terms of results and if we went behind early getting back into the game to win was difficult. You're Porto right? So i'm guessing domestic games aren't too much of an issue but In those CL games you get knocked out in do you do anything different against those big sides? Have you experimented with an attack duty on a wide player or the striker? I see you explained why you didn't do that but I was wondering if you had tried it.

 

I'm seeing lots of people are preferring IW in their tactic which is great & I'll look to use more in my testing but I still feel my results drop a little but then maybe we can get them in this role to stay wider for longer so we get more realism? I think your very first picture of a game sums up one of the issues for us all where in real life we would ask the player to stay fully wide in that scenario but in the match engine a combination of calculations make your player stay wide compared to their back 4 but not fully wide on the pitch. I've sort of got to a place where if i'm getting the movement and players in the positions i want and creating patterns then i'm happy for now. I'll look to fix the specifics after if they can be fixed

 

One last thing on a thread i saw ( I don't remember which one ) someone quoting a moderator said to be careful with width and that it's not about just how wide your team is but also the directions of your passes. So full width might result in less central combinations and players looking to get it wide maybe? I haven't looked at it yet but thought it was worth mentioning.

 

Love your last part and even in the All or Nothing City series Pep is talking to his assistant I believe about a similar situation saying depending on how they set up is how city will build so I think that's even more like something Pep would do. I haven't gone that far yet because I've rarely needed to especially in the second season but think it's definitely something to consider for people. Definitely if you are happy with what you've got ( anyone i mean here ) and for some reason in the odd game you lose the battle for positions and possession in some games, Like its been said here is there something tactically to adjust in the building phase and can you continue to dominate? Maybe it's not the tactic that has glaring issues but just a specific set up stops you well and you might need to adjust once in a while

Good stuff thank you for the contribution! 

Keep us updated on your results so far in previous seasons etc and how it's changing going forward!

 

3 hours ago, Sud2002 said:

Love this thread, I have huge admiration for Pep and his style of football!

 

May I ask what were your player instructions with the below setup please? I've been testing it with various instruction but don't think I'm getting the most out of it yet:

image.png.fa07d68b44875be19f5d16e65b6724e4.png

 

Thank you very much for the comments!

As for that specific tactic it was..

Nothing for the back 4 & CDM.

RW Mark Tighter, Tackle Harder

LW Mark Tighter, Tackle Harder

BBM, Get further forward, Move into Channels

SS, Mark Tighter, Tackle Harder

F9, Mark Tighter, Tackle Harder

 

With that early one though I found the LW dribbles too much and the RW gets into good areas but does go narrow too early so maybe IW A on the right & WM-A on the left could be good progressions to it?

 

 

 

Edited by Cult of Football Manager
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31 minutes ago, Sud2002 said:

Tanks for the reply, but oh my god, I've been an idiot! I meant for this setup:

 

 

image.png

I don't have it open right now ( got some unexpected work to do )  but it would have been close to the same as before but the differences would be..

 

CM-A would be Get further forward, Move into Channels , Roam from position, Mark tighter, Tackle harder

W-S , Get further forward , Roam from position, Mark tighter , tackle harder

 

If you're looking for improvements on what you're getting I find that the cm's will start too deep and stay there for too long so you may want to tweak around with that and the LW & RW roles are as i said before in the other picture you shared. I also ended up with my F9 on roam from position but there at that point I didn't.

Hope that Helps!

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6 hours ago, jameswazza3 said:

Who would you say were your main goal threats in this formation?

I'd say SS. Then CMa and IWs (even on support duty, with get further forward they make those runs).

I'm a fan of layering the attack, especially with such a possession-based system, to disrupt opposition systems. Quick example: let's say our right IWB has the ball and the SS makes a run into the FB-CB space (1st layer). Their defensive line shifts across to narrow that space, so he doesn't get the ball, but that opened up some space on the other side FB-CB, so CMa goes for it (2nd layer). Once again their FB narrows it down, so a lot of space opens up for the IW to explore (3rd layer). 

It's all about someone's movement creating space for someone else explore.

Small sample size as only played with this for the last 7 games of the season.. 9 goals between both IW, SS - 5, CMa - 3 and f9 - 3.

 

2 hours ago, Cult of Football Manager said:

Hi there

first of all there's no hijacking of the thread i've said before its for everyone and i'm delighted you've contributed so no worries there!

 

As for your tactic and by the way zero of these are criticisms! mine isn't perfect either just something to contribute and maybe trigger some thinking on things you hadn't thought about or for people reading to getter a better understanding of what you've got.

I love the patterns you're getting and I can see from your comment & my own testing why you're looking at changing one of the two IWB. If you're happy with a Pep's city 2017-2019 build up shape then there's nothing wrong with it, but if you're looking more this year then I can see the W shape with both IWB next to your DLP. 

 

Yes the mentality does play a role there. I looked at something like this with the striker and both wide players on support duty and I just felt the drop from my tactic was massive in terms of results and if we went behind early getting back into the game to win was difficult. You're Porto right? So i'm guessing domestic games aren't too much of an issue but In those CL games you get knocked out in do you do anything different against those big sides? Have you experimented with an attack duty on a wide player or the striker? I see you explained why you didn't do that but I was wondering if you had tried it.

 

I'm seeing lots of people are preferring IW in their tactic which is great & I'll look to use more in my testing but I still feel my results drop a little but then maybe we can get them in this role to stay wider for longer so we get more realism? I think your very first picture of a game sums up one of the issues for us all where in real life we would ask the player to stay fully wide in that scenario but in the match engine a combination of calculations make your player stay wide compared to their back 4 but not fully wide on the pitch. I've sort of got to a place where if i'm getting the movement and players in the positions i want and creating patterns then i'm happy for now. I'll look to fix the specifics after if they can be fixed

 

One last thing on a thread i saw ( I don't remember which one ) someone quoting a moderator said to be careful with width and that it's not about just how wide your team is but also the directions of your passes. So full width might result in less central combinations and players looking to get it wide maybe? I haven't looked at it yet but thought it was worth mentioning.

 

Love your last part and even in the All or Nothing City series Pep is talking to his assistant I believe about a similar situation saying depending on how they set up is how city will build so I think that's even more like something Pep would do. I haven't gone that far yet because I've rarely needed to especially in the second season but think it's definitely something to consider for people. Definitely if you are happy with what you've got ( anyone i mean here ) and for some reason in the odd game you lose the battle for positions and possession in some games, Like its been said here is there something tactically to adjust in the building phase and can you continue to dominate? Maybe it's not the tactic that has glaring issues but just a specific set up stops you well and you might need to adjust once in a while

Good stuff thank you for the contribution! 

Keep us updated on your results so far in previous seasons etc and how it's changing going forward!

 

 

Thank you very much for the comments!

As for that specific tactic it was..

Nothing for the back 4 & CDM.

RW Mark Tighter, Tackle Harder

LW Mark Tighter, Tackle Harder

BBM, Get further forward, Move into Channels

SS, Mark Tighter, Tackle Harder

F9, Mark Tighter, Tackle Harder

 

With that early one though I found the LW dribbles too much and the RW gets into good areas but does go narrow too early so maybe IW A on the right & WM-A on the left could be good progressions to it?

 

 

 

I only played 7 leagues games with this but World Club Championship approaches so some tougher games on the horizon. Also I'm very curious to see this in action in CL football. At home main challenge will be unlocking those park the bus tactics. In that regard I love 2-3-5 against 4-men defences but also will try to implement a 2-2-6/3-1-6 against 5-men defences.

Changing one of the wide men to an attack is definitely something I've toyed with particularly in though games to add a more direct threat. On the striker maybe against a high line to push it back a bit and give some room to the 4 behind do their thing. 

I also toyed with the idea of focus down the middle to somewhat counter balance that effect of going wide, another thing to try for sure.

All in all, I think we have a solid foundation then we can take in any direction we see fit.

Edited by extudassex2
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Ok i've just been doing some testing and i wanted to share a couple of things before i start my new save. I think i'm actually going to start with City again. Not only is it who I would prefer to play as on this type of save but it will also be interesting to compare stats etc with the first one & to see if i'm having to trade off certain statistics or success to get more realism from the 2020/2021 City team.

 

Findings from tests:

I've found a good solution to the current double pivot set up with a CDM & IWB. I'm happy it looks and plays a lot better in possession to the 2020/2021 City team. The only drawback is at times on the counter teams can get on the ball in the empty space in front of the backline and seem to then destroy us from this position. But the realism and the dominance on the ball just about makes up for that. I think anyway i will find out in my proper save.

431000993_Screenshot2021-03-12at15_38_53.png.9d591caef03801509a02670c590d9598.png

 

If we can ignore everything else for a second and just look at this aspect I feel this or a combination of something like this will get you a good base set up if you're looking to recreate City 2020/2021. The LB & LCDM roles can change and I want to test playing 1CB and the RB on - D duty which may make it better but for now this is good. I also got a few occasions where we opened a lane to go from RCB straight into Sterling's feet a few times.

LB - Sit Narrower, Hold Position, Shoot less often, Dribble less

 

Wide Players:

Now i've heard the multiple calls for Inverted wingers. I have tested a few combinations with them and maybe its my set up around them but i find that even on support duty they dribble way too much to get the desired combinations especially if you have elite wide players who have "run with ball trait". Now with my WM-A I actually set them to run with it more often and they have "Very Attacking" mentality and i still find that they link up better and move better off the ball generally. The only draw back is sometimes they are too narrow but i've found all the roles to have this problem in their own way.

I tried IW-S on the left and my IW-S would stay very wide in the build up even in the middle third, But then he was very deep ( as deep or deeper than the WM-A ) and wouldn't make the same attacking movements as the WM-A would from the same situation. So for an extra 5 -7 yards of width i got more dribbling, less possession, less destructive movement and less threatening overall of a tactic.

So I tried to combine the two because the extra few yards even in the deeper areas of the field were promising so i've just tested this for a game.

824611921_Screenshot2021-03-12at15_39_00.png.354f6597e5a170a1279fc2dbe78b4304.png

As you may notice I've included the underlap instruction but only for one side! The left side I wanted the IW to dribble a little less then he currently was and look to link up with some passes but I didn't want to change the right side.

1056397640_Screenshot2021-03-12at15_49_04.png.a4016a148010be95ec5d7e4cc633824c.png

 

Just in this game I decided to throw hold onto ball onto him to see if this encouraged the link up even though with all of this it might make him less threatening to the back line.

The result442374838_Screenshot2021-03-12at15_33_24.png.1fe1485d9fc1f1372e2c759898a725ac.png

Now its only one game and not only that we scored from a set piece early on. I would always ask people that are getting their patterns near perfect to always post their overall results because I feel if your tactic is very possession heavy in FM and you're looking to get the exact patterns we're after that scoring early can make that a lot easier! Also how often are you not scoring until late and having to change the tactic or going behind? Can you go behind and still be a threat ?

These are questions I always ask myself when i'm creating this type of tactic and I'm about to play United away and will report the findings from that match. Again this is in my test save half way through my second season on my original save.

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