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Should Football Manager remove attributes? | FM21


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vor 5 Minuten schrieb Etebaer:

Yeah, i started in the lower leagues and i have 1 Scout with a scouting of 3...and none other for hire available since 2 seasons :P

Welcome to reality :lol: If you already complaining about that, don't use my megapack:D

Edit: and don't even think about using the planned update, it's getting worse:brock:

Edited by Daveincid
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It's a firm "I don't know" from me. I have played with skins that hide attributes before but always go back. This is mainly because of staff attributes to be honest. I don't really use player attributes as anything more than a guide.

 

In my current save I have a young fullback massively out-performing a player ten years older with much better attributes. The young fullback starts every game.

Beyond helping me make decisions on set piece takers and getting an initial general feel for a player (ie. Is he generally pact/strong/determined) I just ignore them really. It's down to form, match and training performance, dynamics and morale as far as who gets into my side.

I would be ok with them going, but would want to be able to measure staff ability somehow.

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Yeah, I was slightly concerned with how to gauge staff ability to start with also, however, personally, I’ve found masking their attribute and reputation ratings quite liberating. I can still tell roughly how good they are by setting the thresholds of what colour my little boxes are (I actually have them pretty wide now) as I enjoy the vagueness of it.

I can still tell how good my coaching system is by the bars that tell me where I sit with regards to the rest of the league I’m in, and if a scout has green (a miracle in my current save!) in judging player potential/ current ability then that’s good enough for me.

Personally, not knowing exactly what anything is adds to the enjoyment and challenge. It means I look more at all the other metrics that are available in the game to decide if a player plays for me or not, and things like a member of staff’s employment history is of more interest to me than has been before.

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I play with the hidden attributes' skin and now I feel seeing the attributes is "cheating"! It's really fun to play this way and I honestly like it way more. But it's true that scout reports needs an overhaul. And that right now for example you wouldn't know by watching a match if a player is a good dribbler or an excellent one.

Having said that, for me the fun is that you end up having always 2 or 3 similar players for one position. With a lot of green stars all around in the same skills. But for one reason or another, one player just plays better. Maybe if you see the attributes it's the worst of the options and you wouldn't choose it. In FM20 I remember playing against my u20 team and seeing a great performance from a CM. By his stats he was crap, but I've promoted him and his first season with me was a very good one. And he always tried to open the ball to the flanks even if he didn't had the trait or the vision to do it. Other players had better attributes, but in the same role and position, only he did that, don't ask me why. And in a 4-4-2 with two quick wingers, that was exactly what I needed from my CM.

What I say is that sometimes a player "just fits" and this way of playing makes you watch a lot more of details than just the numbers on his profile.

 

 

 

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Tyburns right, its liberating.  Just like the hearts for fitness.  Like I said earlier I'd genuinely play 94% over 92% which is mad

My vision for it is to give the players more personality so they aren't just a load of numbers. 

As others have said though it would be nice to have a more comprehensive coach report and obviously the 3D representation being better would really help

It's worth mentioning as well for those who don't know, the "no attribute" skins that people are talking about here in most cases do have some kind of visual representation of the attributes, they are just in more vague ranges.

 

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Brother Ben:

they are just in more vague ranges.

Which I personally think is perfect. I mean if you watch a football-game, you are able to say: "This guy has great technique". But I couldn't say: "Oh this guy definetly has 18 in technique". So the range shows IMO exactly what a human being is able to judge :)

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14 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Which I personally think is perfect. I mean if you watch a football-game, you are able to say: "This guy has great technique". But I couldn't say: "Oh this guy definitely has 18 in technique". So the range shows IMO exactly what a human being is able to judge :)

Exactly that.  The range you decide to use becomes a difficultly level of sorts too.

I've mentioned elsewhere but I have my ranges like this in England tier 6 (after a lot of tinkering)

1-5 - He's bad at this

6-13 - not an area of concern

14-20 - He's top drawer at this

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Brother Ben said:

Exactly that.  The range you decide to use becomes a difficultly level of sorts too.

I've mentioned elsewhere but I have my ranges like this in England tier 6 (after a lot of tinkering)

1-5 - He's bad at this

6-13 - not an area of concern

14-20 - He's top drawer at this

 

 

 

Pretty much what I have. Again, vagueness is beauty here :) 

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1 hour ago, Daveincid said:

Which I personally think is perfect. I mean if you watch a football-game, you are able to say: "This guy has great technique". But I couldn't say: "Oh this guy definetly has 18 in technique". So the range shows IMO exactly what a human being is able to judge :)

An issue with this though is that we can tell the difference between a technique of 20 and a technique of 16, but the attribute skins would group them together.  One is the absolute best technique possible whereas the other is top quality technique.We probably can't tell the difference between 18 and 20 technique though.

It's even more pronounced at lower leagues where the difference between an 11 and 15 is massive but would be grouped together.

This is why I think the attribute skins arent the answer and the options are either put all that information in a coach report/use attribute ranges like when you are  scouting players and then also have attributes be perceived attributes that are based on a scouts/coaches JPA

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vor 1 Minute schrieb francis#17:

An issue with this though is that we can tell the difference between a technique of 20 and a technique of 16, but the attribute skins would group them together.  One is the absolute best technique possible whereas the other is top quality technique.We probably can't tell the difference between 18 and 20 technique though.

It's even more pronounced at lower leagues where the difference between an 11 and 15 is massive but would be grouped together.

This is why I think the attribute skins arent the answer and the options are either put all that information in a coach report/use attribute ranges like when you are  scouting players and then also have attributes be perceived attributes that are based on a scouts/coaches JPA

Disagree, this is exactly the thing we can't tell. Attributes are often linked together, so it's also not about a single attribute. the range gives you a less clear picture about a player, which should be the case in general, even for your own players. This also represents the case that some players just don't bring their skills in a particular team or tactic. He isn't bad, it just doesn't work for whatever reason. 

So for me, this way is the best option. 

 

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The short answer: No!

The long answer: HELL NO!

The very long answer: For me, I know that real life managers don't have attributes of their players, but despite being simulation of real life, we can't forget, this remains a game (computer, tablet, mobile and console game). As such it needs to have the gaming features in it and should be part of core of the game.

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I would love more even more details in the reports but as of now, I do fine with them the way they are. I don’t play with complete removal of the attributes, they are just masked better with icons (stars in my case).

 

I now have to look at other things to decide on instead of just choosing a player with 17 finishing over a 16. It also makes for better gameplay because attributes work together, a striker with 14 finishing may score more goals for you than a striker with 17 finishing.

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17 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

I would love more even more details in the reports but as of now, I do fine with them the way they are. I don’t play with complete removal of the attributes, they are just masked better with icons (stars in my case).

 

I now have to look at other things to decide on instead of just choosing a player with 17 finishing over a 16. It also makes for better gameplay because attributes work together, a striker with 14 finishing may score more goals for you than a striker with 17 finishing.

Even with attributes you shouldnt be choosing a striker because his finishing is one point or even 4/5 points higher

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7 minutes ago, francis#17 said:

Even with attributes you shouldnt be choosing a striker because his finishing is one point or even 4/5 points higher

But some people do. Whether its FM or anything in the real world, people tend to think more is better and prefer nicer things.

 

Ive been guilty of playing someone over another because his attributes “looked” better despite the other guy playing better.

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1 hour ago, Daveincid said:

Disagree, this is exactly the thing we can't tell. Attributes are often linked together, so it's also not about a single attribute. the range gives you a less clear picture about a player, which should be the case in general, even for your own players. This also represents the case that some players just don't bring their skills in a particular team or tactic. He isn't bad, it just doesn't work for whatever reason. 

So for me, this way is the best option. 

 

The difference between heading of 6 and heading of 10 is very significant. However I agree with you that all attributes are linked anyway

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vor 1 Minute schrieb francis#17:

The difference between heading of 6 and heading of 10 is very significant. However I agree with you that all attributes are linked anyway

Attribute-wise yes, but again, if you are watching a game in real life, you can say: this player is very bad, bad, okay, good, very good and out of this world. So there are maximal 6 different ways to judge a players specific attribute. It's perfect that in the background there are numbers from 1-20, but IMO it's not that realistic to rely on that ingame. As @Brother Ben wrote down below. YOU already judge on your own in that range, so the skin just overtakes this conclusion for you. 

 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Brother Ben:

Exactly that.  The range you decide to use becomes a difficultly level of sorts too.

I've mentioned elsewhere but I have my ranges like this in England tier 6 (after a lot of tinkering)

1-5 - He's bad at this

6-13 - not an area of concern

14-20 - He's top drawer at this

 

 

 

 

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It all boils down to personal choice. If you want absolutes then the game provides this for you.

If you’d rather something more realistic/challenging/interesting/vague then not having absolutes, but rather an approximation, is appropriately managed through no attribute skins.

Not having stars either further adds to this concept, and personally I love it. Has totally rejuvenated the game, for me, and is more akin to what I would consider “realistic”.

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On 24/02/2021 at 15:35, Daveincid said:

This is actually a great skin, thank you for sharing the source but there is one issue the match sharpness settings and fatigue indicators have gone. Is that normal?

image.png.161f1e79972520906c8b50beed329838.png

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb Crazy_Ivan:

This is actually a great skin, thank you for sharing the source but there is one issue the match sharpness settings and fatigue indicators have gone. Is that normal?

image.png.161f1e79972520906c8b50beed329838.png

oh! I don't know! I will have a look, but I am not the creator of it^^

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1 minute ago, Daveincid said:

oh! I don't know! I will have a look, but I am not the creator of it^^

Yeah the creator just seems difficult to contact so wondered if someone had the same issue. :)

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12 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

This is actually a great skin, thank you for sharing the source but there is one issue the match sharpness settings and fatigue indicators have gone. Is that normal?

image.png.161f1e79972520906c8b50beed329838.png

Reason why this should be an option within the game.  It avoids any skin issues ranging from a bug to simply not liking the skin.

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vor 10 Minuten schrieb Crazy_Ivan:

Yeah the creator just seems difficult to contact so wondered if someone had the same issue. :)

5.png.2fd3acdde9c80c1fcdc233deb904d9d3.png

It works for me, I think you just need to auto-adjust the coloumns.

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Just now, Daveincid said:

5.png.2fd3acdde9c80c1fcdc233deb904d9d3.png

It works for me, I think you just need to auto-adjust the coloumns.

No, it's not that I just tried it but thank you so much at least I know the issue is on my side. 

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