41221 struggling to make chances

[Mushy80]

Hi guys can any of you tactical geniuses suggest anything. I’m playing ok but not creating many good chances, most of my goals coming from set plays or long shots and just not creating many good chances ending most games with XG of either under 1 or slightly over

[frukox]

1 hour ago, Mushy80 said:

Hi guys can any of you tactical geniuses suggest anything. I’m playing ok but not creating many good chances, most of my goals coming from set plays or long shots and just not creating many good chances ending most games with XG of either under 1 or slightly over

TIs and selection of duty and roles contradict itself terribly. 

Your left flank is defensively terribly vulnerable and attackwise lacks proper support. 

Secondly, some of the TIs aren't needed there like Distribute to... when you already play out of defence. 

Your out of possession instructions indicates you want an ultra-high and ultra-aggressive press, which is too risky even for a top team but how are you going to create space for IFAs when there is nearly no space behind defence because you compress space unnecessarily in the final third? Does your CFS support them properly and be a passing option for them?

Do you find your two BPDs to lose the ball too much with risky passes? Then, turn the right CB into a boring CDD as VVD is a worldclass ballplaying defender. 

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by frukox

[Mushy80]

1 hour ago, frukox said:

TIs and selection of duty and roles contradict itself terribly. 

Your left flank is defensively terribly vulnerable and attackwise lacks proper support. 

Secondly, some of the TIs aren't needed there like Distribute to... when you already play out of defence. 

Your out of possession instructions indicates you want an ultra-high and ultra-aggressive press, which is too risky even for a top team but how are you going to create space for IFAs when there is nearly no space behind defence because you compress space unnecessarily in the final third? Does your CFS support them properly and be a passing option for them?

Do you find your two BPDs to lose the ball too much with risky passes? Then, turn the right CB into a boring CDD as VVD is a worldclass ballplaying defender. 

 

Hi thanks for your input what would you suggest doing on the left to improve it? I put the left wingback on defend to help out as I had the midfielder and winger both on attack would changing the midfield to support roll be an idea or does the rolls need changing completely?  I’ve been considering putting the the cml into a playmaker with support?

Edited February 13, 2021 by Mushy80

[zyfon5]

3 hours ago, Mushy80 said:

Hi guys can any of you tactical geniuses suggest anything. I’m playing ok but not creating many good chances, most of my goals coming from set plays or long shots and just not creating many good chances ending most games with XG of either under 1 or slightly over

Because of the roles you have chosen the opposition can hold hands together to deny your attack and call it a day. There is no one to recycle the ball to when your team cannot find a breakthrough because every one has rushed forward to attack and the half back is not in midfield. So your team will end up rushing a shot or lose the ball easily. Coupled that with work ball into box only makes your attack worse. In short your attack is too narrow and makes it easy to defend.

On defence the instructions are too aggressive with the roles you have chosen so no one to stop any attack if you are getting countered. Having Van dijk will help but I am not sure how much he can do when there is no protection to the defence line. Prevent short GK distribution is also a terrible idea when you only have one striker up front because one striker can only mark one defender and when the opposition has at least 2 CB your striker is left chasing shadows. A 41221 formation is also not suited for a very high press because of the natural gaps in the formation in the area between the AML/AMR, the CMR/CML and the LB/RB which the opposition can very easily exploit when you do not have two strikers to block the passing lanes to the channels. You only want to press very high with this formation if you are facing a very narrow formation and no opposition player can exploit this gap.

Edited February 13, 2021 by zyfon5

[frukox]

1 minute ago, Mushy80 said:

Hi thanks for your input what would you suggest doing on the left to improve it? I put the left wingback on defend to help out as I had the midfielder and winger both on attack would changing the midfield to support roll be an idea or does the rolls need changing completely? 

Yeah, you have to think about on the whole when designing a tactic so only changing the left flank would not be enough. If you want both Salah and Mane to score, they are going to be in the box anyway because they are hardcoded into that area due to ME design(AML/AMR) . Then, you have to send your fullbacks to attack(doesn't necessarily mean attack duty btw) which means 3-2-5 attacking shape. Then, decide which two people are going to recycle possession, shield the central channel against counterattacks and change the point of attack by switches of play to disrupt opposition defensive shape? The rest should be easy.

[Mushy80]

2 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

Because of the roles you have chosen the opposition can hold hands together to deny your attack and call it a day. There is no one to recycle the ball to when your team cannot find a breakthrough because every one has rushed forward to attack and the half back is not in midfield. So your team will end up rushing a shot or lose the ball easily. Coupled that with work ball into box only makes your attack worse. In short your attack is too narrow and makes it easy to defend.

On defence the instructions are too aggressive with the roles you have chosen so no one to stop any attack if you are getting countered. Having Van dijk will help but I am not sure how much he can do when there is no protection to the defence line. Prevent short GK distribution is also a terrible idea when you only have one striker up front because one striker can only mark one defender and when the opposition has at least 2 CB your striker is left chasing shadows. A 41221 formation is also not suited for a very high press because of the natural gaps in the formation in the area between the AML/AMR, the CMR/CML and the LB/RB which the opposition can very easily exploit when you do not have two strikers to block the passing lanes to the channels.

Thank you for the input in terms of helping recycle the ball I guess changing the mezz to a advanced playmaker on support? Would help that. In terms of protecting the defence I thought the half back would do that should I change that to an anchor man? And I guess changing one of the widemen to a winger from inside forward to help create more width?
 

sorry for all the questions but not played fm since 15 so trying to get used to what the me and positions do

[Mushy80]

So based on what you guys have said do you think this setup would be better in terms of over all team play? Again sorry for all the questions but not played since 2015 so struggling with the new tactical positions etc I’m trying to avoid putting fullbacks into attack made as read somewhere shouldn’t have both widemen on attack to went with support

 

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Mushy80

[frukox]

14 minutes ago, Mushy80 said:

So based on what you guys have said do you think this setup would be better in terms of over all team play? Again sorry for all the questions but not played since 2015 so struggling with the new tactical positions etc I’m trying to avoid putting fullbacks into attack made as read somewhere shouldn’t have both widemen on attack to went with support

TIs are okay. Still I can't see a system that can keep possession effectively here especially on Positive mentality. You need to have your players close to each other for keeping possession effectively. 

APA will be more direct than you'd like under Positive mentality.

Two IFAs will still go for a direct run at goal whether there is space or not. 

Fabinho is not such a player to be shoehorned into such a limited role. Giving defend duty will not help him get second balls or play defence splitting passes from behind as much as you'd like. Try a DMS there. He'd be a pseudo playmaker behind due to his traits. Then, change Henderson into a simple CMS and look which part of the pitch he's going to control. 

 

[Mushy80]

26 minutes ago, frukox said:

TIs are okay. Still I can't see a system that can keep possession effectively here especially on Positive mentality. You need to have your players close to each other for keeping possession effectively. 

APA will be more direct than you'd like under Positive mentality.

Two IFAs will still go for a direct run at goal whether there is space or not. 

Fabinho is not such a player to be shoehorned into such a limited role. Giving defend duty will not help him get second balls or play defence splitting passes from behind as much as you'd like. Try a DMS there. He'd be a pseudo playmaker behind due to his traits. Then, change Henderson into a simple CMS and look which part of the pitch he's going to control. 

 

Once again thanks for the advice would change team mentality to balanced ? And maybe sacrifice mane or salah (thinking mane most) and change them to a winger to stay out wide and create more space or even put one or both on support roll

Edited February 13, 2021 by Mushy80

[frukox]

8 minutes ago, Mushy80 said:

Once again thanks for the advice would change team mentality to balanced ? And maybe sacrifice mane or salah (thinking mane most) and change them to a winger to stay out wide and create more space or even put one or both on support roll

I don't think it's about changing the mentality. Rather it's about your roles and their interaction with each other. I strongly advise to read role descriptions. I'm not a fan of the same two roles in a system except they play the role in a different manner due to traits, footedness, etc.

[Mushy80]

10 minutes ago, frukox said:

I don't think it's about changing the mentality. Rather it's about your roles and their interaction with each other. I strongly advise to read role descriptions. I'm not a fan of the same two roles in a system except they play the role in a different manner due to traits, footedness, etc.

Thank you your advice has been very helpful and insightful 

[zyfon5]

1 hour ago, Mushy80 said:

Thank you for the input in terms of helping recycle the ball I guess changing the mezz to a advanced playmaker on support? Would help that. In terms of protecting the defence I thought the half back would do that should I change that to an anchor man? And I guess changing one of the widemen to a winger from inside forward to help create more width?
 

sorry for all the questions but not played fm since 15 so trying to get used to what the me and positions do

The advice given by another user are all solid advice but I will suggest you to read the guides pinned in this forum at least on the new roles. FM15 is very different to the present game and many elements have been added since. Your latest tactic looks fine to me but still need some tweaks. Maybe read up on the guides first and post your latest tactic and let us know how does the team performs. 

[frukox]

2 minutes ago, Mushy80 said:

Thank you your advice has been very helpful and insightful 

You're welcome. Try to select such roles that all of the roles are in an immediate support area and don't tend to rush the game too much. You must answer these questions when creating a balanced tactic. 

1) How does my team fare against other teams in the league? Liverpool is one of the best teams in the world. Thus, most opposition will deny you any space you can find. Thus, you have to know the art of creating space against low blocks.

2) How can I create space against a deep defence? You can lower LOE by one notch to let teams trying to play a cautious possession game and win the ball in midfield and hit them before they know it is going to come or you can overload one side with roles which would be in close proximity, then use Henderson or Fabinho to switch play with a defence splitting pass to an attacking role on the other side-hopefully a 2v1 or play a hardcore high tempo style with at least three or four attacking duties to overwhelm deep defences by brute force.

3) 4-1-2-3 is a bottom-heavy system which would struggle against 2 DM or 3 centre backs and 1 dm or 2 dm systems due to its nature if you want to play a possession game. Against such teams, I strongly advise you to switch to a top-heavy system.

[Mushy80]

22 minutes ago, frukox said:

You're welcome. Try to select such roles that all of the roles are in an immediate support area and don't tend to rush the game too much. You must answer these questions when creating a balanced tactic. 

1) How does my team fare against other teams in the league? Liverpool is one of the best teams in the world. Thus, most opposition will deny you any space you can find. Thus, you have to know the art of creating space against low blocks.

2) How can I create space against a deep defence? You can lower LOE by one notch to let teams trying to play a cautious possession game and win the ball in midfield and hit them before they know it is going to come or you can overload one side with roles which would be in close proximity, then use Henderson or Fabinho to switch play with a defence splitting pass to an attacking role on the other side-hopefully a 2v1 or play a hardcore high tempo style with at least three or four attacking duties to overwhelm deep defences by brute force.

3) 4-1-2-3 is a bottom-heavy system which would struggle against 2 DM or 3 centre backs and 1 dm or 2 dm systems due to its nature if you want to play a possession game. Against such teams, I strongly advise you to switch to a top-heavy system.

I’m doing well in league just won the league in first season but that was with a downloaded formation as was my first season playing the game so just wanted to try and see what others where doing before trying my own stuff, this season played 10 games and top of league with my formation but as you say being Liverpool does rather help things.

 

made a few changes and first game beat spurs 5 2 and did seem to create more chances especially for striker, will keep tweaking along the way 

[Experienced Defender]

I don't know what style of football you want to play, but the setup of roles and duties - which is the most important element of any tactic - is fairly unbalanced in both tactics you posted in the screenshots. 

A coupe of tips in that respect:

- when you play a mezzala on attack duty, the wide forward on the same side should be played on support - both for the sake of optimal space creation and interaction between the roles and in terms of defensive solidity

- there is basically no need for a role such CWB in a non-narrow formation, because CWB benefits from being the sole player on his flank and is therefore more suited to narrow systems

- A conservative fullback role such as WB on defend (as well as FB on support or below) duty can fail to provide proper wide support to his inside-oriented wide partner on a consistent basis, so WB on support duty is a better choice in my experience

And so on...

[frukox]

4 minutes ago, Mushy80 said:

I’m doing well in league just won the league in first season but that was with a downloaded formation as was my first season playing the game so just wanted to try and see what others where doing before trying my own stuff, this season played 10 games and top of league with my formation but as you say being Liverpool does rather help things.

 

made a few changes and first game beat spurs 5 2 and did seem to create more chances especially for striker, will keep tweaking along the way 

Shots on goal ratio is really good. So keep going with tactic but tweak it when you see something is not working in the way you want but tweak it one by one. 

[Mushy80]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

I don't know what style of football you want to play, but the setup of roles and duties - which is the most important element of any tactic - is fairly unbalanced in both tactics you posted in the screenshots. 

A coupe of tips in that respect:

- when you play a mezzala on attack duty, the wide forward on the same side should be played on support - both for the sake of optimal space creation and interaction between the roles and in terms of defensive solidity

- there is basically no need for a role such CWB in a non-narrow formation, because CWB benefits from being the sole player on his flank and is therefore more suited to narrow systems

- A conservative fullback role such as WB on defend (as well as FB on support or below) duty can fail to provide proper wide support to his inside-oriented wide partner on a consistent basis, so WB on support duty is a better choice in my experience

And so on...

Thank you some good tips appreciated