Positioning of Half-Back and Inverted Wing-Backs In Possession

[Anexxias]

Hi guys,

Very simple question, so apologies if it doesn't deserve its own thread.

This is my current system. It's working really well, but I'm not happy with the positioning of the HB and IWB.

I'm finding the HB is standing too far forwards from the CBs in possession (I want him to literally be sat as a 3rd CB), and the IWBs are too close to the backline. I've tried setting pressing less on the HB, and getting further forwards on the IWBs (who I want to be attacking the half-spaces behind the strikers), but their average positions aren't budging.

Any thoughts/ideas appreciated.

Cheers!

Edited January 27, 2021 by Anexxias

[crusadertsar]

33 minutes ago, Anexxias said:

Hi guys,

Very simple question, so apologies if it doesn't deserve its own thread.

This is my current system. It's working really well, but I'm not happy with the positioning of the HB and IWB.

I'm finding the HB is standing too far forwards from the CBs in possession (I want him to literally be sat as a 3rd CB), and the IWBs are too close to the backline. I've tried setting pressing less on the HB, and getting further forwards on the IWBs (who I want to be attacking the half-spaces behind the strikers), but their average positions aren't budging.

Any thoughts/ideas appreciated.

Cheers!

Unfortunately HB never really did this properly in this or previous games. It's a limitation of the game i guess. It won't act like a third CB even though theoretically it should. More like a very deep DM.

Regarding the IWBs. They behave that way because you have a player in DM strata. To get them to act more like IWBs you shouldn't use any DM roles.

Edited January 27, 2021 by crusadertsar

[Anexxias]

15 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Unfortunately HB never really did this properly in this or previous games. It's a limitation of the game i guess. It won't act like a third CB even though theoretically it should. More like a very deep DM.

Regarding the IWBs. They behave that way because you have a player in DM strata. To get them to act more like IWBs you shouldn't use any DM roles.

That's annoying about the HB. I guess if it's going well then I shouldn't worry too much, but it would have been nice aesthetically to see the back 3 really come into its own.

On the IWBs - I thought that they would only not cut inside if you have a DM in their strata, as it were? I.e if I had 2 CDMs they wouldn't cut in, but with 1 centrally they still will. They aren't acting as wing-backs (they are coming inside) it's just that they aren't quite playing far enough up the pitch as I'd expect. Is changing them to (A) going to be the only option to encourage that?

[hehehemann]

duplicate post, see below post

Edited January 27, 2021 by hehehemann

[hehehemann]

I'm using a HB with two IWB-s and they seem to get ahead of the HB whenever we have possession. 

On support duty they sit in the midfield area, on attack duty they will make the runs into the box quite frequently.

The below video shows a goal from the right sided IWB who was on attack duty at the time. The Left sided IWB was on support duty.

 

[Experienced Defender]

22 hours ago, Anexxias said:

I'm finding the HB is standing too far forwards from the CBs in possession (I want him to literally be sat as a 3rd CB)

HB drops deep (i.e. between the CBs) only in the early stage of the build-up play, but as the attack progresses - he moves forward as well (and even more so if your team is dominating the match and camping in the opposition half). So that's normal behavior for a HB. 

The most defensive-midned DM role in terms of positioning is the anchor man, but even he will not literally sit between the CBs - simply because he is a midfielder after all, not defender. 

[Coleman]

Can the desired effect be achieved using a libero in a back 3? That might be the exact opposite of the HB, but maybe he'll stay a little deeper in possession.

[MadOnion]

On 27/01/2021 at 17:13, Anexxias said:

Hi guys,

Very simple question, so apologies if it doesn't deserve its own thread.

This is my current system. It's working really well, but I'm not happy with the positioning of the HB and IWB.

I'm finding the HB is standing too far forwards from the CBs in possession (I want him to literally be sat as a 3rd CB), and the IWBs are too close to the backline. I've tried setting pressing less on the HB, and getting further forwards on the IWBs (who I want to be attacking the half-spaces behind the strikers), but their average positions aren't budging.

Any thoughts/ideas appreciated.

Cheers!

The HB is quite an aggressive role. I play with one and he goes everywhere, but he's also very good (Florentino Luis).
There are 2 thing you can do to help this:

• Teach him to stay back at all times (PPM)
• Ask your goalkeeper to distribute to him

I found these two help achieve that behaviour during build up, but since I play counter-press and a higher defensive line (as you do), he will naturally venture forward if the chance is there.

[Anexxias]

Thanks for the replies guys. How do we think it would effect the tactic if I changed the HB into a CB on Stopper in the middle of a back 3? Sort of like @Coleman is saying.

I basically want the back 3 to help build possession from the back and allow us to play the ball effectively into the final third, and then stay back as the wide 3 that cover for counter attacks when we are attacking.

Would 3 CBs leave the midfield too open? Or am I actually right in thinking this might work better than a HB(D)?

@Experienced Defender

@MadOnion

@hehehemann

[hehehemann]

Its all about space with IWBs, you have to create the space for them to utilize. In my tactic a few posts above, my aim is to use the two IWBs as central midfielders (I retrain CMs to IWBs). If there is no one occupying that space they do play as CMs when we are in possession and out of possession they run back to cover the wings.

The mentality of your team also plays a big role in the way your IWBs and HB interact. I dont use above balanced mentality as these three players are the key to my system and I want them playing as a triangle like in that screenshot I posted. I also dont want my HB to be too far away from the two CD's to provide that defensive cover. Anything higher than balanced for team mentality and the HB seems to advance further than where I want him. I can switch an IWB to attack duty if I want to threaten the opposition penalty area more but in general the aim is to have them as supporting cast members to recycle possession and or look for through balls to the three players ahead.

From what your wanting, with a basic back 3 to hold the ball starting your possession, you might as well go with a back three as you want them flat. Having the two outside CDs to stay wider instruction will help them spread out. 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Anexxias said:

Would 3 CBs leave the midfield too open?

Depends on how you set up the rest of the tactic (besides the quality of your players and their ability, of course). 

[joetheshmoe77]

Hey I can’t say for certain if this would work In FM21 but have you tried telling both your CDs to stay wider? Ideally your HB will naturally drop more to fill the space in the middle and the IWBs will push up a bit more. 

[Xavier Lukhas]

Bump.

I haven't tested that in a while, but does anyone knows if the HB positioning has been altered since FM17? When a HB was on the pitch, the CBs would split wide only if you used players in the WB strata, not the FB strata. With the (locked) thread below, what I mean should be more explicit. I had drifted away from using HBs as a result, favouring DLP(D) instead to recycle possession from deep. I had found that HBs with FBs would make the CBs leave odd gaps straight in the middle of the pitch between them for some reason. It annoys me since in theory a HB would be my ideal DM role; even more so if it had what I call the "playmaker's bias" (playmaker roles are seeked out more often my their team mates: using a DLP(D) allows me not to run any playmaking role in CMs while preventing the ball from going too wide since the DLP(D) can spread the play to the players close to him because of his pretty low Mentality).