Southampton 4-4-2 [help].

[Gilberto Silva]

Started a Southampton save with the goal of trying to continue Ralph's philosophy and playing style but having trouble creating chances mainly at the moment. Current tactics below, any pointers would be appreciated!

[Experienced Defender]

In terms of roles and duties, I would just swap the sides of your CMs (DLP in MCL and CMde in MCR) and change the RM (Walcott) into WM on attack duty.

But your out-of-possession instructions are the biggest issue IMO. You want to defend aggressively while having poor defensive compactness, which is never a good idea, especially in a formation with no DM. 

Plus, you don't need specific distribution to CBs when you already use play out of defence + shorter passing. 

Btw, I think the formation Ralph uses with the Saints is more like 424 (with 2 DMs) than simple flat 442.

[MegaAlbin_88]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

In terms of roles and duties, I would just swap the sides of your CMs (DLP in MCL and CMde in MCR) and change the RM (Walcott) into WM on attack duty.

But your out-of-possession instructions are the biggest issue IMO. You want to defend aggressively while having poor defensive compactness, which is never a good idea, especially in a formation with no DM. 

Plus, you don't need specific distribution to CBs when you already use play out of defence + shorter passing. 

Btw, I think the formation Ralph uses with the Saints is more like 424 (with 2 DMs) than simple flat 442.

How would you set up Ralphs 424 with 2 DMs Experienced Defender? it would be really nice to see :D 

Asking because but like u say i feel they also play more of a 424 when i look at their games irl. But i don't really know how i would set it up to be honest! 

[Gilberto Silva]

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In terms of roles and duties, I would just swap the sides of your CMs (DLP in MCL and CMde in MCR) and change the RM (Walcott) into WM on attack duty.

But your out-of-possession instructions are the biggest issue IMO. You want to defend aggressively while having poor defensive compactness, which is never a good idea, especially in a formation with no DM. 

Plus, you don't need specific distribution to CBs when you already use play out of defence + shorter passing. 

Btw, I think the formation Ralph uses with the Saints is more like 424 (with 2 DMs) than simple flat 442.

Thanks for the advice, the only point on the MR role is that I really want him cutting inside and playing in the half-spaces, is that still do-able with a wide midfielder if I tell him to sit narrower? 

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, Gilberto Silva said:

Thanks for the advice, the only point on the MR role is that I really want him cutting inside and playing in the half-spaces, is that still do-able with a wide midfielder if I tell him to sit narrower? 

You can tell him both to sit narrower and cut inside. The reason I love the WM role is its high degree of flexibility in attack and defensive responsibility compared to winger and IW. On top of that, Walcott as a player does not really look like a playmaker of any kind. 

[Experienced Defender]

9 hours ago, MegaAlbin_88 said:

How would you set up Ralphs 424 with 2 DMs Experienced Defender? it would be really nice to see

Asking because but like u say i feel they also play more of a 424 when i look at their games irl. But i don't really know how i would set it up to be honest! 

I cannot tell how exactly I would replicate Ralph, simply because I haven't analyzed his style in so much detail as to be able to do that (even though I love how Southampton play and enjoy watching their matches). But what I believe is clear is that they play fast and attractive football with a lot of movement and creativity. Defense-wise, it's obvious that they use counter-pressing in defensive transitions, which makes their defensive style appear more aggressive in people's eyes than it actually is. 

To me, their style is closest to some sort of fluid counter-attack (not to be confused with the FM preset tactic ). 

[Flußkrebs]

10 hours ago, MegaAlbin_88 said:

How would you set up Ralphs 424 with 2 DMs Experienced Defender? it would be really nice to see

Asking because but like u say i feel they also play more of a 424 when i look at their games irl. But i don't really know how i would set it up to be honest! 

This was from the beta- you might find it useful. To be honest I think it is less close to how Southampton have been playing this season, and more like how they were playing last season. This season they are being less front foot in possession in my opinion. Out of possession, they are still pressing the 3rd most intensely in the PL (3rd lowest PPDA after Leeds and Liverpool) but their attacks are actually not as direct as they used to be. In a trivial sense, they are pressing less than last season (but only because every team is pressing less than last season, Covid fatigue presumably). But relatively speaking they are still a gegenpressing team out of possession. They have actually been a little more conservative once they win the ball back (53% average possesssion, but only 13th in the league for number of passes they complete within 20 yards of goal). Although imo these new characteristics have helped contribute to them being worse this season than at the end of last season, so maybe just take the bits you like and run with them. 

I guess the two ways Southampton attack are either as transitional counter attacks once they win the ball high up the pitch or quite patiently via build up from the back, content to pass the ball back to the goaly to build the attack again from scratch if necessary. Now, as a general rule the former type of attack is more dangerous, and especially in Soton's case as their players aren't quite at the elite level as some of the other patient possession teams might have available. This season, they are using more of the latter and less of the former as they are pressing less (like I said, as all teams are) and that's my theory why their attack has been a little less potent.  

Personally to aid the press I would use a 424 DM still like above. The front 2 should both be roaming and will move wide and interchange with each other and with the hybrid 10s/wingers. The strikers will drop deep, move to the byline etc, sometimes at the same time, usually one at a time. Some combination of PFs/PFa/CFs/CFa/F9 would be my choice. If you do play a front 4 (like in my post) then I'd suggest ensuring the wingers are on support duties so they track back. And maybe lowering the mentality to balanced. The midfield duo I would have not as DM(d) and Vol(s) like in my post (that was more for FM balance and effectiveness) but maybe a DLP and BWM/DM combo. 

KWP and Bertrand get forward quite a bit and are usually tasked with providing width so pick your roles as suits the tactic (FBa/WBs/WBa/CWB maybe).

Hope that helps (Tifo have a good video from November, but imo it is more useful for the general patterns of build up play and such rather than necessarily the minutiae of how they've played the last couple of months).

[ashlfcowen]

14 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In terms of roles and duties, I would just swap the sides of your CMs (DLP in MCL and CMde in MCR) and change the RM (Walcott) into WM on attack duty.

But your out-of-possession instructions are the biggest issue IMO. You want to defend aggressively while having poor defensive compactness, which is never a good idea, especially in a formation with no DM. 

Plus, you don't need specific distribution to CBs when you already use play out of defence + shorter passing. 

Btw, I think the formation Ralph uses with the Saints is more like 424 (with 2 DMs) than simple flat 442.

Is having a specific distribution to CBs when he already has POD & short passing a detriment to his overall tactic? Genuine question. 

If so, I wonder why SI have included as a TI in the Vertical Tiki-Taka preset. 

[Experienced Defender]

26 minutes ago, ashlfcowen said:

Is having a specific distribution to CBs when he already has POD & short passing a detriment to his overall tactic?

Tactical overkill IMO. 

 

27 minutes ago, ashlfcowen said:

If so, I wonder why SI have included as a TI in the Vertical Tiki-Taka preset. 

Who said that preset tactics are well designed? I haven't. Moreover, I never ever use them precisely because they are so full of overkill.

[ashlfcowen]

7 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Tactical overkill IMO. 

 

Who said that preset tactics are well designed? I haven't. Moreover, I never ever use them precisely because they are so full of overkill.

Nobody said they were well designed - you (as in the gen pop who aren't too familiar with tactics) just assume they would be 

[Flußkrebs]

Just to chime in on the overkill of adding pass to CBs whilst also having POD and shorter passing- usually I would tend to agree, but I have to say that in FM21 I have noticed an increased likelihood of Keepers kicking it long despite having, say, 2 of those 3 instructions. So if you did want a "play out of defence in nearly all situations" (e.g. 2020 Arsenal) then I'd be inclined to add all 3 instructions. Not that I'm saying that that suits this Soton tactic, but it isn't as much of a no-no in FM21 as previously, imo.

[crusadertsar]

7 hours ago, Flußkrebs said:

Just to chime in on the overkill of adding pass to CBs whilst also having POD and shorter passing- usually I would tend to agree, but I have to say that in FM21 I have noticed an increased likelihood of Keepers kicking it long despite having, say, 2 of those 3 instructions. So if you did want a "play out of defence in nearly all situations" (e.g. 2020 Arsenal) then I'd be inclined to add all 3 instructions. Not that I'm saying that that suits this Soton tactic, but it isn't as much of a no-no in FM21 as previously, imo.

Completely agree. I tend to play mostly with high pressing possession tactics so I have both short passing, distribute from back and high line selected most of the time. And I still frequently see my sweeper keeper kicking it long to my forwards. Which enrages me every time. They just don't want to follow instructions! But adding either or both pass to fullbacks/centrebacks seems to reduce this tendency somewhat.

Edited January 26, 2021 by crusadertsar