Why is my tactic not working?

[Exoseed]

Hi everyone,

So for starters: I'm a total noob at this game. First time playing and I have one issue: my team just doesn't score. Like, at all. To the point where it's started to look quite ridiculous to be honest, because we do have some occasions, even against better teams. 

I play a 532 with a positive mentality. I'm rather satisfied with the defensive side, since even if we're usually dominated in terms of xG we don't take that much goals. In my first 5 matches in the season I had 4 loses (0-1 each time, except one 0-2 against Lyon who scored a second goal at the end because went all in to try to get a draw) and one draw, 1-1 with a last minute goal on our side from a weird long ball from the defense.

I tried not to use too many TIs. What I want to achieve is a defensively solid, fast-paced tactic, with actions starting from behind through short passes, one-touch actions and a lot of movement in order for my forwards/wingbacks to find spaces and receive deep passes. That's the idea.

So the question is: why do I score so little? Because I feel like even we lost, we should at least score more...

Thanks in advance for the help.

[Experienced Defender]

Please post the screenshot(s) in English.

[Exoseed]

Whoops, sorry about that. I'm not home right now so I recreated my tactic online. Hope this helps!

[Experienced Defender]

Okay, here are my thoughts:

- the right flank is totally exposed defensively (CWB and attacking AP are an extremely risky partnership + such a combo does not help attacking play either)

- the left flank is also exposed, albeit less so than the right (two roaming roles - a very attack-minded wing-back role coupled with a roaming midfield runner)

- defend narrower is not a good idea when you already play in a narrow formation (because that can put too much burden on the wing-backs as the only wide players in the entire system)

- virtually impossible to figure out what's your intended style of play by looking at roles, duties and instructions (the formation is very bottom-heavy and hence suited for passive defensive styles of play, but then roles and duties look very much gung-ho)

In short, you first need to explain what type of football you want to play with this tactic?

[Exoseed]

Quote

what type of football you want to play with this tactic?

My goal is to play a one-touch/short passing type of football. I would like to build actions starting from the back, until finding the right deep pass, in the right space, to either one of my forwards or one of my wingbacks. Basically.

Thanks a lot to your comments, I definitely need to rethink a lot of stuff.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Exoseed

[Jaye]

Three at the back can be tricky to pull off because if those wing-backs can't get up the pitch, you lose the bulk of your offense. In FM, the wing-backs (as in, the WBL and WBR positions) drop into the backline when defending to make a five, which isn't always ideal because it leaves you open to being double-teamed down the flanks by an opposition winger + full back. 

This is why - and this is just my preference - I like playing them on higher defensive lines and line of engagements. I need those wing-backs joining the attacking transition ASAP to give us width and threat down the flanks. In addition, I might have a supporting playmaker in the middle, like a deep-lying playmaker or roaming playmaker, who will naturally slow play down and give the wing-backs time to get up the pitch. If they can't get up the pitch, you'll lose a vital component in stretching the opposition and creating space for your mids and two strikers. 

Now, about the Libero. In this set-up, you won't see your Libero step-up too much because there's a DM and a playmaker in front of him. If you want your Libero to come up the pitch and spray passes around, you'll have to tweak your midfield roles. For example, you could push the BWM(D) from DM to CM, and swap out your AP(A) for a Mezzala (S). This way, the Mezalla can work together with the CWB(A) and F9 to overload that side of the pitch, while your Libero comes up into midfield, waiting to receive it and switch play to the other CWB or AF. 

 

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Exoseed said:

My goal is to play a one-touch/short passing type of football

But you don't even use short passing as a team instruction, for that matter. 

Anyway, if you want to play such style of football, the first thing you should do is change the formation into one that is not (so much) bottom-heavy. When it comes to formations with 3/5 at the back, the one that makes the most sense for suchstyle of play is the 5212. 

[Exoseed]

17 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

But you don't even use short passing as a team instruction, for that matter. 

I tried the short passing TI at some point but it didn't seem to have any effect, though I guess this is a formation/roles issue.

17 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Anyway, if you want to play such style of football, the first thing you should do is change the formation into one that is not (so much) bottom-heavy. When it comes to formations with 3/5 at the back, the one that makes the most sense for suchstyle of play is the 5212. 

I guess I went with a bottom-heavy formation because I wanted to build actions from the defenders (hence the libero) and in my mind the wing-backs are very offensive as well but that's probably not a good way of looking at it. 

I am not against a 5212 but I kind of like my false 9 and in my mind he was supposed to drop down into the midfield, wouldn't that be redundant with an AP?

I tried what @Jaye suggested, moved my BWM up and swapped my AP to a Mezzala on support. It definitely felt like some sort of improvement to be fair, though I still ended up losing what should have been a fairly easy game 0-1 with the other team being one man down following a red card... I don't know, I'm just starting with this game but that's kind of annoying because even if I do get that this tactic clearly isn't perfect, I feel like I should *at least* score once in a while...

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Exoseed said:

I am not against a 5212 but I kind of like my false 9 and in my mind he was supposed to drop down into the midfield, wouldn't that be redundant with an AP?

I don't remember that I mentioned an AP as part of 5212. 

[Exoseed]

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I don't remember that I mentioned an AP as part of 5212. 

I only assumed. What would you recommend then?

[CaptCanuck]

Some food for thought...

I use a 523 and have had some decent success with it my first two seasons in the Prem, but I've never really used a 3-5-2 before as I've not seen the need to push the WBs up a level.

But for a quick test I took mine and changed it quickly to largely fit what you were trying - but with some 'improvements' ;-) - to see what happens and I ended up using this against Everton:

Ended up winning 2-1, the goals were from a cross and an over the top through ball; however, we did have some nice pinging it about amongst the midfield three, but to get it up the pitch, going out to the the wings was how it mainly happened. You just don't have many players who will naturally being in attacking areas in/near the box for goal scoring chances, unless you can have a really deliberate build up and let the BBM or CAR get to the top of the box. As ExpDef points out less bottom heavy is a requirement, so pushing the CM to AM/SS and going double CARs or going single striker with two supporting IFs or IWs would likely be needed to get more thrust.

There are some PIs in there: DCL, DCR, WBL, WBR all get Stay Wider for example, but largely WYSIWYG. Of course this is a one-off match, where I didn't put too much thought into it and with less than optimized players for the roles, I might actually try some more tweaks later and see what happens, but I think I'll stick to my 523 ;-)

Nice have a bunch of quality technical players - big fan of Gouiri from my FM20 save - so you definitely have the squad to make a possession focused tactic work.

Edited January 27, 2021 by CaptCanuck

[Jervaj]

Im using a bottom heavy tactic now for the first time, which resemvbes this one to some extent, and after some tweaks it is working very well. It allows to use agressive roles and get some nice play, but as with all tactics it depends a lot on what you want to achieve to set it properly.

In this regard, I see some problems in your tactic specially given what you wanted to achieve. Formation and roles/duties are the core and the most important thing in seeting how a team will behave. It doesn't mean that TI's can't have quite the impact, but they may not work if the rest doesn't accompany.

 

In your case, I feel is hard for it to meet what you want with this setup. If you want a short passing game you need a tactic that makes the team be close to each other in transintions. In my case for example I wanted direct play to happen, just not forcing it and having versatility. Si I left standard and passing and even then I get plenty of direct and quick play, because my formation and roles/duties promote it on their own.

 

You probably want a higher defensive line, so your team is more compact overall, and starts transitions closer to the enemy goal, so everyone can contribute and give passing options.

Given the lack of wide partnerships you probably also want a less agressive setup for the WBs. I would at least put them on support, so they go up with the rest of the team and can combine with the central positions easily. The specific role Im unsure. Im not familiar with using CWB. In theory they roam more which could both help or hinder your style. Would have to see in game how they position and move themselves. On the right in theory the AP and CWB would go up quickly together and could support each other, but play out of defence is likely to draw the AP deep in build up. Even if they go up it can mean the BWM has not many options to combine.

 

Also I dont know how that Libero is gonna behave there. With and holding DM (one that leaves position easily while defending, but we are talking in possesion here) in front and overall crowded central midfield I doubt he will push up as intended. I see several options, depending on what you want to keep, either you remove it and use an AMC instead, or move the DMC to AMC or MC strata.

Mind you that whatever you do it has repercussions all around it and you may have to adapt. For example if you remove the holding midfielder and still use the libero paired with a higher line you may feel yourself exposed if you maintain some of the agressive roles.

Also in attack, are you strikers specially pacy with good anticipation, off the ball and such? Are you seeing succesful through passes to your attackers runs often? Because Im doubting "pass into space" TI with an otherwise patient attacking approach. If the enemy team sits deep and you are patient in attack (so they have time to pack the deep zone) it could prove not of much help. Mind you that you don't need to set a TI for a certain thing to happen. You will still get through passes if the situatuon arises. The TI may be forcing it too much in situations that aren't favorable (given your overall style) and make you needely lose the ball.

This tip of advice is true for most things. Overlaps, counters, offside, passing... A lot of stuff can be implemented without a specific TI for it. The TI is for when you encourage even more a certain thing for a specific reason.

 

If you want more precise feedback I would prompt you to make yourself questions. What do yo uwant to achieve overall (that you seem to have clear already) and how do you hope each part and its combinations achieve it. Also telling what you se ein matches and what you like and you don't from the team overall and different players. This will help inmesely for you to came up with tweaks, and for us to help in you don't see how.

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Jervaj

[Experienced Defender]

13 hours ago, Exoseed said:

I only assumed. What would you recommend then?

Depends on how the rest is set up. No role or role partnership works in isolation. So you always need to look at the whole context of a tactic, both in terms of roles/duties and instructions. Because it's a system whose elements interact with one another to create a coherent style of play. 

[Exoseed]

Ok so I did try to experiment with a 5212 yesterday. I used Rony Lopes as an AP(S) behind my forwards with my BWM in CM next to my B2B and a higher defensive line. It worked quite well and I had my two first wins of the season 2-0 in Ligue 1 and a great 3-1 in Europa League. I did see a lot of improvement in the way we played, more movement, better passes. We conceded a lot of occasions though, especially towards the end of the games, so I definitely feel like I should address that somehow.

Here is the tactic I used:

Thanks @Jervaj and @CaptCanuck for your answers, a lot of things to think about there! I really like the idea of the 523 in theory, but I was afraid to be a bit weak in the midfield. I tried to think about it and came up with this:

I really like this on paper. I think that the libero could balance the fact that there are only two midfielders. I swapped by BBM for a CAR who I think could offer more passing solutions to both CWBs and the IF/IW? On the left flank I would hope for the CWB to move up along the line while the IF would go more towards the center.

I thought it would be more interesting to have one IF on one side and an IW on the other side to allow for more variety but I may be mistaken there, maybe it's best to have two IF? I kept a false 9 behind, because I think he will create spaces in which the IF/IW could move. I think I will try something in that style tonight.

[Jervaj]

28 minutes ago, Exoseed said:

Ok so I did try to experiment with a 5212 yesterday. I used Rony Lopes as an AP(S) behind my forwards with my BWM in CM next to my B2B and a higher defensive line. It worked quite well and I had my two first wins of the season 2-0 in Ligue 1 and a great 3-1 in Europa League. I did see a lot of improvement in the way we played, more movement, better passes. We conceded a lot of occasions though, especially towards the end of the games, so I definitely feel like I should address that somehow.

Here is the tactic I used:

Thanks @Jervaj and @CaptCanuck for your answers, a lot of things to think about there! I really like the idea of the 523 in theory, but I was afraid to be a bit weak in the midfield. I tried to think about it and came up with this:

I really like this on paper. I think that the libero could balance the fact that there are only two midfielders. I swapped by BBM for a CAR who I think could offer more passing solutions to both CWBs and the IF/IW? On the left flank I would hope for the CWB to move up along the line while the IF would go more towards the center.

I thought it would be more interesting to have one IF on one side and an IW on the other side to allow for more variety but I may be mistaken there, maybe it's best to have two IF? I kept a false 9 behind, because I think he will create spaces in which the IF/IW could move. I think I will try something in that style tonight.

Im not very familiar with the Carrilero, but from the theory I have read it should work well, because it will provide cover for the CWB while at the same time combine more with the wide roles as it tends to play wider in general I believe.

About the IF/IW, any combination can work. Some people do like to combine to have varied angles of attack. Whats best would depend on the opposition, what you want them to do and what player are you gonna put there.

 

A couple of comments though. If you want the left SD to move along the line you are probably better using a WB role. Because WB will have a higher tendency to stay wide, while the CWB will roam more. Second, using higher line of engagement alone will stretch your formation vertically making you leave more space between the lines. Which is quite risky most times, but even more so in this case given you dont use a AMC or DMC.

[CaptCanuck]

4 hours ago, Exoseed said:

Ok so I did try to experiment with a 5212 yesterday. I used Rony Lopes as an AP(S) behind my forwards with my BWM in CM next to my B2B and a higher defensive line. It worked quite well and I had my two first wins of the season 2-0 in Ligue 1 and a great 3-1 in Europa League. I did see a lot of improvement in the way we played, more movement, better passes. We conceded a lot of occasions though, especially towards the end of the games, so I definitely feel like I should address that somehow.

Here is the tactic I used:

Thanks @Jervaj and @CaptCanuck for your answers, a lot of things to think about there! I really like the idea of the 523 in theory, but I was afraid to be a bit weak in the midfield. I tried to think about it and came up with this:

I really like this on paper. I think that the libero could balance the fact that there are only two midfielders. I swapped by BBM for a CAR who I think could offer more passing solutions to both CWBs and the IF/IW? On the left flank I would hope for the CWB to move up along the line while the IF would go more towards the center.

I thought it would be more interesting to have one IF on one side and an IW on the other side to allow for more variety but I may be mistaken there, maybe it's best to have two IF? I kept a false 9 behind, because I think he will create spaces in which the IF/IW could move. I think I will try something in that style tonight.

Nice to get some results :-)

I've played a season and a half with an L-SU and TBH he hasn't done much and in Ajer or Dunk playing that role I have players who could excel at it. When teams press, their striker stands on him and the ball goes to one of my BPDs. So while I like the idea of that support in MF, I don't see a whole heckuva lot. Except as a possible recycler when you have built up possession in the attacking zone, I wouldn't worry too much about what you can get out of him. That said I also use an IWB to have a 3rd person in MF along with my two CMs, so that could crowd him out.

In regards to getting opened up by the opponent, a BWM even in D form is supposed to go chase down the ball. With two CWBs bombing down the pitch, if the BWM makes the wrong choice, they can get caught out and leave lots of gaps. A CM-s or CM-d would likely be a safer choice and provide a more consistent defensive presence. Even two CARs as your double pivot, which I have used in a 523 and seen them work pretty well together.

Even if you don't want to do that by default, once you've got a lead and want to settle the game down, you could have a second tactic that can still use the same players, in largely the same space and similar roles, so the familiarity would still be there. For instance:

This could be too passive, but if you need to see the last 15mins out or are playing against stronger opponents, something less open could be beneficial, again just brainstorming/reflexion, so would need to see how everything works together with TIs, PIs, and specific players.

Edited January 27, 2021 by CaptCanuck

[Exoseed]

So I started a new save in order to get a fresh start. But there is definitely something I don't understand. I scheduled early in the pre-season 3 matches against very bad teams, for my players to familiarize with the tactic and gain confidence. I won 8-0, 6-0 then 4-0. Great.

Then came a slightly better team (I insist on slightly). Here is the result:

I mean come on, this is absurd now. I have the possession, way better xGs, 24 (!!) shots. No goals. And my opponent manage somehow to get one on a ridiculous play. I'm not expecting to win all my games, but this *really* feels like a scripted thing and it's annoying. Here is my tactic right now, thanks to all the good points made above:

[lfds89]

1.94 xG from 24 shots isn't good (6 on target or woodwork?). Try lowering the tempo or work ball into box. Or even Shoot Less Often PI for the shooters.

[Guest]

Couple of other points not related to tactics, first that Nice squad much like real life is horrible defensively especially at CB.

Dante is one is of you better defenders but his concentration and positioning are shot and that's before you even take his ridiculously slow pace on that long pitch with your high line in to account. The other CBS like Pelmard, Nsoki and Bamba have big flaws for me that saw me clear the whole defence out when I took over a Nice save.

Secondly what is the teams morale like in pre-season when you started that game?

Morale is a bigger factor than I anticipated in the game and if you start off a new save with a low reputation you find that the players morale will keep creeping down between games and suddenly you're losing pre-season games you really ought to be winning.

[Guest]

Btw I am not convinced with one, nevermind two carrileros you have there. I love Carrileros it's a great role but I need one because I use two CBs and two CWBs on attack so I need that cover in wide areas on occasion.

You have three CBs a WB on defend and one on attack so I really see no need for that. Instead I would be wanting something else from that central midfield.

 

 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Exoseed said:

I mean come on, this is absurd now. I have the possession, way better xGs, 24 (!!) shots. No goals.

It's not absurd at all. When it comes to tactics (i.e. tactical creation), the game rewards logical thinking (quote taken from Herne79) and "punishes" bad (illogical) tactical decisions. 

While your latest tactic is not too bad overall, it still has enough room for improvement.