Can "Violence" or "Dirtiness" be usefull ?

[jmpaparone]

Hello.

Sorry if it is not the good word, but the hidden attribute i want to discuss is "Violence" in French, and i think it corresponds to "Dirtiness" in English.

I wonder if this attribute can be somehow good (for example, if it improoves 1 vs 1, or can impress opponent etc...) or if it is always bad.

I got a regen Goalkeeper and i went to editor to see the personality of the guy, and he is 19 for violent things.

My secondary question is : how dirtiness will result for a goalkeeper ? He may concede a lot of penalties+red cards.... Or may break some leg of superstar strikers xD

Thanks

[FrazT]

I cant really think of any circumstance where the dirtiness attribute can be looked on as any good, to be honest.

For a GK, this attribute will probably lead to red cards and penalties, so hardly an attribute that you would want to be so high.

[h3nrique_SEP]

If you are playing the Libertadores, yes

[jmpaparone]

55 minutes ago, FrazT said:

I cant really think of any circumstance where the dirtiness attribute can be looked on as any good, to be honest.

For a GK, this attribute will probably lead to red cards and penalties, so hardly an attribute that you would want to be so high.

Interesting dilemma. I also saw a PA of 198 xD.......... I think i will give him a try, and will keep you posted. If there are other opinions, i'm still interested in.

 

42 minutes ago, h3nrique_SEP said:

If you are playing the Libertadores, yes

OMG, twice !

[Sharkn20]

4 hours ago, FrazT said:

I cant really think of any circumstance where the dirtiness attribute can be looked on as any good, to be honest.

For a GK, this attribute will probably lead to red cards and penalties, so hardly an attribute that you would want to be so high.

I never ever saw a GK causing a penalty in FM, being playing since FM17, let alone a dirty tackle, is it even possible?

Edited January 25, 2021 by Sharkn20

[FrazT]

39 minutes ago, Sharkn20 said:

I never ever saw a GK causing a penalty in FM, being playing since FM17, let alone a dirty tackle, is it even possible?

I agree that it is very rare

[Pasonen]

7 hours ago, jmpaparone said:

Hello.

Sorry if it is not the good word, but the hidden attribute i want to discuss is "Violence" in French, and i think it corresponds to "Dirtiness" in English.

I wonder if this attribute can be somehow good (for example, if it improoves 1 vs 1, or can impress opponent etc...) or if it is always bad.

I got a regen Goalkeeper and i went to editor to see the personality of the guy, and he is 19 for violent things.

My secondary question is : how dirtiness will result for a goalkeeper ? He may concede a lot of penalties+red cards.... Or may break some leg of superstar strikers xD

Thanks

I don't know how the aerial challenges system and punching ball away works exactly but anyway a GK that doesn't shy off situations especially in corners and other crowded situations should benefit from some dirtyness.

[Jervaj]

9 hours ago, FrazT said:

I cant really think of any circumstance where the dirtiness attribute can be looked on as any good, to be honest.

For a GK, this attribute will probably lead to red cards and penalties, so hardly an attribute that you would want to be so high.

Doesn't it have any upside?

 

Mind you, I consider it bad and avoid it. Even hope to improve it by mentoring as I notice it is affected by it. But doesn't the game imply it may allow the player to get an extra advantage in some situations?

[HUNT3R]

10 minutes ago, Jervaj said:

Even hope to improve it by mentoring as I notice it is affected by it.

I would be surprised if it is affected by Mentoring as it's not part of a personality. Herne mentioned it a couple of years ago as well: 

 

As Fraz said, I can't see any situation where dirtiness would be considered as being beneficial. It's important to distinguish it from Aggression and Bravery as well.

[Jervaj]

6 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I would be surprised if it is affected by Mentoring as it's not part of a personality. Herne mentioned it a couple of years ago as well: 

 

As Fraz said, I can't see any situation where dirtiness would be considered as being beneficial. It's important to distinguish it from Aggression and Bravery as well.

I didnt thought it was. But I had mentoring group reports from my first save mentioning some players had become more or less dirty. Maybe it was a sportsmanship change and the description is misleading?

It was a while ago but if it come up will take a SS and bring it up to check and confirm.

By the way, whats the difference between dirtiness and sportmanship? I never fully understood having two attribtues that seem to represent the same, or how they interact. It feels weird when a player has good sportmanship yet its dirty. Or the opposite.

[HUNT3R]

12 minutes ago, Jervaj said:

But I had mentoring group reports from my first save mentioning some players had become more or less dirty. Maybe it was a sportsmanship change and the description is misleading?

That's possible. Either Sportsmanship or (more likely, imo) Temperament. Those 2 are part of a player's Personality. I've done a quick search on the forum and very little has been written on Dirtiness. I didn't find anything mentioned in the manual either. A researcher could maybe weigh in on this as they usually have a good understanding of attributes. Unfortunately I can't be of much help regarding these hidden attributes.

[Jervaj]

3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

That's possible. Either Sportsmanship or (more likely, imo) Temperament. Those 2 are part of a player's Personality. I've done a quick search on the forum and very little has been written on Dirtiness. I didn't find anything mentioned in the manual either. A researcher could maybe weigh in on this as they usually have a good understanding of attributes. Unfortunately I can't be of much help regarding these hidden attributes.

Umm. I dont think temperament though because those are pretty clear. At least when it improves. It says something on the lines of the player has improved his temper and now reacts more camly in tense/adverse situations.

 

There really is little information about it in general compared with others, aside of how it appears in scout reports as competitive streak and that it makes the player get more cards.

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, Jervaj said:

Umm. I dont think temperament though because those are pretty clear. At least when it improves. It says something on the lines of the player has improved his temper and now reacts more camly in tense/adverse situations.

Okay. Will take your word for it. I haven't paid too much attention to the wording, but it's good to know that it exists. 

 

@santy001 is there anything you can add around these attributes and/or Dirtiness specifically?

[santy001]

Dirtiness is an indicator of how willing a player is to commit a foul in order to get an advantage. 

So there are a few things that immediately come to mind:

- Committing a foul and a foul being awarded are not the same thing.
- It also relates to how likely a player maybe is to go for something like a kick to the ankle, something more cynical than is perhaps warranted.

- - - - -

Temperament is an on the pitch & off the pitch attribute. 

- It guides how likely a player will keep their cool under provocation.

- - - - -

This means there are some obscure situations, which are almost impossible to get by design, in which dirtiness can be a positive. Against a player with a combination of lower bravery, poorer temperament and a lax referee you could bully a player out of a game and into making a big mistake and getting themselves sent off. It's going to be something that is largely imperceptible but as with any player the ones who can have little digs and get away with it, the ones who can keep pushing the opposition players buttons may well eventually prompt a reaction. It's always going to be resting on a knife edge though. 

It was a regen of course, but I had a low temperament player many moons ago who was quite prone to throwing right hooks at opposition players. He had acceleration though, and as we all know, you can't teach speed. That comes from him.

[rp1966]

Is dirtiness just about fouls or does it cover other 'dark arts' like diving to get a penalty?

 

 

[santy001]

Sportsmanship covers elements like diving. 

High dirtiness and low sportsmanship are only ever going to have very niche positive situations, like the one I mentioned in my last post you couldn't ever really look to set up something that exploits it in any meaningful way. But there's bound to be that one game somewhere in your save where the stars align and it would work better with a player more willing to do something snide like dive or go for a sly challenge.

[kevhamster]

As Vinny Jones will tell you, it works out quite well if you're dealing with a nippy little midfielder who's a right handful.

[Jervaj]

1 hour ago, santy001 said:

Dirtiness is an indicator of how willing a player is to commit a foul in order to get an advantage. 

So there are a few things that immediately come to mind:

- Committing a foul and a foul being awarded are not the same thing.
- It also relates to how likely a player maybe is to go for something like a kick to the ankle, something more cynical than is perhaps warranted.

- - - - -

Temperament is an on the pitch & off the pitch attribute. 

- It guides how likely a player will keep their cool under provocation.

- - - - -

This means there are some obscure situations, which are almost impossible to get by design, in which dirtiness can be a positive. Against a player with a combination of lower bravery, poorer temperament and a lax referee you could bully a player out of a game and into making a big mistake and getting themselves sent off. It's going to be something that is largely imperceptible but as with any player the ones who can have little digs and get away with it, the ones who can keep pushing the opposition players buttons may well eventually prompt a reaction. It's always going to be resting on a knife edge though. 

It was a regen of course, but I had a low temperament player many moons ago who was quite prone to throwing right hooks at opposition players. He had acceleration though, and as we all know, you can't teach speed. That comes from him.

I see. So basically it can have the situational upsides we could expect but its mostly still a negative as we were commenting. As you said is risky and not really something that can be built around.

About the temperament part, the differentiation there was clear, was brought up more as if maybe the mentoring progress text for the two were been confused. Its related in that it can get players carded due to violent reactions. But sill a clear difference.

 

My confusion between what stat does what would rather be with sportmantship. You explained quite extensively what dirtiness would do but I would also see all that falling easilly under sportmanship. You said diving would go with it for example, but what else if not trying to bully players as you mentioned?

Basically, what would a high sportmanship yet high dirtiness player look like in its behaviour? Why do we have both attributes?

 

Also, it makes me wonder. Does this interact with cynical fouls? Not in the sense of going for the ankle as you mentioned, or trying to provoke/shy off/ injure a player, but as in is tactically convenient to do a small foul over letting the player pass, like when stopping a counter. Its something I have seen in game is not uncommon with varying players even if not dirty, and it is indeed convenient.

[rp1966]

18 minutes ago, Jervaj said:

 

Basically, what would a high sportmanship yet high dirtiness player look like in its behaviour? 

The player is more than happy to do a leg-breaking tackle, but would apologise to the opponent as they are stretchered off 

[Jack Joyce]

In some situations it can indeed be beneficial, for example sometimes an opposition player (based on their mental attributes) can be demoralised by you getting physical with them and giving them a bit of a kicking. There's obvious drawbacks though in terms of discipline/bookings. Players with high dirtiness will likely commit more fouls, and more 'severe' fouls.

Other things such as diving, time wasting, tactical fouls etc. will be more to do with the player's sportsmanship attribute.

[enigmatic]

17 hours ago, FrazT said:

For a GK, this attribute will probably lead to red cards and penalties   absolutely nothing, because keepers do not foul in FM

FTFY     

I'd be very happy with a keeper with 19 dirtiness and a PA of 198, but would consider cashing in on a defender in that category.

-

More generally there are a lot of individual situations in football where a "tactical foul" can be useful, and so a player doing that might help the team in that instance. But giving the opposition more free kicks and getting sent off more in general are a bad thing overall. For tactics, I'd rather have clean players it's easier to trust to tackle sensibly with 'hard tackling' on.

Edited January 25, 2021 by enigmatic

[jmpaparone]

Thanks for these very interesting answers. As a GK doesnt fool, i will definitely keep him

The other interesting point, is the translation of "dirtiness" in terms of gameplay. Dirtiness does imply more fools and hard ones, which can lead to negative issues (free kicks, red cards) and more rarely positive ones (opponent demoralised, injuries, fool not seen by the referee).

That's mostly negative, but more balanced that we could think before. That's why, the translation of dirtiness in French seems not correct imho. It is translated as "Violence" = "Dirtiness". And "violence" in French, has the same meaning as in english, so it is not appropriated to describe "dirtiness". The FM dirtiness is not necessarly violent.

In French we have an expression "faire une crasse" (equals word to word to  "to do + 1 + dirtiness"), which means "play a dirty trick". We are closer to the FM intention... But it becomes close to the definition of sportmanship, even if i understood properly from Santy :

- Dirtiness is an indicator of how willing a player is to commit a foul in order to get an advantage.

- Sportsmanship covers elements like diving

- Temperament is an on the pitch & off the pitch attribute : it guides how likely a player will keep their cool under provocation.

 

We are around the same mental things but a bit different.

To conclude, i would say that i would rather translating "Dirtiness" into "Irrespect du règlement" in French (word to word "disrespect of the rules")

Edited January 27, 2021 by jmpaparone

[IbrahimAliMaher]

I wish I could find a nice dirty midfielder...in my game it's 2030 and there are very few DCM/ball winning CM regens who have a good aggression stat, so I suppose dirtiness would be a good substitute!

I just want somebody in MF to do all the leg work my floaty-passy-dribbly players won't do, basically just go around and kick people! 

[Jervaj]

19 hours ago, jmpaparone said:

Thanks for these very interesting answers. As a GK doesnt fool, i will definitely keep him

The other interesting point, is the translation of "dirtiness" in terms of gameplay. Dirtiness does imply more fools and hard ones, which can lead to negative issues (free kicks, red cards) and more rarely positive ones (opponent demoralised, injuries, fool not seen by the referee).

That's mostly negative, but more balanced that we could think before. That's why, the translation of dirtiness in French seems not correct imho. It is translated as "Violence" = "Dirtiness". And "violence" in French, has the same meaning as in english, so it is not appropriated to describe "dirtiness". The FM dirtiness is not necessarly violent.

In French we have an expression "faire une crasse" (equals word to word to  "to do + 1 + dirtiness"), which means "play a dirty trick". We are closer to the FM intention... But it becomes close to the definition of sportmanship, even if i understood properly from Santy :

- Dirtiness is an indicator of how willing a player is to commit a foul in order to get an advantage.

- Sportsmanship covers elements like diving

- Temperament is an on the pitch & off the pitch attribute : it guides how likely a player will keep their cool under provocation.

 

We are around the same mental things but a bit different.

To conclude, i would say that i would rather translating "Dirtiness" into "Irrespect du règlement" in French (word to word "disrespect of the rules")

Im surprised. Given in Spanish is very well translated. Its the equivalent of "Dirty play" which is how we call it here. Basically any underhand tactic that goes beyond the rules to gain advantage.

 

15 hours ago, IbrahimAliMaher said:

I wish I could find a nice dirty midfielder...in my game it's 2030 and there are very few DCM/ball winning CM regens who have a good aggression stat, so I suppose dirtiness would be a good substitute!

I just want somebody in MF to do all the leg work my floaty-passy-dribbly players won't do, basically just go around and kick people! 

I wouldn't say thats a good substitute, like at all. Agression may led to more fouls buts its more about commiting to challenges. BWM or similar set up roles are very agressive and by default arleady tend to be foul/card prone. With high dirtiness you may be unable to play him often. I already had one suspended several times a season just been slightly dirty.