Please Help !! with My Chelsea system. Dominating games but not taking our chances.

[braddockmatt]

Hi Guys.

Could any of you kind people be able to cast your eyes over my two Chelsea systems. Im two seasons in now, came 4th first season, 5th second season and only got to quarter finals of domestic cups and Champions League, so no trophys either.

I would say 90% of games both home and away, im the better side, (even against Utd,City away) Ill tend to have most shots and seems to have a lot of corners too, which i do score some to be fair, but more last season than this.

Ill post the pics of the two tactics and some match stats of games that i played which i dominated but ended up losing or drawing.

I do occasionally look at the match analysis and we do seem to have a lot of shots from outside the area, but since i noticed this is put most of my midfielders to "Shoot less often" but it didnt make much difference. we still had a lot of shots and XG was much higher than my opponents. I watch most games on comprehensive highlights. What i notice a lot is that we get a lot of one on ones but my Forwards (Werner, Abraham and Alexander Isak) simply miss or keeper make a easy save. I thought this might be down to my players, however i would say Werner and Isak are two of the best strikers On FM21 !!

If anyone can suggest something i can do different to make my Chelsea team more clinical, please let me know any advice.

Ive just had the Chairman give me one more season to impress you i'm out the door. I really enjoying the save and got some cracking young stars coming through the ranks and i would love to continue being Chelsea manager for many more years.

Cheers

  

[braddockmatt]

[braddockmatt]

[Experienced Defender]

First, there is absolutely no need for using two so vastly different tactics for one same team (and even more so when that's a top team).

I would completely discard your 2nd tactic (433) and focus solely on improving the 1st one (4231), because it's far better designed and needs just a couple of sensible tweaks. For example:

- be less aggressive/more sensible out of possession (drop the LOE by just one notch, remove stay on feet and use the split block instead of extreme pressing)

- remove regroup, because such instruction does not fit at all with the rest of the tactic

- remove work ball into box, both because the instruction can needlessly overcomplicate attacks in the final third and because it does not look suited to your setup of roles and duties anyway

- remove the overlap right, primarily because you already have a natural overlap on that flank

- leave the tempo on default, because under the positive mentality it's already high enough (especially as you don't use short passing)

- don't use the counter instruction all the time, because it can lead to needless losses of possession against defensive opposition (your players will occasionally attempt counter-attacks even without the instruction)

[Britrock]

Unrelated to the topic, but I hate to see people taking photos of their screen with a phone when you can use alt+s to take a screenshot, then look in your documents folder in the FM21/screenshots folder. Copy/paste the image into your post and you're good to go

[braddockmatt]

1 hour ago, Britrock said:

Unrelated to the topic, but I hate to see people taking photos of their screen with a phone when you can use alt+s to take a screenshot, then look in your documents folder in the FM21/screenshots folder. Copy/paste the image into your post and you're good to go

Funny you should comment about that !! It’s been years since I posted on these forums and I couldn’t remember how to do a screenshot on my laptop and I spent about two hours to find how to do it. I knew it was alt something but didn’t no what. So had to do it on my phone. Apologies though. 

[braddockmatt]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

First, there is absolutely no need for using two so vastly different tactics for one same team (and even more so when that's a top team).

I would completely discard your 2nd tactic (433) and focus solely on improving the 1st one (4231), because it's far better designed and needs just a couple of sensible tweaks. For example:

- be less aggressive/more sensible out of possession (drop the LOE by just one notch, remove stay on feet and use the split block instead of extreme pressing)

- remove regroup, because such instruction does not fit at all with the rest of the tactic

- remove work ball into box, both because the instruction can needlessly overcomplicate attacks in the final third and because it does not look suited to your setup of roles and duties anyway

- remove the overlap right, primarily because you already have a natural overlap on that flank

- leave the tempo on default, because under the positive mentality it's already high enough (especially as you don't use short passing)

- don't use the counter instruction all the time, because it can lead to needless losses of possession against defensive opposition (your players will occasionally attempt counter-attacks even without the instruction)

Wow. Thanks so much for your advice. I made a mistake on that formation before I crook the picture. On the AML , I mainly played a inside forward role who I played Pulicic there before sadly breaking his leg. I then moved it to a winger to suit the player I had there. Would you keep it as a winger or be better as inside forward ? I’ve already used your advice to tweak the tactic, just starting my pre season now. So will let you know how I get on. Can I just ask, why do you think I’m getting so many corners in games ? When I watch the games seems like my wide players get to the byline and then run out of ideas and play it off defenders. Like the pics shows, on average getting 15-20 corners a match !! 
Also would you place any PI on any players that will give me an edge ? 
 

thanks for you help again 👍

[Experienced Defender]

4 minutes ago, braddockmatt said:

Would you keep it as a winger or be better as inside forward ?

With the PF on attack duty up front, I would rather keep the winger than switching to IF in this particular setup. Alternatively, you can try IW on attack duty in AML as well. 

If you want to use IF on attack in AML, then I would change the striker's role (not duty) into more of a creator/roamer type (CF or DLF). 

7 minutes ago, braddockmatt said:

Can I just ask, why do you think I’m getting so many corners in games ?

When you manage a top team, it's quite normal to get a lot of corners, simply because you mostly face very defensive opposition that defends deep and is therefore able to block a lot of your crosses or - when a cross gets into the box - their defender heads it away behind the goal conceding a corner. Blocked shots are also common when playing against defensive opposition, which can also lead to corners occasionally. 

Although I don't know which tactic you are getting those crosses with - your original one or the tweaked version? 

12 minutes ago, braddockmatt said:

Also would you place any PI on any players that will give me an edge ? 

PIs are not a decisive factor, but if I were to use some, they would be - roam from position for the AMC and sit narrower for the AMR/IW. 

[braddockmatt]

18 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

With the PF on attack duty up front, I would rather keep the winger than switching to IF in this particular setup. Alternatively, you can try IW on attack duty in AML as well. 

If you want to use IF on attack in AML, then I would change the striker's role (not duty) into more of a creator/roamer type (CF or DLF). 

When you manage a top team, it's quite normal to get a lot of corners, simply because you mostly face very defensive opposition that defends deep and is therefore able to block a lot of your crosses or - when a cross gets into the box - their defender heads it away behind the goal conceding a corner. Blocked shots are also common when playing against defensive opposition, which can also lead to corners occasionally. 

Although I don't know which tactic you are getting those crosses with - your original one or the tweaked version? 

PIs are not a decisive factor, but if I were to use some, they would be - roam from position for the AMC and sit narrower for the AMR/IW. 

That’s great thanks. The tactic with crosses and corners was my original one. Just played my first friendly and so far so good . Good fluid movement up front. 
why on my previous tactic was we missing so many clear cut chances ? Was it down to my LOE ? 
the reason I had stay on feet was because in my first season we had a few occasions we had players flying in to tackles and getting sent off and giving away penalties. Can I ask why u have advised me to remove that ? 
👍

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, braddockmatt said:

why on my previous tactic was we missing so many clear cut chances ? Was it down to my LOE ? 

Can be part of the reason, but certainly not the only one. 

 

1 hour ago, braddockmatt said:

the reason I had stay on feet was because in my first season we had a few occasions we had players flying in to tackles and getting sent off and giving away penalties. Can I ask why u have advised me to remove that ? 

I advised the removal in conjunction with other tweaks I suggested. Because tactical elements never work in isolation. Any instruction can make sense in a certain type of tactic or tactical style and be senseless in another. So you always need to view the whole context of a tactic, not just its individual elements.

For example, many times a player undeperforms not because of the role you play him in, but the roles/duties around him. And then people keep changing his role and wonder why nothing works, when they should actually have tweaked elsewhere. 

[braddockmatt]

Thanks so much for your help. I’ve started season now, and started in really good form. I have made a lot of changes to the team in summer tho and buying new players in (likes of Haaland& Fati) which should help our chances, but we are now looking more potent up front and fluid around the PF thus giving us options 

[braddockmatt]

18 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Can be part of the reason, but certainly not the only one. 

 

I advised the removal in conjunction with other tweaks I suggested. Because tactical elements never work in isolation. Any instruction can make sense in a certain type of tactic or tactical style and be senseless in another. So you always need to view the whole context of a tactic, not just its individual elements.

For example, many times a player undeperforms not because of the role you play him in, but the roles/duties around him. And then people keep changing his role and wonder why nothing works, when they should actually have tweaked elsewhere. 

Also, do you use opposition instructions? 

[Experienced Defender]

28 minutes ago, braddockmatt said:

Also, do you use opposition instructions? 

Only positional OIs - "always tight mark" the opposition AMC and "always close down" both fullbacks and wing-backs. I may occasionally apply one or two more, depending on what I observe watching the match.

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, braddockmatt said:

I have made a lot of changes to the team in summer tho and buying new players in (likes of Haaland& Fati)

I personally don't recommend changing the squad too much (only buying or loaning when you really need to), because that can adversely affect not just the tactical side but also the atmosphere among players, which can in turn lead to tactical issues as well. 

And when you bring in new players, do not bring the "best" ones you can afford but only those that fit in with your system. For example, if you manage (a team like) Burnley, do not buy (a player like) Messi, even if you can afford him. 

[braddockmatt]

16 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I personally don't recommend changing the squad too much (only buying or loaning when you really need to), because that can adversely affect not just the tactical side but also the atmosphere among players, which can in turn lead to tactical issues as well. 

And when you bring in new players, do not bring the "best" ones you can afford but only those that fit in with your system. For example, if you manage (a team like) Burnley, do not buy (a player like) Messi, even if you can afford him. 

Yeah smart advice. I bought my new players early in the transfer window and played a lot of friendly so the players are fluid with our system before season started. I’m 12 games in the season and 1st with 5 points clear so everything is working so far . Thanks  again mate 👍

[braddockmatt]

On 22/01/2021 at 16:11, Experienced Defender said:

I personally don't recommend changing the squad too much (only buying or loaning when you really need to), because that can adversely affect not just the tactical side but also the atmosphere among players, which can in turn lead to tactical issues as well. 

And when you bring in new players, do not bring the "best" ones you can afford but only those that fit in with your system. For example, if you manage (a team like) Burnley, do not buy (a player like) Messi, even if you can afford him. 

Hi. Just need some more tactic advice. Doing ok overall , despite being knocked out of the league cup by Burnley on penalties, without them even having a shot on at all in the 90mins. 
what tweaks would you suggest I do to try and kill games off. At the start of the season I was blowing teams away 4/5 nil. But now think teams are figuring out how I play. I’m winning games still but only by the odd goal or a goalless draw, but dominate most games. 
I sometimes have tweaked the tempo and pressing intensity for the last 15 mins if I want a goal but it doesn’t seem to help . 
 

is there anything I can tweak to make the games more comfortable??

cheers 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, braddockmatt said:

what tweaks would you suggest I do to try and kill games off

Post a screenshot of the current tactic, because I really cannot remember all tactics I discuss with people here (there are too many of then).

[braddockmatt]

[Experienced Defender]

When did you start using the CWB? The role was not part of the original tactic. No need for such role in a non-narrow system, especially a top-heavy one like 4231. Normal WB on support was a perfect fit for this setup. So that's definitely the tweak I would immediately make.

The same goes for the BWM. In the original tactic it was CM on defend duty, which is the better choice than BWM because the latter's aggressive manner of defending means he can be caught out of position more often. Which is not much of an issue in a system with a DM, but in the top-heavy 4231 can sometimes prove costly.

As for killing games off, my first 3 measures would be to:

- switch the AML's duty to support 

- remove the overlap left

- change the RB from WBat into FBat (along with the aforementioned switch of the BWM into CM on defend)

- switch the AMC's duty to attack (in direct relation to switching the AML to support)

 The obvious purpose of the first 3 tweaks is to maximally solidify the defensive phase of play without changing the formation and/or disrupting overall tactical balance.

In the last 5 or so minutes, a tweak like play for set pieces in tandem with waste time sometimes can be added as well. And once the extra time is on, the waste time sometimes can become waste time frequently. 

if you want to further reduce the risk, you can also remove the play out of defence.

[braddockmatt]

6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

When did you start using the CWB? The role was not part of the original tactic. No need for such role in a non-narrow system, especially a top-heavy one like 4231. Normal WB on support was a perfect fit for this setup. So that's definitely the tweak I would immediately make.

The same goes for the BWM. In the original tactic it was CM on defend duty, which is the better choice than BWM because the latter's aggressive manner of defending means he can be caught out of position more often. Which is not much of an issue in a system with a DM, but in the top-heavy 4231 can sometimes prove costly.

As for killing games off, my first 3 measures would be to:

- switch the AML's duty to support 

- remove the overlap left

- change the RB from WBat into FBat (along with the aforementioned switch of the BWM into CM on defend)

- switch the AMC's duty to attack (in direct relation to switching the AML to support)

 The obvious purpose of the first 3 tweaks is to maximally solidify the defensive phase of play without changing the formation and/or disrupting overall tactical balance.

In the last 5 or so minutes, a tweak like play for set pieces in tandem with waste time sometimes can be added as well. And once the extra time is on, the waste time sometimes can become waste time frequently. 

if you want to further reduce the risk, you can also remove the play out of defence.

Ok that’s great , I’ll give that a try. Regarding the CWB on the left. The only reason I changed that was because the player I play there (mendes) became unhappy that he wasn’t playing in the CWB role and was threatening to leave and his morale nosedived . So I played him in his preferred role, to be honest he has been one of my best players this year. The reason I changed to BWM . I noticed my MC (def) wasn’t closing down and getting tackles in enough in a few games so that why I changed it but I do sometime revert back to a mc(def) a lot of the time. ( mainly in games at home against weak opposition)  

[Experienced Defender]

9 minutes ago, braddockmatt said:

The only reason I changed that was because the player I play there (mendes) became unhappy that he wasn’t playing in the CWB role and was threatening to leave and his morale nosedived

Never let a player impose his will on you. You are the manager, not him. When a player behaves like that, I would rather sell him and buy a replacement than allow him to ruin my authority. Players always have to know who is the boss  

[skrew]

Be mindful too that xG is not an average value, but an accumulated value of the xG value of the shots taken. 
In your 1-1 draw with Villa they had 0.68 xG and you had 1.52, while they took 8 shots and you took 15. Therefore you can't say you had much better opportunities, you only had more. Of course it can be misleading because - for example, this isn't the case - your goal came from a penalty then its 0.76 xG alone (if I remember correctly). Meaning the rest of your 14 shots totalled 0.76 too, which isn't that good.
Maybe you knew already, just saying if you hadn't.

[kayyuenchinup]

13 小时前, Experienced Defender说:

When did you start using the CWB? The role was not part of the original tactic. No need for such role in a non-narrow system, especially a top-heavy one like 4231. Normal WB on support was a perfect fit for this setup. So that's definitely the tweak I would immediately make.

The same goes for the BWM. In the original tactic it was CM on defend duty, which is the better choice than BWM because the latter's aggressive manner of defending means he can be caught out of position more often. Which is not much of an issue in a system with a DM, but in the top-heavy 4231 can sometimes prove costly.

As for killing games off, my first 3 measures would be to:

- switch the AML's duty to support 

- remove the overlap left

- change the RB from WBat into FBat (along with the aforementioned switch of the BWM into CM on defend)

- switch the AMC's duty to attack (in direct relation to switching the AML to support)

 The obvious purpose of the first 3 tweaks is to maximally solidify the defensive phase of play without changing the formation and/or disrupting overall tactical balance.

In the last 5 or so minutes, a tweak like play for set pieces in tandem with waste time sometimes can be added as well. And once the extra time is on, the waste time sometimes can become waste time frequently. 

if you want to further reduce the risk, you can also remove the play out of defence.

Always good advices from you @Experienced Defender

Would you agree when playing two midfielder, avoid using ball winning, box to box midfielder, roaming player, etc.  They will roam and lose the team shape?

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, kayyuenchinup said:

Would you agree when playing two midfielder, avoid using ball winning, box to box midfielder, roaming player, etc.  They will roam and lose the team shape?

I guess you are asking about the 4231 formation?

[kayyuenchinup]

1 小时前, Experienced Defender说:

I guess you are asking about the 4231 formation?

Yes and formation that only with two central midfielder

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, kayyuenchinup said:

Yes and formation that only with two central midfielder

Basically yes, although it can vary depending on your style of play and/or quality of your players. With better players you can afford to take a bit more risk. 

For a possession-oriented tactic, an optimal CM duo should consist of 2 holding roles (basically DLP on support and CM on defend). But as I said, there can be exceptions. 

[braddockmatt]

Hi . Me again. I’ve had a change of heart, I have won the Prem and euro cup last season . But I want more of a challenge. So I really want a go at trying to improve Newcastle United !! 
 

would you recommend me doing a similar formation for them or do you think a system that contains a DMC. Is better ?? 
obviously Newcastle don’t have the players Chelsea do, and may want to have a lower mentality with a lower defence line. But I think similar roles could suit the players I have at my disposal.

 

do u agree ? Any help you could offer would be massively appreciated 👍

[braddockmatt]

So, this is what is have put together to start off with, I want to play the 4-2-3-1 in most games if i can. i want to get the best out of my new AMC, but my first question is, Would you reccommed me having a more defensive formation setup aswell for when i come up against better teams away from home ie, Liverpool & Man Utd ? 

I want my team to play decent football without getting to tika taka where we just lose possession all the time, my front 3/4 are pretty quick so i would like to utilise that. Next question is , My Forward Wilson is suited to playing the Complete forward role, and i think what i learnt from you is that is my LW is on IW role on Attack to have the forward on a role thats more creative ? ie, DLF or CF. 

I also want movement down the flanks like i had with chelsea, so the LW/RW cut inside and my wing backs offer width. However again, If we are against better teams will this be a dangerous way to play ? will i just get caught up field and ripped to shreads ? would you recommend on games like these to just have a flat back four and try to hold out ?

 

[Experienced Defender]

With the lower defensive line paired with standard line of engagement, you are likely to be defensively exposed, considering both the relatively low level of compactness and the rather average quality of your team.

[braddockmatt]

So do you think move the LOE down to lower aswell ? We have many attacking players up top and on wings that are quick too. Do you think a “pass into space” option will work with this tactic ?? 
Also against the top teams how would you set up against them ? Try to be compact defensively? Push them outside? 

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, braddockmatt said:

So do you think move the LOE down to lower aswell ?

If you want to drop the LOE to lower, then D-line should be upped to standard in order to give you optimal compactness, which is particularly important for this type of formation (top-heavy with no DM). But such setting would also require changes in other aspects of the tactic, especially the setup of roles and duties. Because the low LOE means a defensive style of football, whereas your current setup does not look suited to such style. On top of that, the 4231 as a system is not the best choice for defensive football (although it can be made to work, partly depending on the type and quality of your players). In that respect, keep in mind that Newcastle is considerably weaker than Chelsea. 

 

3 hours ago, braddockmatt said:

We have many attacking players up top and on wings that are quick too. Do you think a “pass into space” option will work with this tactic ??

Pass into space is the type of instruction that should basically be used on a situational basis (i.e. as an in-match tweak), rather than a regular part of a tactic. And even if you use it on a regular basis, it - like any other instruction - needs to make sense in the context of your tactic as a whole. Having fast players up top is not a sufficient reason for using the pass into space TI (because the instruction is not solely about so-called "killer through balls"). 

 

3 hours ago, braddockmatt said:

Also against the top teams how would you set up against them ? Try to be compact defensively? Push them outside?

First sort out the regular tactic (before thinking about playing against top teams). 

[poma]

On 21/01/2021 at 16:59, Experienced Defender said:

 

- be less aggressive/more sensible out of possession (drop the LOE by just one notch, remove stay on feet and use the split block instead of extreme pressing)

 

Split Block you say...

Striker, AML, AMC and AMR then?

[Experienced Defender]

4 minutes ago, poma said:

Split Block you say...

Striker, AML, AMC and AMR then?

Yes, that's the split block.

[poma]

So if you looking at this how would you setup Kovacic and Jorginho? Maybe it's not even possible but...

How To Boss The Midfield Like Kovacic and Jorginho – Tactical Analysis

(maybe this should be asked separately in another thread)

Edited February 9, 2021 by poma