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[FM21] A Complete Guide to Quick Transitions and Counter Attacking Football


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  • engamohd changed the title to [FM21] A Complete Guide to Quick Transitions and Counter Attacking Football
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Another really good thread, top work! ūüĎŹ

Currently I am trying replicate Aston Villa’s tactics this season that I believe reflects a 4-4-1-1. This has provided some excellent ideas that I will try implement in my current save! Thank you

Edited by benhoward12
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2 minutes ago, benhoward12 said:

Another really good thread, top work! ūüĎŹ

Currently I am trying replicant Aston Villa’s tactics this season that I believe reflects a 4-4-1-1. This has provided some excellent ideas that I will try implement in my current save! Thank you

Cheers :)

Villa has a really solid squad that can easily fit and play well in a 4-4-1-1. Grealish, Watkins, Ghazi, and Trezeguet should make a very nice counter attacking team!

Would love to see how you fare.

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Is it just myself that none of the images are working for? 

Very good read though, will certainly help with creating something that isn't just the usual high pressing, attacking possession style that so far has been my only way of being successful. 

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Great stuff.

Been trying to implement something similar on FM17, but have used a asymmetric 4-4-1-1 with the AM and CF offset (the CF on the side of the WMa, the AM on the side of the Ws).

You should be careful playing like this though. You‚Äôll get lots of people saying that you‚Äôre a ‚ÄúPE teacher‚ÄĚ and need to be a better coach that focuses on ‚Äúpatterns of play‚Ä̬†:lol:

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Why the play out of defence if you want to play counter-attacking? Would that not slow the transitions down? As you said in an earlier post, defenders on high mentality will still pass it out from the back, it is on lower mentalities they tend to hoof it without that instruction.

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Another very good and interesting topic.

I came back to FM 17 after being fired at FM Touch 20, but later this year I will probably migrate to FM 21 - full version - so I can test these instructions. 

In 17 I play Counter with a Poacher upfront and a N10 behind him in a 4-4-1-1 and it also work wonders, but I did on purpose to make it more similar to a "Fluid" instead of a "Direct" style.

Do you think in the style you presented¬†the flanks could also work with a Winger on Support instead of the Inverted Winger on Attack? Maybe on this option one of the FB S could be replaced by a FB AT behind¬†the WM S, and the most defensive midfielder could move to the flank where the FB AT operates. Then the CM S would be probably replaced by a BBM S to be one of the team¬īs ball carriers.

I prefer setting up the flanks like this, I think it give me more options and I also don¬īt like this kind of players moving to the middle on this style, but I would like to hear your opinion.

Edited by Tsuru
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54 minutes ago, Vizzini said:

Why the play out of defence if you want to play counter-attacking? Would that not slow the transitions down? As you said in an earlier post, defenders on high mentality will still pass it out from the back, it is on lower mentalities they tend to hoof it without that instruction.

Playing out of defence would bring your players deeper to assist with build up play. 

This in turn will draw the opposition out, leaving space to attack. 

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4 minutos atr√°s, CJ_Randell disse:

Playing out of defence would bring your players deeper to assist with build up play. 

This in turn will draw the opposition out, leaving space to attack. 

I have never thought about Play out Of Defence this way, very interesting point of view.

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1 minute ago, Tsuru said:

I have never thought about Play out Of Defence this way, very interesting point of view.

Bare in mind the mentality set to positive will also instruct players to play slightly more direct passing at a slightly higher tempo. 

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Great post @engamohd How does it fare against teams who park the bus? Do they still fall into the trap or do you need to apply this tactic against better teams who will push for a goal?

I bet you get some good 'edge of your seat gameplay' either way. I would love to see some end of season stats with this. Particularly how it managed in Europe. 

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17 hours ago, carloshcorbalan said:

please ..... tactical link to download ...:thup:

The tactic is exactly as posted in the OP!

14 hours ago, [SFW]Medic Tim said:

Good work

Thank you!

 

8 hours ago, Wavelberry said:

I have many DMs in my team so what you would say to the tweaks

DM (BWM) SV(S)

and the AM being a second striker?

You mean 4222 DM? I don't like leaving the AM spot exposed, especially that the midfielders are more deep. I'd go either for a 442 or a 4411 2DM.

You also need to think about the ball carriers.

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8 hours ago, CJ_Randell said:

Is it just myself that none of the images are working for? 

Very good read though, will certainly help with creating something that isn't just the usual high pressing, attacking possession style that so far has been my only way of being successful. 

It is working well for me. I post the images on imgur, maybe you are having an issue with it?

Thank you! I hope you have some success with this style ;)

6 hours ago, howard moon said:

Great stuff.

Been trying to implement something similar on FM17, but have used a asymmetric 4-4-1-1 with the AM and CF offset (the CF on the side of the WMa, the AM on the side of the Ws).

You should be careful playing like this though. You‚Äôll get lots of people saying that you‚Äôre a ‚ÄúPE teacher‚ÄĚ and need to be a better coach that focuses on ‚Äúpatterns of play‚Ä̬†:lol:

Cheers! This style was much easier on FM17, I remember implementing a similar 4-1-3-2 narrow on it, which was massively successfull.

*Looks at his trophy cabinet* I am happy that way :lol:

 

Who said this about Mourinho though?!

Edited by engamohd
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4 hours ago, Vizzini said:

Why the play out of defence if you want to play counter-attacking? Would that not slow the transitions down? As you said in an earlier post, defenders on high mentality will still pass it out from the back, it is on lower mentalities they tend to hoof it without that instruction.

Good question.

I need my team to counter fluidly, rather than hoof it forward, especially that my further most player is playing deep. I use the PoD TI to make sure that we get the ball to the ball carriers and not lose the ball aimlessly, which will also keep us under extended pressure.

 

Edited by engamohd
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4 hours ago, Tsuru said:

Another very good and interesting topic.

I came back to FM 17 after being fired at FM Touch 20, but later this year I will probably migrate to FM 21 - full version - so I can test these instructions. 

In 17 I play Counter with a Poacher upfront and a N10 behind him in a 4-4-1-1 and it also work wonders, but I did on purpose to make it more similar to a "Fluid" instead of a "Direct" style.

Do you think in the style you presented¬†the flanks could also work with a Winger on Support instead of the Inverted Winger on Attack? Maybe on this option one of the FB S could be replaced by a FB AT behind¬†the WM S, and the most defensive midfielder could move to the flank where the FB AT operates. Then the CM S would be probably replaced by a BBM S to be one of the team¬īs ball carriers.

I prefer setting up the flanks like this, I think it give me more options and I also don¬īt like this kind of players moving to the middle on this style, but I would like to hear your opinion.

This is certainly a nice spin off, that I can see working, especially against teams with advanced wingers (4231s 433s etc). However, I'd go like this as a start:

PF-S/DLF-S

AM-A

W-A - BWM-D - RPM-S - WM-S

FB-A - CD-D - CD-D - FB-S

SK-D

That way, your carriers are the Winger and the RPM, supported by the AM and WM. Of course, the DLF/PF is the same offensive pivot.

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1 hour ago, Plugpin said:

Great post @engamohd How does it fare against teams who park the bus? Do they still fall into the trap or do you need to apply this tactic against better teams who will push for a goal?

I bet you get some good 'edge of your seat gameplay' either way. I would love to see some end of season stats with this. Particularly how it managed in Europe. 

Thank you!

We tend to be solid against bus parkers, and not completely blowing them.

In these games, I may go Attacking, and/or remove the Regroup shout, to add more control. The WBiB shout helps a lot too in these situations.

You are correct in that this style is much better against attacking teams though, especially in Europe. Well deffo share end of season results.

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Your tactic gives me Mourinho Spurs vibes. Hojberg as the midfield anchor/ball-winner, Son and Ndombele as the ball carriers and Kane as the offensive pivot. I'm excited for what is to come in this tactics series. Any chance of a preview?:lol: I've always felt that the tactics creator is needlessly complex and counter-intuitive but your clear and considered decisions suggest that you are someone that understands how to transfer their ideas to the game easily

Edited by camoulton21
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I've been thinking of starting with either Leicester or Newcastle & I think this could be perfect for both of them. Maybe a couple of tweaks to roles to suit the players but the style itself should lend itself well to both teams. 

Hopefully as I get better & my reputation improves, I could tweak the style a little but even then, it should invite those teams that want to "park the bus" out a little more & create space.

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1 minute ago, retrodude09 said:

I've been thinking of starting with either Leicester or Newcastle & I think this could be perfect for both of them. Maybe a couple of tweaks to roles to suit the players but the style itself should lend itself well to both teams. 

Hopefully as I get better & my reputation improves, I could tweak the style a little but even then, it should invite those teams that want to "park the bus" out a little more & create space.

My initial thought was Newcastle, ASM as the IW, Almiron as AP and Wilson DLF.
Could be lethal.

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1 hour ago, engamohd said:

Cheers! This style was much easier on FM17, I remember implementing a similar 4-1-3-2 narrow on it, which was massively successfull.

*Looks at his trophy cabinet* I am happy that way :lol:

 

How said this about Mourinho though?!

It's what people have called Solskjaer. He was my first thought when I was reading your post.

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45 minutes ago, CJ_Randell said:

My initial thought was Newcastle, ASM as the IW, Almiron as AP and Wilson DLF.
Could be lethal.

Yeah I think Newcastle could be good. 

Leicester you would have Barnes, Madison & Vardy plus the likes of Tielemans & Ndidi 

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2 horas atr√°s, engamohd disse:

This is certainly a nice spin off, that I can see working, especially against teams with advanced wingers (4231s 433s etc). However, I'd go like this as a start:

PF-S/DLF-S

AM-A

W-A - BWM-D - RPM-S - WM-S

FB-A - CD-D - CD-D - FB-S

SK-D

That way, your carriers are the Winger and the RPM, supported by the AM and WM. Of course, the DLF/PF is the same offensive pivot.

Very interesting. So would you position the FB-A and the W-A on the same side? I would always become afraid that would expose my flank too much, but maybe the other side on Support could balance this. It's worth a try, thank you!

Edited by Tsuru
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2 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

Your tactic gives me Mourinho Spurs vibes. Hojberg as the midfield anchor/ball-winner, Son and Ndombele as the ball carriers and Kane as the offensive pivot. I'm excited for what is to come in this tactics series. Any chance of a preview?:lol: I've always felt that the tactics creator is needlessly complex and counter-intuitive but your clear and considered decisions suggest that you are someone that understands how to transfer their ideas to the game easily

Thank you, I appreciate your kind words! I believe that thinking in a structured, educated way is the best way to translate your ideas into anything :)

Mourinho's Spurs is definitely the best team playing like this in real life, along with Atletico Madrid. My team is based loosely on these two teams.


Preview: I am not fully settled on the next article, but I am thinking about the player roles, any ideas?

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38 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Very interesting. So would you position the FB-A and the W-A on the same side? I would always become afraid that would expose my flank too much, but maybe the other side on Support could balance this. It's worth a try, thank you!

If you find yourself exposed then a WB-S is a good option. I don't want a conservative FB-S behind a W-A to offer the winger some support, especially that the defensive mid is next to him, so the winger deffo lacks support.

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52 minutes ago, RCCook said:

Good article. How would you set up this tactic in a 4-1-4-1 DM wide formation? 

If I want to field a 4-1-4-1 DM Wide formation, then deffo I'd play in the same way like the 4-4-1-1, I don't think it would be any different, besides perhaps an IF-S instead of the WM-S. 

 

Deeper winger formations work better in this particular style though.

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1 hour ago, howard moon said:

It's what people have called Solskjaer. He was my first thought when I was reading your post.

Ole is making a really good counter attacking team, to be completely honest (not as good as us though :P)

United played a very nice game against us on Sunday.

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2 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

I've been thinking of starting with either Leicester or Newcastle & I think this could be perfect for both of them. Maybe a couple of tweaks to roles to suit the players but the style itself should lend itself well to both teams. 

Hopefully as I get better & my reputation improves, I could tweak the style a little but even then, it should invite those teams that want to "park the bus" out a little more & create space.

With a bit of aggression, you can easily beat the bus parkers. I find going on Attacking is enough to get a goal or two, and then park the bus myself :lol:

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I'm confused about how much of an effect the 'in possession' instructions have on your ability to counter.

Can you play good counter attacking football despite instructions such as 'low tempo' and 'play out of defence' as long as the counter instruction is ticked? Or would increasing the tempo and adding instructions like 'pass into space' increase the quality and frequency of counters?

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Agora, Bot Makel disse:

 

Great post as always. The only doubt is about the BWMde. Aren't you likely to leave the position too often in a very delicate role?

This is a question I ask myself too, but I think a basic CM D might work here as well.

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3 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

I'm confused about how much of an effect the 'in possession' instructions have on your ability to counter.

Can you play good counter attacking football despite instructions such as 'low tempo' and 'play out of defence' as long as the counter instruction is ticked? Or would increasing the tempo and adding instructions like 'pass into space' increase the quality and frequency of counters?

Low tempo?? In positve mentality there is preset high time.

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2 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

This is a question I ask myself too, but I think a basic CM D might work here as well.

Absolutely, mine was a question about what he saw on the pitch precisely because I avoid using that role to have a more disciplined one. Instead I still used a BWMsu to maybe cover a WBsu

Edited by Bot Makel
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7 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

I'm confused about how much of an effect the 'in possession' instructions have on your ability to counter.

Can you play good counter attacking football despite instructions such as 'low tempo' and 'play out of defence' as long as the counter instruction is ticked? Or would increasing the tempo and adding instructions like 'pass into space' increase the quality and frequency of counters?

The in possession instructions affect how you use the ball. Generally (out side counter attacks) I need to hold the ball and not hoof it long, hence these instructions. Also, I use a Positive mentality that sets the tempo higher by default.

Counters are initiated by drawing the opposition deep, and when the team is on the counter in the ME, the mentality is maxed for the players involved.

The positive mentality also makes the team take more risks and therefore exploit any openings more often. However, the TIs will dictate how we create using the ball when there is no counter. I basically tell them (don't hoof it forward).

I hope it is clearer now.

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13 minutes ago, Bot Makel said:

 

Great post as always. The only doubt is about the BWMde. Aren't you likely to leave the position too often in a very delicate role?

 

9 minutes ago, Bot Makel said:

 

Absolutely, mine was a question about what he saw on the pitch precisely because I avoid using that role to have a more disciplined one. Instead I still used a BWMsu to maybe cover a WBsu

Absolutely, a CM-D can work well here. My thought process was that I am using (Urgent Pressing) rather than Much More Urgent and we are taking a risk by being deep, so I want my destroyer (who is ideally someone like Kante) to relentlessly seek the ball and press much more than the rest of the team, hence the BWM role. If I want to be more conservative, I'd go with a CM-D or a DLP-D.

Edited by engamohd
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4 minutes ago, engamohd said:

The in possession instructions affect how you use the ball. Generally (out side counter attacks) I need to hold the ball and not hoof it long, hence these instructions. Also, I use a Positive mentality that sets the tempo higher by default.

Counters are initiated by drawing the opposition deep, and when the team is on the counter in the ME, the mentality is maxed for the players involved.

The positive mentality also makes the team take more risks and therefore exploit any openings more often. However, the TIs will dictate how we create using the ball when there is no counter. I basically tell them (don't hoof it forward).

I hope it is clearer now.

Yes that's what I thought thanks.

So you don't have to worry about POD as it won't slow down transitions when a counter is on @Vizzini

 

Edited by Jack722
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26 minutes ago, engamohd said:

If I want to field a 4-1-4-1 DM Wide formation, then deffo I'd play in the same way like the 4-4-1-1, I don't think it would be any different, besides perhaps an IF-S instead of the WM-S. 

 

Deeper winger formations work better in this particular style though.

So would you use a BWM-D in the DM position, and an AP-A and CM-S in the central midfield? 

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1 minute ago, RCCook said:

So would you use a BWM-D in the DM position, and an AP-A and CM-S in the central midfield? 

Precisely, yes.

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4 minutes ago, engamohd said:

Absolutely, a CM-D can work well here. My thought process was that I am using (Urgent Pressing) rather than Much More Urgent and we are taking a risk by being deep, so I want my destroyer (who is ideally someone like Kante) to relentlessly seek the ball and press much more than the rest of the team, hence the BWM role. If I want to be more conservative, I'd go with a CM-D or a DLP-D.

In fact, I thought about the fact that the more intense generalized pressing could still affect a classic role.

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1 minute ago, Bot Makel said:

In fact, I thought about the fact that the more intense generalized pressing could still affect a classic role.

Of course it will, I just want that guy alone to go to the extreme possible pressing, while being covered by the rest of the team. I didn't have issues with that -so far- unless he fails a tackle or gets dribbled past.

 

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6 hours ago, engamohd said:

Precisely, yes.

I gave that a run in the last 3 matches with my Wolfsburg save, and got 2 wins and a draw. Gonna work on finding a better AP in the upcoming transfer window, but overall, very promising stuff.

Really liked how the striker plays, as I have one that's very well-suited towards ball retention (he's a natural TM) and I'd been trying to create a tactic like this, where he holds up the ball and lays it off to the runners.

Definitely looking forward to more of your articles!

 

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2 hours ago, RCCook said:

I gave that a run in the last 3 matches with my Wolfsburg save, and got 2 wins and a draw. Gonna work on finding a better AP in the upcoming transfer window, but overall, very promising stuff.

Really liked how the striker plays, as I have one that's very well-suited towards ball retention (he's a natural TM) and I'd been trying to create a tactic like this, where he holds up the ball and lays it off to the runners.

Definitely looking forward to more of your articles!

 

Thank you! Glad you managed to get it working :)

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Very interesting topic ! It confirmed a lot of things I was not sure about.

In your fist post, you talked about the choice of formation. What about 4-4-2 ?

I was wondering how to integrate the second striker in that system. The first one is obviously a TM/DLF in Support, the offensive pivot. But should we considered the other one as a ball carrier ? Or it is just a finisher (P, AF), and then we need to have one of two MC with a more runner role (BBM or RPM, which could be considered as one is this particular style) ?

 

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23 hours ago, Wavelberry said:

I have many DMs in my team so what you would say to the tweaks

DM (BWM) SV(S)

and the AM being a second striker?

 

And my question applies also to 4-4-2 with 2 DM (or 4-2-2-2 as FM calls it).

A simple DM(s) and a SV(s) works fine, but you should think to have a higher Defensive line instead of lower LOE

Edited by Tibalg
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4 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

This is excellent stuff, really brilliant OP

Cheers, thank you!

3 hours ago, Tibalg said:

Very interesting topic ! It confirmed a lot of things I was not sure about.

In your fist post, you talked about the choice of formation. What about 4-4-2 ?

I was wondering how to integrate the second striker in that system. The first one is obviously a TM/DLF in Support, the offensive pivot. But should we considered the other one as a ball carrier ? Or it is just a finisher (P, AF), and then we need to have one of two MC with a more runner role (RPM or BBM) ?

 

And my question applies also to 4-4-2 with 2 DM (or 4-2-2-2 as FM calls it).

A simple DM(s) and a SV(s) works fine, but you should think to have a higher Defensive line instead of lower LOE

Maybe I'd drop the lower LOE since we are naturally low, but this will require watching the games and taking notes

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