Jump to content

Scripted?


Recommended Posts

How can one argue that there isn't a small degree of scripting going on here? I have played a team 5 times now tying all 5 matches with the opponent scoring in Extra time of all 5 matches. I have used 4 different tactics at various times. I have played without team talk and with team talk with no difference. I have continued to attack the entire game no difference. I have played stall ball at the end to preserve lead no difference. I have simply let the tactic play out and not touch anything no difference. All 5 games ended either 1-1 or 2-2 with me have the lead all 5 games going into extra time. Something is very very very wrong with this game to continuously get the exact same result. I don't have screen shots for the first 2 because I couldn't smell the rat yet but I do have shots for match 3, 4 and 5. It isn't over yet either. I am about to do match 6. This is just crazy to me.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So the first question, who benefits from the game being scripted against you? 

Second question, how do you think its being done? What criteria have triggered it in this one particular game that you have to lose but you've been able to win other games in the past?

Just throwing out "scripted" is bilge. 

It's very difficult to provide any meaningful commentary because there's a dramatic lack of details. It does lend itself to being able to make your point since no one can meaningfully argue whether what you've done is effective or not.

However, based upon the fact you're getting to the same stage of the game and losing in extra time its rather apparent that for all the variation you think you're trying... you're not actually doing all that much different. Obviously its not a disaster the starting point you operate from because you're not just losing within the 90 minutes. But its clearly ineffective against the opposition who are ultimately exposing you late in the game and you don't adjust. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Having been through great runs and poor runs one thing that I noticed is that your morale makes it likely to concede or score late equalisers. I went through a terrible run at the end of my first season not winning in 14 and when I was drawing or winning and I would concede a late equaliser/winner more often than not (and my morale was crap). New season and the morale is good and I find myself getting more last minute equalisers and winners. My personal take is that morale has quite a powerful modifying effect (too powerful IMHO but I can see the argument for it just look at Sheffield United this season) so when you're in whichever rut you are it can seem like it keeps happening.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

This. I always have the same question: why is only "scripting" when people can't win, not when they're on a hot streak? 

Indeed. I always wondered this too. Maybe the game is scripted so that you come from behind to win against a title rival and win the league. 

I never got the logic of this either. Why would SI make a game where it has scripts to punish the users? This makes zero sense. 

Accept that sometimes you lose. It happens. I just got pumped 3-0 at home by the bottom of the table team who scored 3 almost identical goals. Scripted? No, I was tidying as I played and did not notice what was happening and so did not respond to the obvious flaw in my setup. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Since people like to win, I don't understand why a developer would script things against the player in this case because sales of the game would likely decrease if people were constantly getting beaten.

On a game with micro transactions where a defeat can be made less likely by parting you from your cash - yes. The game doesn't need to be made arbitrarily harder, and the developer would gain zero advantage from coding this.

Also, there are numerous threads this year with people talking about how easy it is to just pick a default tactic and press continue and win leagues ad infinitum. At the same time you're saying it's scripted against you because you drew a game.

So is your copy scripted and other people's isn't?

Is every match you win down to something you are doing and every match you don't win down to the game being against you?

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Administrators

Posted this a while back in relation to superkeepers and being 'FM'd' with some elements referencing towards scripting so will throw it in here. Short answer to is the game scripted is "no".

Quote

Remember with the match engine it's a representation of football. It isn't 100% perfect. Each chance that happens is calculated based on all the many many factors which happen within the FM gameworld and match situation at that time. There is no difference between what can happen for the player or the AI - if there's such a thing as 'superkeepers' (which for the record we've seen nothing in the code to suggest this) then the AI would encounter it just as often as the player.

The player will always have an advantage over the AI because they have more freedom to think and experiment. We tend to find players use much more attacking and aggressive tactics as a whole, which can cause them to create more chances overall, but often leave themselves exposed at the back which means the AI get much easier chances on the counter attack. This can cause imbalanced match stats where a player has had lots of shots (not always from good positions) and not converted, where the AI has very few shots, but those they do have are from extremely good positions which are converted.

This is partly why our moderators use tactical reasoning as a starting point for issues raised on our official forums.

Everything influences the match, to the extent if I tried to list everything here it'd take an extremely long time.

Aside from the many external factors which can influence (weather, player morale, importance of match, referee, where the fixture takes place, whether the away team has had to travel a significant distance for the fixture etc) every single attribute (both hidden and visible) for every single player has it taken into account, but certain elements will change every time a match is 'replayed'. Absolutely there is a random element in game much like there is real life, whereby luck and chance will be involved.

For instance, your best player makes a costly mistake in the first minute of match one - this affects him with an instant drop in confidence and he has a poor game, struggling to find his form. In match two, he makes a key assist, gains confidence and plays exceptionally well.

The role of the manager is to use all the elements they have at their disposal (player recruitment, tactics, form management, team talks etc) to make the best choices possible for each and every fixture. But even in doing so, even if you get everything absolutely perfect, in some instances you will still lose or draw a match you would expect to win. That is football in real life. That is also how it works in FM. The game does not 'decide' you are suddenly going to lose because it's programmed that way. You only win or lose depending on the hundreds of factors which go into every match which is then calculated in the match engine based on every single decision that happens. For every pass, each player will use their attributes (such as vision and decisions) to calculate all the available options for said pass. Higher the vision, more options available. Once in that split-second they've decided what pass to play, more attributes are used (such as passing, composure and technique) for the player to attempt said pass. But even then other factors will determine whether the pass is successful - the other player's anticipation and positioning, whether the ball is played hard or soft and is affected by the wind, whether an opposing player has very high anticipation and decisions to intercept the ball.

A huge number of calculations are used just for one pass. Now multiply that across the entire game for every single thing that happens in the match, there are thousands if not millions. And bear in mind for every single calculation the match engine does not determine any difference between the AI and the user player - this is not a factor taken into account.

So when you ask what decides the result of the match or a weaker time scoring with a shot, it's pretty much everything. Except whether the teams are AI controlled or user controlled. As this is not something used in any calculation.

But all the above has to sit into the constraints of trying to produce an accurate representation of football. It's not an easy task and we've never claimed it is. But it's something we're extremely passionate about and work incredibly hard towards. Some people may feel the ME has become more restricted or predictable, but we disagree. The elements worked on under the hood are pretty extraordinary and whilst the payoff may not always be obvious to the casual observer, I can assure you the building blocks are in place to continue to make strides forward in making the game more realistic.

Saying all of that (and I'm aware we're in TL;DR territory here), there are always going to be anomalies and matches where you get 'FM'd' - largely this is down to the point I made above; the general inclination of user to play attacking, expansive football compared to the AI's generally more conservative approach. But there will be occasions where someone is just plain unlucky. If you're being 'unlucky' a lot, there has to be a responsibility on the manager that there is something clearly not right. Now you may feel aggrieved if you feel this is less a 'football' mistake and more a 'match engine' mistake, but within your FM gameworld they are the same. We aim one day for the two things to be absolutely interchangeable and already we feel we're well on our way there.
 

Quote

We've made it extremely clear on a number of occasions the game is not scripted. What happens is the match plays out initially based on all the factors present at the start of the game (such as tactics, team selection, weather, referee - everything) then depending on changes made during the match by the AI and user manager, the match is recalculated based on those.

So in theory when you click 'Kick Off' the match has been played through already based on all the thousands of factors which go into the match (so could be that the play-through of the match, the AI wins 2-0) - then based on the changes you or the AI then make to your team during the match, the game is played through again from the point of changes, so is recalculated. Which would then like a 'butterfly effect' change the course of the first 'play through'. So after this second recalculation the initial final score (which neither the AI nor the user can see) can change.

As an example, let's say you went more attacking after 5 mins - the result using these changes alongside all the other factors recalculates the final score as 4-0 to the AI. Or perhaps you go more defensive and bring on a different LB - it recalculates as a 2-2 draw.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe it is as simple as the opposition just had better stamina than your team and were able to do what they needed In order to win. Ultimately that's probably going to make a bigger impact to the final result than a couple of little tactical tweaks and doing or not doing certain team talks :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

The irony is that not making any changes whatsoever during the match is pimarily the cause for seeing the same results over and over...

 

You forget that the match day is only the end result of a long string of events that cumulate in a match result... 

 

Fitness, morale, injuries, weather, the referee, form, previous ties ... it all ties into the result...  when you reload the save, all of those factors are the same, changing tactic is one variable in a long list

Link to post
Share on other sites

There are two possibilities here. O

ne is that a sneaky, sneaky SI employee has written a special piece of code to ensure that the match engine magically makes you personally concede at a certain time in one particular match

The other is that SI took into account the fact that real life managers attack more late on in games when needing results, and this completely normal, realistic and predictable behaviour catches you out each time.

I wonder which is more likely.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, enigmatic said:

There are two possibilities here. O

ne is that a sneaky, sneaky SI employee has written a special piece of code to ensure that the match engine magically makes you personally concede at a certain time in one particular match

The other is that SI took into account the fact that real life managers attack more late on in games when needing results, and this completely normal, realistic and predictable behaviour catches you out each time.

I wonder which is more likely.

 

 

And they come on here and say 'I never did anything differently and every time the same thing happened'  

Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel that technically the game is not "scripted" in a way that says if a then b.

But i guess it is scripted in a way that if a+b+c=d  then increase probability of x to z.

And that may feel or be percived as if it is a scripted outcome.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No scripting.

Sometimes the satisfaction and expectation of the players is too high. IMy experience is here, you have to build a rotation-plan. You should  really use more than 1 tactic. And so on. And finally the key of the game is - motivation. Sometimes i think it is a really motivation-simulator :lol:


 
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 16/01/2021 at 19:08, Junkhead said:

Since people like to win, I don't understand why a developer would script things against the player in this case because sales of the game would likely decrease if people were constantly getting beaten.

On a game with micro transactions where a defeat can be made less likely by parting you from your cash - yes. The game doesn't need to be made arbitrarily harder, and the developer would gain zero advantage from coding this.

Also, there are numerous threads this year with people talking about how easy it is to just pick a default tactic and press continue and win leagues ad infinitum. At the same time you're saying it's scripted against you because you drew a game.

So is your copy scripted and other people's isn't?

Is every match you win down to something you are doing and every match you don't win down to the game being against you?

Dont think the developer originally set out to make it scripted but maybe technology has not caught up with what they are trying to do . Maybe the influences we do during the games is not enough and or there is too much random in the game . If you dont do anything to the game and it calculates it out before showing the match then that is scripted in my book . So if we dont so enough to influence or change the result then that is also scripted .

Link to post
Share on other sites

The game is not scripted at all, why would the devs do that? Still yet to see a reasonable explanation as to why any dev would include it in a game. The only effect is to annoy the customers.

However, what happens is that the game is calculated before the game starts, during the "teams are warming up"-wait. At that point the game knows what will happen IF the user does not intervene. The game does this to know when to show the user a highlight. So if the user does nothing, the game will be played out as calculated at the start. If the user makes subs, or changes tactics or anything else that affects the match, then the match is recalculated from the point that the change is taking effect and then the game again knows what happens if there are no further changes.

So the game is not calculated to make any team win or lose, but the game knows what happens before the user is shown since it needs to know what it should show the user.

Neil has given the a good explanation of the same above for those who want the same directly from SI.

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, alian62 said:

Dont think the developer originally set out to make it scripted but maybe technology has not caught up with what they are trying to do . Maybe the influences we do during the games is not enough and or there is too much random in the game . If you dont do anything to the game and it calculates it out before showing the match then that is scripted in my book . So if we dont so enough to influence or change the result then that is also scripted .

That isn't the same as it being scripted against the player which is what the op was talking about.

And my understanding is that isn't how the game works anyway.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 16/01/2021 at 00:44, freddieos said:

so what if the game has scripted a little rut for you? Serves you right for save scumming the first draw :).

Just play through it.

Who says I save scummed? I kept the original result. Nothing wrong with looking under the hood though is there?

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 16/01/2021 at 02:13, santy001 said:

So the first question, who benefits from the game being scripted against you? 

Second question, how do you think its being done? What criteria have triggered it in this one particular game that you have to lose but you've been able to win other games in the past?

Just throwing out "scripted" is bilge. 

It's very difficult to provide any meaningful commentary because there's a dramatic lack of details. It does lend itself to being able to make your point since no one can meaningfully argue whether what you've done is effective or not.

However, based upon the fact you're getting to the same stage of the game and losing in extra time its rather apparent that for all the variation you think you're trying... you're not actually doing all that much different. Obviously its not a disaster the starting point you operate from because you're not just losing within the 90 minutes. But its clearly ineffective against the opposition who are ultimately exposing you late in the game and you don't adjust. 

Brother what? I have made a plethora of different adjustments. I have literally done 5 different formations and tactics mentalities the works and all the same result. I hate when people spew that and don't just admit some things just flat don't work right in this game

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 16/01/2021 at 04:45, themadsheep2001 said:

This. I always have the same question: why is only "scripting" when people can't win, not when they're on a hot streak? 

It isn't I see the script plain and well even when winning. I also wasn't losing. I am sitting pretty top of the league with Blyth and it was a draw not a loss.. I hate more when people don't read the original post and go on about something that is irrelevant to my questions

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 16/01/2021 at 02:13, santy001 said:

So the first question, who benefits from the game being scripted against you? 

Second question, how do you think its being done? What criteria have triggered it in this one particular game that you have to lose but you've been able to win other games in the past?

Just throwing out "scripted" is bilge. 

It's very difficult to provide any meaningful commentary because there's a dramatic lack of details. It does lend itself to being able to make your point since no one can meaningfully argue whether what you've done is effective or not.

However, based upon the fact you're getting to the same stage of the game and losing in extra time its rather apparent that for all the variation you think you're trying... you're not actually doing all that much different. Obviously its not a disaster the starting point you operate from because you're not just losing within the 90 minutes. But its clearly ineffective against the opposition who are ultimately exposing you late in the game and you don't adjust. 

SI benefits from scripts because it keeps games from getting out of hand and also times those irritating moments that really happen in soccer. SI benefits from the script because it makes the game resemble real life football unless you're actually watching the play by play moments then it's obviously fake

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 16/01/2021 at 06:10, Neil Brock said:

Posted this a while back in relation to superkeepers and being 'FM'd' with some elements referencing towards scripting so will throw it in here. Short answer to is the game scripted is "no".

 

I love all of that. That all sounds amazing. But it all literally goes out the window when the game decides it wants to do something. There is just about nothing you can do to guarantee your team concedes in extra time but all the sudden no matter what you do they concede in that one specific game especially. I never notice an extra time goal when I am 3-1 or 1-3 down but I always either get the game tying goal or concede a game tying goal. It's just strange and absolutely no way is it just a jumbled calculation that just so happens to end on the exact same result no matter what changes. I even played a fully rotated squad and was up 1-0 only to concede in the 93rd minute. Literally doesn't matter. Starters, backups, attacking, positive, cautious, balanced, wing play, middle of the park play, route one, control. All of these styles landed me a 1-1 or 2-2 draw with them scoring in extra time to tie it up. Just odd.

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 16/01/2021 at 12:36, enigmatic said:

There are two possibilities here. O

ne is that a sneaky, sneaky SI employee has written a special piece of code to ensure that the match engine magically makes you personally concede at a certain time in one particular match

The other is that SI took into account the fact that real life managers attack more late on in games when needing results, and this completely normal, realistic and predictable behaviour catches you out each time.

I wonder which is more likely.

 

 

I would say #1 is more likely because as much as losing teams like to attack around the end of the match winning teams like to defend. The result came the exact same way 5 times before it switched up and then went back to et draws for 3 more games. That is now 8 games with a tying goal in extra time. All the same match replayed from 3 days before the match. So I have done different team talks every time also. The problem here is that S.I has some issues to work out and admitting those issues might lose a boat load of players so they HAVE to deny any form of script. Maybe script isn't the EXACT word so they can truthfully deny it. But it would be Scriptings little brother. Half scripted ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Weird flex, but okay. You're free to have any delusions you wish about how the game works @Animal Mother but if you post them on the forums you will get abruptly introduced to the reality.

If you're content with just disregarding what everyone tells you, despite clearly being in a position of having a more intimate knowledge about its workings... then its not worth our time trying to help you understand - because you don't want to. As @themadsheep2001 says upload your save and someone will prove you wrong.

Link to post
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, alian62 said:

Dont think the developer originally set out to make it scripted but maybe technology has not caught up with what they are trying to do . Maybe the influences we do during the games is not enough and or there is too much random in the game . If you dont do anything to the game and it calculates it out before showing the match then that is scripted in my book . So if we dont so enough to influence or change the result then that is also scripted .

I guarantee people are having the exact same issue as me. Because obviously I don't have some one off bugged scripted copy of the game and I am also not lying about the results so therefor you are all experiencing this and it just doesn't bother you guys. I am winning the league. 15 game unbeaten run now. This is not the problem. If I go undefeated and draw one game because of some silly bonus the A.I gets because team shouts are broken and more harmful than good then why is that fun? How is a game calculated based off of me saying one player has been good in an interview and that determines the outcome of a match? OKkkkkayy

Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...