Jump to content

Napoli - help needed for non tiki-taka quick possession game


Recommended Posts

I hope some more proficient tactically users here could point me in the right direction to help me battle with my Napoli team for a CL spot in Serie A, based on the principles/ideas shown in the @engamohd's excellent "A Complete Guide to Mentality" thread.

I constantly change my mind or at least tweak here or there so maybe going back to basics is the best way to go forward and by that I mean setting a style as a base and only do minor adjustments depending on a situation, opponent etc. I am now on my work laptop so can't post screenshots or many details but here is some info what I've got:

In terms of attributes compared to the rest of the league:
In general - very good pace & acceleration, decisions, agility / good passing, first touch, fitness, stamina, anticipation / Poor determination, jumping, heading
(this last one for defenders is 11th/20 in Serie A so average I'd say and they still score some from set pieces).
Goalies - very good agility & handling / good 1v1 and reflexes / poor aerial & kicking
Defence - very good tackling, marking, pace / good acceleration, strength, positioning
Midfield - very good passing / good decisions, stamina
Forwards - very good acceleration / good pace, off the ball, anticipation, finishing / poor heading and jumping
(this is somewhat misleading as with 4231 my faster/shorter forwards usually play in AM strata and both Osimhen & Petagna who play upfront are both not too bad in the air while the former is also quite fast and the latter is quite strong and able to play as DLF, PF(s) or maybe even CF.

Looking at the above and the fact that a lot of opponents defend deep with a back 5 and leave a solo striker upfront I want to keep the ball and patiently wait for openings, mainly thanks to offensive wing backs and my more creative players' vision and flair. At the same I would like to pass the ball quickly.
In short I'd say ball control skills will be useful but pace not so much (at least when attacking, except wings or when we face teams with high D-line).

This is my standard formation at the moment:

                                      PF(a) Osimhen

IW(s) Insigne         AP(s)/AM(s) Zielinski           IF(a) Mertens/Politano

               BWM(d) Bakayoko     BBM(s)/RPM(s) Fabian

WB(a) M.Rui    BPD(st/d) Koulibaly   CD(co) Manolas      WB(s) Di Lorenzo
    (Ghoulam)                                                 (Maksimovic)          
                                   GK/SK(d) Ospina

It's based on the Gegenpress template with a few tweaks to encourage possession and wing backs' involvement, although I'd happily take more 2-0 wins without sweating near the end of a match if it meant less knocking the ball around with not much intent and therefore lower possession %.
As it is seems to work OK-ish against more adventurous teams (Juve, Milan, EL, plus some league games away vs average/weaker teams going for it on their pitch) but not really at home against a parked bus or in Europa League.

For those 'clear favourite' games let's say we start from scratch so this would now be the BASIC PLAN:

Cautious/Balanced + play out of defence + short passing + higher D-line (with a CD on Cover) to keep the ball as much as possible. POOD replaced by distribution to full backs when CD's are pressed heavily in the build-up.
Higher tempo - a) to offset low mentality, b) to pass the ball sideways quicker when there is a lot of bodies in front of their penalty area, and c) to stay awake while watching matches :D
Counter-press to prevent quick balls to their forward.
Less dribble - to not lose the ball by dribbling in congested areas.
GK roll out ball - since both goalies aren't good at kicking or long throws.
More urgent pressing (??) (or even much more) to use our pace and stamina plus help us win the ball back sooner and spend most of the time in opponent's half.
Counter (??) to off set low mentality when my PF or IF are in the position to receive the ball quickly and burst towards the goal.
Pass into space (??) - to use our good decisions, vision and anticipation and to liven up our passing. I haven't noticed too many balls wasted since playing with this on comparing to when it was off so quite happy to use it.

Situational tweaks:

Force opposition outside - often used vs teams playing with only Wing Backs out wide, sometimes combined with marking and/or closing down on them if they're dangerous passers/crossers.

For a lot of away games, especially vs Juve and Milan when their high D-line can be caught out thinking of reducing pressing and/or increasing tempo.
I also give my left WB Support duty instead of Attack if he needs to focus on a dangerous AMR.

And when facing 3 CD's telling my PF to roam more seemed to work well in some games where he managed regularly to get through balls for 1-on-1, not always the case though.

Does the above make any sense?

 

PS. Right now we keep swapping 4th/5th place with Milan, lost in Coppa Italia 1/4 final and with a bit of luck got to Europa League 1/4 final (in previous rounds 0-0 and 1-1 vs Villareal then 1-0 and 1-1 vs RB Leipzig). The board wants me to challenge for the Serie A title (unlikely to win it now) and get to the EL final so we need wins instead of draws and draws instead of losses. All this whilst playing attractive football.

PS2. I also experimented with 433 DM Wide in another save but also playing as Napoli. That had even less intent and we ended up losing fewer goals but scoring much fewer, so prefer 4231 for now.

Edited by right_winger
Link to post
Share on other sites

Without giving it too much thought - apologies I'm also working - I'd be temped to use a playmaker a tad deeper (Fabian as RPM) and use a SS or AM/a in the 10 sport behind the PF/a.  (as an aside, I really like the PF/s).

This would aid some deeper middle of the park possession and build up and also allow to a swifter attack once your team is more advanced.  Just an idea though.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks @Lordluap. I actually use the RPM + AM/s option in some games (my bad I didn't highlight this "plan B" clearer on my formation) but would need to observe it a bit more to come up with fair conclusions. With the RPM on the same side would you advise changing right WB to FB or not necessarily? Very few teams leave more than one ST upfront so 2x CD + BWM/d should be enough as defensive cover plus I want Di Lorenzo to often help offensively. But on the other hand that is how most Italian teams play - draw us in and hit on a counter.
Re PF/s - I had tried it for both my strikers but it was with a different formation I think. So tempted now to give it a chance again with an At duty in AM spot. Zielinski seemed to go crazy with through balls and long passes as Mezzala(a), likely to be similar as SS (although maybe he won't on team's lower mentality than positive I used back then) so will probably start with AM/a for him.

Ironically, playing as AP/s Zielinski tends to get better ratings when his area is congested than when there is no opposition DM and in theory he should have space to operate but that could also be a supply issue.

I won't test it till tonight but in the meantime keen to see other ideas and suggestions, especially for adjusting to tougher opposition or those more attacking Serie A teams. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, right_winger said:

I hope some more proficient tactically users here could point me in the right direction to help me battle with my Napoli team for a CL spot in Serie A, based on the principles/ideas shown in the @engamohd's excellent "A Complete Guide to Mentality" thread.

I constantly change my mind or at least tweak here or there so maybe going back to basics is the best way to go forward and by that I mean setting a style as a base and only do minor adjustments depending on a situation, opponent etc. I am now on my work laptop so can't post screenshots or many details but here is some info what I've got:

In terms of attributes compared to the rest of the league:
In general - very good pace & acceleration, decisions, agility / good passing, first touch, fitness, stamina, anticipation / Poor determination, jumping, heading
(this last one for defenders is 11th/20 in Serie A so average I'd say and they still score some from set pieces).
Goalies - very good agility & handling / good 1v1 and reflexes / poor aerial & kicking
Defence - very good tackling, marking, pace / good acceleration, strength, positioning
Midfield - very good passing / good decisions, stamina
Forwards - very good acceleration / good pace, off the ball, anticipation, finishing / poor heading and jumping
(this is somewhat misleading as with 4231 my faster/shorter forwards usually play in AM strata and both Osimhen & Petagna who play upfront are both not too bad in the air while the former is also quite fast and the latter is quite strong and able to play as DLF, PF(s) or maybe even CF.

Looking at the above and the fact that a lot of opponents defend deep with a back 5 and leave a solo striker upfront I want to keep the ball and patiently wait for openings, mainly thanks to offensive wing backs and my more creative players' vision and flair. At the same I would like to pass the ball quickly.
In short I'd say ball control skills will be useful but pace not so much (at least when attacking, except wings or when we face teams with high D-line).

This is my standard formation at the moment:

                                      PF(a) Osimhen

IW(s) Insigne         AP(s)/AM(s) Zielinski           IF(a) Mertens/Politano

               BWM(d) Bakayoko     BBM(s)/RPM(s) Fabian

WB(a) M.Rui    BPD(st/d) Koulibaly   CD(co) Manolas      WB(s) Di Lorenzo
    (Ghoulam)                                                 (Maksimovic)          
                                   GK/SK(d) Ospina

It's based on the Gegenpress template with a few tweaks to encourage possession and wing backs' involvement, although I'd happily take more 2-0 wins without sweating near the end of a match if it meant less knocking the ball around with not much intent and therefore lower possession %.
As it is seems to work OK-ish against more adventurous teams (Juve, Milan, EL, plus some league games away vs average/weaker teams going for it on their pitch) but not really at home against a parked bus or in Europa League.

For those 'clear favourite' games let's say we start from scratch so, looking at the first post, this would now be the BASIC PLAN:

Cautious/Balanced + play out of defence + short passing + higher D-line (with a CD on Cover) to keep the ball as much as possible. POOD replaced by distribution to full backs when CD's are pressed heavily in the build-up.
Higher tempo - a) to offset low mentality, b) to pass the ball sideways quicker when there is a lot of bodies in front of their penalty area, and c) to stay awake while watching matches :D
Counter-press to prevent quick balls to their forward.
Less dribble - to not lose the ball by dribbling in congested areas.
GK roll out ball - since both goalies aren't good at kicking or long throws.
More urgent pressing (??) (or even much more) to use our pace and stamina plus help us win the ball back sooner and spend most of the time in opponent's half.
Counter (??) to off set low mentality when my PF or IF are in the position to receive the ball quickly and burst towards the goal.
Pass into space (??) - to use our good decisions, vision and anticipation and to liven up our passing. I haven't noticed too many balls wasted since playing with this on comparing to when it was off so quite happy to use it.

Situational tweaks:

Force opposition outside - often used vs teams playing with only Wing Backs out wide, sometimes combined with marking and/or closing down on them if they're dangerous passers/crossers.

For a lot of away games, especially vs Juve and Milan when their high D-line can be caught out thinking of reducing pressing and/or increasing tempo.
I also give my left WB Support duty instead of Attack if he needs to focus on a dangerous AMR.

And when facing 3 CD's telling my PF to roam more seemed to work well in some games where he managed regularly to get through balls for 1-on-1, not always the case though.

Does the above make any sense?

 

PS. Right now we keep swapping 4th/5th place with Milan, lost in Coppa Italia 1/4 final and with a bit of luck got to Europa League 1/4 final (in previous rounds 0-0 and 1-1 vs Villareal then 1-0 and 1-1 vs RB Leipzig). The boards wants me to challenge for the Serie A title (unlikely to win it now) and get to the EL final so we need wins instead of draws and draws instead of losses. All this whilst playing attractive football.

PS2. I also experimented with 433 DM Wide in another save but also playing as Napoli. That had even less intent and we ended up losing fewer goals but scoring much fewer, so prefer 4231 for now.

The most important thing is space when you are against deep and narrow sides with numbers behind the ball. So you need to overload the flanks and utilize the space in front of their midfield. Let's think about it, mate. PFA is high, not going to contribute to the build-up. This means the rest of the attacking four has to create space for him and utilize the depth he increased by pinning the opposition CBs. IWS and IFA are going to cut inside. The APS is also deep in the centre, congesting the middle. As if this is not enough, the BBM is also going to compete space with your playmaker even though you have players outside of them providing some width. This means you only have one player screening your CBS sometimes and this is something you should think about when using a 4-2-3-1. 

When it comes to your instructions as far as I got, you want to keep the ball by taking minimum risks on and off the ball so Balanced is a good call:thup:.

Unlocking deep sides require utilizing full width of the pitch by probing chances patiently so I'd consider removing shorter passing and higher tempo.

Counter is also something I'd be wary of so I'd untick it and let my player decide to play it fast or slow according to the situation they are in because they have good decisions.

Pass into Space doesn't go hand in hand with your aim of keeping the ball. 

Why do you let WBs of narrow formations cross to your penalty area? What you only need to do is keep the defensive width standard and close down their WBs always by OI ing them.

When playing against high pressing sides, playing with at least two attack duty players, increasing tempo, ticking Regroup/Counter, reducing LOE, switching to Positive mentality(with required adjustments to TIs), passing into space, etc. may work well.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Experienced Defender as I said, I'll get to my FM laptop later so will do the screenshot then.

Higher D-line is mentioned at the top. LoE I like to keep on Standard, only situationally higher or lower, avoiding its extreme settings. By the way, is it generally advisable to stretch the DL-LoE distance when facing more "vertical" styles (Route One, Direct Counter, Vertical Tiki-Taka) or best to shift them both simultaneously?

Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, right_winger said:

I hope some more proficient tactically users here could point me in the right direction to help me battle with my Napoli team for a CL spot in Serie A, based on the principles/ideas shown in the @engamohd's excellent "A Complete Guide to Mentality" thread.

I constantly change my mind or at least tweak here or there so maybe going back to basics is the best way to go forward and by that I mean setting a style as a base and only do minor adjustments depending on a situation, opponent etc. I am now on my work laptop so can't post screenshots or many details but here is some info what I've got:

In terms of attributes compared to the rest of the league:
In general - very good pace & acceleration, decisions, agility / good passing, first touch, fitness, stamina, anticipation / Poor determination, jumping, heading
(this last one for defenders is 11th/20 in Serie A so average I'd say and they still score some from set pieces).
Goalies - very good agility & handling / good 1v1 and reflexes / poor aerial & kicking
Defence - very good tackling, marking, pace / good acceleration, strength, positioning
Midfield - very good passing / good decisions, stamina
Forwards - very good acceleration / good pace, off the ball, anticipation, finishing / poor heading and jumping
(this is somewhat misleading as with 4231 my faster/shorter forwards usually play in AM strata and both Osimhen & Petagna who play upfront are both not too bad in the air while the former is also quite fast and the latter is quite strong and able to play as DLF, PF(s) or maybe even CF.

Looking at the above and the fact that a lot of opponents defend deep with a back 5 and leave a solo striker upfront I want to keep the ball and patiently wait for openings, mainly thanks to offensive wing backs and my more creative players' vision and flair. At the same I would like to pass the ball quickly.
In short I'd say ball control skills will be useful but pace not so much (at least when attacking, except wings or when we face teams with high D-line).

This is my standard formation at the moment:

                                      PF(a) Osimhen

IW(s) Insigne         AP(s)/AM(s) Zielinski           IF(a) Mertens/Politano

               BWM(d) Bakayoko     BBM(s)/RPM(s) Fabian

WB(a) M.Rui    BPD(st/d) Koulibaly   CD(co) Manolas      WB(s) Di Lorenzo
    (Ghoulam)                                                 (Maksimovic)          
                                   GK/SK(d) Ospina

It's based on the Gegenpress template with a few tweaks to encourage possession and wing backs' involvement, although I'd happily take more 2-0 wins without sweating near the end of a match if it meant less knocking the ball around with not much intent and therefore lower possession %.
As it is seems to work OK-ish against more adventurous teams (Juve, Milan, EL, plus some league games away vs average/weaker teams going for it on their pitch) but not really at home against a parked bus or in Europa League.

For those 'clear favourite' games let's say we start from scratch so this would now be the BASIC PLAN:

Cautious/Balanced + play out of defence + short passing + higher D-line (with a CD on Cover) to keep the ball as much as possible. POOD replaced by distribution to full backs when CD's are pressed heavily in the build-up.
Higher tempo - a) to offset low mentality, b) to pass the ball sideways quicker when there is a lot of bodies in front of their penalty area, and c) to stay awake while watching matches :D
Counter-press to prevent quick balls to their forward.
Less dribble - to not lose the ball by dribbling in congested areas.
GK roll out ball - since both goalies aren't good at kicking or long throws.
More urgent pressing (??) (or even much more) to use our pace and stamina plus help us win the ball back sooner and spend most of the time in opponent's half.
Counter (??) to off set low mentality when my PF or IF are in the position to receive the ball quickly and burst towards the goal.
Pass into space (??) - to use our good decisions, vision and anticipation and to liven up our passing. I haven't noticed too many balls wasted since playing with this on comparing to when it was off so quite happy to use it.

Situational tweaks:

Force opposition outside - often used vs teams playing with only Wing Backs out wide, sometimes combined with marking and/or closing down on them if they're dangerous passers/crossers.

For a lot of away games, especially vs Juve and Milan when their high D-line can be caught out thinking of reducing pressing and/or increasing tempo.
I also give my left WB Support duty instead of Attack if he needs to focus on a dangerous AMR.

And when facing 3 CD's telling my PF to roam more seemed to work well in some games where he managed regularly to get through balls for 1-on-1, not always the case though.

Does the above make any sense?

 

PS. Right now we keep swapping 4th/5th place with Milan, lost in Coppa Italia 1/4 final and with a bit of luck got to Europa League 1/4 final (in previous rounds 0-0 and 1-1 vs Villareal then 1-0 and 1-1 vs RB Leipzig). The board wants me to challenge for the Serie A title (unlikely to win it now) and get to the EL final so we need wins instead of draws and draws instead of losses. All this whilst playing attractive football.

PS2. I also experimented with 433 DM Wide in another save but also playing as Napoli. That had even less intent and we ended up losing fewer goals but scoring much fewer, so prefer 4231 for now.

At the face of things, your formation appears to be undiscplined defensively. Your CM pairing do not hold possession and the full backs are very aggressive without DM cover.

I'd be inclined to change to the following:

bKUDwh3.jpeg

As you are one of the better sides in the league, I'd make the Positive mentality your base, together with the PooD and WBiB TIs.

If you need to hold the ball more, you could drop to Balanced, and put in the Pass Shorter instruction.

 

As always, I recommend that you begin with a few shouts and test things out. In your case, PooD, WBiB, Counter and Counter Press are a good start,

 

P.S. thank you for mentioning my thread, hopefully it is of some value to you. :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, right_winger said:

By the way, is it generally advisable to stretch the DL-LoE distance when facing more "vertical" styles (Route One, Direct Counter, Vertical Tiki-Taka) or best to shift them both simultaneously?

I personally prefer to have the DL just one notch higher than LOE, especially when playing in a top-heavy system without a DM such as 4231. So if I use higher DL, LOE is standard. If standard DL, then lower LOE. Much higher DL / higher LOE. And so on.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I will shortly do some testing with suggestions from all of you, but in the meantime here is my formation screenshot, as requested by @Experienced Defender
Some role adjustments have been done already (CM/d was BWM/d and DLF/a was PF/a previously) but this is more or less what I would try for my next home game.

Things to note:
- when Demme plays at LCM spot he seems to do better as BWM/d than CM/d (Bakayoko doesn't dive into tackles)
- considering also Dribble Less and Be More Expressive TI's
- possibly the BPD role for Koulibaly makes more sense for those games where we are more likely to counter every now and then, so against deep and defensive teams just a CD should be fine I guess
- Osimhen normally plays upfront, just noticed the ss was taken after last game with a one-off Lozano's appearance there.

napoli_4231.PNG

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, right_winger said:

considering also Dribble Less and Be More Expressive TI's

BME is okay, especially in combination with WBiB (because the two can offset potentially negative effects of each other).

But why Dribble less? 

In terms of roles and duties, the only tweak I would make is changing the RPM into DLP on support duty. With RPM, the right flank is overly exposed with both wide players being attack-minded (WBsu and IFat) without any proper defensive cover + there can occur a sort of competition for space and influence between the RPM and AM on support duty, especially in the final third. Last but not least, in a system such as 4231, it's always advisable that both CM roles be relatively conservative and disciplined in terms of movement (which RPM obviously is not). The DLP on support would solve both issues. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

BME is okay, especially in combination with WBiB (because the two can offset potentially negative effects of each other).

But why Dribble less? 

In terms of roles and duties, the only tweak I would make is changing the RPM into DLP on support duty. With RPM, the right flank is overly exposed with both wide players being attack-minded (WBsu and IFat) without any proper defensive cover + there can occur a sort of competition for space and influence between the RPM and AM on support duty, especially in the final third. Last but not least, in a system such as 4231, it's always advisable that both CM roles be relatively conservative and disciplined in terms of movement (which RPM obviously is not). The DLP on support would solve both issues. 

I would like to add that the wide defenders should also generally be more cautious in a 4231.

Thus, I'd change the WB-A and WB-S to a WB-S and FB-S respectively, giving you much more solidity, besides the RPM to DLP change suggested by ED. 

Edited by engamohd
Link to post
Share on other sites

Here I am, a bit later than I had hoped but that's what you get with work to be done and a newborn at home. Plus there were a few other matches before our San Paolo stadium saw a really defensive team on which I could do some testing.

Hellas Verona with their 5221WB (3CB+2WB+2CM+2AM+1ST) and Fluid Counter Attack.

Of course it's not a "proper" test or analysis (many here are far better at this than me) but still playing four times the same game allowed me to spot some differences, one or two odd things and most importantly come up with a decision on roles and shouts for games like this.

Most important things noted:

- Fabian as DLP saw a lot more of the ball than as RPM. In the latter case he even had less passes than Right FB/s and the same number as his midfield partner CM/d. Slightly lower completion percentage is understandable and suggests the RPM tried more risky passes than the other two.

- playing on Positive with DLF/a upfront as the only attack role, with LWB/s + RFB/s + DLP/d + CM/s + RIF/s resulted in the biggest possession percentage, number of shots (mostly crap) and control of the game but it was very dull. It got a bit more lively after changing mentality to Balanced, Left WB to attack duty and adding Focus Play Both Wings + Be More Expressive shouts. All this at the cost of less possession (still ended with 62%) and Verona countering slightly more often but we did have a higher xG than before those tweaks and finally scored. Ended 1-0, did the job but not impressive, especially as the board wants the team to play entertaining football.

- Striker (Petagna) didn't perform well as DLF/a and only played okay-ish as PF/s, might have been his (another) bad day, who knows. Interestingly, when Mertens subbed him and got given AF/a role he caused total chaos among their 3 CB's, even though he had played rubbish in the previous few games. During his 20 minutes on the pitch he had 4 or 5 one-on-ones (!), of which one he scored. Arguably, it had been 2-0 already but Verona still didn't look open at all and for all of those chances Mertens got on the end of the through balls in a quite tight area. Made me think that using AF/a or PF/a against deep defending teams could make sense with Balanced or lower mentalities, and the right player of course.

- Focus Play Both Wings seemed to have a very positive effect. In one case it was literally a gamechanger as the single tweak that has taken us from 0-0 at half time to winning 3-0, xG from 0.11 to 1.77, possession and pass completion up, all this while letting Verona do nothing at the same time. When I was watching it was clear to see how my central midfield and the solo striker drifted towards the flanks where and when necessary.

Without boring you any more I'll just add that this is now my base tactic against very defensive sides at home:

Balanced Mentality
POOD + WBIB + Shorter Passing
Counter-Press
Higher D-Line + More Urgent Press (or Standard if I want to invite them more towards me or I see my team getting out of shape too easily)

                      PF(a) or AF

IW(s)            AM(s)            IF(a)

         CM(d)         DLP(s)

WB(a)   CD(d)   CD(c)   WB(s)

                    GK(d)

For games where we need to be more careful but can also try and counter I'll look first at:

- giving LWB support duty, switching Right WB/s to FB/s and one of the CD's to BPD
- WBIB and Be More Expressive OFF
- Counter ON
- Play out of Defence OFF if opposition pressing gives our CD's hard time.
 

PS. So far it all looked fine in the two home games against "parked buses". 2-0 and 4-1 wins, although that second one was with the possession around 50%. Hmm...

Edited by right_winger
OCD...
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...