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[FM21.4] Netherlands (D7)


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  • Xavier Lukhas changed the title to [FM21] Netherlands (D7)

Nice work!!!!! Are the promotions/relegations work correctly in the lower regional divisions year by year? Is a common problem on lower league patches! Just asking though no intention to judge if it occurs here too!

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Il y a 1 heure, vourtsio a dit :

Nice work!!!!! Are the promotions/relegations work correctly in the lower regional divisions year by year? Is a common problem on lower league patches! Just asking though no intention to judge if it occurs here too!

They're unchanged from last season, so they should work as usual. I can tell you than putting together the promotion/relegation system for the Hoofdklasse, Eerste Klasse and Tweede Klasse hasn't been easy; which reminds me I've forgotten to credit (once again) Claassen as his efforts have also paved the way to this project. One of the minor issues present in the FM20 version in the lower leagues were delayed playoffs since there weren't enough stadiums. It did clear itself up once every club had built their own stadium, and had no real impact on the viability of the save. Now that most, if not all clubs in the Netherlands have a discrete stadium assigned to them, it shouldn't be an issue any longer for the FM21 version.

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I added a 21.3 file. In all honestly, you can "just" load the original file in 21.3 since there have been no changes whatsoever in the database that would cause an issue, but I went ahead and validated the file again to make sure. I don't think I'll bother with the Steam workshop file until 21.4 in March, or whenever SI finishes the transfer updates.

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On 23.02.2021 at 16:11, Xavier Lukhas said:

I added a 21.3 file. In all honestly, you can "just" load the original file in 21.3 since there have been no changes whatsoever in the database that would cause an issue, but I went ahead and validated the file again to make sure. I don't think I'll bother with the Steam workshop file until 21.4 in March, or whenever SI finishes the transfer updates.

Thank you...

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Il y a 1 heure, gpassosbh a dit :

I started a save with this update with Ajax, but start date in Netherlands is August 10th. Can you set this date to start earlier, as with this, I missed the first 3 games of the season and also the pre season. 

thanks @Xavier Lukhas

That's because of the COVID changes made by SI. The start date for vanilla, SI-made Eredivisie also is the 10th of August. I'm not sure I can do anything about it to be honest.

EDIT: I'll try to take a look at the rules once more, but I don't promise anything.

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I've managed to work around the issue for the Eredivisie, so maybe I've been a bit quick wash my hands on the issue. However I haven't managed to do so for any division lower than that as shown below. It's not the end of the world since if you look closely at the calendar, you still can schedule friendlies if you so desire: the teams in those leagues will have just played a few friendlies before that as well. We'll see. I probably won't offset the start date in the lower divisions even more since they already start in late August, but I did delay the start of the KNVB Beker a bit. We'll see.

fm_2021-03-02_00-41-01.jpg

fm_2021-03-02_00-41-30.jpg

Edited by Xavier Lukhas
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1 hour ago, Xavier Lukhas said:

I've managed to work around the issue for the Eredivisie, so maybe I've been a bit quick wash my hands on the issue. However I haven't managed to do so for any division lower than that as shown below. It's not the end of the world since if you look closely at the calendar, you still can schedule friendlies if you so desire: the teams in those leagues will have just played a few friendlies before that as well. We'll see. I probably won't offset the start date in the lower divisions even more since they already start in late August, but I did delay the start of the KNVB Beker a bit. We'll see.

fm_2021-03-02_00-41-01.jpg

fm_2021-03-02_00-41-30.jpg

Will you update the file with these changes?

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I've updated the database. I haven't found a way to make clubs below the Eredivisie not play some pre-season friendlies before the start of the first season, but it doesn't change your ability to create a few pre-season friendlies. You can read the rest of the caveats for the first season in the OP. Have fun.

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Le 11/03/2021 à 23:12, ahmedraul7777 a dit :

If I win the Tweede Divise in the first season do I get promoted and become Professional ?

All the details about promotion and relegation are in the opening post with all the links, and in general in FM when you're in a league where most clubs are professional, the board will make the club transition towards professionalism as well... and vice-versa if you get relegated.

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  • Xavier Lukhas changed the title to [FM21.4] Netherlands (D7)
1 hour ago, Xavier Lukhas said:

As suspected, SI did release a 21.4 update which requires a database reverification, so here it is. :)

Is the file missing in the first post or is it just that the file name contains 21.3 in the name by mistake?

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il y a 8 minutes, dmakovica a dit :

Is the file missing in the first post or is it just that the file name contains 21.3 in the name by mistake?

I had uploaded it, but for some reason it wasn't appearing properly in the first post. Normally it should be fine now.

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  • 4 weeks later...
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Le 23/08/2021 à 02:00, angmodurian a dit :

Thank you very much for this database, love it! Hope to hear from you for FM22.

Thanks. From what I've seen, I don't see myself playing FM22. The good news is that anyone can make a database like this. The Districtsbeker requires a bit more careful management, but aside from that, most of the teams already are in the correct division thanks to the awesome work of the Dutch researchers.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi @Xavier Lukhas, could you provide tips on converting this database from FM21 to FM22? Or do you start from scratch? I hope anyone with a bit more advanced editor-knowledge can take over the project. It's by far the best database I've seen since years and I'm sad it will not be continued for FM22, at least not for now. When I'm trying to convert it, I'm getting errors that for example the Hoofdklasse does not have the required amount of teams (minimum maximum of 64, only 63 found, with JVC Cuijk still in the Hoofdklasse).

Edited by wfm18
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Got pretty far with ironing out the issues in the editor file.
The main issues are because some of the divisions changed in size, 
To sum it up:

Hoofdklasse Zondag A           changed from 16 to 15
Eerste klasse Zondag F          changed from 14 to 13
Eerste klasse Zondag             changed from 14 to 13
Tweede klasse Zaterdag A    changed from 14 to 13
Tweede klasse Zondag A       changed from 14 to 13
Tweede klasse Zondag B       changed from 14 to 13
Tweede klasse Zondag C       changed from 14 to 13
Tweede klasse Zondag D       changed from 14 to 13
Tweede klasse Zondag H       changed from 14 to 13
Tweede klasse Zondag K       changed from 14 to 13
Tweede klasse Zondag L       changed from 14 to 13

I did checked the changes to https://www.hollandsevelden.nl/ and it all seems to check out. 
The couple of days I tried to adjust the divisions to their news sizes. But it proved to be quite the job! the division size is 'hardcoded' in many settings per divisions. and I did not manage to tweak the divisions in such a way that the new size is no long throwing any validation issues. Since I do not have enough knowledge in the editor, I stopped with my attempt.
So as a temporary fix I decided to restore the divisions to their old sizes, by re-adding missing teams: 

The changes I made to temporary fix the divisions are as following:

  • Hoofdklasse Zondag A:
    • Division missed 1 additional team from the 16 required. 
    • Fixed by assigning Ido's Football club to this division  (was not assigned to any division in-game)
       
  • Eerste klasse Zondag F
    • Division missed 1 additional team from the 14 required. 
    • Fixed by assinging VV Sneek Wit Zwart to this division (was not assigned to any division in-game)
       
  • Tweede klasse Zaterdag A
    • Division misses 1 additional team from the 14 required. 
    • Issue: in FM 21 VPV Purmersteijn is active In the Hoofdklasse Zondag A division, but has an addition subteam team active in the Tweede klasse Zaterdag A division. In the FM 21 editor this team is called VPV Purmersteijn Zaterdag.
      This additional satuday team is currently missing in FM 22.
       
  • Tweede klasse Zondag A 
    • Division missed 1 additional team from the 14 required. 
    • Fixed by assigning VV Groenenweg to this division (was not assigned to any division in-game)
       
  • Tweede klasse Zondag B
    • Division missed 1 additional team from the 14 required. 
    • Fixed by Fixed by assigning Excelsior '20 to this division (was not assigned to any division in-game)
       
  • Tweede klasse Zondag C
    • Division missed 1 additional team from the 14 required. 
    • Fixed by Fixed by assigning RKVV Teylingen to this division (was not assigned to any division in-game)
       
  • Tweede klasse Zondag D
    • Division misses 1 additional team from the 14 required. 
    • Issue: in FM 21 XerxesDZB is active In the Eerste klasse Zaterdag B division, but has an addition subteam team active in the Tweede klasse Zondag D division. In the FM 21 editor this team is called XerxesDZB Zondag.
      This additional sunday team is currently missing in FM 22.
       
  • Tweede klasse Zondag H
    • Division missed 1 additional team from the 14 required. 
    • Fixed by assinging RKVV haelen to this division (was not assigned to any division in-game)
       
  • Tweede klasse Zondag K
    • Division missed 1 additional team from the 14 required.
    • Fixed by assinging SV Dedemsvaart to this division (was not assigned to any division in-game)
       
  • Tweede klasse Zondag L
    • Division missed 1 additional team from the 14 required.
    • Fixed by assinging VV Heerde to this division (was not assigned to any division in-game)

Tweede klasse Zaterdag A Tweede klasse Zondag D is temporarly fixed by assigning FC Zoetemeer to Tweede Klasse Zaterdag A and assigning VV Maasdijk to Tweede klasse Zondag D. The pretties solution would to re-create the saturday and sunday team, but I do not have the knowledge to make that happen.
I cannot guarantee that the file is 100% clear of any issues. It did pass the validation, and it did pass a test simuiation in the editor up to 01-07-2024.

There are also other issues that need to be fixed. Like the substitution rules are still 3 out of 12. instead 5 out of 12 (max 3 interruptions) + 1) + 1 subsitution in extension

Nederland (D7).fmf

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Thank you  @Tomijssel, I'll test the file this weekend. Is there a way we can setup the competitions to have less teams? Hoofdklasse Zondag A and B will have 15 teams this season, while both Zaterdag A and B will have 16. Assigning teams that are not assigned to any competition (yet) seems acceptable, but not ideal and realistic. I've tried to do this but I'm not able to make the competitions have less teams without errors. Maybe @Xavier Lukhas can help us with sorting out these competitions?

I also know that all teams are assigned to the Districtsbeker. A couple are not yet assigned (go to 'Nederland' in FM22 [not editor], click 'Big clubs'/'Grote clubs' and scroll all the way down), which were added this year to the DB. Like FC Zoetermeer, CTO '70 and SV Robinhood.

Last year I had an issue with FC Twente players, that they played like 300+ matches a season when then played for Jong Twente. Don't know if that was related to this DB or a bug in FM21.

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3 hours ago, wfm18 said:

Assigning teams that are not assigned to any competition (yet) seems acceptable, but not ideal and realistic.

I fully agree with you on that. My initial idea was to resize the competitions to their true size, but it proved to be quite difficult, I kept running into all kinds of errors which I couldn't solve.
Today I undertook a new attempt, an for some reason it worked now! I really don't know what I did wrong the previous days, but I managed to succesfully resize the divisions. 

The following changed were required per division to scale them down to their true size:
The min and max for teams under the Advanced rules for Nederland needs to be adjusted according to their true size:
image.thumb.png.9377da2661f63de389a276f73f3c0d87.png

After that (still per division) the min - max required teams need to be adjusted in the Advanced rules selection under Requirements:
image.thumb.png.41df2534d9416700c20f36aaa93d8dee.png

Then per stage (stage 0 & stage 1) the number of teams needs to be adjusted under General:
image.thumb.png.ff0995bd073cb35c02a2c3529b84187a.png

And finally for stage 1 the Individual group rules (3 in total) needs to be adjusted under Number of Teams :image.thumb.png.5de11585587acf19c814f24d1d2ca4aa.png

The changes above have to be made per disivion that has changed in size:

Hoofdklasse Zondag A
Hoofdklasse Zondag B
Eerste klasse Zondag F
Tweede klasse Zaterdag A
Tweede klasse Zondag A
Tweede klasse Zondag G
Tweede klasse Zondag C
Tweede klasse Zondag D
Tweede klasse Zondag H
Tweede klasse Zondag K
Tweede klasse Zondag L  

Edited by Tomijssel
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3 hours ago, wfm18 said:

I also know that all teams are assigned to the Districtsbeker. A couple are not yet assigned (go to 'Nederland' in FM22 [not editor], click 'Big clubs'/'Grote clubs' and scroll all the way down), which were added this year to the DB. Like FC Zoetermeer, CTO '70 and SV Robinhood.

I also took the effort of cleaning that up.
I assigned the following clubs to the in-game Dutch lower League division and the the mentioned District beker:

  • CTO '70 - Duivendrecht - (Noord-Holland) - District beker West II
  • Excelsior '20 - Schiedam (Zuid-Holland) -  District beker West II (was already assigned)
  • FC Skillz - Den Haag (Zuid-Holland) - District beker West II
  • FC Zoetermeer - Zoetermeer (Zuid-Holland) - District beker West II 
  • Ido's Football Club - Hendrik-Ido-Ambacht (Zuid-Holland) - District beker Zuid I (was already assigned)  
  • JVC Cuijk - Cuijk (Brabant) - Districtbeker Zuid II (was already assigned) - Was assigned to Hoofdklasse Zondag B for some reason
  • KSRV Vredenburch - Rijswijk (Zuid-Holland) - District beker West II
  • RKVV Teylingen - Sassenheim (Zuid-Holland) - District beker West II (was already assigned)  
  • SV de Paasberg - Arnhem (Gelderland) - District beker Oost
  • SV Oostburg - Oostburg (Zeeland) - District beker Zuid I
  • SV Real Sranang - Amsterdam (Noord-Holland) - District beker West I
  • SV Robinhood - Amsterdam (Noord-Holland) - District beker West I
  • VV Groeneweg - Zevenhuizen-Moerkapelle (Zuid-Holland) - District beker West II (was already assigned)  
  • VV Heerde - Heerde (Gelderland) - - District beker Oost (was already assigned)  
  • VV Maasdijk - Maasdijk (Zuid-Holland) - District beker West II

And furthermore I changed the substitution rules to 5 from 12 (max of 3 stoppages) + 1Extra Time sub
The editor file with the aforementioned changes did verify, and a testrun in the editor for 10 years did not hrew any errors. It does not mean that the file is 100% clean of any errors, But so far i did not enounter any errors in-game. 

Nederland (D7).fmf

Edited by Tomijssel
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Il y a 7 heures, wfm18 a dit :

Thank you  @Tomijssel, I'll test the file this weekend. Is there a way we can setup the competitions to have less teams? Hoofdklasse Zondag A and B will have 15 teams this season, while both Zaterdag A and B will have 16. Assigning teams that are not assigned to any competition (yet) seems acceptable, but not ideal and realistic. I've tried to do this but I'm not able to make the competitions have less teams without errors. Maybe @Xavier Lukhas can help us with sorting out these competitions?

I also know that all teams are assigned to the Districtsbeker. A couple are not yet assigned (go to 'Nederland' in FM22 [not editor], click 'Big clubs'/'Grote clubs' and scroll all the way down), which were added this year to the DB. Like FC Zoetermeer, CTO '70 and SV Robinhood.

Last year I had an issue with FC Twente players, that they played like 300+ matches a season when then played for Jong Twente. Don't know if that was related to this DB or a bug in FM21.

To be honest, I would also be adding teams to a division. On FM 2020 I did have some divisions that only had 17 teams (IIRC it was the Derde Divisie), and it did work, however, odd numbered divisions are rare for a good reason (notably uneven match scheduling) and I thought I wouldn't be surprised if the Dutch FA would enforce 18 teams the following season. And it's exactly what happened, and I had to undo that work the following year! :lol: On FM21, you had a division or two that also were missing a team; in each case, I added the most reputable team from the Lower Leagues. Therefore, you can easily understand that the Dutch FA had to make-do with having 13 or 16 teams instead of 14 in the lower divisions, but ideally it wouldn't happen, especially not in the long term. It's how it is in reality, but realistically and ideally, it wouldn't happen IRL if they could help it.

If you feel extra brave, you potentially could have two rulesets for each division: one for the first season with 13 or 15 teams, and another one for the subsequent seasons with 14 teams. It's not very hard to do, especially in the Tweede Klasse since there are no division below that to edit (assuming you're not adding the Derde Klasse). That's how competition format changes are programmed in advance in FM. There's the hard way of promoting one extra team and therefore also editing all the divisions below it so that it works. There's also the easy way and the one that's often used IRL: just relegate one fewer team during the first season. Duplicate your new rules, add a start date and an end date for the ruleset, and do it once for each and every league that has this issue. It's not hard, just tedious; far easier than editing playoffs or splitting teams in the various Districtsbekers. :D Speaking of which and as far as the Districtsbekers are concerned, I would wipe it off each year and split the teams to have a fairly even number of teams in each District; which is why the Districts map is different between FM20 and FM21 and different from real life.

One extra thing I'd mention is that you may want to make the top two divisions a bit longer by the tune of a week. Have the Eerste Divisie start the first Friday of August, and lengthen the Eredivisie by a week. I'm still playing a bit in the Netherlands in FM21: the fixture congestion can be quite bad, especially when the winter break gets a bit longer depending on how the calendar works out for that season. If it ends on a Thursday, it's fine, however if it ends on a Saturday, that's one extra week of winter break and that can cause issues. I'm not quite sure why the fixture congestion is that awful despite having more than ample time for a 18 team league to complete (second week of August to the second week of May), but it can really burn some teams real bad; especially since FM's fixture computer is really not that great (it tends to stack matches early or late into the season, with wide gaps in the middle of it. Since the first couple of Eerste divisie promotion playoff matches only feature Eerste divisie teams and that the relegation playoff doesn't require the Eredivisie stage 0 to be finished in order to be scheduled, you can theoretically lengthen the Eredivisie by a week without modifying anything else. At least it did validate for me and seemingly works after simulating. :p

EDIT: As far as substitution rules go, the COVID ones are in Additional Helpers.

Edited by Xavier Lukhas
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8 hours ago, Tomijssel said:

I also took the effort of cleaning that up.
I assigned the following clubs to the in-game Dutch lower League division and the the mentioned District beker:

  • CTO '70 - Duivendrecht - (Noord-Holland) - District beker West II
  • Excelsior '20 - Schiedam (Zuid-Holland) -  District beker West II (was already assigned)
  • FC Skillz - Den Haag (Zuid-Holland) - District beker West II
  • FC Zoetermeer - Zoetermeer (Zuid-Holland) - District beker West II 
  • Ido's Football Club - Hendrik-Ido-Ambacht (Zuid-Holland) - District beker Zuid I (was already assigned)  
  • JVC Cuijk - Cuijk (Brabant) - Districtbeker Zuid II (was already assigned) - Was assigned to Hoofdklasse Zondag B for some reason
  • KSRV Vredenburch - Rijswijk (Zuid-Holland) - District beker West II
  • RKVV Teylingen - Sassenheim (Zuid-Holland) - District beker West II (was already assigned)  
  • SV de Paasberg - Arnhem (Gelderland) - District beker Oost
  • SV Oostburg - Oostburg (Zeeland) - District beker Zuid I
  • SV Real Sranang - Amsterdam (Noord-Holland) - District beker West I
  • SV Robinhood - Amsterdam (Noord-Holland) - District beker West I
  • VV Groeneweg - Zevenhuizen-Moerkapelle (Zuid-Holland) - District beker West II (was already assigned)  
  • VV Heerde - Heerde (Gelderland) - - District beker Oost (was already assigned)  
  • VV Maasdijk - Maasdijk (Zuid-Holland) - District beker West II

And furthermore I changed the substitution rules to 5 from 12 (max of 3 stoppages) + 1Extra Time sub
The editor file with the aforementioned changes did verify, and a testrun in the editor for 10 years did not hrew any errors. It does not mean that the file is 100% clean of any errors, But so far i did not enounter any errors in-game. 

Nederland (D7).fmf 61.46 kB · 4 downloads

Wow this is great! JVC Cuijk was in the Hoofdklasse last year but they got relegated to the 4th division I believe.

Some other errors I spotted: there are ~40 competitions made for Jong teams and U18 teams. Within those, I sometimes spot like ADO'20 Zaterdag, which doesn't really fit. Renaming those to Jong ADO'20 would be best I think, but I can assume that is a lot of work. Another one is that Eerste Klasse Zondag C and B are in the wrong order (that error is also in the official DB, but you can swap them).

Apart from that, no errors yet. Tomorrow I'll simulate 2-3 seasons to see what is happening. What I liked most about last years file is that teams from the Tweede Klasse also got relegated and new teams got into the league from the lower leagues. Let's see if that happens again :)

Edited by wfm18
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Il y a 8 heures, wfm18 a dit :

[...] Within those, I sometimes spot like ADO'20 Zaterdag, which doesn't really fit. Renaming those to Jong ADO'20 would be best I think, but I can assume that is a lot of work. [...]

More like it doesn't work. :lol: Been there, done that: most of the time the changes aren't reflected in game for one reason or another, even though you can rename senior teams however you want; even if you delete the team and recreate it. You could edit a .lnc file instead if you really care, but now that's long and tedious. That's something you'd need to bring to the attention of the Dutch researchers instead, they've been nice to me so far.

Edited by Xavier Lukhas
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2 hours ago, Xavier Lukhas said:

More like it doesn't work. :lol: Been there, done that: most of the time the changes aren't reflected in game for one reason or another, even though you can rename senior teams however you want; even if you delete the team and recreate it. You could edit a .lnc file instead if you really care, but now that's long and tedious. That's something you'd need to bring to the attention of the Dutch researchers instead, they've been nice to me so far.

Yeah fair point, I think those changes are better in a LNC file, that is also more sustainable for future (official) updates. Thanks for your reply!

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As an aside, I advice y'all to consolidate all discussions about editing the db in the Dutch lower league thread (first link in OP). It's not necessarily only because I'd rather keep it a release thread, but the more important reason is that I'd like to consolidate all the information about editing the dbs in one thread. At least that's what I've done in the past couple of years:I'd post about the edition of the db there, then create a release thread when necessary. So that people can refer to it when they need regardless of the point in time when they need help about it.

Not an obligation, but I'd appreciate it. I also doubt it's going to really happen over the next few years too! :lol:

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Hi guys, it's my first time here. I've played FM for years, but always in the big competitions. IRL I am a player at Sc 't Zand (Tilburg, Brabant) 1e klasse. So it was possible to manage them on FM21 and make our way up to the Eredivise? And you're currently working on a FM22 version?

Thank you in advance.

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Le 18/11/2021 à 09:51, 0T1M3Z a dit :

Hi guys, it's my first time here. I've played FM for years, but always in the big competitions. IRL I am a player at Sc 't Zand (Tilburg, Brabant) 1e klasse. So it was possible to manage them on FM21 and make our way up to the Eredivise? And you're currently working on a FM22 version?

Thank you in advance.

I am not working on a FM22 version, but other people might be. You may want to read the thread to get more informations on what they're doing. :)

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