Criticize/Destroy my Tactics.

[Herolover]

LLM (Vanarama National League South).

Last season I was predicted to finish 16th, the board wanted me to avoid a relegation fight, I finished 6th.
This season the board wants me to avoide a relegation fight, I am predicted to finish 7th.

Comparison Notes

• Above Average in most areas.
• Defenders in defense are above the average in defensive stats, but not Pace or Acceleration and they cannot handle the ball (no "Play out of Defense" for you).
• Midfield is above average in defense and midfield, but cannot tackle and have very low Pace and below average Acceleration.
• Strikers are good except for Long Shots and Pace.
• In fact, my entire team is below average in Pace and Acceleration.
• The team cannot cross.

Primary Tactic

What I want from my primary tactic is a fairly risky overall tactic since I should have more talent of my opposition. I want to be pretty aggressive in defense putting extreme pressure on the opposition players. For offense I want controlled passing, no "hoof ball." I know that crossing is not going to be great so I want to try for through balls.

 

Secondary Tactic

For my secondary tactic I want something for when I face a stronger team. Something more defensive with short passing and that hits the opponent on the counter.

 

 

 

Questions

Should I be worried that the players are playing in similar roles in both tactics? This will be great since they can learn and get better at their roles, but will it allow the AI to better prepare their teams to counter mine?

What kind of difference would it make if I switched the IW to IF?

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Herolover

[bamb00zle]

Your primary tactic will get torn to shreds I'm afraid.

Defensively you're playing a high line in a top heavy formation, with a counter press, plus with the roles you set, there will be huge gaps between the defence and midfield. You also have no one holding position in the middle. You will get buggered by balls over the top and your flanks are massively exposed.

Your basically asking a 6th tier team to hurry, play extremely aggressively but yet you want to frequently waste time!? That one needs to go back to the drawing board I'd say.

Secondary - I understand the formation but I personally wouldn't go cautious in bottom heavy setups unless you want to stink the place out for 90 minutes. You'll be so so deep and having shorter passing AND lower tempo doesn't lend itself to effective counters as you just allow the oppo to get back into position.

This is what I reckon. Having said that now, you'll play the season and win the league by 20 points.

[sporadicsmiles]

Is this something you have used before and want to know how to improve? Or something you want to potentially use and see if people think they can work? This will affect the criticism, because if you have already used them with success then criticisms will need to know what works and what does not already.

The first formation? A low tempo, short passing, top heavy formation? I would absolutely love for anyone to play that against me. I am confident I would rip it apart. It will struggle against any team who can quickly regroup and keep people behind the ball. With a 424 you really are looking to be as direct as possible. Not long ball, but you want to get the attacking transition done quickly and vertically. Since you will have 4 players ready to attack defences that will often be either equal or inferior in numbers. Slow tempo just lets the other team get into position. Then if they can press your midfield I don't see how you want to score. Then you will be vulnerable on the break. To not entirely be critical, at least you have not added roaming roles to the midfield and have super attacking fullbacks, so this is a reasonable way to set up the defensive structure (goes against your title, but you have to praise the good as well as criticise the bad). On the plus side, you will become the neutral's favourite team to watch.

Your second tactic just looks extremely passive. You are inviting pressure but offering no obvious outlet to try and score yourself. In fact with the ball you look like you just want to keep hold of it. Defence by possession is fine, but you also need to score goals. I'd imagine this one would get a little overwhelmed and you would concede goals simply because teams will have a bunch of shots. I think the role setup is fine though. It would again would well as a counter attacking tactic, especially if you right winger is one of those extremely fast for the division players. 

[DarJ]

And You’ll get torn apart with the first tactic on the counter.

Primary Tactic

These are the issues I have with the tactic:

• High line and aggressive pressing: There is nothing wrong playing with a high line if you are confident but selecting “extremely urgent” pressing and “prevent short GK distribution”, what you will see is 2 or 3 players going out of their position to close down leaving gaps. I’d advice you to use a split press; so set the teams pressing to standard and ask your front 4 players to close down more, if you want to be even more aggressive, you can use OI to press the opposition defenders and GK what that does is, when you lose he ball your front players will press to try and win the ball back or delay counter attacks while the rest of the team get into their defensive shape.
• No holding player in midfield: This is something you want to pay attention to because in some games it might not be a problem but if you play against teams that play with 2 strikers or attacking midfielders you’ll be leaving yourself open. I would switch the BWM with the CM and out him on defend and I’d leave the CM on support then I’ll change the left FB  to a WB so he can support the IW.
• Your “in possession” instructions don’t make too much sense with the formation: I don’t think the 424 is suitable for a possession oriented style because you have only 2 midfielders. I would go for mixed passing and maybe mixed tempo.

Secondary Tactic

For the second tactic you mentioned that you want to be defensive and you want to play short and counter attack at the same time and unfortunately those 2 don’t go together.

• Role combination: Your role combination is not that suited to counter attack in my opinion. I would go with a DM on defend instead of the BWM because the BWM doesn’t hold position, he moves around to close down players, I’d also change the IW to IF on attack, the FB on the left to WB on support then I’ll switch the position of the midfield so the BBM is on the left and I’ll change the CM to an AP on support.
• Out of possession instructions: You are defending too passively, having a low defensive line, lower line of engagement and less urgent pressing just invites pressure and you’re not making any effort to win the ball. I will go with a lower line of engagement, standard DL, pressing on standard with “get stuck in”.
• In possession instruction. Like I said earlier, short passing and counter attacking don’t go together so I’ll clear everything and go direct with standard tempo and I’ll change mentality to “balanced” al least

[Herolover]

First I appreciate all the replies.

As an American I know little of football tactics other than what FM has taught me and what I can learn here or in FM articles. I need a "Football Tactics for Dummies" book. So I come here so you guys can point out what I cannot see.

I have not used either tactic before, but have used something similar to the Primary tactic in my first season. I am currently in preseason (of season 2) and have played a couple of games with the Primary Tactic. I have done well, but have been playing mostly inferior teams. I did play a team 2 levels above me. I controlled most of the game and was really happy with it, but they scored on two set pieces (I am not a professional club so who has time for set pieces) and got a late goal to beat me 3-1. Still I was happy with the performance.

Why the Primary Tactic.

• I like possession football,
• I like 2 STC because I feel they become far more of a threat than if I just have one STC and I have 3-4 really good STC.
• I could convert it to a 4-4-2, but am not sure I have enough at the AML position. The player currently in it, is actually a STC (he still does a good job as an IW). I am not sure I would be good with a ML.

I have made two changes to the Primary Tactic.

1. I took of Counter. Just doesn't make sense and opens me up when I do not need to be.
2. I put on Low crosses.
3.  I switched the BWM to a CM(s). With the way I have pressing set up I think I can do without a BWM.

I had never thought of using OI's for the pressing.

• The one problem I have with this is what happens when I am in the attack and one of his midfielders gets the ball?
• What would be the effect if I used OI's and put the the opposition Defenders and Midfielders on press urgent?

As for the Secondary Tactic....when I get the Primary done I will work on the Secondary. As for a Tertiary....who knows. Perhaps a 3 at the back with WB.

 

[Experienced Defender]

Quote

Criticize/Destroy my Tactics.

Wow, I love "destroying" tactics  

I am kidding, of course 

Now, joking aside, here is my two pennies worth (the primary tactic only, as I don't have the time at the moment to analyze both):

- no holding midfielder in a top-heavy system with no DM (obvious defensive weakness)

- the LB's role (FBsu) is too conservative to provide his inside-oriented wing partner (IW) with proper attacking support, especially in an obviously possession-minded tactic (judging by team instructions)

- overly and needlessly aggressive manner of defending even for a top team, let alone a Vanarama side

On top of all that, the 424 as a formation is simply not optimally suited to such a slow and patient possession style, and even more so with your choice of roles and duties.

[Herolover]

Okay. Here is the current Primary Tactic. (With new skin because...why not).

 

I also added "Hold Position" PI to the MCL.

If I have to sub off either Winger their subs will be either IW or IF.

What if I pulled the AML and AMR back to ML and MR?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Herolover

[Experienced Defender]

You may have tweaked the tactic somewhat, but I still don't see any essential difference, sorry. Instead, it looks as though you made these changes on a rather random basis, just for the sake of doing it, but without proper understanding as to why. 

12 minutes ago, Herolover said:

I also added "Hold Position" PI to the MCL

Manually added PIs are less effective than hard-coded ones. 

[FMunderachiever]

6 hours ago, Herolover said:

LLM (Vanarama National League South).

Last season I was predicted to finish 16th, the board wanted me to avoid a relegation fight, I finished 6th.
This season the board wants me to avoide a relegation fight, I am predicted to finish 7th.

Comparison Notes

• Above Average in most areas.
• Defenders in defense are above the average in defensive stats, but not Pace or Acceleration and they cannot handle the ball (no "Play out of Defense" for you).
• Midfield is above average in defense and midfield, but cannot tackle and have very low Pace and below average Acceleration.
• Strikers are good except for Long Shots and Pace.
• In fact, my entire team is below average in Pace and Acceleration.
• The team cannot cross.

Primary Tactic

What I want from my primary tactic is a fairly risky overall tactic since I should have more talent of my opposition. I want to be pretty aggressive in defense putting extreme pressure on the opposition players. For offense I want controlled passing, no "hoof ball." I know that crossing is not going to be great so I want to try for through balls.

 

Secondary Tactic

For my secondary tactic I want something for when I face a stronger team. Something more defensive with short passing and that hits the opponent on the counter.

 

 

 

Questions

Should I be worried that the players are playing in similar roles in both tactics? This will be great since they can learn and get better at their roles, but will it allow the AI to better prepare their teams to counter mine?

What kind of difference would it make if I switched the IW to IF?

 

 

 

 

Why not try a more conventional 442, rather than the 424 you have here.

That fits better with your idea of progressive buildup, but i would remove the counter press for a 442

[Herolover]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 Instead, it looks as though you made these changes on a rather random basis, just for the sake of doing it, but without proper understanding as to why.

Yeah...that's about where I am at sometimes.

[Herolover]

Used the Primary Tactic only. Mostly on Positive, but some Cautious in Game 2 (see below). I have added either "Work the Ball in the Box" for times I am getting way to many Long Shots and "Hit Early" crosses for when the other team sits back and crowds the box.

The Results:

Game #1 Away

Away, I am slight favorites (odds like 2.56 to 2.88).

• Great Game. We way out played the opponents. Shots were like 20-4. Only we couldn't finish.
• 0-0 tie.

Game #2 Home.

Way underdogs (odds were 3.4x to 1.8x) vs team that is Professional (I am Semi) and they were relegated from division above last season.

• They pressed hard and I had little answer.
• They easily had more Pace.
• My GK rushed out twice to fall in front of the their player as he lobbed over for a Goal (GK isn't that bad I swear). He ended up with a 6.1 rating.
• Gave up a penalty kick.
• They scored on a breakaway from my corner (I have 2 at the back plus a midfield to protect against this, but their team ran toward my goal while my team walked).
• Two of their goals came from mistakes by my defending players.
• I started on Positive, then went down, but went back up to Positive as I felt we played better on Positive.
• Lost 4-3.

Game #3 Away (I am underdog 3.2 to 2.1)

• Shots 13(8) to 9(4) in my favor
• XG 1.20 to .96 in my favor
• Possession 58-42 in my favor
• Avg rating 6.93 to 6.8 in my favor
• 0-0 tie.

 

At this point Social Media is praising me and the Board rates me at a B-

 

[Herolover]

2 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

Why not try a more conventional 442, rather than the 424 you have here.

That fits better with your idea of progressive buildup, but i would remove the counter press for a 442

I wonder the same thing.

Is there that must difference between a ML/MR and a AML and AMR? I do not know.

[bamb00zle]

12 hours ago, Herolover said:

Why the Primary Tactic.

• I like possession football,
• I like 2 STC because I feel they become far more of a threat than if I just have one STC and I have 3-4 really good STC.
• I could convert it to a 4-4-2, but am not sure I have enough at the AML position. The player currently in it, is actually a STC (he still does a good job as an IW). I am not sure I would be good with a ML.

.

 

I generally find that 2 conventional forwards doesn't lend itself to posesssion based approaches as invariably at least one of them won't be involved in the build up that much. Personally 3 or even 4 man central midfielders do the trick much more. 4411 is a better setup than 442 for posession based systems, I've had a lot of success using a wide playmaker with an overlapping full back. A striker that drops off and an AM or SS making runs into the area. Defensively it is also much stronger than a 442, at least in my experience.

With the 433 DM you made, I'd agree largely with other posters comments - that is one of the strongest counter attacking formations but yep you definitely need a defensive screen in front of the back 4. Half back is a good option, as out of possession he makes a 5 man defence and allows the wing backs to push up.

I don't necessarily agree that you need to use 'direct' passing though to achieve counters. I play with this setup myself in my save and keep it at standard but then my club are the 3rd strongest team in the Ukrainian Premier League which is obviously a higher level than your current team so you can trust them more to make better decisions whether to go shorter at times or more direct when needed. They decide. Pass into space is a nice option to use. Higher tempo is good here too.

To make that set up work, one of your midfield 3 needs to be a runner into the box to get on the end of balls or the formation has a risk of isolation in attack. You also have to think about how to cover the AML or AMR as they are in advanced positions. I also avoid playmakers in this setup and target men as they tend to be ball magnets and when you want to counter, you want your lads to sniff out opportunities based on what's in front of them rather than trying to find certain players all the time.

Pace is a key component in this system, particularly on the flanks and the lone striker too so he can race on to balls over the top.

Be prepared to give up a fair amount of posssession in this system in favour of defensive solidity but if you're creating chances then you're doing it right. I prefer to go with a low block (sometimes split) as what I see is my team resetting into a 5 man defensive screen and it soaks up so much pressure. Teams give the ball back to us, we operate at a higher tempo and bang there's your counter.

Edited January 10, 2021 by bamb00zle

[Herolover]

Just a quick update

Game #4 had me as away as an underdog 0-0 tie

Game #5

I was at home and a slight favorite.

I realized that I was wanting through balls so I put on "Underlap."

I played some with a 4-4-2 but then went back to 4-2-4. I cannot really say one was more effective than the other.

Won 3-1 and their goal came in the 93+ minute.

 

[CARRERA]

11 hours ago, Herolover said:

Just a quick update

Game #4 had me as away as an underdog 0-0 tie

Game #5

I was at home and a slight favorite.

I realized that I was wanting through balls so I put on "Underlap."

I played some with a 4-4-2 but then went back to 4-2-4. I cannot really say one was more effective than the other.

Won 3-1 and their goal came in the 93+ minute.

 

You seem to have problems with scoring goals. Remove lower tempo, remove narrow width and add counter in transition. if it’s still not enough add higher tempo and or run at Defence 

If you concede too much start removing or lowering out of possession instructions to your liking and until your defense looks fine. Start with prevent GK distribution and pressing intensity.

always make sure to achieve tactical familiarity before you go for the next steps.

formation should be fine as both CM will cover both offensive and defense in a fluid manner. just don’t use any B2B or mezzala, they will look too much for penetrating space up the pitch

 

[axehan1]

On 10/01/2021 at 03:38, Herolover said:

I wonder the same thing.

Is there that must difference between a ML/MR and a AML and AMR? I do not know.

What you see on the tactic screen is your defensive positioning. If you drop to 442 with wingers on attack you'll still get the shape you're looking for plus a bit of defensive stability.