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So frustrated, how to understand game mechanism?


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I can't. I just can't. Some of you remember me I was posting it before about tactics, it was huge struggle.
 
You can see here.
 
 
 
I did a little pause, I started again, but I just can't figure it out. It is pandemic, there are no gym's, no caffe bars, I just want to play a simple game to relax, why is it so hard?
 
Now I want to play 442, I lose every match with this. But I was playing 442 diamond, it was similiar. I tried 100001 combinations, without any sucess. Before I was trying 433 or 4231 it was always without success. Really, no success with 1000 (exagarating but you get the point) different set ups?
 
And all the time I see guys having huge sucess with minor teams, with some "stupid" formations...
 
What to do? In which direction to think? I want to figure out game mechanism, that is main goal. I was watching Zealand videos, BusttheZone videos, I am exploring on internet but always without resultls. I am so frustrated, is it meant to be so hard?
 
I only want to think about mine tactic and to - play without losing every game.
 
I read many tutorials, but for me they are philosophy about football paradigms, and I need to know TE rules, like which combinations work, which set ups works. It is so many combination, I just cant hit the wrong button.
 
I understand there is some in game logic, but does it need to be that every of my combination is wrong?

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Edited by flauta kicma
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So this is so bad, awful tactic that I needed to lost 6:2?

 

Every time I change something I lose by big margin.

 

But why everytime, does that mean that every time I choose something bad? Why is this so difficult game? I choose width, tempo, choose some roles and... pufff.... you cant do anything.

 

I just want to know direction. Just want to understand TE mechanism. Nobody wants to explain that. In so many tutorials, publication, everyone philosofiles about meaning of width, tempo, etc. but nobody says it directly what to combine and how to establish somehting.

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6 hours ago, flauta kicma said:

I just want to know direction. Just want to understand TE mechanism. Nobody wants to explain that. In so many tutorials, publication, everyone philosofiles about meaning of width, tempo, etc. but nobody says it directly what to combine and how to establish somehting.

 

To be fair there are so many possible combinations that nobody could go through them all, and there is also more than one way to achieve something. So there is not one correct way to do one thing. You mostly use common sense. 

So you lost 6-2 away to a good side, lets focus on the 6 rather than the 2 (i.e. we need to fix that defence). 

The first thing to note is you are being so aggressive against a team who are equal (or slightly worse) than you away in the UCL. That is very brave. What do I mean by aggressive? You have a positive mentality - this means players take more risks and look to get more involved in attacking play. You have a high LOE and DL. You are using a counter press. You have a very aggressive set of roles and duties. 

As always, I start these things by asking what type of football do you want to play? What do you want each player to do? What type of goals are you trying to score? These questions will guide you in making other choices. 

So lets talk about the player roles. As the post above mine points out, you are throwing a lot of players forward when attacking. You have no real defensive screen (a player who supports the defence while you attack), and your fullbacks are both advanced. In a 442 this can be dangerous, because you lack the numbers in midfield to easily compensate. And historically the wide players in a 442 were there to supply the width rather than the fullbacks. Then the fullbacks can occupy a deeper role to support the midfield. This is, of course, not the only way to play, but you have to be aware of it when you set up. You actually compound this by having an AP on the same side as the WB(A). An AP is not going to be deep enough to provide defensive cover, and so the hole left by the FB as he rushes forward is unprotected and it will severely stress your CBs to deal with this. Here something as simple as switching the midfielders could help, since the CM(S) will be better placed to cover the left back slot.

Another issue here is the use of the counterpress. If your WB(A) gets caught up in the counter press (which is likely, he will be very advanced) it will take him even longer to get back into position. Which means that opposition players also have more time to exploit the space. You also use more urgent pressing, which applies to everyone in the team. This will potentially create holes if the pressing does not work. For something like this 442 I would use a split block where you use PIs on the players you want to close down and press, and then remove the pressing TI.

I have another worry about a certain combination of TIs. You have play out of defence, shorter passing and higher tempo (I assume you want to play a quick passing game based on this?). This is okay in itself, but coupled with counter, it does not make sense. Can you see this is entirely counter intuitive? You cant both play out of defence and counter attack. In fact I usually find if I want to play counter, I definitely do not want to play out of defence. This is not likely to cause you to concede goals, but it is an example of conflicting instructions, and why (which you wanted). This is a case where you first need to define the style of football, and then pick the TIs that will help achieve it. 

In the particular match you have posted, I think you have been far too aggressive. If I were playing this game, using your tactic as a base, I would:

- change from positive to standard (to reduce risk and slow things down).
- Have one FB with a defend duty (to make a "back three" when I attack).
- Reduce the LOE and DL to standard (to make myself more compact and leave less space)
- remove the counter press and press more instructions (Shakhtar are good enough to play through my press)
- Get rid of shorter passing and play out of defence (I do not expect to win a possession battle with this team, and it is my own personal preference not to try)
- Probably use a DLP rather than a AP in midfield, although I would need to actually be familiar with how this works to make that choice. 

Then I would probably make other changes based on what I was seeing in the match. For example if they are pushing too many players forward and leaving my strikers 2v2 when we are going to get the ball to them as quickly as possible to exploit that. You always have to be on the look out.

And finally, do not let it stress you. 

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It's also worth noting that if you're constantly making large tactical changes to try and find a system that works, then you're actively harming yourself because players need time to adapt to systems and they won't get that familiarity. 

What formation did Shaktar play?

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I don't think the problem is tactical (there are only minor issues with your set up, but nothing that should make you underachiev really)

Where I think you are going wrong is player selection, different types of styles/formations requires different types of players, if these two don't match, then you will probably end up losing a lot of matches horribly 

 

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14 hours ago, flauta kicma said:

It is pandemic, there are no gym's, no caffe bars, I just want to play a simple game to relax, why is it so hard?

No one is forcing you to play FM. Why do you want to play any video game - or do anything else - that frustrates you? There are a number of games that are simpler and much easier than FM, so it's ultimately a matter of your own preference. Play games you enjoy and do not play those you don't. Quite simple :)

I personally adore FM, precisely because it's not simple and requires a certain degree of football and tactical knowledge and understanding. In fact, FM is the only video game that has ever attracted my attention. But we are all different and therefore enjoying different things, including video games. In order to master FM, especially its tactical aspect, you definitely need a lot of patience, willingness and determination to learn. If you don't have these, you'll be frustrated. Of course, there is an alternative - you can always download some plug'n'play tactic from a well-known tactical creator and then focus on other aspects of FM (transfer dealings, player development and so on). 

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One thing that you might find helpful is to start with a blank canvas. Choose the tactic you want but literally have no TI. Play the game, watch it on comprehensive and make notes of what you see. After the game look at where the assists were created, who created them. Is it the same players creating. Same with goals against you and also when do you concede? Is it near the end of the game and good it be fatigue. It is truly endless of why it isn’t working and the different combinations of roles and instructions. 
 

Once you have done that reload the game to the point before the match. This is purely for learning what roles and instructions effect the game. How does the tactic fare if you change 1 thing? Change the mentality and see how it affects, change the tempo and see how it affects it. 
 

I don’t condone cheating but I don’t consider this cheating because you are trying to learn what each feature does and how it effects the gameplay. Think of it like a training level of a game. It’s just playing the same match over and over.

Of course once you feel at a level of being more comfortable with tactics then create a save you want to do.

Another way would analyse each game you have played in your current save and see where you are conceding. Are you seeing patterns? Where are the goals coming from. Then try and overcome it and work out how to stop it. Once you have a a tight defence look at how to build upon it. What’s the worst that can happen? You get sacked and you start again but when you do start again you have more experience and more knowledge of what does and doesn’t work.

As you understand the game and the match engine the more you will find the posts on here and the you tube videos make more sense.

Also it’s like any computer game, hard to play at first but practice with it by playing it. The more you play the better you become.

Honestly, if it was an easy game to master the longevity of the game would be poor. You would win everything and get bored. 

Lastly, set your expectations of the team you are playing. No one is going to win every match and win the league in your first season. You will have bad spells. Even the greatest managers do but it’s about learning from them. I quite often read posts where people think 1 super tactic is possible and you will win every game 6-0. It will never be like that and thank god it isn’t.

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7 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

No one is forcing you to play FM. Why do you want to play any video game - or do anything else - that frustrates you? There are a number of games that are simpler and much easier than FM, so it's ultimately a matter of your own preference. Play games you enjoy and do not play those you don't. Quite simple :)

I personally adore FM, precisely because it's not simple and requires a certain degree of football and tactical knowledge and understanding. In fact, FM is the only video game that has ever attracted my attention. But we are all different and therefore enjoying different things, including video games. In order to master FM, especially its tactical aspect, you definitely need a lot of patience, willingness and determination to learn. If you don't have these, you'll be frustrated. Of course, there is an alternative - you can always download some plug'n'play tactic from a well-known tactical creator and then focus on other aspects of FM (transfer dealings, player development and so on). 

I've played this game at least for 10 years. And never faced something like this years Match Engine. We must accept that this ME acting weird, i'm not an tactics expert but also I'm not that ignorant, I always find the successfull tactic at some point but this year, NO, I cannot find it. I tried every different ways, watched almost 20 games with full time selected. The main problem is player roles are not working i think, some of them does work but some of them especially Raumdauter or any other Attacking roles, not working. And also weirdly Beta had better ME this year, after patches it just got worse. The owner of this thread absolutely right, this game ise got weird this year. And saying just play different game is not a godd way to communicate with someone, i think.

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5 minutes ago, trgtoztrk said:

saying just play different game is not a godd way to communicate with someone, i think

Why? I really don't see why anyone would force himself/herself to do anything that makes them feel bad and frustrated. Which I already explained in my previous comment btw. 

 

7 minutes ago, trgtoztrk said:

I've played this game at least for 10 years. And never faced something like this years Match Engine. We must accept that this ME acting weird, i'm not an tactics expert but also I'm not that ignorant, I always find the successfull tactic at some point but this year, NO, I cannot find it. I tried every different ways, watched almost 20 games with full time selected. The main problem is player roles are not working i think, some of them does work but some of them especially Raumdauter or any other Attacking roles, not working. And also weirdly Beta had better ME this year, after patches it just got worse. The owner of this thread absolutely right, this game ise got weird this year

We've been seeing this same kind of complaints in every single iteration of FM. But we obviously have different experiences with the game, including the ME. I for example have never had any problem with any ME of any version of FM. I guess that's simply because I always make sure that each of my tactics is:

- well-balanced and logically designed

- suited to the strengths and weaknesses of my players

And I have never needed to even slightly change/modify my tactical approach when moving from an older to a newer version of the game. 

But I can understand you. It's simply in the nature of many people to believe that the problem is always elsewhere and never in themselves :onmehead: 

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1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

Why? I really don't see why anyone would force himself/herself to do anything that makes them feel bad and frustrated. Which I already explained in my previous comment btw. 

 

We've been seeing this same kind of complaints in every single iteration of FM. But we obviously have different experiences with the game, including the ME. I for example have never had any problem with any ME of any version of FM. I guess that's simply because I always make sure that each of my tactics is:

- well-balanced and logically designed

- suited to the strengths and weaknesses of my players

And I have never needed to even slightly change/modify my tactical approach when moving from an older to a newer version of the game. 

But I can understand you. It's simply in the nature of many people to believe that the problem is always elsewhere and never in themselves :onmehead: 

1- I thought that ur mission on this forum is helping people right? Am I wrong? Not saying come on buddy our game is very great, u are the only wrong one and thats because u should just have to play different game, because u are so dumb to have a successfull approach in this game's ME.

2- Im not saying that I %100 percent great tactics master but the game is broken, however; this year ME acts different, there are several threads complaining about this year. I added an example for this situations from well known website's tactics creator.

3- There is simple ways to achieve success in this ME, it is possible but it is not easy and it is very complicated. Even if u find a great tactic and then u'll be FMed at somewhere and start to struggle without any issue on ur tactic or team. I think -including me- people complaining about this. 

4- Thus, if u say this game is perfectly balanced, greatest and no-mistake of all time, then I'm sorry for complaining about ur greatness.

 

 

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No one is saying the match engine is perfect. It never is. But it isn't "broken" either. Personally with the changes they made this year, it's probably my favourite but I digress.

I don't think it is unfair to suggest that, if you aren't finding success, the issue lay with your tactics (or other aspects of management) rather than the match engine being 'broken'. Because the reality is that's what it is likely to be.

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1 hour ago, trgtoztrk said:

I thought that ur mission on this forum is helping people right?

Yes. it is. And that's exactly what I am doing. Including in this particular case/thread. 

 

1 hour ago, trgtoztrk said:

Im not saying that I %100 percent great tactics master but the game is broken, however; this year ME acts different, there are several threads complaining about this year

Good. Play some that is not broken and enjoy yourself ;) 

 

1 hour ago, trgtoztrk said:

There is simple ways to achieve success in this ME, it is possible but it is not easy and it is very complicated

How can it be both "simple" and "very complicated" at the same time? :idiot: 

 

1 hour ago, trgtoztrk said:

Even if u find a great tactic and then u'll be FMed at somewhere and start to struggle without any issue on ur tactic or team. I think -including me- people complaining about this

How exactly do you judge if a tactic is "great"? 

 

1 hour ago, trgtoztrk said:

if u say this game is perfectly balanced, greatest and no-mistake of all time

I have never said any of these, so please do not impute to me things I have never said.

What I said was that I adore FM, that I have never had any issues with any ME and that FM is the only video game that has ever attracted my attention. 

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16 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

To be fair there are so many possible combinations that nobody could go through them all, and there is also more than one way to achieve something. So there is not one correct way to do one thing. You mostly use common sense. 

So you lost 6-2 away to a good side, lets focus on the 6 rather than the 2 (i.e. we need to fix that defence). 

The first thing to note is you are being so aggressive against a team who are equal (or slightly worse) than you away in the UCL. That is very brave. What do I mean by aggressive? You have a positive mentality - this means players take more risks and look to get more involved in attacking play. You have a high LOE and DL. You are using a counter press. You have a very aggressive set of roles and duties. 

As always, I start these things by asking what type of football do you want to play? What do you want each player to do? What type of goals are you trying to score? These questions will guide you in making other choices. 

So lets talk about the player roles. As the post above mine points out, you are throwing a lot of players forward when attacking. You have no real defensive screen (a player who supports the defence while you attack), and your fullbacks are both advanced. In a 442 this can be dangerous, because you lack the numbers in midfield to easily compensate. And historically the wide players in a 442 were there to supply the width rather than the fullbacks. Then the fullbacks can occupy a deeper role to support the midfield. This is, of course, not the only way to play, but you have to be aware of it when you set up. You actually compound this by having an AP on the same side as the WB(A). An AP is not going to be deep enough to provide defensive cover, and so the hole left by the FB as he rushes forward is unprotected and it will severely stress your CBs to deal with this. Here something as simple as switching the midfielders could help, since the CM(S) will be better placed to cover the left back slot.

Another issue here is the use of the counterpress. If your WB(A) gets caught up in the counter press (which is likely, he will be very advanced) it will take him even longer to get back into position. Which means that opposition players also have more time to exploit the space. You also use more urgent pressing, which applies to everyone in the team. This will potentially create holes if the pressing does not work. For something like this 442 I would use a split block where you use PIs on the players you want to close down and press, and then remove the pressing TI.

I have another worry about a certain combination of TIs. You have play out of defence, shorter passing and higher tempo (I assume you want to play a quick passing game based on this?). This is okay in itself, but coupled with counter, it does not make sense. Can you see this is entirely counter intuitive? You cant both play out of defence and counter attack. In fact I usually find if I want to play counter, I definitely do not want to play out of defence. This is not likely to cause you to concede goals, but it is an example of conflicting instructions, and why (which you wanted). This is a case where you first need to define the style of football, and then pick the TIs that will help achieve it. 

In the particular match you have posted, I think you have been far too aggressive. If I were playing this game, using your tactic as a base, I would:

- change from positive to standard (to reduce risk and slow things down).
- Have one FB with a defend duty (to make a "back three" when I attack).
- Reduce the LOE and DL to standard (to make myself more compact and leave less space)
- remove the counter press and press more instructions (Shakhtar are good enough to play through my press)
- Get rid of shorter passing and play out of defence (I do not expect to win a possession battle with this team, and it is my own personal preference not to try)
- Probably use a DLP rather than a AP in midfield, although I would need to actually be familiar with how this works to make that choice. 

Then I would probably make other changes based on what I was seeing in the match. For example if they are pushing too many players forward and leaving my strikers 2v2 when we are going to get the ball to them as quickly as possible to exploit that. You always have to be on the look out.

And finally, do not let it stress you. 

Thank you for your great post, it is so obvious you care...

 

I listened to some of your advices and beat Atletico away, but in next game I lost home to Betis (had all the same like against Atletico only tweaked positive mentallity). And then lost to Eibar, (was losing 4:0) ://

I see what you wanted to say to me, but it is still the same issue, but I still dont get it how to play for example quick passing game, or defensive game against bigger sides, or possesion game, or through the middle to feed strikers, or with one striker (433, 4231).... I still dont know anything, dont know direction to go... Was it purpose to be this hard? I mean, I am person of maybe average IQ, I love this game (playing it from CM 00/01), exploring tactics from end of november and I STILL didnt figure it out. 

Averagely intelligent person who loves the game and have experience should have master it in two months time. Ii is hard to motivate yourself to play it when every game is some different problems

In FM 2020 I knew that it is ideal to play higher tempo, etc., here I dont know how to set up, for me this is all 100000 combinations and I dont know how to adapt. But, once again, you helped me a lot with your advices

 

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@trgtoztrk

thank you for understanding me. I am sorry Experienced defender really think I should play another game

 

Also, thanks to @Pipster, @Chris2509, @NotSoSpecialOne - for helping me.

 

unfortunately, problem is the same, I am feeling like a child when he closes ayes and hopes for the best when I am tweaking. I truly believe the game itself should've done it better. They had it all, they succeed to ruin it. When I master game I will say that again. CM 01/02 you could manage in three days, but it was never to easy or boring. And you knew what you were doing... 

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21 minutes ago, flauta kicma said:

Thank you for your great post, it is so obvious you care...

 

I listened to some of your advices and beat Atletico away, but in next game I lost home to Betis (had all the same like against Atletico only tweaked positive mentallity). And then lost to Eibar, (was losing 4:0) ://

I see what you wanted to say to me, but it is still the same issue, but I still dont get it how to play for example quick passing game, or defensive game against bigger sides, or possesion game, or through the middle to feed strikers, or with one striker (433, 4231).... I still dont know anything, dont know direction to go... Was it purpose to be this hard? I mean, I am person of maybe average IQ, I love this game (playing it from CM 00/01), exploring tactics from end of november and I STILL didnt figure it out. 

Averagely intelligent person who loves the game and have experience should have master it in two months time. Ii is hard to motivate yourself to play it when every game is some different problems

In FM 2020 I knew that it is ideal to play higher tempo, etc., here I dont know how to set up, for me this is all 100000 combinations and I dont know how to adapt. But, once again, you helped me a lot with your advices

 

Snimka zaslona 2021-01-09 004636.png

Snimka zaslona 2021-01-09 004700.png

 

Two games is too little to judge, and you had a good result in one of them, but keep this in mind - 

both Rakitic and Oliver are very poor defensively. Check out their marking, tackling, positioning, bravery, aggression - they're all around 8-12. 

You let the wingers bomb forward and allow Rakitic to roam from position. So in most cases, you'll have one, maybe two players covering the central area when you lose the ball - and both of them aren't good at it.

You also ask the team to press more - which will pull them even more out of position. 

 

I'm not saying it can't work - but you should expect to be very leaky in defence. And Eibar took an advantage of it on that day.

 

 

Edited by Chris2509
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Ok. One more match...

It is happening all the time, without concistensy, without anything.

And it is through saves with Arsenal, Roma and now Sevilla. So is it possible that in every of this saves I had it wrong? 

 

It seems I need to take plug and play and worry about transfers, but in that way I lose interest after two season :/

 

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Posted (edited)

And I played against mighty Levante.

Okay I changed DLP to D and two strikers striker on PFA, but is that single reason to lose again?

 

I am going to sleep, I believe I will quit on Sevilla... Maybe try one more time, everything else is only leading to stress. Why is hard to choose tactic, to know that wide is better than narrow, to know some "common rules" that affect better mechanism and enjoy...

 

ddd.png.5e2fc76c46127fa4107fa1501e43e27b.png 

 

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Edited by flauta kicma
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In my opinion your Midfield balance is all wrong.

 

Swap out 1 of your cm's for a more defensive player with a defensive role and try that.

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1 minute ago, Chris2509 said:

I'm not sure why are you expecting very different results when your tactic is still about the same. It hasn't even changed much from the first pic in this thread.
 

WHen I set up it differently it is onyl the worst. And with Arsenal, Roma or Seviila I tried many tactics, altough I was always trying to put it logical, I mean without some extremes... 

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6 minutes ago, flauta kicma said:

WHen I set up it differently it is onyl the worst. And with Arsenal, Roma or Seviila I tried many tactics, altough I was always trying to put it logical, I mean without some extremes... 

I honestly don't think you've put much thought into fixing what has been suggested here - which is why you can't expect very different results in my opinion. 

Even if you like attacking with many players, think about where they end up on the pitch with the roles and duties they're given - then think what happens when you lose the ball, and who's supposed to cover for them.

In all of the tactics here so far, there's not enough covering players (for my taste), and some of them aren't suited to the task either.

Edited by Chris2509
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The problem is that you keep changing tactics on a random basis, expecting that you'll somehow eventually find the "right combination" by chance. But things do not work that way. 

Roles and duties are key. You need to set them up in such a way that they optimally interact with one another so as to form a coherent tactical system. Instructions are of secondary importance compared to roles and duties. So you can start with a tactic with no instructions and with Balanced team mentality, focusing solely on how to set up roles and duties in a logical and balanced way.

Here is an example of a simple 442 setup that can work fine without a single instruction:

 

AF   PFsu

IWsu   DLPsu  CMde   WMat

WBsu   CDde  CDde   WBsu

SKde

Two holding CMs - one of which is a playmaker as well - allow for attack-minded fullback roles (WBsu), so that the whole attacking play is based around the double midfield pivot, which also helps to recycle possession when needed along with providing defensive cover for the attack-minded fullbacks. The AF pushes forward creating space for the IW to come inside, who in turn creates space for his WB to naturally overlap and thus provide attacking width in a smooth fashion. The PF as the deeper striker interacts with the holding CM helping the midfield in the build-up phase while at the same time allowing the attacking WM to "overlap" him while being supported by his fullback on the flank. The reason I opted for WM instead of winger is twofold: WM is both more flexible and more defensively responsible as a role. It's one of my favorite but unfortunately also most underrated roles by FM players.

Btw, DLF on support would be a better choice than PF, but I guess your player is not good enough to play as a DLF(?)

Your latest setup of roles and duties is not too bad (except for the ultra-conservative FB on defend duty), but instructions are questionable:

- prevent short GK distribution in a system with only 2 players up front is likely to be ineffective + can leave you needlessly exposed defensively due to the midfielders who step out of position to help the forwards to execute the instruction

- more urgent pressing can further worsen this, mostly because you have lower-than-optimal defensive compactness (the distance between DL and LOE), especially for a formation with no DM (plus, you already play under a high team mentality, which automatically makes the players to press with proportionally more urgency)

- you use play out of defence, distribution to CBs and short kicks (distribution) all at once, which is a sort of overkill (if you use the play out of defence, there is no need to use the other 2 instructions)

- higher tempo, pass into space and wide attacking width are used without any clear context (do not use instructions just for the sake of using them)

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@flauta kicmayou can't expect to do well in La Liga with a 2 man midfield consisting of Rakitik and Oliver. Tactics are important ye but the players are even more!

I'm managing a team expected to be relegated and I'm 2nd atm. My tactic has no team instructions and we have just 2 attack duties.

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6 hours ago, flauta kicma said:

Thank you for your great post, it is so obvious you care...

 

I was once in a situation like you, and people here helped me, so I am just paying it forwards. 

6 hours ago, flauta kicma said:

I see what you wanted to say to me, but it is still the same issue, but I still dont get it how to play for example quick passing game, or defensive game against bigger sides, or possesion game, or through the middle to feed strikers, or with one striker (433, 4231).... I still dont know anything, dont know direction to go... Was it purpose to be this hard? I mean, I am person of maybe average IQ, I love this game (playing it from CM 00/01), exploring tactics from end of november and I STILL didnt figure it out. 

 

If it makes it any easier I can probably not set up half of the different ways to play football right away. I can make some logical guesses, but I suspect I would get it wrong most times. It is a progression, and even then you will have to accept sometimes you get is spectacularly wrong. I just got humped by Brighton as Arsenal because my D line was too high , and I never noticed it would be a problem until I was 2-0 down. I lost 4-1, because I had to go chasing. This happens to everyone, even though you can get the impression that people here know nothing but success. 

My advice would be to find a style of football you enjoy. Does not really matter what. Then make sure you understand how it works, and why certain things are done within it. And then just stick to this style as your base for everything .This is essentially how I play the game. I rarely change my base tactical ideals and try to play completely different styles. You will then start to get a feel for what everything does. 

I think you are going in the right direction though. That is a nice result against Atletico. I would advise against changing things too much and too often though, because then it does become difficult to understand what your changes are doing. Stick with a setup and watch your match carefully. See what the players are doing. If one particular player is not doing what you want, try to change something about his role, duty, PI or TI to change that. Then watch to see what has changed. Do this over several matches, and change things very slowly. This way you get a gut feeling for how things are working, and you will start to understand why they are working. I typically used to make a throw away save some team to do this, where I did not care about success but about learning. Knowing you are going to throw a save away once you have extracted all the info you can from it makes losing a little bit better. 

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In the game you lost 6-2 how did you lose that game? How were all 6 goals scored? Literally write down goal 1 and give it a description of how it was scored and which players on your tea, were nearby. This includes if they score with a header, left foot volley etc etc Repeat this for all 6 goals.

Then I would write down what I think my players could of done in each of those situations. Are you noticing any patterns? Are assists coming in from crosses,  corners, free kicks or are the goals being created through the middle of the pitch whereas someone above has mentioned you might need 2 holding midfielders. Are the goals being scored by balls over the top of a high line and the oppositions strikers have better acceleration and pace than your defenders and they are being beaten by the over the top balls. When do the goals come against you? Are they all scored late in a game? This could indicate that because you’re playing a high pressing intense game and the players don’t have great stamina or natural fitness that by the 60th minute of the game your players are so tired and not performing to the best of their ability.

 

Honestly, the reasons why it isn’t working are endless but the answers are in the game. It’s just spending some looking for it and deciding on how to put it right.

 

A couple of other things. Have you checked your team report? Then compared your team against others in the league? Done a comparison on your defence v the leagues defence and where you are placed against other teams? Same with Midfielders and Strikers? Compared your defenders v the average for the leagues strikers. Look for where you are weak and where you are strong. Look to see what your team could be good at and try and use it.

 

Lastly, list everything about your current tactic and why you chose to have that instruction, role, mentality etc  What was the thought process behind arch and every decision? I always find writing this all down and then looking at how can I replicate it in my tactic and look at your past games and see if it worked in previous games. It may make sense to you but in the game and all the varying aspects of the game is that it just didn’t work. Maybe the oppositions manager i.e. The AI is preventing what you are doing by a certain instruction of its own players or team to stop that exact thing you are trying to do!

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Posted (edited)

Thank you all for your advices once again. Yes, as you all noticed, I dont know what am I doing :)) But that is main problem, that I am not searching for some special tactic, I only want to figure out the way it is going... to learn logic of the game.

I have some questions..

- higher tempo is generaly better than slower one?

- games likes more two striker tactics?

Ok, I quitted on Sevilla, started with Sporting Lisboa. They are good enough that I can play relaxed, and again without pressure for being better than third place.

Want to play faster and wider 442 game, like Ferguson treble from 1999. Quick wingers, two holding midfielders... 

This is my formation.

Snimka zaslona 2021-01-09 095342.png

Edited by flauta kicma
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20 minutes ago, flauta kicma said:

Thank you all for your advices once again. Yes, as you all noticed, I dont know what am I doing :)) But that is main problem, that I am not searching for some special tactic, I only want to figure out the way it is going... to learn logic of the game.

I have some questions..

- higher tempo is generaly better than slower one?

- games likes more two striker tactics?

Ok, I quitted on Sevilla, started with Sporting Lisboa. They are good enough that I can play relaxed, and again without pressure for being better than third place.

Want to play faster and wider 442 game, like Ferguson treble from 1999. Quick wingers, two holding midfielders... 

This is my formation.

Snimka zaslona 2021-01-09 095342.png

Why do you think higher tempo is better? There is no set rule and it depends on the players. If you have players that have great passing but not decisions they might need a bit more time on the ball. 
 

if you have fast paced players with great first touch and you want to get the ball forward fast then a higher tempo might be better.

 

You seem to go to Positve for you mentality? Playing balanced or cautious isn’t a bad thing it all depends on the team you have and are playing?

 

your tactic above you have a high tempo with counter press but your line of engagement is standard? If you plan to counter press it would be better to have a higher line of engagement. However have the defenders got good enough attributes for balls over the top and can they cope with a fast paced striker.

Does your team have good stamina? You’re asking them to do a lot for 90 minutes. Have you compared your team to the leagues average?

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18 minutes ago, flauta kicma said:

So what you would suggest?
 

I am just going into friendlies so I will see how it would be..

Honestly? Answer the questions I put above. Sorry if that seems blunt

You will only be able to get help if we can get the information that we have asked for. I’m more than happy to help anyone but please understand that there is no magic wand, no set tactic that will win you every game. It’s not like that in the real world and the game is trying to replicate the real world. You need to play to your strengths until you can then make changes to the team how you want to by buying the right players for how you want to play.
 

My tactic for my lower league team will be completely different from a tactic for another club. That is because my tactic plays to the strengths of my team. However, that doesn’t mean I win every game and win the league. It’s a gradual transition and after 20 games I’m sat outside the playoffs but I know I need to get better more consistent players in but when you don’t have any money to spend and the wage budget is over the budget then you have to work with what you have and adapt. I know in my game that my aim is to reach the playoffs this year and then build on the team ready for a promotion push next season. That way I’ll be in a better position to stay up in the league above. If we go up this season we will come straight back down.That is be setting my goals of whatI want to achieve and it’s realistic.

 

What I’m getting at is you need to set aims and targets for your team and what you want to do. It has to be realistic.

 

Trying to be as honest as I can here but I think you need to look further into what the instructions do and get to grips with how the game works. I would honestly go up to the top of this forum and read each and every sticky. You won’t find a better place for info.

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16 hours ago, Pipster said:

One thing that you might find helpful is to start with a blank canvas. Choose the tactic you want but literally have no TI. Play the game, watch it on comprehensive and make notes of what you see. After the game look at where the assists were created, who created them. Is it the same players creating. Same with goals against you and also when do you concede? Is it near the end of the game and good it be fatigue. It is truly endless of why it isn’t working and the different combinations of roles and instructions. 
 

Once you have done that reload the game to the point before the match. This is purely for learning what roles and instructions effect the game. How does the tactic fare if you change 1 thing? Change the mentality and see how it affects, change the tempo and see how it affects it. 
 

I don’t condone cheating but I don’t consider this cheating because you are trying to learn what each feature does and how it effects the gameplay. Think of it like a training level of a game. It’s just playing the same match over and over.

Of course once you feel at a level of being more comfortable with tactics then create a save you want to do.

Another way would analyse each game you have played in your current save and see where you are conceding. Are you seeing patterns? Where are the goals coming from. Then try and overcome it and work out how to stop it. Once you have a a tight defence look at how to build upon it. What’s the worst that can happen? You get sacked and you start again but when you do start again you have more experience and more knowledge of what does and doesn’t work.

As you understand the game and the match engine the more you will find the posts on here and the you tube videos make more sense.

Also it’s like any computer game, hard to play at first but practice with it by playing it. The more you play the better you become.

Honestly, if it was an easy game to master the longevity of the game would be poor. You would win everything and get bored. 

Lastly, set your expectations of the team you are playing. No one is going to win every match and win the league in your first season. You will have bad spells. Even the greatest managers do but it’s about learning from them. I quite often read posts where people think 1 super tactic is possible and you will win every game 6-0. It will never be like that and thank god it isn’t.

Great post and currently trialing this to learn more about what I should and shouldn't do. I will put my example below, would be interesting to know what you would change going into game 2 (save and reload, not cheating just testing ideas out) after a 1-0 win (penalty) which we deserved to lose really.

I am playing as AZ at home to Rapid Wien in CL qualifying. I want to play this formation during my season/career:

1937525533_Screenshot2021-01-09at11_37_39.thumb.png.487ff627c286b9f5ceace34a19c75622.png

Rapid Wien are lining up in this formation:

1393613074_Screenshot2021-01-09at11_37_16.png.4a09fe66d9d80f767b2be3f408266542.png

I was concerned about how we would match up against the wing-backs and inverted wingers and it turned out not very well. I made some small tweaks in game to have my AMC mark their DLP but time after time their two wingbacks got in behind my wingers and were able to cross into the box. What is also worth noting is look at my bookings. The two DMs were constantly exposed and had to defend the wide areas, committing fouls. I don't have the PKM now to analyse  but I am almost certain these all occurred in wide areas. These were the full-time stats:

1455896812_Screenshot2021-01-09at11_36_00.thumb.png.cc60e20f77fce316f33c566d59a9c26a.png

The ideas I have are to play with LM and RM to provide more support on the flanks. Ideally I want my full backs to mark/close down their wing-backs a little earlier but they seem to get dragged infield by the wingers too often so using wide midfielders instead of wingers here might help. With this in mind I still want my best attacking talent, Stengs to play in a dangerous area so I will play him AMC and use a different player at RM, De Wit making way.

The other idea if I wanted to keep the same formation would have been to increase my LOE and prevent short GK distribution to see if I could stifle their attacks a little earlier before they were able to advance into my third and exploit the flanks. I may use this in my third playthrough to see if this has any effect.

For the tactical gurus, what are your initial thoughts of how you would approach this game?

Edited by Obaaa
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To be honest I don’t know your players and squad so no idea. Best thing to do is go into team report then comparison and look what your strengths and weaknesses are. Look how that can be fitted into your formation. Play to your strengths.

 

best thing to do would be start your own thread and put what you have above and then what I mentioned about team comparison and post your findings. That way more people will see it and can comment and follow your journey of your tactic. Otherwise hijacking someone else’s thread you won’t get the response you need.

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Was just an extension of your original post and the thread is about understanding the game mechanism so it might even help the OP. 

But never mind ill do my own testing. 

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2 hours ago, Pipster said:

Honestly? Answer the questions I put above. Sorry if that seems blunt

You will only be able to get help if we can get the information that we have asked for. I’m more than happy to help anyone but please understand that there is no magic wand, no set tactic that will win you every game. It’s not like that in the real world and the game is trying to replicate the real world. You need to play to your strengths until you can then make changes to the team how you want to by buying the right players for how you want to play.
 

My tactic for my lower league team will be completely different from a tactic for another club. That is because my tactic plays to the strengths of my team. However, that doesn’t mean I win every game and win the league. It’s a gradual transition and after 20 games I’m sat outside the playoffs but I know I need to get better more consistent players in but when you don’t have any money to spend and the wage budget is over the budget then you have to work with what you have and adapt. I know in my game that my aim is to reach the playoffs this year and then build on the team ready for a promotion push next season. That way I’ll be in a better position to stay up in the league above. If we go up this season we will come straight back down.That is be setting my goals of whatI want to achieve and it’s realistic.

 

What I’m getting at is you need to set aims and targets for your team and what you want to do. It has to be realistic.

 

Trying to be as honest as I can here but I think you need to look further into what the instructions do and get to grips with how the game works. I would honestly go up to the top of this forum and read each and every sticky. You won’t find a better place for info.

FIrstly, of course, thank you for your reply and explanations. I'm not thinking that it should be done with magical wound. I only want to find out about logic of the game. Like, what to do when losing, or when huge favorite, what to do in different situations. It would all be easier if I knew that, and it seems like that I dont know that.

Secondly, you said to me that it is important to play by your strenghts, I see, but.. it seems to me that even thought there are situations that game mechanism likes more, I just dont get it that you can suceed with every system if it is properly done. I am only saying this impression because of this SUPER tactics, it seems they are always doing it in same manner.

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One more thing, I noticed many people play 44 diamond. I just made this because I am wondering what do you think about my setup (I just quick picked team, so player selection is not important now, point is in roles).

 

Just want to see if I am getting the main logic

 

(three with defence, etc.)

Snimka zaslona 2021-01-09 143033.png

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Thing is I still do not know what your strengths are. I don’t know who your players are so it’s impossible to help you unless I know that information.


One thing I can say is changing your tactic constantly will 100% not work. Top right hand corner is a thing called tactical familiarity, if your players don’t know your tactic then they won’t be able to apply it on the pitch

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37 minutes ago, Obaaa said:

Was just an extension of your original post and the thread is about understanding the game mechanism so it might even help the OP. 

But never mind ill do my own testing. 

It wasn’t a criticism. I actually think it would be a great thread and something that would be looked at by a lot of people. 
 

last thing you want is for something like this stuck at the bottom of someone else’s thread. It wouldn’t get the coverage and replies it deserves.
 

personally I would love to see you start a thread of what you’re talking about and I would keep an eye out for it and would contribute to it

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13 minutes ago, flauta kicma said:

One more thing, I noticed many people play 44 diamond. I just made this because I am wondering what do you think about my setup (I just quick picked team, so player selection is not important now, point is in roles).

 

Just want to see if I am getting the main logic

 

(three with defence, etc.)

Snimka zaslona 2021-01-09 143033.png

I also think you’re seeing people have success with a tactic and you think that you will get success with the same tactic.

on the tactic you have just posted can you tell me the following please

- why have you picked that formation?

- why have you picked the roles for each position?

- why have you gone for a positive mentality 

- why have you gone with hit early crosses

ask yourself why for everything you set or change and think how it will work, will it conflict, can my players do that

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20 minutes ago, flauta kicma said:

I only want to find out about logic of the game

In my previous post I explained to you the tactical logic, not just of the game (FM) but real-life football as well. And I did that through a very concrete example of a 442 setup followed by a simple explanation that anyone should be able to understand. But you obviously don't want to learn and instead are stubbornly doing the same - creating one tactic after another on a random basis and without any clear and logical context.

Unless you completely change such approach - not just to FM and tactics but the philosophy of life as well - you can hardly expect any improvement in your experience of the game. 

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Hello, sorry for the intrusion. This comment won't provide any tips and help specific to any problems addressed in this thread. Instead, I wanted to ask for confirmation about something as I am relatively new. Can I open a thread about my Leipzig team and how to best set up a tactic with the current group of players in the squad, highlighting key players and going through the team's strengths and weaknesses? I will pose my thinking behind why I set up something and be happy to receive any recommendations on what could be done better from the other better managers here instead of my assistant managers? As they play well in real life and are among the top teams in Europe, some elements of their playstyle and principle will likely be an inspiration when making our tactic.

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6 minutes ago, raktim0699 said:

Can I open a thread about my Leipzig team and how to best set up a tactic with the current group of players in the squad, highlighting key players and going through the team's strengths and weaknesses?

Of course you can - and should. The tactical forum is precisely about that.

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6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In my previous post I explained to you the tactical logic, not just of the game (FM) but real-life football as well. And I did that through a very concrete example of a 442 setup followed by a simple explanation that anyone should be able to understand. But you obviously don't want to learn and instead are stubbornly doing the same - creating one tactic after another on a random basis and without any clear and logical context.

Unless you completely change such approach - not just to FM and tactics but the philosophy of life as well - you can hardly expect any improvement in your experience of the game. 

Now you are talking about my life haha

but I get the point.

But hey, it is hard to do it, to make some new direction if you dont know  the thing, the path, dont know how to combine things, when I am starting it, I really believe I am on good track, but it looks I am really not, but it is not on purpose

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7 hours ago, Pipster said:

I also think you’re seeing people have success with a tactic and you think that you will get success with the same tactic.

on the tactic you have just posted can you tell me the following please

- why have you picked that formation?

- why have you picked the roles for each position?

- why have you gone for a positive mentality 

- why have you gone with hit early crosses

ask yourself why for everything you set or change and think how it will work, will it conflict, can my players do that

- it was formation of my your, many teams played like that, and I have AMC and two strikers. and the best tactic is set up like that so that means game like the formation

- BPD and CD to have some variations, left back on WB  and left WM AT to have width and WM more on centre on pitch, right FB on def to have three at the back and to watch when eight winger goes onto attack. that allows me to have dm on S, and DM only to make it simple. AMC is AM on support because I already have two strikers. And strikers are classic setup... Early crossses beavcuse I dont have many players in centre of pitch so there is best to cross it earlirer. Wide because of same reason. But wide, tempo and passing I never know how to set up. 

- positive because I am third team in country

 

 

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Again, you will tell me that I am doing same mistakes.

 

But thing is that I am not doing it on purpose. How is it possible ot have 1 shot???? And what is different approach? I just dont get the term of trying something new, I am in FM's stone age

ddddd.png

ssss.png

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8 hours ago, flauta kicma said:

One more thing, I noticed many people play 44 diamond. I just made this because I am wondering what do you think about my setup (I just quick picked team, so player selection is not important now, point is in roles).

 

Just want to see if I am getting the main logic

 

(three with defence, etc.)

Snimka zaslona 2021-01-09 143033.png

Hi. I’ve been playing the game for years and do not have as great a tactical mind as others on here but I do win leagues all the time. With that setup, if it was me, I would pull Goncalves back more centrally but maybe still keep him as an AMsu. Saying that, you could change him to a CMsu and he would probably still be effective. I would change the PF to a TM/DLF/F9 to help link up with midfield and the AF. I’d never play with a AF and PF at the same time. It might work but I personally don’t use it. I’d push the wide players up higher and have both full backs as WBsu. Don’t play with a positive mentality all the time. If I’m playing a fairly strong side away, I’d be on balanced or cautious and try to counter attack them.  If I do find myself trailing in a match with half an hour to go, I sometimes change mentality to Attacking and have drawn and won games like that. 
 

Another little thing I do when watching the match is if I want to watch how a player acts, click on him on the pitch and his name will constantly be above him. That way I can see what he’s doing in every situation. 

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Also, put the LOE and Defensive Line on standard for a few games. I’d also turn off Hit Early Crosses. 
 

 

 

Edit: I see you’ve changed your tactic again! Good luck! 

Edited by MrManagerMan
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19 minutes ago, flauta kicma said:

Again, you will tell me that I am doing same mistakes.

 

But thing is that I am not doing it on purpose. How is it possible ot have 1 shot???? And what is different approach? I just dont get the term of trying something new, I am in FM's stone age

ddddd.png

ssss.png

Sorry for the multiple posts but you may be only having one shot because you have a DLPsu and a CMde. There’s no attack in the midfield and these two would surely be too similar. Whose linking with the strikers? Just the wide players crossing or coming in from wide. But that maybe isn’t enough. 

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You say you have 2 good strikers, why are they good? What makes them good in your view?
 

you had 1 shot in that game, where did it come from. How did it build up to the shot? It’s a start to build on.

 

you play on a positive mentality because you’re one of the top 3 teams in Portugal? We’re you the better team in the game above?

 

I don’t think you’ve taken on board any of the help that’s been offered. You still haven’t even looked at your team and found out what your strengths are and your weaknesses. You won’t improve anything unless you absorb what has been explained to you.

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I am not sure why this obsession with 442 to be honest. I know it seems such a simple formation but I think actually it takes quite a lot of effort to make it work well, and it’s not one of those formations that you can easily play in every match.

Personally if I wanted the easy life I’d just pick an off the shelf 4231 or a 433 and go with that.
 

So many people make so many mistakes with 442 and I think it works better as a counter attacking formation in a lot of scenarios. I’ve had a lot of frustration with it in the past and it took a while for me to understand the intricacies of it.

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