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hello

I play with FC Bayern in a 4-4-2 formation and would like to achieve the following:

-Possession oriented, as the board wants it.
- Offensive football
- many forward goals
- wingers should support the offensive
- The central midfield should rather hedge.

I know that with a 4-4-2 it is difficult to play possession oriented football. I'm just too inconsistent, if I had 60% in one game, I only have 42% in the next.

I also have problems creating clear chances and defensively I allow too many clear chances, so I have already conceded 2 defeats with at least 3 goals.

This is my player material. What would you change or do differently with this squad?

Thank you for helping

2021-01-04 17_50_39-Football Manager 2020.png

2021-01-04 17_53_08-Football Manager 2020.png

2021-01-04 18_04_02-Football Manager 2020.png

2021-01-04 18_07_01-Football Manager 2020.png

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A couple of quick tips:

- do not play (or at least try to avoid playing) a conservative fullback role (FB on support duty in this case) behind an inside-oriented + inherently attack-minded role such as IW, because the former could fail to provide proper attacking support for the latter, especially in more advanced phases of play

- prevent short GKD makes little sense in your formation (442) with only 2 players up front

- If you want to defend that aggressively in order to win the ball high up the pitch, then better go with a more top-heavy formation (4231 or at least some variant of 433)

- No need to specifically instruct the keeper whom and how to distribute the ball when you already play out of defence

Last but not least, why did you opt for the 442 as your formation of choice with a team like Bayern in the first place?

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1 hour ago, mikcheck said:

@Experienced Defender I wonder why do think  442 is not a good choice for a team like Bayern?

Because 442 is more suitable for more direct and counter-attackish styles, whereas Bayern is a top team that mostly has to deal with very defensive opposition and therefore needs to find more sophisticated ways to break them down. It's not impossible to play a 442 with a top team, but such formation makes it harder to set up a good working tactic that will be consistently successful. 

A diamond version of 442 - wide or narrow - looks like a better choice to me (in case one insists on the 442 as the core system). 

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On 04/01/2021 at 20:21, vandamme22 said:

hello

I play with FC Bayern in a 4-4-2 formation and would like to achieve the following:

-Possession oriented, as the board wants it.
- Offensive football
- many forward goals
- wingers should support the offensive
- The central midfield should rather hedge.

I know that with a 4-4-2 it is difficult to play possession oriented football. I'm just too inconsistent, if I had 60% in one game, I only have 42% in the next.

I also have problems creating clear chances and defensively I allow too many clear chances, so I have already conceded 2 defeats with at least 3 goals.

This is my player material. What would you change or do differently with this squad?

Thank you for helping

2021-01-04 17_50_39-Football Manager 2020.png

2021-01-04 17_53_08-Football Manager 2020.png

2021-01-04 18_04_02-Football Manager 2020.png

2021-01-04 18_07_01-Football Manager 2020.png

If your wings are your strength  mate you can play with 442 but yeah it's generally better for direct or counterattacking play as it employs two strikers able to start counterattacks on their own and lacks numbers in the midfield-the most important area to control the match . If you don't care about possession numbers and look for efficient possession, this has the potential of deal with two dm or 3 cb formations effectively. However, your midfield doesn't offer enough support to the strikers and to the wings so changing them DLPS and BBM would provide two more dynamic passing options for your attackers when needed. I strongly suggest changing your striker duties around to create better attacking balance. In addition to this, as ED said an IW is better supported by a fullback going forward consistently to provide an outball for the winger cutting inside.

When it comes to your instructions, sometimes lowering tempo by a notch is better to keep the possession and maintain penetration more effectively against deep and narrow defences. Lastly, when counterpressing, passing into space and hit early crosses might be better as your team needs to exploit space after a turnover in the final third to score a goal. These instructions may facilitate this. By the way, preventing gk distribution with only two pressing players is not useful so removing it is a good idea.

Anyway, when you change the formation to play to its strengths, it may look like this.

                CFS      PFA

WMS       DLPS    BBM      IWA/WMA

WBS        BPDD     CDD     WBS

                          SKD

PFA will occupy one or two CBs. CFS is expected to drop deep and drift wide to take his marker with him and going to combine with WBS, WMS and DLPS. WMS will be supported by WBS, a possession-oriented fb role to offer early crosses for attackers or cutbacks to DLPS or WMS. DLPS and BBM will hold the central channel providing switches of play to the other flank and recycling possession. The IWA and WBS is going to combine well with BBM to create another overload there. IWA is expected to attack the far post when the ball is on the left side and provide a distraction for PFA to exploit pockets of space.

WMS: sit narrower to support DLPS better and create more space for WBS.

CFS: tackle harder

 

Edited by frukox
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I struggle to understand why people think the 442 isn't suitable for possession football! Any formation can play however you want, provided the strategy is in place.
By the way, the 442 can become anything you want, again depending on roles, duties and PPMs, but that's a conversation for another day.
The high LOE coupled with Lewa's and Kane's work rate are great tools to defend from the front.

What was the reason behind the loss against Werder Bremen? Set-pieces? Balls over your defence line? It seems they were quite happy giving up the ball and seize their chances. They were also somewhat efficient with 7 of the 10 shots on target. I'd watch the highlights again if you're that bothered about it.

If possession if your thing... you have a couple of attacking duties which coupled with a Positive mentality mean they will rush things. Also have a look at their PPMs.
In terms of your formation, roles and duties I wouldn't change a thing. Instead I'd remove counter and add either shorter passing or lower tempo and keep an eyes on things (if possession is really what you want).
You may lose a bit of directness but those attacking duties should still give you enough punch going forwards.

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On 04/01/2021 at 19:41, Experienced Defender said:

 

- do not play (or at least try to avoid playing) a conservative fullback role (FB on support duty in this case) behind an inside-oriented + inherently attack-minded role such as IW, because the former could fail to provide proper attacking support for the latter, especially in more advanced phases of play

 

On the back of this, I have a question. I've just started a new save on FM21 where I'm using Claudio Ranieri's style at Leicester as inspiration. I'm using an Inverted Winger on Attack duty on the right and have my Full Back on Support duty. I figured that would make more sense seeing as my IW will be driving at the box and not doing any defensive duties so I would need a more conservative full back (like Mahrez with Danny Simpson behind him. Simpson would sit much deeper and cross from there if the ball ever broke back to him). On the left I have an IW on Support duty and behind him a Wing Back on Support duty (Albrighton and Fuchs), because while I want my left back to get forward a bit more, I don't want him committing himself so far up the pitch that he can't get back into position should we lose the ball up the pitch. 

I guess my question is this: does it make sense to play a more conservative set of full backs behind two inverted wingers if I'm playing a counter attacking system where I sit deeper and try to hit the opposition on the break? The OP is obviously trying to play a different style to me so I wondered if that would make the difference between the types of full back you would use. 

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1 hour ago, OrientTillIDie said:

I guess my question is this: does it make sense to play a more conservative set of full backs behind two inverted wingers if I'm playing a counter attacking system where I sit deeper and try to hit the opposition on the break?

In a counter-attacking - or otherwise more direct/fast transition-minded - tactical style, it is certainly much less of an issue than in a (primarily) possession-oriented system. Simply because you are willing to accept less possession and less smoothness overall in your attacking play. So it's ultimately always a matter of risk-vs-reward.

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Am 4.1.2021 um 20:41 schrieb Experienced Defender:

A couple of quick tips:

- do not play (or at least try to avoid playing) a conservative fullback role (FB on support duty in this case) behind an inside-oriented + inherently attack-minded role such as IW, because the former could fail to provide proper attacking support for the latter, especially in more advanced phases of play

- prevent short GKD makes little sense in your formation (442) with only 2 players up front

- If you want to defend that aggressively in order to win the ball high up the pitch, then better go with a more top-heavy formation (4231 or at least some variant of 433)

- No need to specifically instruct the keeper whom and how to distribute the ball when you already play out of defence

Last but not least, why did you opt for the 442 as your formation of choice with a team like Bayern in the first place?

Thx for the quick tips: I will adapt some of it

Am 4.1.2021 um 20:41 schrieb Experienced Defender:

Last but not least, why did you opt for the 442 as your formation of choice with a team like Bayern in the first place?

I just want to play with 2 strikers and not necessarily have 3-4 central midfielders. A diamond formation I would of course still prefer, but then my wingers like Sane, Gnabry or Coman would no longer be usable.

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In this version of FM it's impossible for me to play any other role than FB/support. If I'm using WB or CWB, I get countless corners (wide backs are always trying to move towards end line, and their crosses are blocked - it's driving me crazy) and countless offsides - they are moving forward to early and to far and not tracking back in time. It happens also with FB/Support role but not so often. FB/support still are providing enough widtht.

It is logical to play more advanced roles but current ME is somehow broken in this case. 

Edited by szp
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Am 5.1.2021 um 21:14 schrieb frukox:

If your wings are your strength  mate you can play with 442 but yeah it's generally better for direct or counterattacking play as it employs two strikers able to start counterattacks on their own and lacks numbers in the midfield-the most important area to control the match . If you don't care about possession numbers and look for efficient possession, this has the potential of deal with two dm or 3 cb formations effectively. However, your midfield doesn't offer enough support to the strikers and to the wings so changing them DLPS and BBM would provide two more dynamic passing options for your attackers when needed. I strongly suggest changing your striker duties around to create better attacking balance. In addition to this, as ED said an IW is better supported by a fullback going forward consistently to provide an outball for the winger cutting inside.

When it comes to your instructions, sometimes lowering tempo by a notch is better to keep the possession and maintain penetration more effectively against deep and narrow defences. Lastly, when counterpressing, passing into space and hit early crosses might be better as your team needs to exploit space after a turnover in the final third to score a goal. These instructions may facilitate this. By the way, preventing gk distribution with only two pressing players is not useful so removing it is a good idea.

Anyway, when you change the formation to play to its strengths, it may look like this.

                CFS      PFA

WMS       DLPS    BBM      IWA/WMA

WBS        BPDD     CDD     WBS

                          SKD

PFA will occupy one or two CBs. CFS is expected to drop deep and drift wide to take his marker with him and going to combine with WBS, WMS and DLPS. WMS will be supported by WBS, a possession-oriented fb role to offer early crosses for attackers or cutbacks to DLPS or WMS. DLPS and BBM will hold the central channel providing switches of play to the other flank and recycling possession. The IWA and WBS is going to combine well with BBM to create another overload there. IWA is expected to attack the far post when the ball is on the left side and provide a distraction for PFA to exploit pockets of space.

WMS: sit narrower to support DLPS better and create more space for WBS.

CFS: tackle harder

So mate I have now adjusted some things based on your recommendations.

1403467921_formationangepasst.thumb.png.d07e63d178af5bd5f1c2fd3a833b2826.png

I have made three games. I don't know if that is representative. Here are the results:

hertha.thumb.png.e80c41207995aebe5f7d98d0a97b159b.png

Against hertha: a dominate home win against a relegation candidate - nothing special

city.thumb.png.fd8f82025f13eb7fb2dcdb616691cfe6.png

Against City away: good defensive performance - more long shots allowed than clear scoring chances. Is acceptable against a strong opponent in an away game

stuttgart.thumb.png.2135475ee95f339ec663ebec26373639.png

and now the tragedy against stuttgart away: was literally run over - despite brief leading. -pressing against me. I could hardly free myself from the situation. What do you do against such opponents? On paper they are not even the favorites

then a few words about the role WM: if you look at my wing players, none of them are suited to this role.:

brekalo.thumb.png.e1bbd510ab5b9ae0933fafa9a156e842.pngcoman.thumb.png.e79ab84f3105d7469610a50c55a82f9e.pnggnabry.thumb.png.3eba90ec6565a6e8b83bebbbe5cf9d5a.pngsane.thumb.png.bc2b458def9bbcfbd4392feb2e03bd43.png

 

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Am 5.1.2021 um 22:53 schrieb MadOnion:

What was the reason behind the loss against Werder Bremen? Set-pieces? Balls over your defence line? It seems they were quite happy giving up the ball and seize their chances. They were also somewhat efficient with 7 of the 10 shots on target. I'd watch the highlights again if you're that bothered about it.

1 goal was a long ball over my defence line and the other twos was combination from the wings into my box and than a placed shot.

 

Am 5.1.2021 um 22:53 schrieb MadOnion:

In terms of your formation, roles and duties I wouldn't change a thing. Instead I'd remove counter and add either shorter passing or lower tempo and keep an eyes on things (if possession is really what you want).

I dont want ball possession in height of 60-65% - 55-58% will be ok to satisfy the board expectations. 

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Am 5.1.2021 um 19:47 schrieb Experienced Defender:

A diamond version of 442 - wide or narrow - looks like a better choice to me (in case one insists on the 442 as the core system). 

How would you set-up this?

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58 minutes ago, vandamme22 said:

So mate I have now adjusted some things based on your recommendations.

1403467921_formationangepasst.thumb.png.d07e63d178af5bd5f1c2fd3a833b2826.png

I have made three games. I don't know if that is representative. Here are the results:

hertha.thumb.png.e80c41207995aebe5f7d98d0a97b159b.png

Against hertha: a dominate home win against a relegation candidate - nothing special

city.thumb.png.fd8f82025f13eb7fb2dcdb616691cfe6.png

Against City away: good defensive performance - more long shots allowed than clear scoring chances. Is acceptable against a strong opponent in an away game

stuttgart.thumb.png.2135475ee95f339ec663ebec26373639.png

and now the tragedy against stuttgart away: was literally run over - despite brief leading. -pressing against me. I could hardly free myself from the situation. What do you do against such opponents? On paper they are not even the favorites

then a few words about the role WM: if you look at my wing players, none of them are suited to this role.:

brekalo.thumb.png.e1bbd510ab5b9ae0933fafa9a156e842.pngcoman.thumb.png.e79ab84f3105d7469610a50c55a82f9e.pnggnabry.thumb.png.3eba90ec6565a6e8b83bebbbe5cf9d5a.pngsane.thumb.png.bc2b458def9bbcfbd4392feb2e03bd43.png

 

Please don' t look at role suitability indicators. That's rule number 1. 

The number 2 is no tactic can play the same way against different opponent. You need to adapt your tactic by watching the game and trying to determine where the opposition tries to control the game. Probably, in the first game the Herta just played with a low block and didn't even bother with pressing.

In your second game, you probably prevented the possession-based City from controlling the game by playing with a high block

In your third game, my guess is they pressed you high, won the ball when you were trying to transition to your attack, they played with a fast tempo and exploited any openings after these turnovers.

When the opposition plays like this, you can be better off going direct and adding another attack duty to your strikers to exploit the space they leave behind while pressing high. I'd remove Play out of Defence first then tell my GK to distribute the ball to the fbs. Then, I drop my two CMs to two DMs changing their roles to DMS/REG and DMS/SVS/SVA. Still I'd need my midfield to join any attacks I start not to lack any passing options behind our attacking line. If I played a SVA there, I'd make right fb to a simple fbs for extra defensive stability, etc. So long story short, you need to adapt as AI adapts to yours over time. So you should do it, too;) Good luck, mate!

Edited by frukox
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It looks as though the loss against Stuttgart was more of a consequence of players being sent off.

@frukox mentioned a couple of good points. It's all about finding the balance and hitting that sweet spot. I'd keep an eye on possession but also the number of shots, that requires changing the strategy some time to time.

Against Hertha, did you have space into space and hit early cross on? Was that effective at all? Such strategy is beneficial when there's space to exploit. It doesn't seem that was the case. They had 0 shots, which can be a credit to your defence, but also to their unwillingness to come at you. In order for that to work, I'd probably lower the line of engagement in a bid to encourage them to come out a bit more.

Also, in my opinion, Brekalo's attributes are more suited to be a winger rather than a wide midfielder. His positioning, work-rate, bravery and aggression are quite low which means he'll probably shy away from any challenges.
A good way to leverage this would be change Kante's role to a CM-D, Carrilero or ball winning midfielder.
 

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4 hours ago, vandamme22 said:

A diamond formation I would of course still prefer, but then my wingers like Sane, Gnabry or Coman would no longer be usable.

What about the wide diamond? 

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23 minutes ago, MadOnion said:

It looks as though the loss against Stuttgart was more of a consequence of players being sent off.

@frukox mentioned a couple of good points. It's all about finding the balance and hitting that sweet spot. I'd keep an eye on possession but also the number of shots, that requires changing the strategy some time to time.

Against Hertha, did you have space into space and hit early cross on? Was that effective at all? Such strategy is beneficial when there's space to exploit. It doesn't seem that was the case. They had 0 shots, which can be a credit to your defence, but also to their unwillingness to come at you. In order for that to work, I'd probably lower the line of engagement in a bid to encourage them to come out a bit more.

Also, in my opinion, Brekalo's attributes are more suited to be a winger rather than a wide midfielder. His positioning, work-rate, bravery and aggression are quite low which means he'll probably shy away from any challenges.
A good way to leverage this would be change Kante's role to a CM-D, Carrilero or ball winning midfielder.
 

Ah, I didn't see the red cards. Interestingly, they are from the right flank, this may mean you need to watch what happens there more carefully. I'd watch how the bookings happened there and try to find out the underlying cause and make one change and again watch the games whether the tactic benefited from it or not.

Edited by frukox
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On 05/01/2021 at 21:53, MadOnion said:

By the way, the 442 can become anything you want, again depending on roles, duties and PPMs, but that's a conversation for another day.

One day I’d like that conversation. I’ve always been possession 4231 but really want to try a more direct 442 or 441 with FM21.  I know there’s no universal tactic but some do’s and don’t on TI, roles and duties would be great. Especially if your teams passing isn’t great. 

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb frukox:

Please don' t look at role suitability indicators. That's rule number 1. 

I have meant the corresponding attributes to the WM role. 

 

vor 6 Stunden schrieb frukox:

When the opposition plays like this, you can be better off going direct and adding another attack duty to your strikers to exploit the space they leave behind while pressing high. I'd remove Play out of Defence first then tell my GK to distribute the ball to the fbs. Then, I drop my two CMs to two DMs changing their roles to DMS/REG and DMS/SVS/SVA. Still I'd need my midfield to join any attacks I start not to lack any passing options behind our attacking line. If I played a SVA there, I'd make right fb to a simple fbs for extra defensive stability, etc. So long story short, you need to adapt as AI adapts to yours over time. So you should do it, too;) Good luck, mate!

that is easier said than done :)

I know what you mean. But when and how do you notice that the opponent is performing like this? Do I have to watch the games in their entirety or are extended highlights enough? 

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb Experienced Defender:

What about the wide diamond? 

never tried this in the last fm versions. Would not know how to set the role distribution and instructions....

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb MadOnion:

It looks as though the loss against Stuttgart was more of a consequence of players being sent off.

Not mandatory. They were already very superior and it was a question of time. They got a penalty and my player was already ywarned and then got the red card.

 

vor 5 Stunden schrieb MadOnion:

I'd keep an eye on possession but also the number of shots, that requires changing the strategy some time to time.

Concretely what does that mean:  keep on eye on the number of shots? what do I have to change if the opponents record many shots on goal despite a high defensive line and high pressing? 

 

vor 5 Stunden schrieb MadOnion:

 They had 0 shots, which can be a credit to your defence, but also to their unwillingness to come at you.

Right, was more their unwillingness to play overall football. 

 

vor 5 Stunden schrieb MadOnion:

Also, in my opinion, Brekalo's attributes are more suited to be a winger rather than a wide midfielder. His positioning, work-rate, bravery and aggression are quite low which means he'll probably shy away from any challenges.
A good way to leverage this would be change Kante's role to a CM-D, Carrilero or ball winning midfielder.

And the role combination wbs and winger support is balanced?

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11 minutes ago, vandamme22 said:

never tried this in the last fm versions. Would not know how to set the role distribution and instructions....

 

11 minutes ago, vandamme22 said:

if you have time, gladly both :)

Okay, here we go. First the wide one:

CFsu     AF

AMat

IWsu                              WMsu

HB

WBat     CDde  BPDde   IWBsu

SKde/su

Now the narrow:

DLFsu     AF

AMat

DLPsu    CAR

HB

WBat   CDde  BPDde   WBsu

SKde/su

Of course, these are just possible examples to give you some food for thought on how either of these 2 systems can be set up in a balanced and sensible way. It does not mean that you have to use a literally identical setup. Instead, analyze these two to understand some basic principles and then try to create your own accordingly. If you have any questions, feel free to ask :thup:

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29 minutes ago, vandamme22 said:

I have meant the corresponding attributes to the WM role. 

 

that is easier said than done :)

I know what you mean. But when and how do you notice that the opponent is performing like this? Do I have to watch the games in their entirety or are extended highlights enough? 

I got it.

It's easy to notice. They start to play with a high line pressing you in your defensive third. When they do this it's time to exploit that space with fast attackers. You have to watch it at least with comprehensive highlights or watch your possession numbers in the action zones tab but I recommend you watching your games in full to understand the game better.

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Am 8.1.2021 um 19:53 schrieb Experienced Defender:

CFsu     AF

AMat

IWsu                              WMsu

HB

WBat     CDde  BPDde   IWBsu

SKde/su

Now the narrow:

DLFsu     AF

AMat

DLPsu    CAR

HB

WBat   CDde  BPDde   WBsu

SKde/su

First of all thx for your support!

I would like to take a closer look at the 4-4-2 diamond wide variant. Why because I can simultaneously play with two strikers and my strong wing players.

formation.thumb.png.37fd4f20f9588f0fe73fd4d4cd94021e.png

how do you rate the tactics with the roles, tasks and team settings overall?

Also goal of this tactic should be:
Play aggressive offensive and possession oriented (55-58%) would be good. I just want to control the ball - it's not about tiki taka.

What would you then change from the basic tactics away from home against stronger opponents?

which I would theoretically still change:
- the AF as PFA
- WM as a winger or IW (then IWB as WBS)
- HB as DLP support or defend

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1 hour ago, vandamme22 said:

how do you rate the tactics with the roles, tasks and team settings overall?

I like the setup of roles and duties, which is quite expected given that I proposed it :D

On the other hand, I don't like your out-of-possession TIs, simply because they are needlessly aggressive for my liking. 

I would also remove the pass into space, because with a top team like Bayern + a tactic as aggressive as yours, it's more likely to lead to cheap and needless losses of possession (because there is hardly going to be enough space to take advantage of) than really creating something tangible. 

1 hour ago, vandamme22 said:

What would you then change from the basic tactics away from home against stronger opponents?

Besides my remarks above, I would only remove the counter-press against strong(er) opposition and perhaps switch the LB from WB on attack to FB on attack. Other possible tweaks would depend on what I observe in a particular match.

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