Peaky Blinders: Dean Smith's Aston Villa 4231 Recreation

[Flußkrebs]

Hi all, happy new year. 

Aston Villa have been one of my favourite teams to watch in the league this season, partially due to Grealish's somewhat mesmerizing performances, but also that they just look good this season. And the numbers back them up on this. 

In the 15 league games they have played so far this season, they've earned 26 points. They've scored 29 goals and conceded 16 in those games as well, which makes them the 5th best attacking team and 3rd best defensive team in the league. 

What's remarkable about Villa this season is how they improved so rapidly from one of the worst teams last season to one off the best this season. As the below graphic from Tom Worville shows, they first improved the defense during the post-lockdown period, and then this season have kept that solid defense and improved the attack.

 

Now part of that is down to Grealish going full Hazard in the last 6 months and the acquisitions of Ollie Watkins, and to an extent Ross Barkley. But I also think the tactical changes Dean Smith has implemented are also part of the story.

Who plays?

Aston Villa have shifted to a 4231 this season, away from the 433/4141/451 they  played last season. The 4231 achieves two things:

- 4 attacking players, so Grealish and the striker have support

- 442 defensive shape, to allow more proactive pressing higher up the pitch

Villa have had a very solid core off 8 players who play nearly every game:

               Watkins

     XXX   Grealish   XXX

           McGinn Luiz

Targett Mings Konsa Cash

                Martinez

And then 2 of Bertrand Traore, Anwar El-Ghazi, Trezeguet and Ross Barkley make up the rest of the team.

If Barkley plays, then Grealish plays on the left and one of the wingers plays on the right. Otherwise, Grealish will usually play through the middle with El-Ghazi on the left and Traore or Trezeguet on the right. These wide options are all slightly different, so the team will look slightly different in attack depending on the personnel. But the back 6 looks more or less the same every game. 

How do Villa play?

There are a couple of interesting tactical quirks that have characterised Villa this season.

Villa look to attack quickly and directly, completing the most direct attacks in the league by a decent margin (yes, ahead of Leeds), where a direct attack is a sequence starting in their own half and either resulting in a shot or a touch in the opposition penalty area within 15 seconds, i.e. a quick attack. So a high mentality and/or high tempo, plus counter attacking is needed to help achieve this I think.

VIlla press quite high, but not furiously. Their PPDA (how many passes their opponents are allowed in their opponents half for each defensive action Villa try) is 6th highest in the league, putting them between Manchester City and Manchester United.

Something else I have noticed from Villa is that they are not afraid to drop their defensive line if necessary once the press has been broken. I'm not necessarily convinced this is the best tactical decision from them but it is definitely a quirk I have noticed (Villa fans please chime in).

What is in common is that Villa build through their fullbacks and central midfielders, with Luiz the more defensive and McGinn the more offensive. Both central midfielders take turns to sit whilst one goes forward however (like the old school 442) and they will also occasionally swap sides. In FM terms though, Luiz plays on the right as a holding player who also breaks up play, whilst McGinn on the left will sometimes sit but also join the attack and combine with the left sided attack. 

The full backs are both offensive and will often either get to the line for a cutback or indeed penetrate the corner of the box in an underlapping run. The wingers will obviously cut inside as a goal threat but will also remain high and wide to stretch the game, leaving space for the full back to run on the inside. So in FM terms underlapping runs are definitely required. 

There have been two main phases of Villa this season- with Barkley and without Barkley. 

Here is the Aston Villa passmap against Arsenal. As you can see, Barkley was positioned ahead of Watkins and Grealish, and received the most progressive passing (usually what the centre forward would receive). You can see the more reserved back 6, with full backs in line with McGinn and Luiz. Trezeguet played more reserved here as well. 

I don't have a passmap, but without Barkley, when Grealish plays centrally, he plays less as a shadow striker/attacking advanced midfielder and is much more roaming, with lateral movements, usually drifting to his preferred left hand side but also popping up on the right and deeper in midfield. This is more of a Trequartista role. 

Last season when Villa lost the ball they would drop back into a 451 block. However, with the shift to the more top heavy their defensive shape is a 442, with the no. 10 joining the striker to press. From what I have seen Watkins and Barkley will usually press with Watkins on the left and Barkley on the right (Watkins naturally prefers playing in that left half space). But, with Grealish as the 10 and also preferring those spaces, they will often swap what sides they line up in defensively. For the sake of FM, like the CMs, we should just pick an orientation and stick with it. 

Here are some of the strengths that WhoScored have identified, which pass the eye test in my opinion. Like I said, they attack directly and are aggressive in and out of possession. There is a strong left side bias to the attack and they try and control the game in the opposition half. 

The 2 different tactics that Villa use depending on whether it is a AM line of Grealish-Barkley-Trezeguet/Traore or El-Ghazi-Grealish-Trezeguet/Traore are quite distinct, so I will show two different versions of the tactic depending on the personnel available.

The players

Let's start with the back 4 and the keeper. 

We're keeping it pretty simple here.

Martinez is more than just a standard GK, recovering balls at quite a high rate. But he isn't super adventurous either. SK(d) makes sense.

Mings is the slightly more adventurous of the two centre backs, and is slightly more likely to bring the ball out of possession with a dribble. Konsa rarely dribbles at all. Both play very similarly in defense as well, so two defensive duties makes sense. Mings plays the most accurate and inaccurate long balls in the squad after Martinez. Konsa actually plays a decent amount of long passes as well (and is more accurate at it...) but it is a lot less than Mings, so I'm happy with this pairing. 

The fullbacks are both on support as we will be playing on a positive mentality. However, I have given Targett the PIs get further forward, dribble less, and shoot less. 

As you can see from this stylistic comparison of the two full backs, Cash is by far the more defensively active, and is a more active dribbler. Targett barely dribbles at all but does pop up in the opposition box (although he doesn't shoot much). 

Additionally from an FM point of view, the relatively offensive front players requires nothing more offensive than FBs I think. They will still be involved in offensive play, but as part of the supporting cast, which is accurate.

Now, onto the central midfielders:

Now, these numbers should be taken with a slight pinch of salt as SmarterScout has them down as DMs (think this is a stylistic thing with the 4231 formation). I was tempted to try with at least one Segundo Volante in the DM strata, but that would change the tactic significantly.

McGinn is the more dynamic of the two (and the better all round player). He is all action- good in attack, plenty of high quality defending, aggressively gets forward, dribbles a lot. The two things he doesn't do is ball retention (i.e. not a safe passer/safe option in possession) and his passing is hyper aggressive ("link up passing" being passing which does not bring the ball 10m closer to the opponents goal). A role like CMs/BBM or Car with PIs might be appropriate, or even a playmaker role. 

Luiz is a safer option. He actually is slightly less active defensively but he offers good ball retention despite his active dribbling, and acts as the outlet in possession. 

I have gone with this central midfield pairing. I don't think it necessarily captures the entire side of their respective games, but I think anything much different would be punished in FM. And it should function similarly to how they play irl, but other options might also have worked (maybe mezzala/RPM for McGinn, or dropping them into the DM strata and going SVs/DMs). I have given McGinn take more risks and close down more. The Car(s) mentality is positive so he should find himself involved in attacking play enough. Luiz has take fewer risks. He is there basically as an extra body.

Now the exciting front 4.

Let's start with the version where Barkley plays

The wide players both have "stay wider" when the team is in possession, to stretch the play and to mimic the underlapping runs from deep around the box. The shadow striker has "close down more" and is off centred, to cause that natural drift out to the left from the centre forward, who I've considered shifting wide himself but he seems to do it naturally like this. 

The IWs will put in a shift on the right flank, offering some to the attack but often also tracking back to cover the flank. 

Grealish as a Trequartista is a no brainer for me. He is more than just an AP on the wing or an IWa. He HAS to be a ball magnet role, and he also drift laterally constantly, and offers relatively little in defence.

Shadow striker Barkley could be a AMa, but the difference I observe is relatively minimal. The SS seems to be more dynamic and has a higher mentality under the hood so is more likely to form that 442 shape in defence, especially with close down more.

Watkins as a CFs is also a nice role. His traits like get forward whenever possible and tries first time shots mean he will continue to be a goal threat, and will naturally run in behind with his speed. But he is very much a floating play facilitator, all round centre forward. I love watching him play. And the CFs (or DLFs) in the 4231, especially off centred, creates some lovely attacking interplay. 

Here is the front 4 without Barkley:

Now this front 4 is actually based off a front 4 I was using on a different save, and it made me think how similar it was playing to when Grealish plays as the 10. The interplay is even nicer in my opinion.

One issue with this front 4 from a realism point of view is that Grealish does play on the left hand side a lot, but also on the right when is as the 10. So putting him in the middle would make the most sense. However, I'd then have to off set the centre forward to try and get the 442 in defense shape. Plus having it set up as above creates some lovely overloads on the right for the IFa on the left to score from. This is semi realistic- El Ghazi has been an incredible goal threat the last few Villa games (critically underrated player imo). And IFa/IFs/IWa are the right kind of roles for him. 

Anyway, this front 4 I know for a fact creates lovely play, and is semi accurate to irl Villa. I think shifting Grealish to the left channel in FM is a no go, it'd be too unbalanced (especially with the more adventurous CM playing on the left hand side). Sometimes recreations come up against FM necessity! 

The Tactic

And finally the TIs. These are the same for both tactics so I will just show one:

The TIs are quite simple. Villa generally play out of defence but aren't wedded to it in the way Arsenal are for example. So Martinez has no distribution method instruction, and with the current ME SKs with a counter TI ticked will 100% play quite a lot of long balls. Which is exactly what we want in this tactic. But getting the balance right might mean taking off some of the related TIs but you can choose that. 

Fairly narrow- Villa do attack quite narrowly. And the wingers have stay wider on to try and provide a bit of width here. However, maybe standard would be better as the ME at the moment seems to have players playing very narrowly regardless. I have tried both and fairly narrow seems to create slightly better underlaps and interplay in front of the box, but standard is definitely better for breaking down teams when you are in and around the box. I have used both. 

Underlaps left and right we have spoken about already, low crosses to try and simualate the high number of cut backs the FBs do (always a struggle in FM lol)

Standard DL/LoE- Villa fall back into a mid block quite often, and don't play with a high line usually. They do press aggressively though, so Counter Press and More urgent pressing are both on.

Counter is self explanatory.

Some extra thoughts

Set pieces are a big part of Villa's success this season. I would even be tempted to go for "play for set pieces" if it could somehow simulate players trying to win free kicks in attacking areas, but I'm worried it would cause even more corners, which is not something we need (there are already a lot in current ME). But make sure you use a good set piece design anyway!

The tactic might look a little open- although I did compromise with the Car(s) to try and mitigate some of this. However, Villa themselves can look like this. Despite their very solid defensive record, they often leave a lot of space in between the back 4 and the double pivot. Man Utd took advantage of this for sure the other night.

The tactic is probably "unbalanced" from the POV of traditional FM advice. Again, I have tried to mitigate this a little by using no. 10 Grealish on right hand side. But the more attacking FB/CM/AM is always on the left, and the more defensive on the right. This is just how Villa play though, so a recreation has to include this unbalance. 

Sample results

Whilst results are not the primary aim of this tactic, and it is more about creating a reasonably accurate version of how an exciting team has played this season, results are always nice to see.

Here are some results. I've left out preseason as they're usually a wash anyway (although very successful):

 

A draw away at Spurs, a 2-0 win against Man U at home (and then unfortunately knocked out on pens in the Cup), and a 3-1 demolition of big rivals Wolves. Plus a cheeky 5-0 against Colchester.

Barkley did get injured in the first game unfortunately, so we used the version with Grealish as the 10 for 3 of these games. Here are the stats:

Forward players all doing well, full back ratings are pretty rubbish but that's not unusual for the current ME imo.

I think of the two tactics the SS version is stronger. I want to tweak both and think both could definitely be improved from an FM point of view. We lost the next two games (unfairly according to xG) but solid upper mid table is fairly realistic. I am not happy with the defensive side of results- I think in FM we would need either ramped up pressing (higher lines?) or to turn McGinn into a more reserved holding role. 

Interested to hear everyone's thoughts! 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Flußkrebs

[HowzatFM]

This is a really really good thread! 

As a Villa fan myself, the comments I would make would be regarding the underlaps, Targett and Cash usually overlap before either crossing or cutting it back to Grealish who likes to drift to the edge of the box as the ball 'magnet' 

With a fully fit squad it is most likely Barkley will play in the middle with Grealish out wide on the left, but at the start of the season he also drifted out to the left to interplay with Grealish and Targett. I know you mentioned the inbalance for this in FM, however maybe switching the CMs around may be a better option for FM recreation? Luiz is the more defensive minded of the CMs, but this year McGinn has played a lot deeper using his wider range of passing alongside Luiz who protects the defence a little more

[Flußkrebs]

19 hours ago, benhoward12 said:

This is a really really good thread! 

As a Villa fan myself, the comments I would make would be regarding the underlaps, Targett and Cash usually overlap before either crossing or cutting it back to Grealish who likes to drift to the edge of the box as the ball 'magnet' 

With a fully fit squad it is most likely Barkley will play in the middle with Grealish out wide on the left, but at the start of the season he also drifted out to the left to interplay with Grealish and Targett. I know you mentioned the inbalance for this in FM, however maybe switching the CMs around may be a better option for FM recreation? Luiz is the more defensive minded of the CMs, but this year McGinn has played a lot deeper using his wider range of passing alongside Luiz who protects the defence a little more

Thank you! You're right, watching back a bit and there are definitely overlaps. But there are also plenty of times where the full back will hold the ball and pass it back inside to the runner. Personally I think underlaps give prettier attacking play in FM but maybe turning them off would be more accurate!

I've tried holidaying a bit with various versions of the tactics with a left sided overload and I've struggled to get any success. But also haven't put a ton of thought into it. I also tried switching the midfield combo to Car-DLPs, DLPs-CMd and CMs-DLPd. All seem to be decent. Something I'll maybe come back to in the future. 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Flußkrebs

[UnkownManager]

A great read. Very similar to how I have my tactic setup with Man Utd, with the changing front 4. Very nice!

[nick1408]

Hi @Flußkrebs - great thread. I enjoyed reading. I do have a couple of questions after reading:

 

1.  You've mentioned that a 4-4-2 is used in defence a few times yet put out a 4-2-3-1 defensive shape. Why is that?
2. McGinn - like @benhoward12 I thought he needed to be a different role, although I would have gone with CM-Su with some PI's. CAR just seems too 'static' (not as likely to make forward runs). While he has 2 goals in your stats are they open play goals? With no assists from midfield at all I'd be inclined to be thinking you may need some more penetration and McGinn's position is where I'd be looking at it from. The CM-Su and CAR both have the same mentality. With the space in front of him I reckon he could become a secondary goal threat and at least offer either out ball options or actual assists with a different role.
3. Notwithstanding point 1; how does the AMCR compare to the same role in AMC? You did say the front four are based off a different save (which is absolutely fine) I am just curious if there actually is a difference or if it's placebo.

[Flußkrebs]

40 minutes ago, nick1408 said:

Hi @Flußkrebs - great thread. I enjoyed reading. I do have a couple of questions after reading:

 

1.  You've mentioned that a 4-4-2 is used in defence a few times yet put out a 4-2-3-1 defensive shape. Why is that?
2. McGinn - like @benhoward12 I thought he needed to be a different role, although I would have gone with CM-Su with some PI's. CAR just seems too 'static' (not as likely to make forward runs). While he has 2 goals in your stats are they open play goals? With no assists from midfield at all I'd be inclined to be thinking you may need some more penetration and McGinn's position is where I'd be looking at it from. The CM-Su and CAR both have the same mentality. With the space in front of him I reckon he could become a secondary goal threat and at least offer either out ball options or actual assists with a different role.
3. Notwithstanding point 1; how does the AMCR compare to the same role in AMC? You did say the front four are based off a different save (which is absolutely fine) I am just curious if there actually is a difference or if it's placebo.

Hi @nick1408, thanks for the Qs.

So, the 442/4231 issue is something I've been thinking about how best to simulate in FM for a while now. Whilst nominally the FM formation is the defensive formation, so if they 'defend' in a 442 then we should play with the 442 on paper and set up the roles in order to get the attacking shape we want, I'm not sure if that will work. Let me explain.

So the number 10 in Villa's system will usually (but not 100% of the time) move up alongside the striker so they can press effectively from the front and/or block passing lanes. Sometimes this will even be a press with a front line of 4, which will then settle into rigid banks of 4 in defence. 

Barkley is a true universal midfielder. In build up he will sometimes drop to collect the ball in the DM slot, he will run forward and play passes. In build up around the box he will both act as a central anchor for Grealish to play 1-2s off and he will play through balls to Watkins. And he will also swap with Watkins and try and get on the end of chances himself. So whatever role we give him  needs to try and simulate as much of this movement as possible. 

Realistically getting a player to drop very deep in possession and also press as part of a front isn't going to happen

Here's a still from the Liverpool game as an example- Watkins has just tackled Wijnaldum and Barkley is up alongside him.

I have tried playing with two up top (f9 and dlf for the barkley role) and you just don't get the 4231 shape in attack and build up to the same extent unfortunately. 

I've also tried and had some success with shifting the AM into the LCAM slot and the striker through the middle and in the RCF slot and this has worked well, creating more space. 

You're right about McGinn- CMs with take more risks and dribble more seems to be about right? I don't want move into channels or roam from position on though. MIC would cause too much clogging with the TQ and AM, and Roam would cause issues with the nominal double pivot.

Adding regroup has helped with defence somewhat.

AMC actually tends to work better than AMCR in terms of results . I struggled to get standard 10s to work on FM20 but playing an attacking striker with an SS/AM/AP seems to be quite easy to get going this year. But it doesn't really mimic the defensive shape I want. You can try using man marking of opposition centre-backs to try and force the issue but I'm not sure that's what is best.

PS. For what its worth re pressing, my take is that microromanaging of pressing structures/triggers is something ubiquitous at the top level but is not implemented in FM. And I imagine if it was it would be bad for balance and too easily exploitable for the human player. 

[ericstpeter]

What skin are you using? I really like it.

[UnkownManager]

2 hours ago, ericstpeter said:

What skin are you using? I really like it.

Is that not just the default skin?

[nick1408]

I thought I'd post this as I've been playing with this tactic (albeit slightly adjusted). I've just knocked off France 3-2. Goals from the striker x 2 and one from a corner. I've flipped the tactic from @Flußkrebs above and also adjusted McGinn to a CM-Su with takes more risks, dribble more and close down more. Basically what we were chatting about above.

 

What's interesting here is France played a 4-4-2 while I played the 4-2-3-1. We can compare the average positions which is the overall average positions. What does happen is there is a lot of space for McGinn to play passes into. What happened a lot in this game was Hickey picked the ball up, played it to McGinn who then had a roughly open field to play the next ball. A lot went to the treq (who admittedly isn't the best for me - Billy Gilmour). McGinn passed the ball 73 times in this game and Turnbull 28 times. I don't have stats for Gilmour unfortunately.

 

I have Norway next so I might move the SS central just to see how it goes.  @Flußkrebs is right about one thing though - there is lots of space.

[drigaco]

10 horas atrás, Flußkrebs disse:

Hi @nick1408, thanks for the Qs.

So, the 442/4231 issue is something I've been thinking about how best to simulate in FM for a while now. Whilst nominally the FM formation is the defensive formation, so if they 'defend' in a 442 then we should play with the 442 on paper and set up the roles in order to get the attacking shape we want, I'm not sure if that will work. Let me explain.

So the number 10 in Villa's system will usually (but not 100% of the time) move up alongside the striker so they can press effectively from the front and/or block passing lanes. Sometimes this will even be a press with a front line of 4, which will then settle into rigid banks of 4 in defence. 

Barkley is a true universal midfielder. In build up he will sometimes drop to collect the ball in the DM slot, he will run forward and play passes. In build up around the box he will both act as a central anchor for Grealish to play 1-2s off and he will play through balls to Watkins. And he will also swap with Watkins and try and get on the end of chances himself. So whatever role we give him  needs to try and simulate as much of this movement as possible. 

Realistically getting a player to drop very deep in possession and also press as part of a front isn't going to happen

Here's a still from the Liverpool game as an example- Watkins has just tackled Wijnaldum and Barkley is up alongside him.

I have tried playing with two up top (f9 and dlf for the barkley role) and you just don't get the 4231 shape in attack and build up to the same extent unfortunately. 

I've also tried and had some success with shifting the AM into the LCAM slot and the striker through the middle and in the RCF slot and this has worked well, creating more space. 

You're right about McGinn- CMs with take more risks and dribble more seems to be about right? I don't want move into channels or roam from position on though. MIC would cause too much clogging with the TQ and AM, and Roam would cause issues with the nominal double pivot.

Adding regroup has helped with defence somewhat.

AMC actually tends to work better than AMCR in terms of results . I struggled to get standard 10s to work on FM20 but playing an attacking striker with an SS/AM/AP seems to be quite easy to get going this year. But it doesn't really mimic the defensive shape I want. You can try using man marking of opposition centre-backs to try and force the issue but I'm not sure that's what is best.

PS. For what its worth re pressing, my take is that microromanaging of pressing structures/triggers is something ubiquitous at the top level but is not implemented in FM. And I imagine if it was it would be bad for balance and too easily exploitable for the human player. 

Regarding the different formations when attacking and defending I guess it's really hard to put in the game and the best we'll get is base formation + roles/duties. 

I love structure and positional play and when I try to somehow replicate Pep, or at least the structure (I don't know if this is the best word to describe it) it's really frustrating. For example, City almost always defends in a 4-1-4-1 (of course this is just base formation because pressing triggers make everything change suddenly) but against teams that defend in a 5-4-1/5-3-2 they like to have 6 players vs 5 defenders, so they attack in a 316 structure. It's impossible at this moment to have those 3 players in defence like they do IRL , not with a FB (d) or the HB (d).

A bit off-topic but just wanted to complement the fact that it's very hard to replicate this type of movement where your defensive and attacking BASE formations are different.
 

[ericstpeter]

8 hours ago, UnkownManager said:

Is that not just the default skin?

Not sure. I I’ve used customs from the beginning because I like the “instant result” button on mods.

[Flußkrebs]

3 hours ago, ericstpeter said:

Not sure. I I’ve used customs from the beginning because I like the “instant result” button on mods.

It is just the default skin Unless you were talking about some of the other screenshots, which are from various online analytics sites.

4 hours ago, drigaco said:

Regarding the different formations when attacking and defending I guess it's really hard to put in the game and the best we'll get is base formation + roles/duties. 

I love structure and positional play and when I try to somehow replicate Pep, or at least the structure (I don't know if this is the best word to describe it) it's really frustrating. For example, City almost always defends in a 4-1-4-1 (of course this is just base formation because pressing triggers make everything change suddenly) but against teams that defend in a 5-4-1/5-3-2 they like to have 6 players vs 5 defenders, so they attack in a 316 structure. It's impossible at this moment to have those 3 players in defence like they do IRL , not with a FB (d) or the HB (d).

A bit off-topic but just wanted to complement the fact that it's very hard to replicate this type of movement where your defensive and attacking BASE formations are different.
 

For what it's worth, I've been playing with various different versions of these tactics and any combo of SS/a and CF/s (esp with both having close down more PI) seems to get a pretty good pressing shape.

The sad part is that it's not particularly effective in FM at all- I guess it's a pretty complicated topic but football aesthetics vs functionality and how they translate into FM is kinda interesting. Like, why do we care about the pressing structure if Burnley can just tiki taka their way through it (speaking from experience... ).

Also, I tried adding Regroup instead of Counter-press and thought it did the trick defensively- in one of the dozen or so sims I've done over the last day or two we were sat 5th going into December (5th on expected points as well). But then there was a massive collapse with just 3 wins in Dec-Jan-Feb so I have no idea 

I also tried removing ALL the TIs (inspired by that blank slate thread that's on the front page). Sometimes it worked sometimes it didn't, and regardless the only part I was erally happy with was it kept the relatively fluid front 4 and kept a defensive block of 8. I admire it from a building your own tactic point of view, but it isn't really of much help when trying to create specific existing systems (there's that aesthetic v function debate again...). 

[Jack722]

On 06/01/2021 at 17:28, Flußkrebs said:

It is just the default skin Unless you were talking about some of the other screenshots, which are from various online analytics sites.

For what it's worth, I've been playing with various different versions of these tactics and any combo of SS/a and CF/s (esp with both having close down more PI) seems to get a pretty good pressing shape.

The sad part is that it's not particularly effective in FM at all- I guess it's a pretty complicated topic but football aesthetics vs functionality and how they translate into FM is kinda interesting. Like, why do we care about the pressing structure if Burnley can just tiki taka their way through it (speaking from experience... ).

Also, I tried adding Regroup instead of Counter-press and thought it did the trick defensively- in one of the dozen or so sims I've done over the last day or two we were sat 5th going into December (5th on expected points as well). But then there was a massive collapse with just 3 wins in Dec-Jan-Feb so I have no idea 

I also tried removing ALL the TIs (inspired by that blank slate thread that's on the front page). Sometimes it worked sometimes it didn't, and regardless the only part I was erally happy with was it kept the relatively fluid front 4 and kept a defensive block of 8. I admire it from a building your own tactic point of view, but it isn't really of much help when trying to create specific existing systems (there's that aesthetic v function debate again...). 

Hello mate, nice thread.

I haven't watched much of Villa this season unfortunatley, but you said that Villa defend in a sort of mid block 442 now. Have you thought about moving your wingers down a notch into a 4411?

Not only would this be able to reproduce a 442 in defence more accurately, but I've never managed to find any sort of long term consistency using a top heavy formation combined with a mid block, and it could be partly due to that collapse you had in mid season. Then you could also keep the 4231 but change the pressing instructions to make a high block for when you are chasing a game.

If you're letting the oposition come on to you somewhat, it makes more sense to me to defend with two banks of four, and only leave two players up for the counter, rather that 4.

It may also allow you to make McGinn a little more adventurous, seeing as the reaction seemed to be that a CAR was too conservative for him

Edited January 19, 2021 by Jack722

[beverage1982]

Great thread. I actually had a lot of success with a Villa recreation here: 

 We are a great team to watch at the moment, the difficulty for me is getting the TI and mentality right. Positive makes sense for those direct transitions, but sometimes we're downright p[onderous in our build up (deliberately so) and there has been a new found emphasis on keeping things simple which tempts me to go lower down the chain.

 

I too had Barkley as an SS but in recent weeks Watkins has become far more of a PF for me. I'm tempted to go him as PF (A) then watkins as AM (S) behind.

Anyway just some food for thought but I think I'm going to try a Counter mentality version to see if it's too ponderous. 

 

Also re underlaps. Personally i'd go focus play left and leave it at that. 

 

[HowzatFM]

8 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

Great thread. I actually had a lot of success with a Villa recreation here: 

 We are a great team to watch at the moment, the difficulty for me is getting the TI and mentality right. Positive makes sense for those direct transitions, but sometimes we're downright p[onderous in our build up (deliberately so) and there has been a new found emphasis on keeping things simple which tempts me to go lower down the chain.

 

I too had Barkley as an SS but in recent weeks Watkins has become far more of a PF for me. I'm tempted to go him as PF (A) then watkins as AM (S) behind.

Anyway just some food for thought but I think I'm going to try a Counter mentality version to see if it's too ponderous. 

 

Also re underlaps. Personally i'd go focus play left and leave it at that. 

 

I do think to replicate Villa in FM the formation should probably be 4-4-1-1 to recreate the 2 banks of 4 Villa create in defence, with quick transitions on the attack

Edited January 22, 2021 by benhoward12

[beverage1982]

8 hours ago, benhoward12 said:

I do think to replicate Villa in FM the formation should probably be 4-4-1-1 to recreate the 2 banks of 4 Villa create in defence, with quick transitions on the attack

Agree entirely. The only issue then is that it's hard to recreate Jack's role, I could never quite get him right as I think Treq is the most suitable

[HowzatFM]

11 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

Agree entirely. The only issue then is that it's hard to recreate Jack's role, I could never quite get him right as I think Treq is the most suitable

Yeah that is the difficult part! IW(A) would be the best role for a 4-4-1-1 I would say 

[beverage1982]

2 minutes ago, benhoward12 said:

Yeah that is the difficult part! IW(A) would be the best role for a 4-4-1-1 I would say 

Yeah that's what I had most success with but never quite felt right. Also worth checking out Rashidi's Controlled Blocks post which I think is a good template. I may try a 4231 deep as I like the idea of Mcginn as a Vol (S), that structure would also naturally lead to quick counters and bottom heavy shape. 

[HowzatFM]

14 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

Yeah that's what I had most success with but never quite felt right. Also worth checking out Rashidi's Controlled Blocks post which I think is a good template. I may try a 4231 deep as I like the idea of Mcginn as a Vol (S), that structure would also naturally lead to quick counters and bottom heavy shape. 

Yeah it’s a good thread! The counter attacking thread below has some good stuff regarding quick transitions! 
 

the only thing I find with this game is that if you invite pressure you can get punished easily, which doesn’t always reflect real life

 

[beverage1982]

I'm still struggling with this a little.

Agree 4411 is the best way to do it. Just can't seem to get the front 3 (jack Ollie Barkley) right.

 

I'm leaning IW / wp (a) for Jack. IW has the right movement but wp is more a ball magnet.

 

Then SS or Am (a) for Barkley?

 

For Ollie... DLF (a)? Cf(s)? Pf (s)?

 

Then TI I'm thinking.

 

Positive/Direct/dribble more/play out of defence

Counter/counterpress

Tight marking/tackle hard/lower line of engagement.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by beverage1982

[frukox]

6 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

I'm still struggling with this a little.

Agree 4411 is the best way to do it. Just can't seem to get the front 3 (jack Ollie Barkley) right.

 

I'm leaning IW / wp (a) for Jack. IW has the right movement but wp is more a ball magnet.

 

Then SS or Am (a) for Barkley?

 

For Ollie... DLF (a)? Cf(s)? Pf (s)?

 

Then TI I'm thinking.

 

Positive/Direct/dribble more/play out of defence

Counter/counterpress

Tight marking/tackle hard/lower line of engagement.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd use this as a base and tweak it when needed on a match-to-match basis.

                 DLFA

                   SS

WPA   MEZS   CMD    WMA

 

WBS     CDD    CDD     FBS

                   SKD

Positive Mentality

Hit Early Crosses, Pass Into Space, Overlap Left, Underlap Right, Focus Play Down Left Flank

Roll It Out, Distribute Quickly, Counter

Higher DL, More/Extreme Urgent Pressing, Use, Offside Trap

Edited January 25, 2021 by frukox

[beverage1982]

10 hours ago, frukox said:

I'd use this as a base and tweak it when needed on a match-to-match basis.

                 DLFA

                   SS

WPA   MEZS   CMD    WMA

 

WBS     CDD    CDD     FBS

                   SKD

Positive Mentality

Hit Early Crosses, Pass Into Space, Overlap Left, Underlap Right, Focus Play Down Left Flank

Roll It Out, Distribute Quickly, Counter

Higher DL, More/Extreme Urgent Pressing, Use, Offside Trap

Thanks. Some food for thought. I'd say in my experience that's probably a little too aggressive for both Villa IRL and FM. I think McGInn is a CM (S) or at most a B2B. Likewise more urgent pressing but I'm intrigued by High d-line as the defenders were quite high up against newcastle. 

Also not sure about Underlap on the right though I'll agree with Overlap on left. Likewise 4 attack duties upfront scares me in FM  more of a Paul lambert cautious type on the game anyway which  I'm having to overcome to get Villa's style this year. 
 

[frukox]

 

9 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

Thanks. Some food for thought. I'd say in my experience that's probably a little too aggressive for both Villa IRL and FM. I think McGInn is a CM (S) or at most a B2B. Likewise more urgent pressing but I'm intrigued by High d-line as the defenders were quite high up against newcastle. 

Also not sure about Underlap on the right though I'll agree with Overlap on left. Likewise 4 attack duties upfront scares me in FM  more of a Paul lambert cautious type on the game anyway which  I'm having to overcome to get Villa's style this year. 
 

I don't think that's a big problem. MEZ will stay wide letting WPA in to the central areas and combine with WBS there. Attacking duties are for direct plays and they are responsible for diffferent parts of the pitch with that role distribution. DLFA will drop deep. SS/WMA will move forward to attack space and WPA will be more direct with his passing and dribbling supporting the attacking trio. It should be effective with a fast mid-block. Without increasing closing down intensity, I always feel a bit passive when defending. 

Underlap Right is for getting the flank players mentality closer to be more compact and drive FB inside in front of CMD.

[nick1408]

I'm not sure how pertinent this is. I created a tactic inspired by Dean Smith last year. I say inspired by because it is a 4-4-2. The 4-4-1-1 should be a natural variation. The point being is it is extremely similar to what @beverage1982 and @frukox are putting forward. Also, I had switched the McGinn and Luiz positions around to get some better balance in FM-terms:

 

 

Ignore the players - a few are out of position. PI's were as follows (remember, this isn't a strict interpretation):

FB-At - Cut inside with ball

WB-Su - Dribble more

W-At - Close down more, Tackle harder

CM-Su - Take more risks, Get further forward, Move in channels, Close down less

WP-At - Close down more, Tackle harder

AF-At - Close down more, Tackle harder

Depending on the winger that sometimes changed to Support. The CB's depending on personnel sometimes changed to BPD's (never two at once). This was for 2019/20 season so Smith has switched it up a bit. In the same vein, a few PI's may not be what people were expecting (most likely the full back cutting in). The full back was to take advantage of space vacated by the CM-Su before moving into the underlap position. The full back became a common goal scorer for me where this was not evident for Smith. The inspiration was true to form with the WP-At scoring at a pretty good rate.

 

I did start with the CM-Su on the left and also as a MEZ but it didn't click. I found once I swapped the two CM's it opened up space for the WP to work in. It also gave cover for the WB and WP to both attack while still having cover on the left. 

[beverage1982]

2 minutes ago, nick1408 said:

I'm not sure how pertinent this is. I created a tactic inspired by Dean Smith last year. I say inspired by because it is a 4-4-2. The 4-4-1-1 should be a natural variation. The point being is it is extremely similar to what @beverage1982 and @frukox are putting forward. Also, I had switched the McGinn and Luiz positions around to get some better balance in FM-terms:

 

 

Ignore the players - a few are out of position. PI's were as follows (remember, this isn't a strict interpretation):

FB-At - Cut inside with ball

WB-Su - Dribble more

W-At - Close down more, Tackle harder

CM-Su - Take more risks, Get further forward, Move in channels, Close down less

WP-At - Close down more, Tackle harder

AF-At - Close down more, Tackle harder

Depending on the winger that sometimes changed to Support. The CB's depending on personnel sometimes changed to BPD's (never two at once). This was for 2019/20 season so Smith has switched it up a bit. In the same vein, a few PI's may not be what people were expecting (most likely the full back cutting in). The full back was to take advantage of space vacated by the CM-Su before moving into the underlap position. The full back became a common goal scorer for me where this was not evident for Smith. The inspiration was true to form with the WP-At scoring at a pretty good rate.

 

I did start with the CM-Su on the left and also as a MEZ but it didn't click. I found once I swapped the two CM's it opened up space for the WP to work in. It also gave cover for the WB and WP to both attack while still having cover on the left. 

This is super interesting. I'm currently playing 442 but Barkley as an F9 (still pre season so don;t have anything to report). 

I like Positive, but also playing around with counter mentality as I find Villa are actually quite measure din possession when there's not a break on. Would also enable me to push dline higher (I'm inherently cautious so don;t do it on Positive) which I think rperesents the team. I mean, against Newcastle our two CB's were in their half numerous times so it feels right. Also feels right in terms of build up as as far as I understand HIgher DLine means defenders get more involved in transitions. 

[nick1408]

27 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

This is super interesting. I'm currently playing 442 but Barkley as an F9 (still pre season so don;t have anything to report). 

I like Positive, but also playing around with counter mentality as I find Villa are actually quite measure din possession when there's not a break on. Would also enable me to push dline higher (I'm inherently cautious so don;t do it on Positive) which I think rperesents the team. I mean, against Newcastle our two CB's were in their half numerous times so it feels right. Also feels right in terms of build up as as far as I understand HIgher DLine means defenders get more involved in transitions. 

Anything less than positive I found a bit impotent. Almost too cautious. You'll notice I played with a higher defensive line here - positive and the higher defensive line doesn't make a tactic too dangerous to use.

[beverage1982]

7 minutes ago, nick1408 said:

Anything less than positive I found a bit impotent. Almost too cautious. You'll notice I played with a higher defensive line here - positive and the higher defensive line doesn't make a tactic too dangerous to use.

Duly noted thanks. I'm actually considering higher dline and lower LOE with counterpressing. That way it creates a super compressed block that should counter whilst also - I hope - pressing like villa do. 

[frukox]

4 hours ago, nick1408 said:

I'm not sure how pertinent this is. I created a tactic inspired by Dean Smith last year. I say inspired by because it is a 4-4-2. The 4-4-1-1 should be a natural variation. The point being is it is extremely similar to what @beverage1982 and @frukox are putting forward. Also, I had switched the McGinn and Luiz positions around to get some better balance in FM-terms:

 

 

Ignore the players - a few are out of position. PI's were as follows (remember, this isn't a strict interpretation):

FB-At - Cut inside with ball

WB-Su - Dribble more

W-At - Close down more, Tackle harder

CM-Su - Take more risks, Get further forward, Move in channels, Close down less

WP-At - Close down more, Tackle harder

AF-At - Close down more, Tackle harder

Depending on the winger that sometimes changed to Support. The CB's depending on personnel sometimes changed to BPD's (never two at once). This was for 2019/20 season so Smith has switched it up a bit. In the same vein, a few PI's may not be what people were expecting (most likely the full back cutting in). The full back was to take advantage of space vacated by the CM-Su before moving into the underlap position. The full back became a common goal scorer for me where this was not evident for Smith. The inspiration was true to form with the WP-At scoring at a pretty good rate.

 

I did start with the CM-Su on the left and also as a MEZ but it didn't click. I found once I swapped the two CM's it opened up space for the WP to work in. It also gave cover for the WB and WP to both attack while still having cover on the left. 

Did you try a CMS with Stay Wider or reducing left FB to a FBS to create more depth there?

Counterpress is something I wouldn't do without a good squad. Instead, I found increasing pressing urgency more useful with a compact defence.

[nick1408]

20 hours ago, frukox said:

Did you try a CMS with Stay Wider or reducing left FB to a FBS to create more depth there?

Counterpress is something I wouldn't do without a good squad. Instead, I found increasing pressing urgency more useful with a compact defence.

The tactic worked so I didn’t try those options. I had no need to. 

[beverage1982]

I just thought I'd post with a little update. I managed to get a 4411 Positive built aorund the principles in @engamohd's excellent "A Complete Guide to Quick Transitions and Counter Attacking Football" which I'd highly recommend you read. 

It's a really nice system that manages to replicate Villa's two banks of four and breaks at pace. But here's the thing, watching the last few Villa games I can't help but think that in real life we play on a much lower mentality in FM terms.

Hear me out...

Defending - Often at the back we defend like Burnley of old. It's all about putting bodies on the line, full backs tucking in, and sitting deep. I know that's soemthing you can replicate on higher mentalities, but it's also something that is intrinsic to the lower ones.

Tempo - I can't have been the only person to watch some of our games and see Martinez play it out to Konsa, who knocks it square to Mings, who doesn't have a pass on and (usually) opts to play it safe and plays it back to Martinez. In fact we're very patient at the back this year and by and large very safety first. it is something I remember reading about after Project Lockdown - a sense of going back to basics defensively so to speak. Again to me this screams lower mentality. Sure when we get a bit further forward the play speeds up, but also sometimes it doesn't. In fact, there have been goals this season where Jack and Barkley have basically brought play to a standstill before scoring. That's definitely something you don't get from a higher mentality. 

Villa's strengths - The graphic in the OP says that Villas control the game in the opponents half (which we do) but we also drop deep and into a defensive shape quite readily too. Again this makes me think of a lower mentality but with a higher defensive line. 

So I gave it a try...

I'm not saying this is right, just a different approach, but it's certainly been interesting. The thing is by going lower down the mentality ladder I feel I can play a more traditional 4231, which on positive just didnt work as well as the 4411. That means I have more roles to choose from. 

The lower mentality is also "safer" which means that I'm more comfortable playing a higher defensive line (which I believe we do in real life, just look at the number of times Mings and Konsa were in Newcastle's half at the weekend). And yet, despite playing a high line we still drop into a relatively deep defensive shape because of the mentality.

The lower mentality also means we sometimes slow the pace down in attack and not go gung ho on the break. yet, when the break is on, we're quick like VIlla are too. 

Anyway my work in progress is below. I'm still not happy with Ollie's role, I feel PF (A) probably reflects what he is in real life but not sure. I'm also enjoying the Segundo Volante role for MCGinn who is a B2B but playing deeper this year. The great thing about this role is I can make him hold by putting it on support, but also easily notch him up to attack duty without compromising my shape.

As I say it's just a work in progress for now, but thought I'd share it for the hive mind to discuss. UTV! 

 

[HowzatFM]

6 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

I just thought I'd post with a little update. I managed to get a 4411 Positive built aorund the principles in @engamohd's excellent "A Complete Guide to Quick Transitions and Counter Attacking Football" which I'd highly recommend you read. 

It's a really nice system that manages to replicate Villa's two banks of four and breaks at pace. But here's the thing, watching the last few Villa games I can't help but think that in real life we play on a much lower mentality in FM terms.

Hear me out...

Defending - Often at the back we defend like Burnley of old. It's all about putting bodies on the line, full backs tucking in, and sitting deep. I know that's soemthing you can replicate on higher mentalities, but it's also something that is intrinsic to the lower ones.

Tempo - I can't have been the only person to watch some of our games and see Martinez play it out to Konsa, who knocks it square to Mings, who doesn't have a pass on and (usually) opts to play it safe and plays it back to Martinez. In fact we're very patient at the back this year and by and large very safety first. it is something I remember reading about after Project Lockdown - a sense of going back to basics defensively so to speak. Again to me this screams lower mentality. Sure when we get a bit further forward the play speeds up, but also sometimes it doesn't. In fact, there have been goals this season where Jack and Barkley have basically brought play to a standstill before scoring. That's definitely something you don't get from a higher mentality. 

Villa's strengths - The graphic in the OP says that Villas control the game in the opponents half (which we do) but we also drop deep and into a defensive shape quite readily too. Again this makes me think of a lower mentality but with a higher defensive line. 

So I gave it a try...

I'm not saying this is right, just a different approach, but it's certainly been interesting. The thing is by going lower down the mentality ladder I feel I can play a more traditional 4231, which on positive just didnt work as well as the 4411. That means I have more roles to choose from. 

The lower mentality is also "safer" which means that I'm more comfortable playing a higher defensive line (which I believe we do in real life, just look at the number of times Mings and Konsa were in Newcastle's half at the weekend). And yet, despite playing a high line we still drop into a relatively deep defensive shape because of the mentality.

The lower mentality also means we sometimes slow the pace down in attack and not go gung ho on the break. yet, when the break is on, we're quick like VIlla are too. 

Anyway my work in progress is below. I'm still not happy with Ollie's role, I feel PF (A) probably reflects what he is in real life but not sure. I'm also enjoying the Segundo Volante role for MCGinn who is a B2B but playing deeper this year. The great thing about this role is I can make him hold by putting it on support, but also easily notch him up to attack duty without compromising my shape.

As I say it's just a work in progress for now, but thought I'd share it for the hive mind to discuss. UTV! 

 

This has some really good ideas, especially regarding the higher line! would love to hear how you get on results wise! 

[beverage1982]

On 27/01/2021 at 05:37, benhoward12 said:

This has some really good ideas, especially regarding the higher line! would love to hear how you get on results wise! 

It's actually taken a bit of a back seat at the moment after I started to noodle about with @Rashidi's Bayern replication with Villa.

 

watching the game yesterday I noticed Barkley plays a bit like a Treq-drifting everywhere- a role I'd never normally give him due to Jack. Also villa overload the flanks very well. So I'm seeing if I can make a sort of Frankenstein's monster fast transition version of that Bayern replication.

[HowzatFM]

4 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

It's actually taken a bit of a back seat at the moment after I started to noodle about with @Rashidi's Bayern replication with Villa.

 

watching the game yesterday I noticed Barkley plays a bit like a Treq-drifting everywhere- a role I'd never normally give him due to Jack. Also villa overload the flanks very well. So I'm seeing if I can make a sort of Frankenstein's monster fast transition version of that Bayern replication.

Barkley and Grealish are both very fluid, the left side trio with Targett is a fantastic combination

[beverage1982]

2 minutes ago, benhoward12 said:

Barkley and Grealish are both very fluid, the left side trio with Targett is a fantastic combination

Agreed. It's recreating it that's causing me issues. I've settled on Targett on attack duty as it recreates his driving runs. But I can;t decide on Grealish and Barkley. Treq for Barkley is interesting as it sees him drop as deep as he does in real life. Then IW (s) for Jack, but it's not enough of a ball magnet. maybe Ap (S) which woulkd create two playmakers which would in turn recreate the way those two slow the play down. 

[beverage1982]

I've been laid up at home recently so decided to give this another bash and have landed on something that is shaping up to be pretty good.

Early results have been very promising. I have a few changes I'm thinking of making.

 

Tight marking - With it on one of my CB's seems to consistently get a 6.4 / 6.5 for no reason, I feel like maybe taking it off will keep those banks of four in tact more. 
Watkins - I'm really struggling to find his best role in this set up. I want a striker than runs the channels to left, holds up play but also stretches the opposition defence. Not sure if that's CF (s/A), DLF (A) or something else entirely. 

Anyway just keeping his thread alive but would lvoe any / all thoughts. 

[Christopher S]

1 minute ago, beverage1982 said:

I want a striker than runs the channels to left, holds up play but also stretches the opposition defence. Not sure if that's CF (s/A), DLF (A) or something else entirely. 

Your best bet is definitely a DLFa. That is basically exactly what they are supposed to. 

[beverage1982]

35 minutes ago, Christopher S said:

Your best bet is definitely a DLFa. That is basically exactly what they are supposed to. 

Thank you for this. Two games in and it's already looking better. 

[Flußkrebs]

6 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

I've been laid up at home recently so decided to give this another bash and have landed on something that is shaping up to be pretty good.

Early results have been very promising. I have a few changes I'm thinking of making.

 

Tight marking - With it on one of my CB's seems to consistently get a 6.4 / 6.5 for no reason, I feel like maybe taking it off will keep those banks of four in tact more. 
Watkins - I'm really struggling to find his best role in this set up. I want a striker than runs the channels to left, holds up play but also stretches the opposition defence. Not sure if that's CF (s/A), DLF (A) or something else entirely. 

Anyway just keeping his thread alive but would lvoe any / all thoughts. 

This looks good. I would be interested in seeing results and how you feel the tactic plays (looks maybe a little too counter-attacky?). I've also been thinking about this today after reading an interesting analytics deep dive into Villa this season and I agree that more direct passing is the way to go. 

Hopefully I will get a chance to revisit this soon- I'd also be interested in hearing how Grealish plays as the WP-a (for me TQ is still him to a tee!). 

[beverage1982]

16 minutes ago, Flußkrebs said:

This looks good. I would be interested in seeing results and how you feel the tactic plays (looks maybe a little too counter-attacky?). I've also been thinking about this today after reading an interesting analytics deep dive into Villa this season and I agree that more direct passing is the way to go. 

Hopefully I will get a chance to revisit this soon- I'd also be interested in hearing how Grealish plays as the WP-a (for me TQ is still him to a tee!). 

Was that the Statsbomb article? A great read that made me tweak the tactic slightly.

I'll post some screenies later but I'm sitting 4th, 11 points clear of fifth with about 10 games to go. EDIT: SO I lied, there are 13 games to go. But below is the league table.

 

Of the 4 games we lost we lost to City 3-1 away (just were't at the races), then to City, Utd and :Liverpool 1-0 each time. And each time I'd say we were unlucky not to get something from the game. 

I get your point re: Jack, but what I saw on screen just wasn't right. Partly because I couldn;t get the two banks of four and partly because as a Treq Jack just wasn;t doing Jack things, I mean he couldn't even make it onto the league leaders chart for dribbles per game. As WP (A) however he is moving like Jack does, and now leads the league in dribbles and assists. Got a fair few goals too. 

All in all it's been very accurate, right down to a Watkins scoring drought that eventually turned around. Stats for the key men below. Honestly, this is the most Villa-like tactic I've created this year. If you want to make it less counter attacking all you have to do is move D-line and LOE up a notch each. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by beverage1982

[Christopher S]

8 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

I mean he couldn't even make it onto the league leaders chart for dribbles per game. As WP (A) however he is moving like Jack does, and now leads the league in dribbles and assists

Fwiw, dribbling stats are wonky as all hell. I have a player that will dribble past someone on average between 3-10 times per game from watching the games, but he registers as having 0.9 dribbles per game. 

[HowzatFM]

16 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

I've been laid up at home recently so decided to give this another bash and have landed on something that is shaping up to be pretty good.

Early results have been very promising. I have a few changes I'm thinking of making.

 

Tight marking - With it on one of my CB's seems to consistently get a 6.4 / 6.5 for no reason, I feel like maybe taking it off will keep those banks of four in tact more. 
Watkins - I'm really struggling to find his best role in this set up. I want a striker than runs the channels to left, holds up play but also stretches the opposition defence. Not sure if that's CF (s/A), DLF (A) or something else entirely. 

Anyway just keeping his thread alive but would lvoe any / all thoughts. 

Looks good!! 
 

I would say that Mings is our BPD with the long balls into the left channel 

[beverage1982]

3 hours ago, benhoward12 said:

Looks good!! 
 

I would say that Mings is our BPD with the long balls into the left channel 

Entirely agree although I find in FM the bpd plays more diaganols that channel balls hence the switch. Mind you I've taken it off and gone with 2x CD in my latest iteration.

[ich bin Lior]

On 27/01/2021 at 09:05, beverage1982 said:

I just thought I'd post with a little update. I managed to get a 4411 Positive built aorund the principles in @engamohd's excellent "A Complete Guide to Quick Transitions and Counter Attacking Football" which I'd highly recommend you read. 

It's a really nice system that manages to replicate Villa's two banks of four and breaks at pace. But here's the thing, watching the last few Villa games I can't help but think that in real life we play on a much lower mentality in FM terms.

Hear me out...

Defending - Often at the back we defend like Burnley of old. It's all about putting bodies on the line, full backs tucking in, and sitting deep. I know that's soemthing you can replicate on higher mentalities, but it's also something that is intrinsic to the lower ones.

Tempo - I can't have been the only person to watch some of our games and see Martinez play it out to Konsa, who knocks it square to Mings, who doesn't have a pass on and (usually) opts to play it safe and plays it back to Martinez. In fact we're very patient at the back this year and by and large very safety first. it is something I remember reading about after Project Lockdown - a sense of going back to basics defensively so to speak. Again to me this screams lower mentality. Sure when we get a bit further forward the play speeds up, but also sometimes it doesn't. In fact, there have been goals this season where Jack and Barkley have basically brought play to a standstill before scoring. That's definitely something you don't get from a higher mentality. 

Villa's strengths - The graphic in the OP says that Villas control the game in the opponents half (which we do) but we also drop deep and into a defensive shape quite readily too. Again this makes me think of a lower mentality but with a higher defensive line. 

So I gave it a try...

I'm not saying this is right, just a different approach, but it's certainly been interesting. The thing is by going lower down the mentality ladder I feel I can play a more traditional 4231, which on positive just didnt work as well as the 4411. That means I have more roles to choose from. 

The lower mentality is also "safer" which means that I'm more comfortable playing a higher defensive line (which I believe we do in real life, just look at the number of times Mings and Konsa were in Newcastle's half at the weekend). And yet, despite playing a high line we still drop into a relatively deep defensive shape because of the mentality.

The lower mentality also means we sometimes slow the pace down in attack and not go gung ho on the break. yet, when the break is on, we're quick like VIlla are too. 

Anyway my work in progress is below. I'm still not happy with Ollie's role, I feel PF (A) probably reflects what he is in real life but not sure. I'm also enjoying the Segundo Volante role for MCGinn who is a B2B but playing deeper this year. The great thing about this role is I can make him hold by putting it on support, but also easily notch him up to attack duty without compromising my shape.

As I say it's just a work in progress for now, but thought I'd share it for the hive mind to discuss. UTV! 

 

PI ? looks good mate.

[beverage1982]

So inspired by Aston Villa's summer transfer business (the most important part of which might still be to come) I decided to pick up FM again and see how we'd do with Buendia in the squad.

Using what I'd elarned from this thread and others I tried to build my tactic, a recreation inspired by Dean Smith. I had two 4231's.

The first was a balanced approach designed to get Jack on the ball as much as possible. It proved very effective in the early parts of the season.

The second tactic was a 433 that rpoved to be hugely effective in tough ganmes. We smashed four past Utd with it, beat City away and pushed our title rivals (more on which later) Liverpool to the final whiustle in a thrilling 2-2 at Anfield. It also helped us win the League cup with a 4-0 win over Southhampton. 

Given the formation's success I adapated it to another 4231 for the final third of the season. 

I enjoyed how it played out, though it wasn;t without it's hiccups. A loss to Fulham and a draw with Crystal palace all but derailed our title challenge. But Liverpool dropped points late on, the City came up on the rails which meant going into the final game of the season the top 3 teams (inc luding us) were seperated by just 1 point.

LATE DRAMA
Heading into the final match we went one down, but I stuck with our guns and we romped to a 3-1 victory over West ham. The second half however I spent most of the time watching scores from other matches. City were doing nothing and Liverpool were drawing away at man Utd. Then disaster struck and Mane scored to give Liverpool a slender one point lead.

I'd resigned myself to an impressive league cup and second place season. Then something spectacular happened. 

Mason greenwood instanatly became my hero and I am not ashamed to say dear reader that I was all limbs. I can't remember the last time I won the league on FM with Villa, especially not in the first season.

And what a season. 

I just ahd to share this because frankl;y my wife doesn't know why I'm so excited and I had to put it somewhere. but also as a huge thank you to the folk in this thread and others whose advice and guidance made this possible!

Now I'm off for a spectacular second season come down.

[Flußkrebs]

7 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

So inspired by Aston Villa's summer transfer business (the most important part of which might still be to come) I decided to pick up FM again and see how we'd do with Buendia in the squad.

Using what I'd elarned from this thread and others I tried to build my tactic, a recreation inspired by Dean Smith. I had two 4231's.

The first was a balanced approach designed to get Jack on the ball as much as possible. It proved very effective in the early parts of the season.

The second tactic was a 433 that rpoved to be hugely effective in tough ganmes. We smashed four past Utd with it, beat City away and pushed our title rivals (more on which later) Liverpool to the final whiustle in a thrilling 2-2 at Anfield. It also helped us win the League cup with a 4-0 win over Southhampton. 

Given the formation's success I adapated it to another 4231 for the final third of the season. 

I enjoyed how it played out, though it wasn;t without it's hiccups. A loss to Fulham and a draw with Crystal palace all but derailed our title challenge. But Liverpool dropped points late on, the City came up on the rails which meant going into the final game of the season the top 3 teams (inc luding us) were seperated by just 1 point.

LATE DRAMA
Heading into the final match we went one down, but I stuck with our guns and we romped to a 3-1 victory over West ham. The second half however I spent most of the time watching scores from other matches. City were doing nothing and Liverpool were drawing away at man Utd. Then disaster struck and Mane scored to give Liverpool a slender one point lead.

I'd resigned myself to an impressive league cup and second place season. Then something spectacular happened. 

Mason greenwood instanatly became my hero and I am not ashamed to say dear reader that I was all limbs. I can't remember the last time I won the league on FM with Villa, especially not in the first season.

And what a season. 

I just ahd to share this because frankl;y my wife doesn't know why I'm so excited and I had to put it somewhere. but also as a huge thank you to the folk in this thread and others whose advice and guidance made this possible!

Now I'm off for a spectacular second season come down.

 

Nothing particular to add, just glad you got something out of this thread!

 

[nick1408]

I love this thread. It does get me thinking on the choice of PI's you made and why some changes were made (Watkins changing from PF to CF for example) but it's the sort of thread that inspires me to think you don't need to aim for season two when starting down the table a bit.

[beverage1982]

3 hours ago, nick1408 said:

I love this thread. It does get me thinking on the choice of PI's you made and why some changes were made (Watkins changing from PF to CF for example) but it's the sort of thread that inspires me to think you don't need to aim for season two when starting down the table a bit.

There was no great tactical thinking there. More that as we improved I needed something different to the counter attack that was so successful when teams were treating us with disregard.

I'm into season 2 now and have actually dropped my CM's to the DM strata as I found we were getting caught out by the kind of goals we scored a lot last season> Even Arsenal came to Villa park and put 10 men behind the ball. 

We're doing great, but Buendia and Grealish have fallen off a cliff, mainly because they aren;t getting the space they had in abundance last year. So that's a roundabout way of saying that as we're imrpoving it's simply not enough to counter anymore, I need new ways to goal and CF is part of that, I'm actually experimenting with CF (s) at the moment to try and get better movement and link up when teams are deep against us. 

[nick1408]

13 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

There was no great tactical thinking there. More that as we improved I needed something different to the counter attack that was so successful when teams were treating us with disregard.

I'm into season 2 now and have actually dropped my CM's to the DM strata as I found we were getting caught out by the kind of goals we scored a lot last season> Even Arsenal came to Villa park and put 10 men behind the ball. 

We're doing great, but Buendia and Grealish have fallen off a cliff, mainly because they aren;t getting the space they had in abundance last year. So that's a roundabout way of saying that as we're imrpoving it's simply not enough to counter anymore, I need new ways to goal and CF is part of that, I'm actually experimenting with CF (s) at the moment to try and get better movement and link up when teams are deep against us. 

How will/would you adjust to Grelish leaving and Bailey coming? Buendia out wide?

[beverage1982]

On 04/08/2021 at 23:58, nick1408 said:

How will/would you adjust to Grelish leaving and Bailey coming? Buendia out wide?

I was actually thinking this morning that I'll have to boot up a new save. I always try and slavishly recreate VIlla IRL which with jack has actually been a nightmare as I can never get him to play how I want on FM so this kind of takes the shackles off. 

I suspect we'll play Buendia as the 10 in reality with Bailey out wide ride, Watkins left and Ings up top so I might try that. Probably Buendia as a Treq or Am/p (S) and give him a tonne of runners to thread the ball to.