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Tactical Series - Guardiola Evolution class - 3 teams 3 styles


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16 hours ago, axehan1 said:

Here's my attempt at this formation/tactic.

image.png.9740da36540e6b7ffe4bd7e88c66b939.png

It produces the most amazing football, the half back is probably my most favourite role which helps to combat teams that try to gegenpress, we play out from the back with either the centrebacks starting moves or the keeper finding the halfback, the non use of playmakers in midfield is an absolute must as we want to work the ball forward as often as possible and use the overloads especially down the left flank.As a result my AMR is having a cracking goalscoring season My go to AMR is Mason Greenwood.

image.png.edac969f2d5538318161926d4042c408.png

18 goals in 31 games .The most pleasing aspect is the variety of goalsBalls played through the middle (yes central play) where he cuts inside between central defender and full back and my favourite when play is focused down the left due to the overload and the mezalla will find him one on one with the left fullback and find him with a ball over the top for a volley or a ground pass inside the full back.

The forward is my only concern.Haaland has 24 in 33 in all comps but i'm not entirely sure how to play him.Below is the heat map of our last game against Leicester

image.png.c66a34a677cc0fa875cc47bfb771b732.png

He played as an Advanced Forward in this game and had 5 attempts,2 missed headers and 3 shots saved by the keeper, I felt like he should have scored all 5 so i might persist with him in this role, he was definitely heavily involved throughout.

Axehan, what are your PIs? Thinking about Haaland I'm curious as to what kind of  supply you're giving him. But off the top of my head, I would use him in two ways:

Complete forward support when in control as he will drop deep, play in your wide players by drifting to those overloads,  and still make little runs behind for your through balls , but the AF role is also absolutely devastating against any kind of high line so that would be my alternative against those teams or good teams you're away from home and they have come to attack

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9 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Axehan, what are your PIs? Thinking about Haaland I'm curious as to what kind of  supply you're giving him. But off the top of my head, I would use him in two ways:

Complete forward support when in control as he will drop deep, play in your wide players by drifting to those overloads,  and still make little runs behind for your through balls , but the AF role is also absolutely devastating against any kind of high line so that would be my alternative against those teams or good teams you're away from home and they have come to attack

I don't really believe in PI's.I prefer to work with PPM's.I am trying him as Complete Forward on support but i am going against my non playmaker rule and have changed the Mezalla to Advanced Playmaker.As we're promoting slow build up play we still need a little unpredictability so the introduction of the playmaker will hopefully provide a bit more attacking thrust.Not that we're goal shy, we managed 104 in the league last season and Haaland finished with 33 in 44 games with a 6 week injury in there too.

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Posted (edited)

Save 1 - Final Season Review - Barca Tactic

First, I must admit that I got a little complacent and simmed a majority of the second half of this season. Once I felt I had the tactic down to how I wanted it to play, I just let the team do their thing. Unfortunately, the ass. man did not use my preferred lineup a majority of the time, but we still had some amazing results.

Atleti do the double - Winning La Liga and the Spanish Cup

image.png.89a5aa2a5d2120637e96e18d3cfc50ed.png

We had a large 7 point lead in march that fizzled away with some weird sim losses, but very happy with winning the league. 

In the Champions League, we drew Liverpool in the quarter finals. We tied them 1-1 in the first leg away, then lost 2-1 in ET at home. It was a very close competition, but all in all I'm not too upset at losing to Liverpool, a touch match up for anyone.

End of season analyst report

image.png.8e455e2249a60a0f121f41f00fab610f.png

 

Final Tactic - I'm very happy with how this ended up. I may try playing a few more games with my Lazio squad, as this was a very fun and exciting brand of football. It holds true to positional play rules, and so far has been one of the best at being structured in the back and fluid in the front. There is always going to be discussions about how to really mimic that 2010/2011 Barca squad, and FM I think limits the creativity and fluidity of tactics to make it near impossible. But to me, this was as close as I've gotten with trying many times over the last 3 years.

image.png.708d335ff8aa06268e97249d0fd5e6e1.png

 

Players

Thomas Lemar - Messi Role

Lemar ended the season as our number one choice for the Messi Role, as an AP-A. He offered great build up play, an attacking threat, and good creativity. His stats backed this up.

image.thumb.png.00838fd8eccda9b0fdd70e46117212ba.png

 

Yannick Carrasco - Pedro role

What a surprising season for Yannick. He played lights out when he wasn't hurt, putting in 32 goals and 13 assists across all competitions! He was not pegged by me to be a starter, but proved too good not to play.

image.thumb.png.be8f82891711fc9fd02b7994c417391e.png

 

Angel Correa/Luis Suarez - Villa role

These two split time here. Suarez played a much better second half of the season than Correa and turned it on big late. He also surprised with the number of assists. Correa had 10 goals and 4 assists. Below is Suarez:

image.thumb.png.20794b9307f60e1264b33b1a79b20942.png

Saul - Iniesta role

Saul at times played brilliantly, playing very expansive football. I think he could have better seasons then this stat wise, but overall performed well. 

image.thumb.png.b0737bebc0562d4f75bf7bb4525a568f.png

Koke - Xavi role

Hotly contested role, but he played well and I liked the way he worked. More assists and less goals than Saul. I wish you could change the stats screen here to show key passes and chances created. He had 83 key passes (Lemar had team best with 91).

image.thumb.png.bba88d8ed3be374241f08c2cf22675c6.png

Renan Lodi - Alves role

He played an awful first third of the season. Once we settled on the FB-au PRD, he turned it on. He still I think could have done better, and someone else certainly could who has better mentals. Lodi's technicals and physicals are great, but his mentals are far from what I would want out of a total footballer. I think upgrading this player would be a huge plus for a long term save with this.

image.thumb.png.fc3b130a2c8cf3f68829f68f8139c818.png

 

Long term save info

If someone were to keep managing Atleti, here are some thoughts for what I would do.

  • Upgrade Defense 
  • Lodi is close but not there as discussed, need a better mentals player for total football
  • Right back is a weak spot, need someone who is good defensively, good at recycling possession, crossing isn't important
  • Upgrade 1 CB, need a proper BPD attribute wise, as there is no Pique on this squad. 
  • Keep the midfield diamond (Llorente, Koke, Saul, Lemar)

For financial information, we only sold on Diego Costa at start of season. The year 2 starting payroll is 231 mm leaving us 21 mm room, and 17.22mm transfer budget (sorry in US dollars). There is room here to make some of the above moves, with getting rid or some high salary players as well.

Player PPM thoughts

To get the most out of some of these players, there has been discussion around certain PPM's that will really help. I believe this remains true post season 1 for the midfield maestros, the messi role, the two wing players, as well as the Alves role. There can certainly be a lot of differing thoughts here, and certainly more or less could always work, but I think these at a minimum would be helpful to have for these roles.

Messi Role - Comes deep to get ball, gets into opposition area, plays one twos, runs with ball often

Iniesta Role - Plays One twos, runs with ball often, Tries killer balls often

Xavi role - Dictates tempo, , comes deep to get ball, possibly also plays one twos (wasn't able to get this trained and tested, if you add this can change from RPM to DLP)

Busquets role - Comes deep to get ball, Likes to switch ball to wide areas

Both WIngers - Cuts inside from respective wings

Alves role - Plays one-twos, gets forward whenever possible, runs with ball down (assigned) flank

 

 

Final Pep Barca 2011 Strikerless.fmf

Edited by 04texag
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@04texag - Great work mate. A good season for Atleti playing total football. As you mentioned a couple of upgrades in certain positions will do wonders to this squad. Do you mind sending over the save as it is currently? I would like to run few simulations on it.

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Just now, nidhar.ram said:

@04texag - Great work mate. A good season for Atleti playing total football. As you mentioned a couple of upgrades in certain positions will do wonders to this squad. Do you mind sending over the save as it is currently? I would like to run few simulations on it.

Sure thing, and for anyone else who wants it. Here is the end of season file. Keep in mind I did not do much manual scouting etc. File is too big to do here, so think I did this right with google drive sharing.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/18GW-VqjvkgmSvncSKVDCYeUUF5hiMHES/view?usp=sharing

 

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2 hours ago, 04texag said:

Save 1 - Final Season Review - Barca Tactic

First, I must admit that I got a little complacent and simmed a majority of the second half of this season. Once I felt I had the tactic down to how I wanted it to play, I just let the team do their thing. Unfortunately, the ass. man did not use my preferred lineup a majority of the time, but we still had some amazing results.

Atleti do the double - Winning La Liga and the Spanish Cup

image.png.89a5aa2a5d2120637e96e18d3cfc50ed.png

We had a large 7 point lead in march that fizzled away with some weird sim losses, but very happy with winning the league. 

In the Champions League, we drew Liverpool in the quarter finals. We tied them 1-1 in the first leg away, then lost 2-1 in ET at home. It was a very close competition, but all in all I'm not too upset at losing to Liverpool, a touch match up for anyone.

End of season analyst report

image.png.8e455e2249a60a0f121f41f00fab610f.png

 

Final Tactic - I'm very happy with how this ended up. I may try playing a few more games with my Lazio squad, as this was a very fun and exciting brand of football. It holds true to positional play rules, and so far has been one of the best at being structured in the back and fluid in the front. There is always going to be discussions about how to really mimic that 2010/2011 Barca squad, and FM I think limits the creativity and fluidity of tactics to make it near impossible. But to me, this was as close as I've gotten with trying many times over the last 3 years.

image.png.708d335ff8aa06268e97249d0fd5e6e1.png

 

Players

Thomas Lemar - Messi Role

Lemar ended the season as our number one choice for the Messi Role, as an AP-A. He offered great build up play, an attacking threat, and good creativity. His stats backed this up.

image.thumb.png.00838fd8eccda9b0fdd70e46117212ba.png

 

Yannick Carrasco - Pedro role

What a surprising season for Yannick. He played lights out when he wasn't hurt, putting in 32 goals and 13 assists across all competitions! He was not pegged by me to be a starter, but proved too good not to play.

image.thumb.png.be8f82891711fc9fd02b7994c417391e.png

 

Angel Correa/Luis Suarez - Villa role

These two split time here. Suarez played a much better second half of the season than Correa and turned it on big late. He also surprised with the number of assists. Correa had 10 goals and 4 assists. Below is Suarez:

image.thumb.png.20794b9307f60e1264b33b1a79b20942.png

Saul - Iniesta role

Saul at times played brilliantly, playing very expansive football. I think he could have better seasons then this stat wise, but overall performed well. 

image.thumb.png.b0737bebc0562d4f75bf7bb4525a568f.png

Koke - Xavi role

Hotly contested role, but he played well and I liked the way he worked. More assists and less goals than Saul. I wish you could change the stats screen here to show key passes and chances created. He had 83 key passes (Lemar had team best with 91).

image.thumb.png.bba88d8ed3be374241f08c2cf22675c6.png

Renan Lodi - Alves role

He played an awful first third of the season. Once we settled on the FB-au PRD, he turned it on. He still I think could have done better, and someone else certainly could who has better mentals. Lodi's technicals and physicals are great, but his mentals are far from what I would want out of a total footballer. I think upgrading this player would be a huge plus for a long term save with this.

image.thumb.png.fc3b130a2c8cf3f68829f68f8139c818.png

 

Long term save info

If someone were to keep managing Atleti, here are some thoughts for what I would do.

  • Upgrade Defense 
  • Lodi is close but not there as discussed, need a better mentals player for total football
  • Right back is a weak spot, need someone who is good defensively, good at recycling possession, crossing isn't important
  • Upgrade 1 CB, need a proper BPD attribute wise, as there is no Pique on this squad. 
  • Keep the midfield diamond (Llorente, Koke, Saul, Lemar)

For financial information, we only sold on Diego Costa at start of season. The year 2 starting payroll is 231 mm leaving us 21 mm room, and 17.22mm transfer budget (sorry in US dollars). There is room here to make some of the above moves, with getting rid or some high salary players as well.

Final Pep Barca 2011 Strikerless.fmf 44.37 kB · 0 downloads

Absolutely loved reading this thread. I’ve actually started a Barca save using this as I want to rebuild the squad and bring through their youth academy products. 1st season  I’ve not made many changes and will use the existing squad and bed in the young squad players throughout and get them learning their new positions and PPMS. Next season I’ll move on some of the older players. 
 

What PPMS would you say are necessary for the more conservative full back. In my Barca save its the RB position but the 2 full back options I’ve got are probably to attack minded for this role. This will be one of my top priorities in my 2nd season

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On 03/01/2021 at 00:03, nidhar.ram said:

Well, it certainly falls under the Final Third tab ;) 

But it has always been hard for me to understand BME in the match engine. I haven't seen extravagant roaming, flair or vision when using BME as opposed to when not using it when the same set-up.

Hopefully  someone show some differences it has made to their set-up.

BME refers to movement off the ball as well as decisions and actions with the ball. The "more creative players" bit is a little vague. There is no explanation are those players based on attributes or roles and positions. 

Personally I see changed behavior in all my players. 

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2 hours ago, HurkaDurk69 said:

@04texagcan you update the final tactic with some PPMs that you recommend for the role? I know discussion has been made on this topic, but it is spred out

Yes, good call, I meant to do this. I'm going to add it in to the final post with an edit.

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Alright, It was the opening match week of the season and to be honest, I was a little nervous going into this match against Bilbao who always bring their A game against strong opponents,

It is half time at Metropolitano and this is where we are. Just WoW.. 

image.png.4b9039b1c7577e3a4befbbd75f900eee.png

All goals from open play. Quick passing triangles, pulling the opposition to one flank and unlocking the other. One of the goals shown below.

@04texag - I did tweak TI's ever so slightly and toned down the mentality to Attacking. I also moved AP(A) to forward strata and played him as TQ.  

My new signing Everton Cebolinha from SLB has certainly lit up the half.

Correa_goal.gif.55795de86b446f927566da05b2f360e3.gif

 

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4 hours ago, nidhar.ram said:

Alright, It was the opening match week of the season and to be honest, I was a little nervous going into this match against Bilbao who always bring their A game against strong opponents,

It is half time at Metropolitano and this is where we are. Just WoW.. 

image.png.4b9039b1c7577e3a4befbbd75f900eee.png

All goals from open play. Quick passing triangles, pulling the opposition to one flank and unlocking the other. One of the goals shown below.

@04texag - I did tweak TI's ever so slightly and toned down the mentality to Attacking. I also moved AP(A) to forward strata and played him as TQ.  

My new signing Everton Cebolinha from SLB has certainly lit up the half.

Correa_goal.gif.55795de86b446f927566da05b2f360e3.gif

 

What TI's did you tweak?

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, nidhar.ram said:

Alright, It was the opening match week of the season and to be honest, I was a little nervous going into this match against Bilbao who always bring their A game against strong opponents,

It is half time at Metropolitano and this is where we are. Just WoW.. 

image.png.4b9039b1c7577e3a4befbbd75f900eee.png

All goals from open play. Quick passing triangles, pulling the opposition to one flank and unlocking the other. One of the goals shown below.

@04texag - I did tweak TI's ever so slightly and toned down the mentality to Attacking. I also moved AP(A) to forward strata and played him as TQ.  

My new signing Everton Cebolinha from SLB has certainly lit up the half.

Correa_goal.gif.55795de86b446f927566da05b2f360e3.gif

 

Great start! Where is Everton playing, AMR?

The Treq up top can work well, but it never had the dynamism for me that the AP-A did, both creating and scoring. 

Is this starting a new save or continuing?

Edited by 04texag
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25 minutes ago, 04texag said:

Great start! Where is Everton playing, AMR?

The Treq up top can work well, but it never had the dynamism for me that the AP-A did, both creating and scoring. 

Is this starting a new save or continuing?

Everton plays AML.

I am continuing the save and Treq is producing good results for me. I wanted a good back up for my midfield who is versatile to play both roles and wanted some cheap and found Naby Keita transfer listed and got him for 10m. He is loving the role and making good off the ball runs and driving forward with the ball in the final third. His attributes are perfect for this style of play.

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12 minutes ago, nidhar.ram said:

Everton plays AML.

I am continuing the save and Treq is producing good results for me. I wanted a good back up for my midfield who is versatile to play both roles and wanted some cheap and found Naby Keita transfer listed and got him for 10m. He is loving the role and making good off the ball runs and driving forward with the ball in the final third. His attributes are perfect for this style of play.

That's awesome. Ya, so some of the PPMs then that I trained in the first season might be helping out. Still have koke, llorente and saul starting midfield, lemar up top and correa out wide right?

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Yep, nothing has changed.

A bit annoyed with  Felix. I am training to improve his quickness but not seeing any outcome despite his good progress in training making himself hard to get a place in the forward line.

I am seeing a slight increase in his balance but nothing on teamwork & workrate.

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Just now, nidhar.ram said:

Yep, nothing has changed.

A bit annoyed with  Felix. I am training to improve his quickness but not seeing any outcome despite his good progress in training making himself hard to get a place in the forward line.

I am seeing a slight increase in his balance but nothing on teamwork & workrate.

To add, I am training the team mainly on keeping the ball ,chance creation/ conversion and counterpressing.

My first X1 is mostly set to half intensity ( normal intensity if there is only one match a week). Bench players are by default set to double intensity.   

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I've been working on the Pep Bayern tactics and hope to have the initial post done later today or tomorrow morning. I'm excited about this next one. 

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4 hours ago, 04texag said:

I've been working on the Pep Bayern tactics and hope to have the initial post done later today or tomorrow morning. I'm excited about this next one. 

I have been playing like "Current Pep" with a 4-2-3-1 Wide and utilizing a Trequarista in the #10 role played by De Bruyne to go a little off topic.

I will probably copy the Pep Bayern Tactic because that is what I am RPing my manager as being a failed Pep at Bayern Player from Hungary.

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3 questions here:

 1. does it really need to be so many PI's?

2. why not a reverse in the mc roles, with the cm turned into a mez?

3. Is the right CB without the stay wider instruction for a reason, like maybe to hijack balls from deep? Is it to achieve something on the build up and the dr positioning?

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40 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

3 questions here:

 1. does it really need to be so many PI's?

2. why not a reverse in the mc roles, with the cm turned into a mez?

3. Is the right CB without the stay wider instruction for a reason, like maybe to hijack balls from deep? Is it to achieve something on the build up and the dr positioning?

I assume for 3 - the HB already splits the defenders naturally in possession. LCB stays wider as cover for the LB who aggressively pushes upfield. As the RB is the conservative one, there is no need to 'cover' for him with stay wider?

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Some food for thought here as I continue my own save: 

Given Pep's Barcelona liked to stretch play and use the full width of the pitch, I wonder if focusing play down the flanks as the basis rather than the middle might be appropriate. The former allows you to stretch play and create space centrally, whilst the latter is doing opposite with the space being created on the flanks instead.

Having some joy with it so far and hasn't compromised central play as much as one might expect. 

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Good work, looking forward to see the other replications! The way I see it in 2010/11 Abidal would stay in line with the defence and create the back 3 and rarely venture forward, so Busquets no longer needs to drop between the CB’s. So I use the Abidal role as a FB(D) & the Busquets role as a standard DM(D). 

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12 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

3 questions here:

 1. does it really need to be so many PI's?

2. why not a reverse in the mc roles, with the cm turned into a mez?

3. Is the right CB without the stay wider instruction for a reason, like maybe to hijack balls from deep? Is it to achieve something on the build up and the dr positioning?

1. Which specific position? I think that there is definitely a need on some of them. Happy to expound further if you let me know which one.

2. I like the mez position generally, but I did not want the base tactic to have the iniesta role getting too wide, and with the winger told to say wide on that flank, there is already someone out there. One of the overload tactics did switch this up and use a Mez and the winger played narrowly.

3. So on the left (flipped tactic remember) our alves role pushes high, so the left CB stays wider to support that flank. Then busquests role drops deep to support middle. The right back is more conservative and doesn't need support from the right CB. 

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Posted (edited)

Bayern Pep Tactic

Ok, so to preface this, Bayern is the team I know the least about. So we are going to do an experiment here with this one. I'm going to put some foundational pieces out that I know, and then I'm going to ask for lots of good community feedback. Then we will see how things turn out at the end with full collaboration.

What I know

Pep experimented A LOT with tactics at Bayern. There were multiple shapes used, predominantly a spell with a 343 (with varying flavors) and 433, Flat 4141, and more I'm sure. But, as I was wanting to originally do this thread as three separate variations on the 433, we are going to use the flat 4141 for our base tactic. Within that base tactic, we are going for a lot of structure at the back and will play into a 235 shape, with the 23 (back 5) being very structured. 

Whereas at Barca Pep had a lights out midfield and messi to drop deep, Bayern had more strength in the wings. Thus, our approach play will look to go wider before cutting/crossing the ball back into the box. Ideally, we will have wingers staying out on the touch line, receiving the ball in 1v1's and looking to beat their man to a shot on goal, or to the byline for that cross to Lewandowski.

Bayern did not have to worry about the high press as much as at Barca, and thus the play out from the back looked a little different. The DM did not typically, but would if necessary, drop deep between the center backs. Thus, I'm moving the DM to an Anchor-D PRD. I'm using this specifically as I want solid structure in the back (the 235). 

The CBs would occasionally send the long ball, so with the right players, Boateng, Pavard, we will use BPDs.

The Full backs will both play fairly structured in our base tactic. I want them to act almost like IWBS, tucking in on either side of the DM to create the  three in the midfield of the 235. I am using my favorite FB-AU. Our team mentality is cautious, thus the AU duty players will be on cautious mentality. Even with hold position, on any higher mentality, they simply will not remain in the midfield and always push too high.

The midfield, I'm using an AP on the left, and a Mezzala on the right

The wingers will be wide midfielders, as they are great roles that can be highly customized. I might occasionally use a winger on the left for attacking variation. But my right WM has stays wide, cuts into box. The left has stays wide, cross from byline and cross more often.

Lewandowski needs to participate in build up play but also be a main scoring threat, thus I'm using the CF-A. 

image.png.75b09f660bc36474ad8c6aebe4475cab.png

So far, this creates the 235 very well. We are not too vulnerable with the great defensive structure, but sometimes our attack is a little too stale. I have not solved for this yet. Also, Muller is not crushing it like I really hoped he would.

Player transfers

Within the first two weeks in preseason both Douglas Costa and Leroy Sane got injured for at least a month each. Bayern had 70 mm transfer budget and the board wanted me to spend it. My first signing was to fill in for the injury warriors, Florian Thuavin. I think he fits very nicely what I want out of this position. Including PPMs

image.thumb.png.a4d9e76073bb927a9148445d927195cb.png

 

Then Modric got transfer listed for 5 million, so I picked him up, really just because I have never gotten a chance to manage him.

 

Initial Results

The tactic has been great some games, and stale others. So, I really want you guys to help me from here. 

image.png.86e710cfd61f1d2d1ebf9eade3137857.png

Please post your ideas and let's build it great!

 

Edited by 04texag
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Definitely the hardest of the three teams to replicate as the shape of the team and roles used changed so often - This was when Guardiola was at his most experimental, helped by how dominant Bayern were domestically.

I'd say the possession and build up was a little bit more mechanical/structured and careful than the Barca side - would be unsure how best to achieve that until I experimented myself, but factors could be the tempo, mentality, or the expressive TI - and as said definitely far more influence from the wide players who were much more direct.

I know you're going for the structure of the team and getting that successful but I think it might be helpful if you offered up which players (and their roles) from that side you're trying to emulate @04texag to get some specific behaviours. For starters I wouldn't personally say that Muller was a MEZ - from what I recall he either played his free (raumdeuter) role from the right or when central he played off the No.9 in a more 4-2-3-1 shape. 

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Wasn't it at Bayern where Pep really introduced Inverted Wingbacks to create his 2-3-5 shape in order to control transitions? So with that being said maybe something like:

CF (S) 

W (A) - Mez (S) - Mez (S) - W (A)

DLP (D) - 

IWB (D) - CD (D) - CD (D) - IWB (D)

SK (S)

Positive / Play Out of Defence / Counter Press / Higher Defensive Line, Higher LoE & More Urgent

I went with IWB on Defend because my experience of them on Support is they still go marauding forward & you really want them to create that 2-3 basis for the formation. 

I would say across all three teams / styles, some Tis (if not all) would remain the same because Guardiola is very fixed in his principles & how he wants the game to be played. 

Your starting XI with the current Bayern team would maybe be: 

Lewandowski

Sane - Goretzka - Muller - Gnabry

Kimmich

Davies - Alaba - Sule (?) - Pavard

Neuer

With the option to play Sane & Gnabry on the opposite sides. 

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One last Barcelona system post for me. I've gone on to embrace the strikerless system as well. Although based on my own experiences with the role in other systems, and much like Ozil did in his thread years ago, I've opted for a shadow striker w/ roam from position. Now things have finally clicked.

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PIs: SS has Roam. The two wide forwards have stay wider. CM(Su) has Take More Risks, Move Into Channels and Get Further Forward. LCB has stay wider. FB(Su) also has stay wider.

As said, things are now clicking - my Messi player in particular is starting to score and create for fun. We've notched up our record high scoring game so far with this dismantling of relegation embattled Villareal.

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Good luck with the Bayern system!

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On 04/01/2021 at 14:49, 04texag said:

Save 1 - Final Season Review - Barca Tactic

First, I must admit that I got a little complacent and simmed a majority of the second half of this season. Once I felt I had the tactic down to how I wanted it to play, I just let the team do their thing. Unfortunately, the ass. man did not use my preferred lineup a majority of the time, but we still had some amazing results.

Atleti do the double - Winning La Liga and the Spanish Cup

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We had a large 7 point lead in march that fizzled away with some weird sim losses, but very happy with winning the league. 

In the Champions League, we drew Liverpool in the quarter finals. We tied them 1-1 in the first leg away, then lost 2-1 in ET at home. It was a very close competition, but all in all I'm not too upset at losing to Liverpool, a touch match up for anyone.

End of season analyst report

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Final Tactic - I'm very happy with how this ended up. I may try playing a few more games with my Lazio squad, as this was a very fun and exciting brand of football. It holds true to positional play rules, and so far has been one of the best at being structured in the back and fluid in the front. There is always going to be discussions about how to really mimic that 2010/2011 Barca squad, and FM I think limits the creativity and fluidity of tactics to make it near impossible. But to me, this was as close as I've gotten with trying many times over the last 3 years.

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Players

Thomas Lemar - Messi Role

Lemar ended the season as our number one choice for the Messi Role, as an AP-A. He offered great build up play, an attacking threat, and good creativity. His stats backed this up.

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Yannick Carrasco - Pedro role

What a surprising season for Yannick. He played lights out when he wasn't hurt, putting in 32 goals and 13 assists across all competitions! He was not pegged by me to be a starter, but proved too good not to play.

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Angel Correa/Luis Suarez - Villa role

These two split time here. Suarez played a much better second half of the season than Correa and turned it on big late. He also surprised with the number of assists. Correa had 10 goals and 4 assists. Below is Suarez:

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Saul - Iniesta role

Saul at times played brilliantly, playing very expansive football. I think he could have better seasons then this stat wise, but overall performed well. 

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Koke - Xavi role

Hotly contested role, but he played well and I liked the way he worked. More assists and less goals than Saul. I wish you could change the stats screen here to show key passes and chances created. He had 83 key passes (Lemar had team best with 91).

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Renan Lodi - Alves role

He played an awful first third of the season. Once we settled on the FB-au PRD, he turned it on. He still I think could have done better, and someone else certainly could who has better mentals. Lodi's technicals and physicals are great, but his mentals are far from what I would want out of a total footballer. I think upgrading this player would be a huge plus for a long term save with this.

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Long term save info

If someone were to keep managing Atleti, here are some thoughts for what I would do.

  • Upgrade Defense 
  • Lodi is close but not there as discussed, need a better mentals player for total football
  • Right back is a weak spot, need someone who is good defensively, good at recycling possession, crossing isn't important
  • Upgrade 1 CB, need a proper BPD attribute wise, as there is no Pique on this squad. 
  • Keep the midfield diamond (Llorente, Koke, Saul, Lemar)

For financial information, we only sold on Diego Costa at start of season. The year 2 starting payroll is 231 mm leaving us 21 mm room, and 17.22mm transfer budget (sorry in US dollars). There is room here to make some of the above moves, with getting rid or some high salary players as well.

Player PPM thoughts

To get the most out of some of these players, there has been discussion around certain PPM's that will really help. I believe this remains true post season 1 for the midfield maestros, the messi role, the two wing players, as well as the Alves role. There can certainly be a lot of differing thoughts here, and certainly more or less could always work, but I think these at a minimum would be helpful to have for these roles.

Messi Role - Comes deep to get ball, gets into opposition area, plays one twos, runs with ball often

Iniesta Role - Plays One twos, runs with ball often, Tries killer balls often

Xavi role - Dictates tempo, , comes deep to get ball, possibly also plays one twos (wasn't able to get this trained and tested, if you add this can change from RPM to DLP)

Busquets role - Comes deep to get ball, Likes to switch ball to wide areas

Both WIngers - Cuts inside from respective wings

Alves role - Plays one-twos, gets forward whenever possible, runs with ball down (assigned) flank

 

 

Final Pep Barca 2011 Strikerless.fmf 44.37 kB · 68 downloads

After a run of 5 games without a win, my Premier league new boys Reading were facing the mighty Man Utd (top by 10 points at Christmas and unbeaten). Press conference asked me how I plan to cope and I saw an option about tactical surprises. I clicked it and did the cardinal sin of 'plug and play' with this strikerless tactic.

I think the AI was baffled because we managed to win 2-1 lol. Surprising how well positioned everyone was at the back. 

We went back to struggling afterwards so it's certainly not a tactic for the underdog and we just dont have the players for a short passing game but I thought I'd share that little success 👌

Looking forward to the next tactic! 

Edited by Plugpin
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14 hours ago, 04texag said:

Bayern Pep Tactic

Ok, so to preface this, Bayern is the team I know the least about. So we are going to do an experiment here with this one. I'm going to put some foundational pieces out that I know, and then I'm going to ask for lots of good community feedback. Then we will see how things turn out at the end with full collaboration.

What I know

Pep experimented A LOT with tactics at Bayern. There were multiple shapes used, predominantly a spell with a 343 (with varying flavors) and 433, Flat 4141, and more I'm sure. But, as I was wanting to originally do this thread as three separate variations on the 433, we are going to use the flat 4141 for our base tactic. Within that base tactic, we are going for a lot of structure at the back and will play into a 235 shape, with the 23 (back 5) being very structured. 

Whereas at Barca Pep had a lights out midfield and messi to drop deep, Bayern had more strength in the wings. Thus, our approach play will look to go wider before cutting/crossing the ball back into the box. Ideally, we will have wingers staying out on the touch line, receiving the ball in 1v1's and looking to beat their man to a shot on goal, or to the byline for that cross to Lewandowski.

Bayern did not have to worry about the high press as much as at Barca, and thus the play out from the back looked a little different. The DM did not typically, but would if necessary, drop deep between the center backs. Thus, I'm moving the DM to an Anchor-D PRD. I'm using this specifically as I want solid structure in the back (the 235). 

The CBs would occasionally send the long ball, so with the right players, Boateng, Pavard, we will use BPDs.

The Full backs will both play fairly structured in our base tactic. I want them to act almost like IWBS, tucking in on either side of the DM to create the  three in the midfield of the 235. I am using my favorite FB-AU. Our team mentality is cautious, thus the AU duty players will be on cautious mentality. Even with hold position, on any higher mentality, they simply will not remain in the midfield and always push too high.

The midfield, I'm using an AP on the left, and a Mezzala on the right

The wingers will be wide midfielders, as they are great roles that can be highly customized. I might occasionally use a winger on the left for attacking variation. But my right WM has stays wide, cuts into box. The left has stays wide, cross from byline and cross more often.

Lewandowski needs to participate in build up play but also be a main scoring threat, thus I'm using the CF-A. 

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So far, this creates the 235 very well. We are not too vulnerable with the great defensive structure, but sometimes our attack is a little too stale. I have not solved for this yet. Also, Muller is not crushing it like I really hoped he would.

Player transfers

Within the first two weeks in preseason both Douglas Costa and Leroy Sane got injured for at least a month each. Bayern had 70 mm transfer budget and the board wanted me to spend it. My first signing was to fill in for the injury warriors, Florian Thuavin. I think he fits very nicely what I want out of this position. Including PPMs

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Then Modric got transfer listed for 5 million, so I picked him up, really just because I have never gotten a chance to manage him.

 

Initial Results

The tactic has been great some games, and stale others. So, I really want you guys to help me from here. 

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Please post your ideas and let's build it great!

 

Recently read this article (https://thesefootballtimes.co/2017/03/31/thomas-muller-the-first-and-possible-last-ramdeuter/) on Thomas Muller's role within the system after looking for what a Raumdeuter actually was. Has some input on the Bayern tactics of that period as well so might be an interesting read. 

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10 minutes ago, julesjoosten said:

Recently read this article (https://thesefootballtimes.co/2017/03/31/thomas-muller-the-first-and-possible-last-ramdeuter/) on Thomas Muller's role within the system after looking for what a Raumdeuter actually was. Has some input on the Bayern tactics of that period as well so might be an interesting read. 

Good find, thanks!

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I really want to use Muller as a Raumdeuter since it was made after him. Looking through more articles, pep experimented a lot with getting the most out of his players, and the positional play 433 wasn't doing that. In 2015/2016 he utilized what looks to me like an assymetrical 3142, with Lewandowski and Muller the two attacking players up top. But Muller was typically behind and to the right. 

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I am thinking of a 3142 but playing Muller as a Raumdeuter, with the right winger behind him a defensive winger to not crowd Muller. I might test this out some today.

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Ok so if we're talking about incorporating Muller, as I said in my previous post he usually played either from the right hand side or as a second striker.

In terms of how this was deployed I'm going to take the mid point of Pep's reign, so say 2015ish, because at this point the formations hadn't gone ultra fluid, asymmetrical back three/four hybrids etc, and so are probably easier to replicate.

(Note: I've selected the players of the time who I interpret best fit the roles and/or were the ones used, during this time the likes of Robben, Thiago, Ribery were.... shock horror :lol:.... often out injured)

 

Muller from the right (4-3-3)

 

Spoiler

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In this one Lahm played a bit wider to cover the right hand side. Apart from that all fairly easy to interpret.

 

 

Muller through the centre (4-2-3-1)

 

Spoiler

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In this shape it was more of a double pivot to maintain the 5-5 split. The left back played very high, the left winger came inside between the lines and to 're-add' the extra man in the centre of the park and maintain superiority. All perfectly doable on modern FM's.

Edited by mp_87
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1 minute ago, mp_87 said:

Ok so if we're talking about incorporating Muller, as I said in my previous post he usually played either from the right hand side or as a second striker.

In terms of how this was deployed I'm going to take the mid point of Pep's reign, so say 2015ish, because at this point the formations hadn't gone ultra fluid, asymmetrical back three/four hybrids etc, and so are probably easier to replicate.

(Note: I've selected the players of the time who I interpret best fit the roles and/or were the ones used, during this time the likes of Robben, Thiago, Ribery were.... shock horror :lol:.... often out injured)

 

Muller from the right (4-3-3)

 

  Hide contents

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Muller through the centre (4-2-3-1)

 

  Hide contents

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I like these as well. 

Pep would often change his tactic/shape based on who he was facing, whether a 442, 4231, 451 etc.

I think it would make sense to try to have a few different of these ideas to be able to try out, then depending on who you do a long term save with and your players, you use what makes the most sense to get the most out of your player pool and best players.

 

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First game with the new 3142 tactic is away at Dortmund, so not a great first game for a tactical test, but so far I'm really liking some of the movements.

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Here is my initial 3142 tactic. So far it has good movement and penetration. The RMD moves up nicely because the other roles around him do not push into his space, and at times it looks like a conventional 3142. The Winger on the left has good driving runs and crosses/pull backs to both Lewandowski and Muller. 

When this isn't working as well, I have tried the same tactic but moving Muller to the AMCR as an SS-A. That has done well too.

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1 hour ago, Luizinho said:

@04texag Great thread

 

Whats the reasoning for using Fullbacks over Wingbacks? (I assume it's because Wingbacks are too aggressive in possession)

Thanks!

Yes, Wingbacks will get much too far forward too early. The fullbacks will still join the attack when it's really progressed, but be more involved deeper for recycling possession.

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Em 02/01/2021 em 21:16, 04texag disse:

I used the FM training calculator spreadsheet to come up with schedules that both worked match prep and the attributes I wanted to target for total football/positional play. Here are senior schedules

 

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And youth schedules with heavier physical emphasis.

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I don't know if this affects on FM, but for some realism sake I'm going to say this and because I see a lot of people doing this schedules and talking about being very close to reality, and I guarantee they don't know **** about it. You don't do extreme physical demanding days right after the rest day or close to the last game, unless you want to kill players. You can read from Oscar Tojo to Gary Walker (used to work at United, idk if it's still the case) or other training/physio specialist and everyone of them will say that you want the most demanding day at the middle of the week and work the physical load throughout the week like a parable. 

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