Turning an idea into a tactic

[tommysvr]

I’ve played FM for many, many years but it’s usually just putting the best players on the pitch and things will work them out (or I’ll give up and start a new game).

It’s seemingly getting hard to just plug-and-play, so I wanted some assistance in getting a tactic together for how I want to play.

I’m Tottenham, just starting out so this is how I want to play in a 4-3-3.

———

GK: Lloris - sweeper keeper or not, don’t really mind

Fullbacks: I want attacking full backs, to get high and wide when we have the ball

Centre backs: Comfortable on the ball

DM: Hjoberg to start, but I’d like to sign Declan Rice or Florentino Luis to play this role. I want someone who sits and cleans things up. Someone who can drop in as a 3rd CB when the full backs bomb on.

CM: I like the idea of a DLP and BBM (to start, Ndombele and Sissoko) but open to ideas.

IF: Bale on the right and Son on the left as inside forwards - I want these guys to get in on the goals.

FW: Kane - how do I get the most out of him. Surely should be hitting 25 goals each season.

———

I want to play a high-press, fast tempo game. Win the ball back and we immediately spring into attack. Can anyone help me achieve something like this? Appreciate your thoughts and tips.

[Murcon17]

I'd say it's probably unrealistic if you want all of your front three to go and score, there's just not that many goals to go around in a season and at least one has to sacrifice being a primary goal threat for link-up play and creating, see Firmino in Liverpool for example. From the player profiles of Spurs I'd say Son should be mainly focused on scoring so an IF(A) while with Kane you could look at CF(A) for example, so that he gets both to scoring and assisting and then have your Bale or your RW be an IW(S) or an AP(S) so cutting inside earlier and trying to thread crosses or through balls and take the occasional longshot while opening up an easy overlap for the fullback.

With the fullbacks supposed to be overlapping and pushing up could go for a backline of WB(S)-CD-BDP-WB(S) so that the wingbacks will get up the field and support build-up while also looking for the overlap but not pushing so aggressively that they can't be reached or help build-up play. And with both fullbacks going forward wide, you should probably look at a midfield three akin to what Liverpool generally used the last few years with Wijnaldum, Henderson and Fabinho all three mainly staying back and not breaking into the final third or pushing up aggressively but rather being ball recyclers and covering the fullbacks pushing high. Could go with a HB(D) or A(D) for the DM and then a combo of CM(S) and a BWM(S) to support the attack but also providing stability and being combative in the centre.

[tommysvr]

Thanks for the reply! I’ve implemented some of the things you suggested, and things have gone ok so far. The most frustrating thing for me so far is the inconsistency of the front 3 (Son as IF-(A) is particularly frustrating) and the full backs. The full backs are averaging 6.75 and producing no assists. In the screenshot you can see the last 5 matches I have no one playing well. Despite this, we’ve won 3 (2 last minute wins from penalties and one where Kane scored 5 in a 5-0 win), drawn 1 and lost 1 (2-0 loss to Wolves away, where we had 1 shot at goal.)

Would appreciate any ideas on improving these points!

[sporadicsmiles]

The first thing I would do is get rid of counter. It is nice to use when you are actively looking to play direct football, but it does not seem like you want to do this given you have play out of defence. It just makes people be direct too often and you can struggle to stamp your authority on the game with this. I typically use it these days when I am looking to soak up pressure and defend against better teams where I will not win a possession battle and cannot afford to leave gaps at the back when defending. 

The overlap will also tend to make the wide players more defensive than they would otherwise be. Or rather they will look to wait for the WB to overlap them. This is probably not what you want to happen, so try to remove that and see what happens. You can try to set the right or left back to an attack duty to compensate. There are good arguments for either, so try it out either way around. I often play with a FB(A) and IF(A) on the same side as the DLP in this formation, so although it looks risky, it can work nicely. I tend to avoid having both FBs on attack unless I am expecting to dominate against a long ball team with a single striker (2CBs + DMC can deal with that). 

What is pass into space for? Who are you looking to get in behind to chase balls? 

And the striker in a formation where you want the wingers to score has to be mainly focused on creating space for the players around him. He will still score goals by the very nature of being a striker and a good striker. But to get the wide players scoring, he needs to disrupt the shape of the defence. Typically I use a PF(S) or a DLF(S) here, so he drops off into space. Either a defender follows him and creates space, or does not and the striker has time on the ball to link play. I will often see him link play and then get into the box to try to score himself. 

Also be aware that when you come up against a 2DMC formation, this tactic will always struggle. You want to get runners either through the centre or from wide to the centre, and that is really inhibited by 2 DMCs. The same applies in a lesser manner to 3 CB systems. In these cases you want to focus overloads in a wide area to drag players from the centre to the flanks, and then you can try to exploit the centre yourself. If that makes sense. 

[plcarlos]

IMHO - Play out of Defence and Instructing Hugo to pass to FB\CB is overkill. Personally I'd revmove the play out of defence. This would allow Toby to play the long balls he has a trait, but keep's Hugo's Poor passing in check.

I've played Hugo as a SK-D due to his dsitribution. Prioitise a replacemant for him.

Kane - Maybe drop him to a CF-S or a DLF-S\A? In that middle part of the pitch, he's going to be up against the defenders, Son will be trying to get to a similar space, and Bale as the only creator of the 3, which is compaounded by Bale's poor mentals in the game.

I'd question the Prevent short GK distribution using a 4-3-3 - You'll be outnumberd for one, and if they can't play out of defence, where is the space you are looking to pass into? I've ommitted a few more things, as they would conflict with your goal of high pressing.

Defensively, Toby in a high line is a bit of a risk with the WB pushing up.

As I've never used the overlap PI, i'm not sure on that one. I do know that Regulion and Doherty got forward enough for me without it... Mind you, I'm playing a totally different approach, 3 blank slate template as tacitcs, a massivley changed team (3 seasons in, and I've Sold a LOT ), and formation\goal than you.

 

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, tommysvr said:

Would appreciate any ideas on improving these points!

You opted for gegengpress, which is the extreme variant of fast attacking football. Now, if you want such style of football, I am not sure telling the fullbacks to overlap is the best idea. Because you want to move the ball forward to the final third as quickly as possible (extremely high tempo + pass into space), which probably does not give your fullbacks enough time to make that overlapping run most of the time, while at the same time reducing the mentalities of your wingers with no justifiable reason. 

Roles and duties don't look bad overall, which does not mean that a couple of small tweaks could not help to make it even better. But for now at least, let's leave them as they are.

I am reluctant to comment on the rest of your tactic, especially out-of-possession TIs, simply because I never play gegenpress or any style that involves such an aggressive manner of defending. I prefer to do it in a more sensible fashion instead. 

[tommysvr]

Thanks for all of your replies. I’ve tired to implement various things, trialling over the course of a few matches. This squad is too good for these types of performances, but I just cannot get anything going and I am currently sitting 6th, 14 points off the top. Kane and Son’s goal numbers look good, but completely skewed by some 5, 4 and 3 goal matches.

This is just the default gegenpress with the AM changed to a DM. Surely a preset tactic should work with 3 of the best players in the world?

Edited December 27, 2020 by tommysvr

[Justified]

2 hours ago, tommysvr said:

Surely a preset tactic should work with 3 of the best players in the world?

Could not be further from the truth. The fact is pre-sets are guides of roles and instructions which you can use and should not be taken as gospel. Surely you're not naïve to think they'd include tactics in the game that make you win all your matches?  

Tbh you say you've taken onboard some of the advice given, which you did initially, but now you've gone to a completely unbalanced tactic.

[tommysvr]

1 hour ago, Justified said:

Could not be further from the truth. The fact is pre-sets are guides of roles and instructions which you can use and should not be taken as gospel. Surely you're not naïve to think they'd include tactics in the game that make you win all your matches?  

Tbh you say you've taken onboard some of the advice given, which you did initially, but now you've gone to a completely unbalanced tactic.

How is it unbalanced? From looking at it, it’s almost the literal definition of balance, so clearly I’m missing something about Football Manager.

I (obviously) don’t expect to win every match - I’m not a moron. The funny thing is, I was winning more than I was losing, but 90% of the squad averages less than 7. How does that work?

Edited December 27, 2020 by tommysvr

[Murcon17]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb tommysvr:

How is it unbalanced? From looking at it, it’s almost the literal definition of balance, so clearly I’m missing something about Football Manager.

I (obviously) don’t expect to win every match - I’m not a moron. The funny thing is, I was winning more than I was losing, but 90% of the squad averages less than 7. How does that work?

It's unbalanced in the sense that all your attackers "only" attack and then you have the wingbacks aggressively bombing down the flanks and making runs into space rather than participating in build-up and being played into space due to their attack duties, so pretty much the whole build-up from the back to the penalty box will mainly fall onto your CBs and the three midfielders and occasionally Kane if he drops deep enough. And for the match ratings I'm actually not completely sure to be honest what would qualify as a good rating, but I'd say if you win a game by less than 2 goals most of the time, your players will have ratings in the 6.7-6.9 range. So personally I don't consider those bad as a match rating, but above average. Unless you win by a landslide or the player scored or assisted a goal, they don't break into the 7.x + ratings all that often for me.

One change to help balance the build-up play for example would be to change the left flank as IF(A) and WB(S) to have the left back be available as an option out wide and then on the right could go with WB(A) and an IW(S), which will make the RW be more likely to be available as a passing option while the right back will aggressively attack the space. Could also try dropping the tempo down one notch to give your players more time to get up the field and into positions available for a pass. Then depending on how well your press works could think about removing the Prevent short GK distribution, which afaik is only really suitable for systems with 2 men up top that can mark out the centerbacks so either 4-2-3-1 or 2 striker systems. In a 4-3-3 you cannot cover all passing options for the GK, one of the back 4 will be free and that may circumvent your press. But I'm not the most knowledgeable when it comes to making high-tempo systems work, i prefer a more patient possession style, so others may have better pointers.

Edit: And overall it would help to know what you think isn't working in more detail besides matches won and lost. For example when you lose do you lose because you're open to counter-attacks or because your press is getting beaten routinely? Are you not creating enough chances or are you only creating low quality chances, i.e. low xG shots? Are your players unable to keep possession of the ball due to a lack of passing options or do they turn over possession through high risk passes into space that don't connect? Easier to give you more detailed feedback concerning roles and duties etc., when it's clear in what phases the tactic isn't working well.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Murcon17

[plcarlos]

Preset tacticts are quite poor, but reagrdless, IMHO whatever you want to do should always come down to the players you have, and if they are suited for it. As a player who manages Spurs myself, we have the following intital squad issues:

SLOW defenders - Therefore, we are not suited to a high line intially.

Winks\Ndombele have poor natural fitness, making the need to rotate high in a high tempo system, this interupts cohesion etc

Ageing Keepers, who need replacing

High Pressing up top? Look at Son's Aggression\Bravey, and Bale's Teamwork\Workrate..

It depends on what you are looking for, but maybe you should break this down peice by piece - What's not working in Defence, Transition, Attack?

Are all 3 attackers stood on the 18 yard line? Are you getting hit on the counter? Is that via the flanks? Are your players slow getting the ball forward?

Back to preset tactictcs, you have conflicting instructions:

Play out of Defence is basically the opposite to counter, and as you have this, wehn you do get to counter, teams will be back in place.

High LOE, Prevent short GK Distribution is basically an item that can conflict with pass into space - The tactic tries to ping teams back so where is the space!?

[Justified]

6 hours ago, tommysvr said:

How is it unbalanced? From looking at it, it’s almost the literal definition of balance, so clearly I’m missing something about Football Manager.

I (obviously) don’t expect to win every match - I’m not a moron. The funny thing is, I was winning more than I was losing, but 90% of the squad averages less than 7. How does that work?

It's unbalanced because you're trying to play the match in the opponents half but with 3 attackers flooding the opposition box. Having three attackers on attack suits more defensive counter tactics as there is space to run into. In your tactic, there is none. Even just having the striker on a support role would make a difference as you then start to create space.

[Experienced Defender]

Your previous setup of roles and duties looked way better and more balanced than this new one (default gegen). So you have actually made it worse. 

In my previous comment, I already told you what was wrong with your tactic. And that was not the setup of roles and duties. So you actually changed the last thing you should have changed. 

[tommysvr]

36 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Your previous setup of roles and duties looked way better and more balanced than this new one (default gegen). So you have actually made it worse. 

In my previous comment, I already told you what was wrong with your tactic. And that was not the setup of roles and duties. So you actually changed the last thing you should have changed. 

I’m not posting tactics after one match, I’ve tried many, many things and literally nothing is working. Here’s the latest attempt where my full backs are still absolutely average and my L-IF (Son) does absolutely nothing. Same roles as the one you said looked ok, trying for a more patient build up.

[Experienced Defender]

25 minutes ago, tommysvr said:

I’m not posting tactics after one match, I’ve tried many, many things and literally nothing is working. Here’s the latest attempt where my full backs are still absolutely average and my L-IF (Son) does absolutely nothing. Same roles as the one you said looked ok, trying for a more patient build up

You have now gone to the opposite extreme in terms of in-possession TIs - from a gung-ho style such as gegenpress to slow and patient possession football. There is no need to make such a sweeping change at once.

And even if you want to completely change the style of play, you need to adapt the setup of roles and duties to that new set of instructions. Because now you have very possession-oriented TIs but coupled with a setup of roles and duties that is more suited for a faster style of play. Instructions always need to be compatible with roles and duties. 

Btw, if I managed the Spurs, I would not play either gegenpress (which I never play anyway) or slow possession football. Instead, my style of choice would be the so-called progressive possession football. That's a style of play that combines elements of possession football with a faster attacking style. Basically a hybrid between the two. 

[tommysvr]

Funny how this whole thread was caused by the player ratings bug in the game. Looks like the preset gegenpress + 3 world class players works after all!