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Hello fellow managers and merry Christmas!

I would like if someone could explain to me why am I struggling to score? I have problems with especially Kane who in 11 appearances didn't score a single goal.

I expected to play aggressive possession game with lower tempo so players could pass around the box and eventually either cross (I set my FB's to cross more often but seems like they are just rather passing to the player in the edge of the box).

In general I considered this a well balanced tactic, but seems like it just doesn't work. I also had 7 draws and 5 of them were 0-0.

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Lose the Work ball in the box and Dribble less TI. That way you don't over-complicate your attacks.

 

The way your set your wide players don't have much options if you're telling them not to try to dribble past their opponent and not to try to cross. They'll end up slowing your attacks (even more with lower tempo also set) trying to play it into the box where Kane is probably well marked already by then. 

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37 minutes ago, Terrixfull said:

Yes, I have Sissoko on "Tackle harder" and "Take more risks" and DL on "Cut inside" and "Cross more often".

You have to commit more in attack if you need more goals 😄

I don’t know how you want your team to score but , here is what I would do 

 

1.Your striker change him as TQ, ask him to hold up the ball and play more direct. I am guessing you want to play like spurs in real life ?

 

2. change your nr 10 to a more attacking role. If you want to keep him as AP change him to attack duty. 
 

3.ask your inside forward to roam more so you get some more movement 

 

4. maybe don’t ask Sissoko to take more chances. You have players in front with better vision and passing to that? He won’t make much happen with his passing. 
 

5. I am a big fan of carriero, so buy changing høibjerg to carriero you can push your right back higher up the field. 
 

6. why do you want your dl to cut more inside? Take it away and maybe ask him to sit smaller in the field when you have the ball. And if you ask him to cut inside maybe that’s why you don’t get enough crosses 

 

7.take away maybe dribble less :)

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10 hours ago, Nima2708 said:

You have to commit more in attack if you need more goals 😄

I don’t know how you want your team to score but , here is what I would do 

 

1.Your striker change him as TQ, ask him to hold up the ball and play more direct. I am guessing you want to play like spurs in real life ?

 

2. change your nr 10 to a more attacking role. If you want to keep him as AP change him to attack duty. 
 

3.ask your inside forward to roam more so you get some more movement 

 

4. maybe don’t ask Sissoko to take more chances. You have players in front with better vision and passing to that? He won’t make much happen with his passing. 
 

5. I am a big fan of carriero, so buy changing høibjerg to carriero you can push your right back higher up the field. 
 

6. why do you want your dl to cut more inside? Take it away and maybe ask him to sit smaller in the field when you have the ball. And if you ask him to cut inside maybe that’s why you don’t get enough crosses 

 

7.take away maybe dribble less :)

Well my original idea was to recreate Vertical Tiki-Taka. Basically to have a short passing game through the middle with aggressive pressing. I wanted Kane to be my main goalscorer and to have him provide assists. He assists here and then but usually not.

Dribble less I added so players could focus on passing first instead of dribbling.

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18 minutes ago, Terrixfull said:

Well my original idea was to recreate Vertical Tiki-Taka. Basically to have a short passing game through the middle with aggressive pressing. I wanted Kane to be my main goalscorer and to have him provide assists. He assists here and then but usually not.

Dribble less I added so players could focus on passing first instead of dribbling.

I see, use kane as tq:) . Dribble less is last 1/3 of the field. It’s more for teams with bad dribbling. 
That is why you don’t score , players don’t commit last 3rd of the field 

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Did you sell Alli?

I line up 4-2-3-1 as Spurs with Son as left IW (At), Alli as SS (At) and Bergwijn as right W (S). Kane is obviously up front as either AF (A) or poacher (A)

In midfield I have Lo Celsco as AP (S) and Dier or Holjberg as BWM (D).

Similar sort of TI to yours although I have no transitional instructions as I leave it up to them whether or not to counter or retain possession. 

How far are you into your season? I am looking for a decent away tactic against the top 4 sides 

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Here are major issues in your tactic (IMHO):

- insufficient wide support for the IF on the left, because FB on support is a bit too conservative for that (especially if you want to play control or possession-based football, as you said)

- if you want the AMC on support duty (whether as a playmaker or ordinary AM), then both CMs should be ideally played in holding roles, so as to allow him as much space as possible to dictate play (alternatively, one CM might be a defensive-minded runner, e.g. BWM on support or carrilero)

- I understand that you want to control possession, but at the same time fear that you've created a sort of possession overkill in terms of in-possession TIs, which can overcomplicate play and make you pretty sterile + allowing too much time to the opposition to consolidate defense (here I am primarily referring to low tempo and WBiB) 

- I also don't think that you need the Dribble less TI (not least because the Spurs have a lot of players who are good on the ball, so there is no reason to deprive yourself of one of your team's obvious strengths

From a defensive perspective, more urgent pressing could backfire, because you play in a top-heavy system without a DM while having less than optimal compactness (the distance between DL and LOE). If you want to defend aggressively, then better makes sure you are compact when defending. 

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3 hours ago, L053R said:

Did you sell Alli?

I line up 4-2-3-1 as Spurs with Son as left IW (At), Alli as SS (At) and Bergwijn as right W (S). Kane is obviously up front as either AF (A) or poacher (A)

In midfield I have Lo Celsco as AP (S) and Dier or Holjberg as BWM (D).

Similar sort of TI to yours although I have no transitional instructions as I leave it up to them whether or not to counter or retain possession. 

How far are you into your season? I am looking for a decent away tactic against the top 4 sides 

I did not sell him I just didn't use him for my next match. 

 

I am in late December and I found myself doing decent against top 4 away using 5-3-2 with three CB's and 2 WB's. Defensive direct counter-attacking football. Beaten Liverpool 1-0 but lost against City 2-0, but both goals from set-pieces.

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46 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Here are major issues in your tactic (IMHO):

- insufficient wide support for the IF on the left, because FB on support is a bit too conservative for that (especially if you want to play control or possession-based football, as you said)

- if you want the AMC on support duty (whether as a playmaker or ordinary AM), then both CMs should be ideally played in holding roles, so as to allow him as much space as possible to dictate play (alternatively, one CM might be a defensive-minded runner, e.g. BWM on support or carrilero)

- I understand that you want to control possession, but at the same time fear that you've created a sort of possession overkill in terms of in-possession TIs, which can overcomplicate play and make you pretty sterile + allowing too much time to the opposition to consolidate defense (here I am primarily referring to low tempo and WBiB) 

- I also don't think that you need the Dribble less TI (not least because the Spurs have a lot of players who are good on the ball, so there is no reason to deprive yourself of one of your team's obvious strengths

From a defensive perspective, more urgent pressing could backfire, because you play in a top-heavy system without a DM while having less than optimal compactness (the distance between DL and LOE). If you want to defend aggressively, then better makes sure you are compact when defending. 

- Regarding your 1st and last point, does adding "Get further forward" combined with "Cross from byline" on FBs increase the support effect and help with the defensive area or should I just use FBa? But then I have a direct partnership on the left side with two players sitting in the same area. Should I then put my DL also as WB(s)?

- So if I understand I should set roles for the players behind my AMC (if he is AP or AM) to stay behind him? So I should change my roles behind my AMC into Car(s) as MCL and CM(d) as MCR?

If I may ask also: If I would switch my AMC to SS for instance Mezzala on support duty would be helpful then because he would make runs with him infront of the ST?

- I set my tempo to lower alongside WBiB to lower my risk in possession, but as you mentioned when I am playing with Spurs removing "Dribble less" and "WBiB" but keeping lower tempo should get me more crosses and runs in my final third. I presume if I find myself struggling to get shots then increasing my tempo would help?

 

- How should I organize my defence to satisfy the need for more urgent pressing? Pushing my DL more forward and that's it or would it be wiser to place my AMC on the DM role and play like this:

                          DLF(a)

IF(a)                                              IF(S)

               DLP(s)         BBM(s)

                          DM(d) 

WB(s)      CD(d)        BPD(d)        WB(S)

                           SK(s)

 

- Question: Would it be more balanced in terms of possession oriented system where my midfield is supplying balls to my wide players and then to my striker (and vice versa) to have my front CM's as the ones written or to switch my DLP(s) into BWM(s)?

Edited by Terrixfull
Changed my midfield roles
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2 hours ago, Terrixfull said:

- Regarding your 1st and last point, does adding "Get further forward" combined with "Cross from byline" on FBs increase the support effect and help with the defensive area or should I just use FBa? But then I have a direct partnership on the left side with two players sitting in the same area. Should I then put my DL also as WB(s)?

- So if I understand I should set roles for the players behind my AMC (if he is AP or AM) to stay behind him? So I should change my roles behind my AMC into Car(s) as MCL and CM(d) as MCR?

If I may ask also: If I would switch my AMC to SS for instance Mezzala on support duty would be helpful then because he would make runs with him infront of the ST?

- I set my tempo to lower alongside WBiB to lower my risk in possession, but as you mentioned when I am playing with Spurs removing "Dribble less" and "WBiB" but keeping lower tempo should get me more crosses and runs in my final third. I presume if I find myself struggling to get shots then increasing my tempo would help?

 

- How should I organize my defence to satisfy the need for more urgent pressing? Pushing my DL more forward and that's it or would it be wiser to place my AMC on the DM role and play like this:

                          DLF(a)

IF(a)                                              IF(S)

               DLP(s)         BBM(s)

                          DM(d) 

WB(s)      CD(d)        BPD(d)        WB(S)

                           SK(s)

 

- Question: Would it be more balanced in terms of possession oriented system where my midfield is supplying balls to my wide players and then to my striker (and vice versa) to have my front CM's as the ones written or to switch my DLP(s) into BWM(s)?

So you’ve seen people’s advice, and what you took from this was you needed to change the formation and basically everything in one go? 

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2 hours ago, Terrixfull said:

Regarding your 1st and last point, does adding "Get further forward" combined with "Cross from byline" on FBs increase the support effect and help with the defensive area

It might help somewhat, but I fear not enough. Because each role has some underlying hard-coded behaviors that cannot be achieved by simply adding certain PIs manually. Anyway, you can try and see if and how it works. 

 

2 hours ago, Terrixfull said:

or should I just use FBa?

I would preferably use WB on support (or automatic duty), but would also change the left CM into a more holding or covering type of role. Because someone would need to cover defensively for the 2 attack-minded wide roles on that flank. 

 

2 hours ago, Terrixfull said:

So if I understand I should set roles for the players behind my AMC (if he is AP or AM) to stay behind him?

Yes, provided the AMC remains on support duty. But even if you switch him to attack, both CMs behind him can still be played in holding roles, depending on how wide players (i.e. fullbacks and wide forwards) are set up in terms of roles and duties. Role/duty selection and distribution must always be considered in the context of the whole system/setup, never in isolation. 

 

2 hours ago, Terrixfull said:

So I should change my roles behind my AMC into Car(s) as MCL and CM(d) as MCR?

That's just one possible combination. But as I said above, it can vary depending on other factors, i.e. the setup around them. 

 

2 hours ago, Terrixfull said:

If I may ask also: If I would switch my AMC to SS for instance Mezzala on support duty would be helpful then because he would make runs with him infront of the ST?

I personally would be wary of using a mezzala (on any duty) in a system like 4231, simply because defensive risk could prove too high - and needlessly so at that. 

Plus, if you want to use a SS, it's not necessary to have a mezzala behind him. There are other roles and role combinations that can provide support from behind. 

But again, whatever role you want to use in a certain position, you need to have a clear idea and plan as to why you want that role specifically and how it would fit in with the system as a whole as well as your intended style of play. 

2 hours ago, Terrixfull said:

- I set my tempo to lower alongside WBiB to lower my risk in possession, but as you mentioned when I am playing with Spurs removing "Dribble less" and "WBiB" but keeping lower tempo should get me more crosses and runs in my final third. I presume if I find myself struggling to get shots then increasing my tempo would help?

The thing with instructions is basically the same as with roles and duties - finding the right balance. In other words, playing a particular style of football does not necessarily mean that you must use all instructions that are associated with that style at once. 

For example, if I wanted to play a possession-oriented style of football with a top team like Spurs, my basic in-possession TIs (under the Positive mentality) would include only shorter passing and play out of defence. Everything else would be just small occasional in-match tweaks based on what I observe watching a given match. 

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2 hours ago, Terrixfull said:

How should I organize my defence to satisfy the need for more urgent pressing? Pushing my DL more forward and that's it or would it be wiser to place my AMC on the DM role and play like this:

                          DLF(a)

IF(a)                                              IF(S)

               DLP(s)         BBM(s)

                          DM(d) 

WB(s)      CD(d)        BPD(d)        WB(S)

                           SK(s)

Both approaches - either pushing the D-line slightly or changing the entire formation into a more balanced one - can be viable. 

 

2 hours ago, Terrixfull said:

Question: Would it be more balanced in terms of possession oriented system where my midfield is supplying balls to my wide players and then to my striker (and vice versa) to have my front CM's as the ones written or to switch my DLP(s) into BWM(s)?

You'll have to show me the whole tactic as you envision it. 

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On 25/12/2020 at 20:27, Experienced Defender said:

Both approaches - either pushing the D-line slightly or changing the entire formation into a more balanced one - can be viable. 

 

You'll have to show me the whole tactic as you envision it. 

I played a couple of matches and went to compare my previous tactic and the one I made now. Results have been decent against mid-table sides, but I am lacking effeciency against better sides.

I decided to drop the AMC role because I found the tactic with a DM more stable so I made this.

1st tactic: My aim is to stretch play on the flanks and have my front three alongside wingbacks to push ahead, while my back 5 (2 CM's, DM and 2 CB's) provides cover in case of a counter attack. I expect my CM's to pass to the flanks or Kane (who then holds the ball and passes to my wingers) and then to create a goal scoring opportunity. Now considering a lot of my shots are from outside the box, I am wondering if adding WBiB and increasing my tempo to Higher would make them more or less effecient in terms of creating chances?

 

2nd tactic: Aim here is to let opponent push a little and then around centre I press them and launch a counter attack by either using Kane who forwards the ball up the pitch or my wide forwards who then pass it to Kane. Here I found myself having a hard time playing against physical sides like Wolves and wonder if I should increase my mentality so my passes and movement are faster?

Screenshot_9.png

Screenshot_10.png

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On 25/12/2020 at 20:13, wicksy360 said:

So you’ve seen people’s advice, and what you took from this was you needed to change the formation and basically everything in one go? 

Not really, I played a couple of games even after first couple of replies with small adjustments and found myself scoring more goals but conceding as well so I decided to use a more balanced formation (with a DM) which is also effective, but I kept the AMC formation in case I am chasing a result in the last 15ish mins.

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10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Of the two 4123 wide tactics, the first one looks considerably better than second one. I don't see why did you opt for the cautious mentality? What are you trying to achieve by that?

I tried to achieve a counter attacking tactic because I am struggling against top sides. I lost against City, Liverpool, Chelsea and United (all away so far) mostly to crosses. I basically need something to handle big matches.

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44 minutes ago, Terrixfull said:

I tried to achieve a counter attacking tactic because I am struggling against top sides. I lost against City, Liverpool, Chelsea and United (all away so far) mostly to crosses. I basically need something to handle big matches.

That isn't truly how mentality works - think of mentality as 'risk' & 'intent'.

A cautious mentality for example means your players are less likely to try a defence splitting pass which is something you require to counter a team.

So for example on my current save with Dortmund if I am playing against a top side in the Champions League and my goal is to counter attack them.

I would go for instructions such as;

  • Positive/Attacking mentality
  • A compact combination of defensive line and LOE such as; Standard DL - Lower LOE.
  • Higher tempo
  • Fairly wide/wide 

I would also use early crosses & pass into space as potential in match tweaks.

 

Also I would be careful of how you use the counter press instruction as the idea behind the counter press is to win the ball high up the pitch - with your instructions, roles and formation you might not have the volume of bodies in the right positions to achieve this. You would be better of using regroup to lure them into your press and hit them from there.

I've found counter press works better against worse teams where I am controlling the game in their half of the pitch, and personally would suggest you assigning your 'front 4' specific pressing instructions rather than team set ones as I've found players just charge out of positions.

 

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1 hour ago, dw2193 said:

That isn't truly how mentality works - think of mentality as 'risk' & 'intent'.

A cautious mentality for example means your players are less likely to try a defence splitting pass which is something you require to counter a team.

So for example on my current save with Dortmund if I am playing against a top side in the Champions League and my goal is to counter attack them.

I would go for instructions such as;

  • Positive/Attacking mentality
  • A compact combination of defensive line and LOE such as; Standard DL - Lower LOE.
  • Higher tempo
  • Fairly wide/wide 

I would also use early crosses & pass into space as potential in match tweaks.

 

Also I would be careful of how you use the counter press instruction as the idea behind the counter press is to win the ball high up the pitch - with your instructions, roles and formation you might not have the volume of bodies in the right positions to achieve this. You would be better of using regroup to lure them into your press and hit them from there.

I've found counter press works better against worse teams where I am controlling the game in their half of the pitch, and personally would suggest you assigning your 'front 4' specific pressing instructions rather than team set ones as I've found players just charge out of positions.

 

This is a great advice, I always struggled with my In Transition instructions because I thought counter-press seemed logical if I had the players with right attributes for that.

Do you have any advice how to combat conceeding goals from crosses? At the moment I set my wingers to tightly mark opposition fullbacks and I am doing better now, it's just I don't know how can Aguero jump higher than Dier or Alderweireld.

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2 hours ago, Terrixfull said:

This is a great advice, I always struggled with my In Transition instructions because I thought counter-press seemed logical if I had the players with right attributes for that.

Do you have any advice how to combat conceeding goals from crosses? At the moment I set my wingers to tightly mark opposition fullbacks and I am doing better now, it's just I don't know how can Aguero jump higher than Dier or Alderweireld.

I don't think there is an exact method to simply stop the cross - It's how most 'bad teams' score their goals against the better sides from what I've seen.

I've found in my experience conceding from crosses is more down to your actual players rather than the tactic.

A few things you could try;   

  1. Examine your games on extended highlights and watch how the opposition get in a position to cross the ball. (are they dribbling around your fullbacks, is the pass out to the opposition winger too easy)
  2. Examine your attributes
  • if your fullbacks have poor; positioning, tackling, concentration & bravery - they're most likely going to cost you goals.
  • CBs need good - positioning, heading, jumping reach, anticipation & bravery in order to deal with crosses into the box.
  • GKs need good aerial attributes. 

If your players are poor in these areas then you would be vulnerable to any team that is capable of pinning you back in your box and working it wide.

 

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5 hours ago, Terrixfull said:

I tried to achieve a counter attacking tactic because I am struggling against top sides

Well, then that's all the more reason not to switch to the cautious (or any low) mentality. Because lower mentalities only slow down your attacking transitions and make your players more risk-averse, especially in terms of passing and forward movement. 

Lower mentalities are suited for passive defensive styles, such as parked bus or catenaccio, not counter-attack. If you want a more counter-attacking version of your primary tactic, then rather than lowering the mentality, you should drop the line of engagement slightly so as to improve defensive compactness as well as create space for your forwards by drawing the opposition more onto yourself. Then you need to make sure roles and duties are set up in such a way as to further contribute to better defensive solidity along with having enough players in advanced areas who are ready to attack space as early as possible when an opposition attack has been intercepted. 

However, considering that you manage the Spurs, who are a top team, I don't think that you need a counter-attacking tactic at all. Instead, I would rather look to improve your primary tactic by a couple of small tweaks. 

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2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

However, considering that you manage the Spurs, who are a top team, I don't think that you need a counter-attacking tactic at all. Instead, I would rather look to improve your primary tactic by a couple of small tweaks. 

I understand, what should I opt out then when I play against top-sides and teams who play a low block? I am constantly drawing against mid-table teams because I can't push ahead of them. Sometimes I lower my LoE in hopes of drawing them further up the pitch and sometimes I tell my players to play wider and dribble more. Thanks for all the answers by the way and to everyone else you helped me a lot.

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5 hours ago, Terrixfull said:

what should I opt out then when I play against top-sides and teams who play a low block? I am constantly drawing against mid-table teams because I can't push ahead of them

Assuming we are talking here about your first (primary) tactic that uses the positive mentality and Kane as a DLF on attack duty, the first tweak I would consider is changing passing into standard instead of shorter, provided you want to keep the roles and duties unchanged. Because that setup of roles and duties is not ideally suited for short-passing play in advanced areas. I mean, it can work, but sometimes your players may struggle (especially against defensive opposition).

I would also remove the Distribution to CBs (as well as short kicks), given that you already instructed the team to play out of defence, so there is no need to be so specific with keeper distribution. 

Out of possession, my preferred combo of instructions - and the one that has regularly been the most successful for me - is higher DL, standard LOE and split block involving the front 3 + the more attacking CM (BBM in this case). 

In case you insist on shorter passing, I would just make a couple of subtle tweaks to your roles/duties:

DLFsu

IFat                                IWsu

DLPsu  MEZat

HB

WBsu   CDde  BPDde  WBsu

GK/SKde

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18 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

However, considering that you manage the Spurs, who are a top team, I don't think that you need a counter-attacking tactic at all. Instead, I would rather look to improve your primary tactic by a couple of small tweaks. 

Your reply seems to be in the wrong place, this needs to be moved to the comments section of Jose Mourinho’s Instagram page....... :brock:

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Posted (edited)
On 27/12/2020 at 23:28, Experienced Defender said:

but sometimes your players may struggle (especially against defensive opposition).

 

Hi, sorry it took me a while to respond I was away during the holidays.

Anyhow, I wanted to address what you said because I also wanted to test out the advices you've given me. I increased my passing and I keep finding myself struggling against 10th-20th teams. I also noticed they all mostly play 4-2-3-1 Wide and I didn't find an efficient way to counter that formation. I mostly draw matches, but I can't win.

 

EDIT: To correct myself fully, I struggle to create chances. Out of last 3 domestic matches, only 1 goal came from open play. Others were mistakes from the opposition. And all of those matches ended with just that, while Lloris saved me multiple times as opponent xG was around 1 most of the time.

Screenshot_11.png

Edited by Terrixfull
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21 hours ago, Terrixfull said:

Screenshot_11.png

Overall, these results don't look bad at all IMHO. 

Anyway, I'd like to see a screenshot of your current tactic (with the tweaks you made). 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Anyway, I'd like to see a screenshot of your current tactic (with the tweaks you made). 

In the first image I implemented split block by having my front three and BBM on close down more. I kept to distribute to my centre backs as I noticed my SK sometimes keeps kicking the ball higher up to pitch which results in me losing the ball (also Lloris' poor kicking doesn't help here). 

Results are not bad yes, but I am not making chances and opposition keeps dispossessing me. Most of my goals came from sheer luck. I tweak the tactic regarding the opposition, for instance if I am playing against a low-block team, I try to shorten my passes and play more narrow. Although if certain teams have good midfield, I opt out for keeping my passing direction and play wider.

Screenshot_12.png

In the second image I try to play some sort of vertical tiki-taka with shorter passing and exploiting the middle. Usually works against 4-3-3 and 4-4-2, but I struggle to create chances regardless and also low-block 5-3-2 WB is a nightmare for me.

Screenshot_14.png

Also I was curious to ask, would lowering my tempo and increasing my passing to more direct be helpful against Gegenpressing sides like Liverpool?

Edited by Terrixfull
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@Terrixfull Sorry mate, but neither of these 2 tactics is based on what I was suggesting, especially in terms of roles and duties (which are the most important part of any tactic IMHO). 

On the flip side, there are 2 things I like:

- the right side of the setup in the first tactic (WBat + DLPsu + IWsu)

- the left side in the second one (WBsu + DLPsu + IFat)

Anyway. I would discard the second tactic entirely and focus on amending the first one, because it's definitely the one that can be improved upon more readily. 

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Sorry, the second tactic could actually be improved more easily, at least in terms of roles and duties - by a simple switch of the mezzala's duty from support to attack. 

Then you'll just need to sort out some instructions (including the removal of the regroup, which makes no sense for a top team like the Spurs).

 

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