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Do players have too many attributes?


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Let me preface it by saying that I am not new to the game and I remember how 20 years ago players had "shooting" attribute while finishing and long shots were hidden.

Still, I believe that players currently have a bit too many attributes to the point that no one really knows what exactly they do. I read guides and seems like people are just making common sense assumptions about what a particular attribute means.

Like what is "pressure"? Is it the ability to handle important game? No, there's a separate "important games" for this. Is it the ability to keep cool in important situations? But what is composure than? I for one thought that composure is about keeping cool while being pressed by a rushing opponent. Like players with low composure would make a panic clearance. However, composure is shown in a filter to select penalty shooters, so composure must be about pressure. So, if my player is taking a penalty shot, are his nerves governed by composure or pressure? If player has high pressure and low important games would he fare better than the other way around?

 

Speaking of penalties, what "penalty taking" attribute does? No, I am not an idiot who can't grasp that it affects player's ability to score from a spot. But what EXACTLY it does? Does it affect shot power? Or accuracy? Or player's nerves? Or his ability to send the goalie wrong way? Would player with finishing 20 and penalties 1 more likely to score than the opposite? From my experience, there's little correlation between "penalties" attribute and player's ability to convert a spot kick. I genuinely have no idea what it does, except that it's probably one of many multipliers in the dice that decides the outcome of a shot.

What is natural fitness? Player may be very injury prone yet very naturally fit. He can have strength 20 yet natural fitness 1. Does natural fitness affect how much a player recovers during the half time? Or is it governed by stamina? 

 

Just too many attributes for nearly the same thing. 

 

Edited by nully29
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You do know you get tool tips if you hover over the attributes, right? I know you are familiar with the game, but we all miss little things like this because we simply never did it. 

1 hour ago, nully29 said:

Like what is "pressure"?

Pressure is a players ability to handle pressure. Such as media scrutiny, or closely contested title run ins/relegation battles. 

1 hour ago, nully29 said:

But what is composure than?

Composure is the ability of a player to make good decisions with and without the ball. Why is it important to penalties? Well, you want him to make a good choice. Such as "lets place it into the corner away from the keeper" not 'lets close my eyes and blast it as hard as I can and hope". Same goes for scoring goals. A high composure player is going to, for example, know when to loft the ball over a keeper, whilst a low composure player might just blast the ball. 

1 hour ago, nully29 said:

So, if my player is taking a penalty shot, are his nerves governed by composure or pressure? If player has high pressure and low important games would he fare better than the other way around?

Why do you assume it can only be affected by one thing? A player could be cool as a cucumber under pressure, but take a crap penalty because he lacks the composure. Or he could have great composure but be really nervous that his penalty could decide a World Cup Final. These are not mutually exclusive things. They are different aspects that can influence what a player does. 

1 hour ago, nully29 said:

peaking of penalties, what "penalty taking" attribute does? No, I am not an idiot who can't grasp that it affects player's ability to score from a spot. But what EXACTLY it does? Does it affect shot power? Or accuracy? Or player's nerves?

It just tells you how good they are at taking penalties. It does not go alone. Some players are just really good at penalties, and almost always score them, whatever their position is. As to what exactly it does, does it matter? It makes a player more likely to convert a penalty. How exactly it works only SI could tell you, because nobody knows how the programming works. As you say, it likely acts as a modifier on other attributes. But it does not matter, because this attribute tells you if a player is happy taking a penalty. Then other things will come into play. Nothing in FM works in isolation. As to not seeing any influence, I would be surprised if anyone has ever been able to look into it. You would need to watch a lot of penalties to get a good grasp on the stats there, and simply people do not get enough in a season. You would need to know the baseline conversion rate, and compare that to players of all attribute levels. It is quite impossible to say if it has a correlation from the data we have.

1 hour ago, nully29 said:

What is natural fitness? Player may be very injury prone yet very naturally fit. He can have strength 20 yet natural fitness 1. Does natural fitness affect how much a player recovers during the half time? Or is it governed by stamina? 

Natural fitness determines how well a player stays fit, basically. High natural fitness means they stay fitter when not training, and between matches. High natural fitness will also cause players to lose their physical traits slower as they age. Stamina is how well they endure lots of sustained activity. Such as running up and down a flank. I'd imagine there is a correlation between natural fitness and stamina, but they are not the same thing. I would imagine stamina governs everything during a match, but that I am not sure about. Strength is something else, it is just how strong a player is, how well they can for example muscle someone off the ball, or shield a ball from a defender. Strength does not really have to correlate to natural fitness or stamina. I could think of a huge number of lumbering strikers from the 90s who would have had 20 strength and 1 for stamina. A player like Ronaldo probably has high for both. 

The tooltips really do help in understanding the difference between different attributes. 

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Thank you for long and detailed response. Still, it somewhat proved that SI is not very concise when it comes to attributes. Basically, SI is lumping together several multipliers for every situation. That's what I'm talking about.

 

8 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Composure is the ability of a player to make good decisions with and without the ball

Isn't it Decisions? Or positioning/off the ball? Or flair? Or all of them? Don't forget to factor in pressure and important matches. I still don't get the difference between pressure and composure, except that pressure determines how player responds to media speculations (feeling pressured by interest in him).

 

8 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

How exactly it works only SI could tell you, because nobody knows how the programming works. As you say, it likely acts as a modifier on other attributes. But it does not matter, because this attribute tells you if a player is happy taking a penalty. Then other things will come into play. Nothing in FM works in isolation

This is exactly what I mean. Devs are just putting many multipliers together, to the point where nobody is quite sure what each multiplier does and one particular multiplier makes little difference. 

 

8 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Natural fitness determines how well a player stays fit, basically. High natural fitness means they stay fitter when not training, and between matches. High natural fitness will also cause players to lose their physical traits slower as they age

I thought it's professionalism. What is staying fitter anyway? Recovering condition? Could be. Match sharpness? Dunno.

 

8 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Strength does not really have to correlate to natural fitness or stamina

Strength and stamina have almost no correlation (marathon runners are weak). Yet, natural fitness should correlate to both. As well, as to injury proness. And to agility. I would argue, that natural fitness is redundant. Strength, stamina, injury proness and other physical attributes combined basically give you natural fitness.

 

8 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Strength is something else, it is just how strong a player is, how well they can for example muscle someone off the ball, or shield a ball from a defender

Yes, it is, but balance is also in play here. Does balance do anything except for shoulder-to-shoulder duels which are also governed by strength? Is balance another attribute that does nothing on its own, but merely multiplies other attributes in certain situations? 

 

8 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

The tooltips really do help in understanding the difference between different attributes

They somewhat do. Yet, there are still many misunderstandings about the game. When you choose a captain, the game shows you leadership and teamwork. But never determination. Most guides talk about leadership as the most important attribute for a captain. In reality though, determination of all players goes down to determination of captain, so determination is the most important attribute for captain. And the game itself never acknowledge it.

Edited by nully29
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In the book 'Thinking Fast and Slow', Daniel Kahneman discusses the use of metrics in both recruitment and medical diagnosis and what he says (vastly simplified) is that humans have a tendency to create a vast array of metrics to try to analyse things when a smaller, better targeted set of metrics gives far better predictive outcomes. Why is Kahneman's (Nobel prize winning) research valid here?

Well maybe the vast array of attributes in FM are too much and lead to confusion, not only amongst the game's players, but more importantly for the developers - that a more streamlined set of attributes may allow an ME to be developed which is more naturalistic in its behaviour, easier to balance and quicker to process.

 

Edited by rp1966
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At the top of the forum is a link to the Online Manual.  Under the "Players" section of that is a fairly long section called "An Introduction to Attributes" which provides more information about attributes than the in game tool tips do https://community.sigames.com/manual/football-manager-2021/players-r768/

It probably won't answer all of your questions but it should give you more of an understanding of the attributes and how they start to combine with each other.

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58 minutes ago, XaW said:

Well, it could be, but it could also remove some nuances. I'll give an example; Speed/Pace/whatever you want to call it. Today it's two attributes, Pace and Acceleration. Why not just have "Speed"? Well, then it would be impossible to differentiate between a player that is quick to start, and a slower starter with higher top speed. Shorter player often have higher acceleration while taller player will often have a higher top speed (due to length of strides quite often).

The same can be said for other stats, and some would argue that FM needs more attributes. Why not differentiate between long passes and short passes? Shot placement vs shot power?

I don't know what the correct set is, and it could be more or less than it currently is, but streamlining it down to a handful is not something my gut feeling would be happy about, it would seem more "arcade", and that's not a route I'd want the game to take.

I'm not sure it would be a handful - that may be oversimplifying.  I don't think the variation in play can be reduced to something as simple as that for flocking birds (a great example of simple rules giving rise to complexity), But it certainly feels like we have individual ratings for qualities that arise as a combination of more fundamental things.

For example - a corner is a cross from a fixed location; a cross is a form of pass taken on the move with a particular directional focus.  Similar logic works for free-kicks and penalties as variants on shooting.  Do they really need to be attributes in their own right or should they arise from combinations of other things?  Should passing and shooting be presented as power vs accuracy curves rather than a multitude of individual ratings? 

Not necessarily right, but just trying to throw out the idea that some things we think of in footballing terms as a specific thing are often a situational variant of a more fundamental skill.

 

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31 minutes ago, herne79 said:

At the top of the forum is a link to the Online Manual.  Under the "Players" section of that is a fairly long section called "An Introduction to Attributes" which provides more information about attributes than the in game tool tips do https://community.sigames.com/manual/football-manager-2021/players-r768/

It probably won't answer all of your questions but it should give you more of an understanding of the attributes and how they start to combine with each other.

This is a good read, in general, but this quote sums it up:

Every player has almost 40 visible playing attributes. They often work in conjunction with each other, either with another single attribute, or in combination with many, and the total number of combinations of attributes working in a synchronised fashion is stupendous.

 

Also, I believe that descriptions are generic, for example:

 

Anticipation

How well a player can predict and react to an event. If a player has a high attribute here, they can read the game well and react to situations more quickly than others. It also has a significant effect on a player’s awareness and whether they identify space for themselves to play in, as well as whether they react to signs of danger created by the opponent.

 

How anticipation really works (from what I could gather). It is the number of main loops for player to wait before he reacts to an event. For example, another player makes a pass. One main loop passes, i.e. each player makes some sort of move. Another main loop passes. Players with high anticipation realize that the pass is made and react accordingly. Players with low anticipation keep going without realizing a pass. Another main loop passes. Players with worse anticipation react to pass. Yet another main loop passes. By now even the least anticipation players see the pass and react.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, rp1966 said:

I'm not sure it would be a handful - that may be oversimplifying.  I don't think the variation in play can be reduced to something as simple as that for flocking birds (a great example of simple rules giving rise to complexity), But it certainly feels like we have individual ratings for qualities that arise as a combination of more fundamental things.

For example - a corner is a cross from a fixed location; a cross is a form of pass taken on the move with a particular directional focus.  Similar logic works for free-kicks and penalties as variants on shooting.  Do they really need to be attributes in their own right or should they arise from combinations of other things?  Should passing and shooting be presented as power vs accuracy curves rather than a multitude of individual ratings? 

Not necessarily right, but just trying to throw out the idea that some things we think of in footballing terms as a specific thing are often a situational variant of a more fundamental skill.

 

I see your point and it might be correct, I simply think that simplifying it can make some aspects less realistic. A corner for instance is very different from a cross in many ways. There is much less pressure, speed is not an issue, there are quite often a fixed routine and they must be served in a certain manner. A cross also implies much more movement, both from the crosser and the target in the box. Take a player like Adama Traore. He has excellent crossing, but I don't think I've seen him take a corner ever. Why is that? Because they are very different in both planning and execution. Set pieces is vastly different from open play even if the outcome is similar. A winger in pace crossing from almost the corner flag is not the same as a corner.

Another point is that the stats are also used for decision making in the manager AI in the game. Without an attribute for penalty taking, how would the game know James Milner is excellent at them? His shooting is not fantastic, he is calm, but not any more than van Dijk. He is experienced, but so are most older players. No stat will tell you that he is well suited to take pens other than penalty taking, so how would the game decide that Milner would be a good choice without it?

And I'm not trying to shut down your idea here, mind. The game is quite hard to be introduced to and not very helpful for newer players, but I don't want it become an less complex, if you understand my meaning.

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4 minutes ago, XaW said:

I see your point and it might be correct, I simply think that simplifying it can make some aspects less realistic. A corner for instance is very different from a cross in many ways. There is much less pressure, speed is not an issue, there are quite often a fixed routine and they must be served in a certain manner. A cross also implies much more movement, both from the crosser and the target in the box. Take a player like Adama Traore. He has excellent crossing, but I don't think I've seen him take a corner ever. Why is that? Because they are very different in both planning and execution. Set pieces is vastly different from open play even if the outcome is similar. A winger in pace crossing from almost the corner flag is not the same as a corner.

Another point is that the stats are also used for decision making in the manager AI in the game. Without an attribute for penalty taking, how would the game know James Milner is excellent at them? His shooting is not fantastic, he is calm, but not any more than van Dijk. He is experienced, but so are most older players. No stat will tell you that he is well suited to take pens other than penalty taking, so how would the game decide that Milner would be a good choice without it?

And I'm not trying to shut down your idea here, mind. The game is quite hard to be introduced to and not very helpful for newer players, but I don't want it become an less complex, if you understand my meaning.

The way I'm thinking about crossing is that it is modified by the speed at which the player is moving - so Traore may be able to execute the cross at pace (maybe a modifier from ball control; which itself is dependant on the speed a player is moving), but someone like Ward-Prowse, who is a great example of where good passing, crossing and dead ball skills meet, has a strong bias towards passing/crossing accuracy at the lower end of the speed curve - all the way down to static (which allows for good dead ball capability).

The point about the Ai managers was well made. Would save processing on their decision-making to have the singe figure rating.

Interesting meta-discussion, regardless.  

 

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Think the difference between pressure and composure is that pressure is more related to overall player form dropping or remaining steady due to transfer rumors, relegation battle, staying top of the league, etc. Remember those questions in press conferences about which player you think it's most dangerous and which one you will use to counter him? different pressure values will make the player react differently. I'd say a club like Spurs has an overall low pressure attribute and surely Jose is trying to change that which means bringing a winning mentality to the club!

Composure I believe to be the ability to stay cool and at the best of your abilities when you are in a critical moment of the game. Say a shooting opportunity in the edge of the area, a tap in in the box, a penalty, passing at the back under striker pressure. When does composure won't matter much is when you have several passing options in a relatively risk free situation. 

I understand it can be mixed with decisions but imagine, you've certainly seen players being applauded for missing a pass or a shot because the idea was good. Ah nice try! He thought well but the pass failed because he either had low technical attribute or his low composure didn't allow him to be at the best of his ability. I'd say a guy like Messi and Cr7 should have close to 20 composure while Neymar would have a little less because despite his very high technique he still misses in critical moments of the game. 

Edited by afailed10
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1 hour ago, nully29 said:

I believe that descriptions are generic

I'd agree and imo intentionally so.  The issue becomes one of how much information is given before we have information overload.  You picked Anticipation as an example and for me the only thing I actually need to know is summed up in the first few words of the description: "How well a player can predict and react to an event."  A similar process can be applied to all attributes.

However, I'd also agree that a description of how and which attributes can combine with each other leaves a little to be desired, thus being left open to interpretation (which isn't always correct) and confusion.  Logic, common sense, experience can all help here (which aren't always applicable I know) but something that can really help understanding is looking at the highlighted desired/required attributes for a role and role descriptions, and then looking at players we know to be good in those roles.

For example, what is an Inside Forward?  What attributes are needed to perform the role?  Easy answer - read the in game description and then highlight the role in a player's profile to see the combination of useful attributes.  We can then look up someone in the database who we may consider to be a real life example of an IF such as Eden Hazard and look at his attributes / Traits.

It's not an exact science so my advice would be to consider roles and their combinations of attributes, rather than focus on just individual attributes and wonder how they combine.

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1 hour ago, XaW said:

nother point is that the stats are also used for decision making in the manager AI in the game. Without an attribute for penalty taking, how would the game know James Milner is excellent at them? His shooting is not fantastic, he is calm, but not any more than van Dijk. He is experienced, but so are most older players. No stat will tell you that he is well suited to take pens other than penalty taking, so how would the game decide that

It could be, but penalty taking attribute actually does not solely determine how good player is with penalties. It is merely one of several multipliers, along with finishing, composure, technique (?), concentration (?) and maybe strength (does it affect shot power?). Does decisions affect penalties as well? Does determination affect it if a team is losing? So whether there is or there is no attribute for penalty taking, coach still has to weigh several attributes, which makes the attribute in question somewhat redundant and probably confusing.

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Could definitely lose a few of the mental attributes with only minor changes to some definitions.

Specifically I would remove Decisions entirely, and whittle down the Aggression/Workrate/Determination/Concentration/Teamwork group into something more streamlined.

Edited by swansongs
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11 minutes ago, swansongs said:

Could definitely lose a few of the mental attributes with only minor changes to some definitions.

Yeah, like player can have 20 at both Dirtiness and Sportsmanship. I somewhat understand that those are for different situations (reckless tackles and diving respectively), but it's another example of overenginering things a bit.

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1 hour ago, afailed10 said:

Composure I believe to be the ability to stay cool and at the best of your abilities when you are in a critical moment of the game. Say a shooting opportunity in the edge of the area, a tap in in the box, a penalty, passing at the back under striker pressure. When does composure won't matter much is when you have several passing options in a relatively risk free situation. 

I believe you are correct. However, it results in a player with Iron Willed personality, who has low composure and hence fails at critical moments of the game because he can't keep his cool.

Edited by nully29
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I dont really have a problem with the attribute number. I think that they should be more clearly differentiated though. 

I understand that saying explicitily what they do in the ME is not the objective. But they are supposed to represent something for the player. What can not happen is that after reading the description you still have not much of an idea of what it does. 

Like taking the corner example. Does crossing help there? And if so, how important is it (even vaguely speaking) relative to corners attributte? It doesnt even appear in the default filter when you are selecting corner takers but it would seem like it matters.

Also I got to say that in game is clearly worse, maybe also partly due to translation?. In the page that was linked before I seem to grasp better some attribtues than I do in game. For example, I always had doutbs about what Flair did. Given the game said it was about been creative and unexpected. I wasn't getting what that mean when translating to comparing someone with high passing and vision but low flair vs somewone with very high flair and somewhat worse in those attributes. In the page it seems is about risks. Like they are more likely to take risky actions regarding shooting, passing and dribbling.

Things like composure and concentration share a very similar description. They both feel like they modify the decision making of a player in tight/difficult situations. From the page seems like composure is more with ball and concentration more without it and about consistency. In game I reached the same conclusion but it was due to concentration been highlighted more in defensive roles and composure in offensive ones. In the description they looked the same. Decisions would be then the general decision making stat. Still there is a lot of assumption. It wouldn't hurt to state this more clearly, and its not like it reveals the details of the ME.

Also there is other origin of confusion. For example like with agility and balance. It seems clear description wise what they are, but its uncertain when they are applied. Specially due to them not been highlighted in a lot of defensive roles, when you would expect it to be important to avoid fast players getting past you in through balls together with anticipation and pace attributes.

 

Also sometimes it feels like there is a lot of overlap. Like for example with hidden attributes. Dirtiness and sportmanship? They seem to be basically the same both by assumption and by in game description. Then you have pressure, which ok, could well be the more general handling of pressure (media, expectations, team talks, tournament situation...) while the other attributes focus on the match situations. But then you have big match too. What does even trigger a match been considered "big"? Its only assumption. And how does it compare to all the other mental attribtues already in place for these things?

Edited by Jervaj
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57 minutes ago, nully29 said:

It could be, but penalty taking attribute actually does not solely determine how good player is with penalties. It is merely one of several multipliers, along with finishing, composure, technique (?), concentration (?) and maybe strength (does it affect shot power?). Does decisions affect penalties as well?

The game highlights what is important (in terms of attributes) for penalties. Penalty Taking and Composure. Finishing will apply if the ball is saved and deflects toward the player again. One thing the game doesn't highlight is Body Language.

15 minutes ago, Jervaj said:

Things like composure and concentration share a very similar description.

Probably a translation issue. Concentration is how prone a player is to having lapses of concentration, so prone to making a mistake. Composure is keeping calm/composed when under pressure (players closing you down, bearing down on the keeper etc). In general, I'd agree that Composure is more important with the ball and Concentration more important without it. Losing concentration is potentially more costly as a defender compared to an attacker, for instance.

18 minutes ago, Jervaj said:

Also there is other origin of confusion. For example like with agility and balance. It seems clear description wise what they are, but its uncertain when they are applied. Specially due to them not been highlighted in a lot of defensive roles, when you would expect it to be important to avoid fast players getting past you in through balls together with anticipation and pace attributes.

Not sure where the confusion is here, but if you can explain more, I could add more detail to my answer. Agility is how quickly a player can change direction. I think the easiest way to see it in-play is with a wide player cutting inside. High Agility players just cut in (that change of direction) so much quicker. It applies to all changes in direction though.

Balance is very different from Agility. As I mentioned earlier, one of its uses is how well they are balanced when doing something at pace, whether it's dribbling, shooting, passing, crossing etc.

Here are two posts about Balance:

 

https://community.sigames.com/topic/538218-balance-in-fm-do-i-need-to-raise-data-report/?do=findComment&comment=12777935

Quote

Used for deciding what type of shot and the power of it is possible when moving at speed, overhead kicks, how well they can cope with a change of momentum through performing a pass/cross/tackle/dribble.
Used in combination with Strength when checking if a player can stand their ground in a collision between two players
Used in combination with Strength deciding delay resulting from going to the ground
Used in combination with Strength when scoring dribbling attribute when the player is under pressure
Used in combination with Strength when scoring decisions on controlling ball, creating space on receiving ball, turning on ball or holding up ball


 

 

https://community.sigames.com/topic/538218-balance-in-fm-do-i-need-to-raise-data-report/?tab=comments#comment-12779191

Quote

 

Balance is used for a variety of things, but one of the key elements is actions when moving at speed. How does a player handle a sudden change in momentum etc. Some pacy dribblers are better at twisting/turning at speed than others, and balance comes into that part of the equation.

It's also used as a minor factor when a player is holding up the ball and being challenged physically. Strength is the main factor but balance comes into it too. This doesn't mean you can't have a player with low strength and high balance, you certainly can! e.g. someone like Santi Cazorla can twist/turn while maintaining their balance with ease, and despite their very low strength can hold the ball up fairly well due to their low centre of gravity + balance.

Hopefully this explanation helps! in terms of research that's not my area, but you'll have to make a strong case for any changes with evidence to back it up. Generally speaking though the best dribblers in the world usually have good agility and balance as well, which allows them to change direction easier when moving at high speeds.

 

 

26 minutes ago, Jervaj said:

But then you have big match too. What does even trigger a match been considered "big"?

Big matches depend on the club. Rivalry matches and end of season matches that could decide continental qualification are big matches. For some clubs, the 3rd round of the FA cup is a big match. For others it's not, but that changes a bit when drawn against a rival. So there are varying degrees of what's "big" and what isn't.

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1 hour ago, swansongs said:

Could definitely lose a few of the mental attributes with only minor changes to some definitions.

Specifically I would remove Decisions entirely, and whittle down the Aggression/Workrate/Determination/Concentration/Teamwork group into something more streamlined.

I completely disagree,

I want the decision making of the player be represented in the ME, that's what makes players good or bad. I don't want robots following a simple passing pattern determined on the play represented. That would be the end of FM for me.

Aggression + Bravery are important to know who is going to throw himself in 50 50 balls.

Workrate + Teamwork are to know who is gonna give all during the game, again important. Gives players personality.

Determination is self explanatory, in fact we should have professionalism and ambition added to the visible mentals.

Concentration really important to follow through the game from start to finish, I don't want robots being 100% focused during the whole match, completely unrealistic.

 

Mentals is what separate the cream of the crop, so yeah keep them, thanks.

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1 hora atrás, nully29 disse:

I believe you are correct. However, it results in a player with Iron Willed personality, who has low composure and hence fails at critical moments of the game because he can't keep his cool.

Yes, Composure is more akin to natural talent imo. An iron willed guy like Vidal or James Milner do make mistakes despite their 20 determination. You are confusing the types of pressure. The mental pressure of the game and circumstances (pressure attribute) with the physical more technical part (composure). Messi and his runs into the box with the ball glued in his feet. Many players can do that but how many still have the mental breathe to pinpoint the location of the shot? or see a team mate ready to tap in? Surely Balance comes into the equation but then Akinsfenwa would be king if composure didn't matter.

We run the risk of getting down to semantics but I understand what you feel. Perhaps other words can be used and it may be lost in translation. Even myself who doesn't have English as main language. In any case, I think there's place for composure and pressure. Further analogy with the Iron willed guys: Why you never see players like Milner, Gattuso and Vidal playing in tight attacking spaces? Because their low composure tied with their lower relative technical power won't let them find the best solutions in difficult situations, so they pass it simple. Even with 20 decisions they will do what's best according to their technical ability and go for the more effective solution which is often to lay it simple for a more gifted team mate. You can see often Vidal getting into the box but it's usually for a tap in, a first time shot or a header. Doesn't mean his composure is low it's just lower than some other's. 

Both Salah and Mane have very good composure, Firmino too. That's why they are so good. These players are very dangerous in the box. Some dribble better, some have more shot accuracy and so on.

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27 minutes ago, Sharkn20 said:

I completely disagree,

I want the decision making of the player be represented in the ME, that's what makes players good or bad. I don't want robots following a simple passing pattern determined on the play represented. That would be the end of FM for me.

Aggression + Bravery are important to know who is going to throw himself in 50 50 balls.

Workrate + Teamwork are to know who is gonna give all during the game, again important. Gives players personality.

Determination is self explanatory, in fact we should have professionalism and ambition added to the visible mentals.

Concentration really important to follow through the game from start to finish, I don't want robots being 100% focused during the whole match, completely unrealistic.

 

Mentals is what separate the cream of the crop, so yeah keep them, thanks.

As a researcher I don't think about "Decisions" in isolation. The question is always why a player makes decisions that are interpreted as being good or bad in a game. Do they lack the vision or anticipation to recognise their options, the composure to make the right choices under pressure (or concentration to do so under no pressure), poor teamwork or flair that makes them selfish or too ambitious for their skillset etc. The Decisions attribute itself feels too generic in application, and rather redundant given all the other qualities can assign players.

As you point out, a lot of the qualities you look for are represented by pairs of overlapping attributes. There's a lot of that on the mental side. There's no real reason why Agg/Det/Wrk/Bra/Twk needs to be 5 distinct attributes in each player profile. While you say they're important they all tend to be weighted very low (or zero weighted) against a player's CA value which is our general measure of player ability. Each one in isolation does very little to effect how your player will play in the match engine. The list could easily be pared down by one or two with no loss of "personality" of players.

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3 hours ago, XaW said:

Another point is that the stats are also used for decision making in the manager AI in the game.

This may be true actually. Goalies do not have "penalty saving" attribute. The reason is probably because coach needs to select a player to take a penalty, but doesn't need to select a goalie to save it.

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3 hours ago, XaW said:

I see your point and it might be correct, I simply think that simplifying it can make some aspects less realistic. A corner for instance is very different from a cross in many ways. There is much less pressure, speed is not an issue, there are quite often a fixed routine and they must be served in a certain manner. A cross also implies much more movement, both from the crosser and the target in the box. Take a player like Adama Traore. He has excellent crossing, but I don't think I've seen him take a corner ever. Why is that? Because they are very different in both planning and execution. Set pieces is vastly different from open play even if the outcome is similar. A winger in pace crossing from almost the corner flag is not the same as a corner.

Another point is that the stats are also used for decision making in the manager AI in the game. Without an attribute for penalty taking, how would the game know James Milner is excellent at them? His shooting is not fantastic, he is calm, but not any more than van Dijk. He is experienced, but so are most older players. No stat will tell you that he is well suited to take pens other than penalty taking, so how would the game decide that Milner would be a good choice without it?

And I'm not trying to shut down your idea here, mind. The game is quite hard to be introduced to and not very helpful for newer players, but I don't want it become an less complex, if you understand my meaning.

Penalty Specialist could just be a PPM/trait. It does feel a bit much to have a 1-20 scale on top of all the other standard attributes that would be applied to them. Penalties are a discreet event that we have plenty of irl stats for conversion rates, so are a lot easier to make feel realistic with fewer variables than a lot of the game.

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4 hours ago, herne79 said:

At the top of the forum is a link to the Online Manual.  Under the "Players" section of that is a fairly long section called "An Introduction to Attributes" which provides more information about attributes than the in game tool tips do https://community.sigames.com/manual/football-manager-2021/players-r768/

It probably won't answer all of your questions but it should give you more of an understanding of the attributes and how they start to combine with each other.

 

Is this correct? Does natural fitness affect anything on the pitch? That's what I'm talking about - too many attributes result in confusion and inconsistent interpretation.

 

Pace     

 

Pace is a player’s top speed. Whereas Acceleration reflects how quickly a player can attain their top speed, Pace is that top speed and, together with Stamina and Natural Fitness, controls how long they are able to maintain it, both in short bursts and over the course of a match.

 

Natural Fitness

 

A player’s natural fitness influences how well they stay fit when injured or not training. This helps to determine how quickly players recover from injury, how well they retain their physical attributes as they go past their peak, and how fast they recover between matches

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2 minutes ago, swansongs said:

Penalty Specialist could just be a PPM/trait. It does feel a bit much to have a 1-20 scale on top of all the other standard attributes that would be applied to them. Penalties are a discreet event that we have plenty of irl stats for conversion rates, so are a lot easier to make feel realistic with fewer variables than a lot of the game.

Yeah, that would be a reasonable counter point, actually. I'm on board, throw out penalty taking and add it as a trait. Then use finishing, technique, decisions, pressure, et al to work it out as now.

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1 minute ago, XaW said:

Yeah, that would be a reasonable counter point, actually. I'm on board, throw out penalty taking and add it as a trait. Then use finishing, technique, decisions, pressure, et al to work it out as now.

Anticipation (reading the keeper's movement), Composure, Sportsmanship (for the stuttering, skipping runups and trash talk)...

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30 minutes ago, nully29 said:

Is this correct?

SI wrote it so yes, however I take your point re. Natural Fitness and that definition looks like it is missing info. regarding in match effects.  Correct but incomplete perhaps?  For me (and this is just my own logic) players can recover some Condition during half time so I like to think that is their Natural Fitness having an effect, whereas in game it may have an influence on the rate at which Condition drops in combination with Stamina.

ok that's supposition on my part and may be completely incorrect, but I don't really mind that because for me I'm just applying my own logic and experience as to how I'd manage my players.  Role Playing things if you like.  And sometimes it's much more fun to just manage things using a bit of common sense with a broad understanding, rather than completely fall down the rabbit hole of worrying about what everything does to a greater degree.  Of course I appreciate some people do want that level of detail and fair play to them, it's just not necessarily necessary (:p) to play the game.

So if I want my Inside Forward to dribble well, I want him to have some balance, agility and acceleration to go with his dribbling skills.

If I want my striker to shoot properly, I want him to have some good composure to go with his finishing.

If I want that same striker to get himself into dangerous positions before he shoots, I want him to have good off the ball and anticipation.

If I want my centre backs to defend, I want them to tackle, mark, position themselves well and be able to jump a bit to deal with crosses.

If I want my DLP to be a half decent playmaker I'll read the role description and see what the desired attributes are for the role.

And so on.  Yes it can get confusing if you really delve deeply but that can also lead us into over thinking things and honestly (I'm not trying to be rude here) it sounds to me that you kind of are.  Take a step back, it really doesn't need to be that complicated :thup:.

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18 minutes ago, herne79 said:

SI wrote it so yes, however I take your point re. Natural Fitness and that definition looks like it is missing info. regarding in match effects.  Correct but incomplete perhaps?  For me (and this is just my own logic) players can recover some Condition during half time so I like to think that is their Natural Fitness having an effect, whereas in game it may have an influence on the rate at which Condition drops in combination with Stamina.

ok that's supposition on my part and may be completely incorrect, but I don't really mind that because for me I'm just applying my own logic and experience as to how I'd manage my players.  Role Playing things if you like.  And sometimes it's much more fun to just manage things using a bit of common sense with a broad understanding, rather than completely fall down the rabbit hole of worrying about what everything does to a greater degree.  Of course I appreciate some people do want that level of detail and fair play to them, it's just not necessarily necessary (:p) to play the game.

So if I want my Inside Forward to dribble well, I want him to have some balance, agility and acceleration to go with his dribbling skills.

If I want my striker to shoot properly, I want him to have some good composure to go with his finishing.

If I want that same striker to get himself into dangerous positions before he shoots, I want him to have good off the ball and anticipation.

If I want my centre backs to defend, I want them to tackle, mark, position themselves well and be able to jump a bit to deal with crosses.

If I want my DLP to be a half decent playmaker I'll read the role description and see what the desired attributes are for the role.

And so on.  Yes it can get confusing if you really delve deeply but that can also lead us into over thinking things and honestly (I'm not trying to be rude here) it sounds to me that you kind of are.  Take a step back, it really doesn't need to be that complicated :thup:.

It is pretty easy to understand at the attributes, you only have to hoover over them and they are even highlighted when u click on the roles, so am all in with ur say here.

Numbers of attributes at this point is excellent and gives players personality, which is even more awesome.

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2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Probably a translation issue. Concentration is how prone a player is to having lapses of concentration, so prone to making a mistake. Composure is keeping calm/composed when under pressure (players closing you down, bearing down on the keeper etc). In general, I'd agree that Composure is more important with the ball and Concentration more important without it. Losing concentration is potentially more costly as a defender compared to an attacker, for instance.

So concentration is basically consistency in (less call it) a "normal" situation? Like not suddenly passing a ball right into a rival when there is no pressure and things like that. I got that vibe a bit, and makes sense due to the name but it was confusing. It may be translation, thanks!

 

2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Not sure where the confusion is here, but if you can explain more, I could add more detail to my answer. Agility is how quickly a player can change direction. I think the easiest way to see it in-play is with a wide player cutting inside. High Agility players just cut in (that change of direction) so much quicker. It applies to all changes in direction though.

What I meant is that the confusion in these two is not the stat itself. Like the description seems pretty clear. You read it and its like, "Ok, I got it". But then you see that defenders dont get it highlighted at all. Yet it seems it would be quite important to keep up with attackers and in physical duels. My take, specially reading the links you posted is that the game priortizes it more for on ball actions that off ball ones, given it highlights it mainly for strikers that expect to dribble and/or hold the ball (the second more for balance) or for positions like IF where you expect dribling too.

 

2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Balance is very different from Agility. As I mentioned earlier, one of its uses is how well they are balanced when doing something at pace, whether it's dribbling, shooting, passing, crossing etc.

Here are two posts about Balance:

 

https://community.sigames.com/topic/538218-balance-in-fm-do-i-need-to-raise-data-report/?do=findComment&comment=12777935

 

https://community.sigames.com/topic/538218-balance-in-fm-do-i-need-to-raise-data-report/?tab=comments#comment-12779191

Thanks for the extra info.  Really interesting. it does reinforce what I mentioned before.

2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Big matches depend on the club. Rivalry matches and end of season matches that could decide continental qualification are big matches. For some clubs, the 3rd round of the FA cup is a big match. For others it's not, but that changes a bit when drawn against a rival. So there are varying degrees of what's "big" and what isn't.

Here we have a similarish issue in that the concept is clear, the problem is the practical applications because you dont really know when it trigers. As you said for different teams different rounds may count as "big". Then you have questions like Are all rivalries are big matches? Does facing a much more reputable team count as a big match? In leagues when you are fighting for relegation/promotion what matches count as big? The last one only? Several? Depends on who you are playing against?

And on top of that you have to combine all those questions with pressure. Does the player having bad big matches but good pressure mean he is okay? Does one mitigate the other or does big match prevail?

The TLDR is that it ends as something you understand and you know is situationally good to have. But you don't really know when its mattering to make any sensible decision based on it most of the time. I feel like clarifying (even if only broadly) how important something like this is compared to other in game metrics and when it applies would be great. Not like its the end of the world, but I understand what I can cause some frustration.

 

Thanks for your input!

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Concentration is essentially in-game Consistency, yes. Consistency is whether your player will be at their best (i.e. play to their visible attributes) on a particular matchday, while Concentration is whether they will perform to those levels on a moment-by-moment basis within each game. Important for any player with responsibility, both in defence and attack, on the ball or off it.

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9 hours ago, rp1966 said:

In the book 'Thinking Fast and Slow', Daniel Kahneman discusses the use of metrics in both recruitment and medical diagnosis and what he says (vastly simplified) is that humans have a tendency to create a vast array of metrics to try to analyse things when a smaller, better targeted set of metrics gives far better predictive outcomes. Why is Kahneman's (Nobel prize winning) research valid here?

Well maybe the vast array of attributes in FM are too much and lead to confusion, not only amongst the game's players, but more importantly for the developers - that a more streamlined set of attributes may allow an ME to be developed which is more naturalistic in its behaviour, easier to balance and quicker to process.

People playing the game and a naturalistic/balanced ME are two separate things. Kahneman's book is mainly about people and psychology so it likely could be applied to people playing the game, but in my 20 or so years of doing maths, I haven't seen or heard of a mathematical model that offered a better simulation with less input.

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7 hours ago, XaW said:

I see your point and it might be correct, I simply think that simplifying it can make some aspects less realistic. A corner for instance is very different from a cross in many ways.

I am sorry but I see you always peak some easy examples to discuss to enhance your point of view, while there are others being presented. Still even in the corner scenario, player must also have good crossing in combination with good corner attribute. Why not for example just be a "Set Pieces" attribute that work for Free kicks, Throw ins, Corners and penalties and then have crossing, shooting, passing make a combination for it?

but aside from these easy to pick examples, I think the worst cases are in mental attributes that work in combination. For a player to be creative, he has to have alsmost all mental attributes... Anticipation, Decision, Vision, composure, teamwork, flair... all these work together for a creative midfielder.. could just be creativity

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22 minutes ago, Ampalaea4 said:

Still even in the corner scenario, player must also have good crossing in combination with good corner attribute.

Corners and Crossing are two very different things and there is no need to have good crossing ability with a good corner attribute.  Corners are just that - a dead ball situation from the corner flag.  Crossing is done on the run, sometimes when under pressure from an opponent.  Technique may be useful for both, but for a good corner kick taker all you really need is a good Corners attribute.

34 minutes ago, Ampalaea4 said:

but aside from these easy to pick examples, I think the worst cases are in mental attributes that work in combination. For a player to be creative, he has to have alsmost all mental attributes... Anticipation, Decision, Vision, composure, teamwork, flair... all these work together for a creative midfielder.. could just be creativity

I'd suggest that low Teamwork could be desirable for a creative player.  Someone who can think outside of the box rather than sticking to instructions.

Anyway, sure for a creative midfielder you could say all those attributes work together, along with Technique, Passing, Determination et al and call it "creativity".  But if all we have is a "Creativity" attribute, how do we find Central Defenders with good Composure, Anticipation, Decisions and Teamwork for example?

As a starting point though, we still come back to the highlighted attributes for a role.  That can be taken a step further to consider player "DNA" - commonality of just a few attributes found throughout your squad.  For example perhaps we may want an aggressive, hard working team.  Thus a squad "DNA" may become all players having good levels of Aggression, Determination and Work Rate.  Individual roles are then focussed on to build the team, so once all your players have the DNA you target Defenders with decent Marking, Tackling, Anticipation and Positioning in addition to their DNA.  Tricky Wingers get Dribbling, Balance, Agility, Acceleration and Crossing as well as the DNA.  And so on.

This is just one technique of how to go about squad building, but it still all comes back to simply looking at highlighted attributes for a role, looking at those combinations and building from there.

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57 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Corners and Crossing are two very different things and there is no need to have good crossing ability with a good corner attribute.  Corners are just that - a dead ball situation from the corner flag.  Crossing is done on the run, sometimes when under pressure from an opponent.  Technique may be useful for both, but for a good corner kick taker all you really need is a good Corners attribute.

Which attribute governs a wide indirect free kick? Guide reads that Free kicks only applies to direct Free kicks.  Wide free kicks are like corners yet Crossing governs them. See, you made what seems like a legit point... And then SI makes crossing govern dead-ball indirect free kicks and this whole point is invalidated. It makes no sense that on-the-run crossing and dead-ball indirect free kicks are governed by Crossing, while dead-ball crosses from corners are governed by Corners.

 

Free Kick Taking              

 

This reflects how good at taking free kicks the player is. It solely applies to direct shots at goal; indirect free kicks are governed by other technical attributes like Crossing

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5 hours ago, herne79 said:

so on.  Yes it can get confusing if you really delve deeply but that can also lead us into over thinking things and honestly (I'm not trying to be rude here) it sounds to me that you kind of are.  Take a step back, it really doesn't need to be that complicated

Sometimes I do. Most if the time, I am playing this way

 

 

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5 hours ago, Jervaj said:

But then you see that defenders dont get it highlighted at all.

Attributes that are highlighted are considered key or secondary attributes. It doesn't mean that it's not used at all - just that there are more important attributes ahead of it.

5 hours ago, Jervaj said:

Here we have a similarish issue in that the concept is clear, the problem is the practical applications because you dont really know when it trigers. As you said for different teams different rounds may count as "big". Then you have questions like Are all rivalries are big matches? Does facing a much more reputable team count as a big match? 

Still the same answer as before, tbh.

Quote

In leagues when you are fighting for relegation/promotion what matches count as big?

As I mentioned, games that can decide league positions (which obviously includes sealing a safe spot/promotion vs relegation/no promotion) are big matches.

 

 

Here's SI's answer on it:

 

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il y a 40 minutes, iAlwaysWin a dit :

Don't know why anybody gives these type of topics the time of day, not to be rude. But every attribute is needed and i take into account many different attributes when judging a players talent and suitability to a role, there really isn't a debate worth arguing here.

Every attribute in FM is needed because the game is written in a way that requires them. :brock: It's not quite the topic at hand: here people are empirically discussing whether it's useful to have that so many (or so few) different attributes in FM. It's a more meta question about how FM is conceived and written.

Il y a 9 heures, swansongs a dit :

As a researcher I don't think about "Decisions" in isolation. The question is always why a player makes decisions that are interpreted as being good or bad in a game. Do they lack the vision or anticipation to recognise their options, the composure to make the right choices under pressure (or concentration to do so under no pressure), poor teamwork or flair that makes them selfish or too ambitious for their skillset etc. The Decisions attribute itself feels too generic in application, and rather redundant given all the other qualities can assign players.

As you point out, a lot of the qualities you look for are represented by pairs of overlapping attributes. There's a lot of that on the mental side. There's no real reason why Agg/Det/Wrk/Bra/Twk needs to be 5 distinct attributes in each player profile. While you say they're important they all tend to be weighted very low (or zero weighted) against a player's CA value which is our general measure of player ability. Each one in isolation does very little to effect how your player will play in the match engine. The list could easily be pared down by one or two with no loss of "personality" of players.

To be honest and now that you and others said it, Decisions has got to be one of the most vague and blurry attributes in FM despite having a colossal cost in CA. After all, what is a good decision? What does the devs at SI think is a good decision? Are the devs at SI able to write and implement in FM what a good decision is? Is FM able to reflect the intents of the devs (not an innocent question considering bugs exists notably by virtue of escaping the devs' foresight)? Do you even agree with the devs' definition of a good or bad Decisions, nevermind agree with FM's representation of a good Decision?

You could also read (or write) that a player who has to decide to shoot or pass could forego a "Decisions" attribute with say, some Vision (ability to spot a team mate/an opportunity), a bit of Anticipation (ability to predict an outcome), a dash of Composure (not panicking under defensive pressure), and a touch of Teamwork (not being selfish and choosing the best action for the team). You wouldn't necessarily need Decisions to be a thing depending on how you write the game.

I do understand that SI intentionally tends to write some things in FM to be intentionally blurry or vague, unlike (to my knowledge) most other strategy games where if you want a precise info with a formula and numbers attached to it, you can get it. Then you add new features each season that explicit things that already were in the game but not necessarily obvious to non-seasoned players. :lol:

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Of course there's debate to be had. We could just as easily argue for the value of having more attributes. Maybe split heading contact/timing and heading accuracy? Clear up confusion with goalkeeping distribution with throwing distance (currently derived from Strength) alongside Throwing (the accuracy)? FIFA uses long passing and short passing as distinct different attributes. Instead of just a single 1-20 range for a player's ability with each foot why not do separate value for every technical attribute with each foot? Finally the player who can cross equally well with both feet but not pass or shoot with his left can be represented in fullest detail!

The attributes in FM are not some perfect list by which players are naturally, objectively judged. They're a subjective set of criteria with which we try to translate performances irl into performances in a match engine. The definitions and uses of the attributes aren't static, Adaptability has had a few new uses heaped onto it in recent versions as new systems for player development found their way into the game.

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I've been playing these games since the first Championship Managers in the early 90s. I used to be frustrated by not being able to fully understand and quantify everything; why is this player with bad attributes playing well? Why did my striker with finishing 20 just miss three sitters? TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT THIS ATTRIBUTE DOES!!1! etc. 

Even though FM is regarded as a kind of "spreadsheet game", there's really a lot of nuances and a huge human element. Even though everything is being run by numbers and equations, if you, as a player, aren't told the whole truth about the underlying maths, your brain starts making up its own conclusions and stories. And those stories become much more human than if you were told the actual equations. 

And this is where the magic lies. We all have a lot of knowledge and experience with football, and we apply all that to Football Manager as an extra layer to what's going on from a technical perspective. We turn these names and numbers into actual characters and spin stories that are a combination of what actually happens under the hood and all our real life experience with football. 

That's why the games need to keep some kind of mystery about what's going on in the engine. If you turn football into numbers and equations, it's not football anymore. 

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3 hours ago, iAlwaysWin said:

Don't know why anybody gives these type of topics the time of day, not to be rude. But every attribute is needed and i take into account many different attributes when judging a players talent and suitability to a role, there really isn't a debate worth arguing here.

+1

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4 ore fa, iAlwaysWin ha scritto:

Don't know why anybody gives these type of topics the time of day, not to be rude. But every attribute is needed and i take into account many different attributes when judging a players talent and suitability to a role, there really isn't a debate worth arguing here.

Because let's be honest, the difference between 14 Decisions, 13 Composure and 12 Decisions, 14 Composure isn't something you're ever gonna notice or appreciate.

And that's not even going to take into account the discrepancies in I/O between TC and ME, meaning your top-level DLP will misplace passes or play backpasses as if he were a banana-footed Sunday League "kick anything that comes your way" DM, while a League One DM will have a Xavi-esque game in a FA Cup match, better if against your 150M midfielders. Just becuase "numbers" or because your tactics isn't what you think it is and has so many flaws any average side can cause problems.

So yeah, there IS a valid reason to suggest streamlined VISIBLE attributes. All those we have can still exist under the hood, but I wouldn't oppose a more "generic" assessment with fewer macro-attributes.

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Il y a 5 heures, swansongs a dit :

Instead of just a single 1-20 range for a player's ability with each foot why not do separate value for every technical attribute with each foot? Finally the player who can cross equally well with both feet but not pass or shoot with his left can be represented in fullest detail!

To be honest and while it's a different can of worms, players in FM struggle to use their weaker foot even when it makes sense to do so. Obviously not every two footed player is like Ousmane Dembelé who uses more or less both feet equally (something like 20/20 for his left and 19/ for his right), but you have players like C. Ronaldo who hardly uses his weaker foot in FM while IRL and even if not as accurate, he can shoot quite hard with it if the opportunity arises. Coupled with the high cost of having both feet, I've noticed that if you play long enough saves a lot of world-class regen/newgen players are way better served by having an extra couple of points in basically any important attribute for their role than having an even reasonable second foot, nevermind having both feet. I'd even say that for an attacking player, even inverted, being able to use only one foot (à la Robben) is completely worth it if it means your Acceleration and Pace go from a respectable 16 or 17 to an untouchable 19 or 20.

In other words, weak foot training is basically not worth it most of the time, and IME most players hardly take advantage of their "strong" second foot in the ME, except if they're players like O. Dembelé with above 18 with either foot. It's more of a crutch if there's really no other option but to use the weaker foot. I've actually messed with those values as an experiment on wide players: there's a big gap in behaviour when they're under and above 18; in FM20 the 3D player almost looks confused when he's able to perfectly use both feet! :lol: 18 is one of the threshold numbers in FM; for example that's where you go from Accomplished to Natural in a position, from Strong to Very Strong on you weak foot. Maybe I just don't see it, but being very one footed is nowhere near the issue it could (should?) be; almost an advantage if the CA is used in more useful attributes.

I've digressed a lot now

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As a manager who has been starting to worry a bit less about tactics and a bit more about how players can carry out tactics, I have found this to be a fascinating discussion to read.

I can agree that there probably isn't a need to have an attribute for

  • Penalty-Taking (How can you know who the best Penalty-Taker is if only 2 or 3 people in the team take penalties? How many other attributes could go an ENTIRE GAME and not be used even once?) or 
  • Kicking (tbh I don't really care if my gk has the ability to kick the ball all the way to the opposing gk).
  • Similar idea with Throwing.

Good Penalty-takers, Kickers, and Throwers (and Long Throw specialists) can all be represented by ppms.

On the other hand, there are attributes that really have to stay:

  • A Corners attribute makes more sense because corners often lead to a goal. (I'm not saying, btw, that it's impossible to represent good corner-takers without the attribute, I'm only saying that the attribute makes sense.)
  • The mental attributes also really all need to stay. I do think each one is important. For example, people assume that Teamwork and Work Rate are the same, but clearly they are not. You can have a player like Mesut Ozil, with good Teamwork but low Work Rate.
  • As another example, Aggression and Work Rate are not the same. I want players that have high Work Rate to quickly get to the position they are supposed to be in and be defensively compact, but I do not necessarily want players to have high Aggression, which will cause them to abandon the defensive shape in order to chase whoever has the ball!
  • I also saw at least one person argue that Decisions is not important. But anyone who plays football IRL will tell you that it's important. Have you ever seen a player inexplicably hoof the ball to the other side of the field while under no pressure and thus give the ball away for free, instead of passing to an open teammate? Have you ever seen a player pass to a teammate that was being closed down instead of to the one that was wide open? Have you ever seen a player take a shot on instead of pass to a teammate that has a much better shot? No attribute can properly explain that, except Decisions. (Well, Teamwork can help explain the last one.) Some might say, "Well the player is selfish", but what's really happening is that the player THINKS they are making a good decision! Have you even seen a player put their hand up as an apology to their teammate after making a bad decision? Those are cases where the player KNOWS the decision was wrong, but they were just being selfish! Have you ever seen Kante at Chelsea? He ALWAYS passes even when one would argue it's better not to! So you really need Decisions and Teamwork both to explain all these player behaviors.

At this point I need to digress from the topic slightly, because...

At the end of the day, I would refer back to Jervaj's point, that clarification of the attributes is more important than the number of attributes itself.

  • For example, I only just recently understood that Anticipation is important for attackers because it affects how quickly they react to a through ball. I though only OTB was needed for that (because it's in the name--Off The Ball), but now I am realizing that OTB is more about whether a player will "make themselves free" in a tight space around the box and it's more about a player having the skill to stay on-side. But you still NEED anticipation. If even one of the two is low, then you do not have a player that should try to beat the offside trap. It took a long time for me to realize this, simply because the attributes are not explained well enough. The way Anticipation is explained right now, it seems more like a MIDFIELD and DEFENSIVE attribute only.
  •  Same with Concentration. I thought it was a DEFENSIVE attribute, dictating whether defenders will make mistakes late in the game. Over time, I have come to realize that is WRONG. Concentration is an attribute that affects how consistent a player is in the game. When a player misses an easy pass, it is not because they are a bad passer, it is because they lost Concentration! Sometimes an act that might seem like a bad Decisions is just a loss of Concentration!
  • Same with Passing. Does it govern all passing or only short passing. For a long time I thought it governed short passing, and Technique+Passing governed long passing. Over time, I finally realized that Passing governs both short and long passing. Technique is only about how easy the pass will be to control once it gets there! Technique also governs how good a pass with the outside of the foot would be.
  • Same with Command of Area and Rushing Out. Both of them have to do with how the gk deals with crosses and through balls. It took me a long time to understand that Rushing Out must be how the gk will respond if the threat is outside the box while Command of Area must be how the gk will react to a similar threat that is inside the box.
  • Same with Flair. Is Flair about the ability to do crazy things, or just the likelihood of doing crazy things, and dribbling is the ability? Does flair apply only to dribbling or does it also govern the likelihood of trying a strange type of pass? Or will ambitious passes be affected by Vision and Decisions only? Even after all these years, I still do not know. To try to answer the question, I look at a player like Messi. Messi has 20 Flair, but I don't see Messi trying ridiculous things (the way Neymar does). On the other hand, Messi is well-known for defense-splitting passes. But isn't that what Vision is for? Bottom line: I still do not know what Flair does.
  • Same with Vision. Is Vision only about your ability to spot a pass? or is it about your ability to see whether a pass or a dribble would make more sense? Is it the ability to know if you should delay a pass while waiting for a run to materialize? I'm just not sure, based on how the attribute has been explained.

Now, some people would say, "I already knew this, you're just an idiot." But isn't that the point? Even an idiot should be able to understand what the attributes do? Why do you have to be playing for years, as I have, to understand the difference between Consistency and Concentration? Even as someone who plays football, it took me a long time to figure out which attributes SI is using to communicate the things that I see on a real-life pitch. Some (like Tackling) are easier to understand than others. The only thing that is necessary for all these confusions to be gone is for the attributes to be explained better. Some people would say, does it matter? It does matter because it affects whether I see an attribute as important in a player or not. For example, because of how I understand what Concentration does, I realized it is important for all midfielders to have, not just defenders.

People think that clarifying the attributes will take mystery away, but the reality is that the game is hard enough on its own (for the bad players like me). Confusion about what the attributes do should not be a reason why the game is hard. I do check SI's attributes explanations every year so I know that they have improved. As vague as some of the descriptions may be, in the past they were even worse than they are now! I do not need to be given 100 situations in which Anticipation is useful, but for a game that is THE game of football simulation, a higher standard for explaining attributes should exist. What irks me is that, if you would just take the time to explain the attributes well, then you'd only have to do it once. People would be able to rely on it for a decade or more. In fact, I would say, if a player  on the forums can argue why an attribute should not exist, that could just mean you haven't done a good enough job of explaining what that attribute does. I actually think the time has come for SI to explain the attributes visually, as they have been doing with the tactics screen for a few years now. There should be a separate menu in the game whose sole purpose is to explain what attributes do. I mean, that's arguably the most important part of this entire game!

Edited by WizbaII
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I like the opinion for simplifying attributes. In a game I should be convinced about what it does. Last 2 versions were about setpieces and longshots. It was clear engine did have some bias for some attributes or not at all- it was all very random. For the wargames there are great examples about detailed combat tables being patched for 10 years and there are some simple algorithm games that have more realistic casualty, disabled rate.

If more attributes are needed then more in game codes-events- will be needed. It is big job.

Edited by baris28
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each player action is just a gamble... midfielder has tha ball and about to pass then the game does a "roll dice", this roll includes lot of attributes... anticipation, decision, composure, flair, vision, teamwork, passing, technique, concentration, agility, balance. All these modifyiers will roll... if you are "lucky" a mediocre player will do a good pass in the correct player... if you are "unlucky" a good player will do a bad pass.. and so on. eventually, in 1000 passes, the good player will do more good passes than mediocre player. Thats how the game is behind the curtain

Edited by Ampalaea4
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I think a big problem may be how players view the game here. As most players play on at least comprehensive highlights, you’re going to miss parts of the match. Mentals apply thousands of times every match, whereas a player can only use his technicals when he’s making a play on the ball. This will be lost playing with highlights, where seeing a composed player is much more difficult than one with blazing speed or great passer, especially as its events involving physicals and technicals like a cross from a winger who beat his man or a through ball that leads to a chance rather than the consistency that comes from mentals. If a full match is watched you can get a general guess at respective players mentals by how often they’re in the right place doing the right thing, but with highlights it’s not as much the case. 

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