Enforcing a european salary cap

[Samuel77]

I don't know if touching the currencies can influence the finances... Maybe by giving them all the same exchange rate along with everything else we've already talked about.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Samuel77

[Wolf_pd]

Exchange rate can help. Making them the same is not the way to go I think. I have considered changing all nations back to their pre-2002 currency in the Iron Curtain, but not sure about the effects.

Also, you really don't want to set the Turkish lira the same as the British pound

[Samuel77]

Haha! 

No, but I was thinking of reducing it for, say, countries that spend "too much".

It might be fun to reverse the order of things 

[Wolf_pd]

Foreign transfers should be hit by that.

Maybe I should do a setup like that.

[Roy Race 9]

8 hours ago, Samuel77 said:

Haha! 

No, but I was thinking of reducing it for, say, countries that spend "too much".

It might be fun to reverse the order of things 

 

8 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Foreign transfers should be hit by that.

Maybe I should do a setup like that.

I did do something like this even make 1 Euro equal to £1 did make a slight difference 

surely weakening the pound would sort out the dominance of the EPL pretty quickly rather than doing all the other things we have tried and then that should also help with EPL not signing so many overseas players ...cant believe I overlooked this 

[Wolf_pd]

12 hours ago, Roy Race 9 said:

surely weakening the pound would sort out the dominance of the EPL pretty quickly rather than doing all the other things we have tried and then that should also help with EPL not signing so many overseas players ...cant believe I overlooked this 

Same way here, but I got too much into 1988 mode which made me rethink doing all those currencies.

[Samuel77]

Do you think the old currencies (Florinn Franc, etc.) have an impact?

[Wolf_pd]

They will. Whether you use Euros, Francs or something, there will be some difference. You could create tiers with it. Pound extremely expensive, next level German Mark, French Franc, Spanish Peseta, Italian Lire, and then the rest. So transfers would be tiered that way as well.

[Samuel77]

OK thanks!
Since everything is based on the Pound Sterling can we lower it? I'm stuck on this, if we lower the Pound Sterling then we lower the other currencies? If so, wouldn't it be better to increase the others or even combine the two, lower the Pound Sterling and increase the others in order to balance everything out?

[Wolf_pd]

Pound Sterling is the base currency, so if you want to change everything, the best is to change the Pound Sterling. If you just want to change specific countries and leave others alone, you can better do the other nations and leave the Pound at 1.00

For a test I have set the Euro at 1.02, instead of 1.16 as 1.02 was the lowest Pound value I could find (2008 during the Financial Crisis), but I am pretty sure I am going to ruin the pound.

[Samuel77]

Do you mean that at 1.02 it will be ruined or that you want to lower it further?

[Wolf_pd]

Lower

First want to see the effect.

But the idea of tiers is also still playing in my head.

[Samuel77]

I'm launching a test where I've reviewed everything we've seen with 3 categories of teams (Top, Medium, Low) here are some screenshots. Everything is standardized to see where the gaps are widening.

 

Révélation

 

 

 

[Samuel77]

It doesn't work the way I want it to, in France or Italy it's fine but the English teams and some of the other teams are getting out of hand quickly.

I can't find out where their money comes from... So unfortunately I'm going to go on a case by case basis rather than a mass treatment.

[Samuel77]

I ran a test in the editor with England, Spain, Germany, Italy, France, the Netherlands and Scotland and UCL.
I haven't touched anything to see how it works.

UCL:
-Each year the winner earns about 123M

Révélation

Premier League :
-In 2020 the winner earns 70M
-In 2027 the winner earns 170M
-Each PL participant earns about 90M TV

Révélation

 

 

LaLiga:
-From the second year onwards the winner earns about 155M (note that it is not really the winner who earns the mos

Révélation

 

 

 

Bundesliga:
-Each year the winner earns about 110M

Révélation

 

Serie A:

-The winner earns about 170M 

Révélation

 

Ligue 1:
-In 2020 the winner earns 21M
-From 2021 the winner earns about 50M before dropping back down to 2025

Révélation

 

 

 

Eredivise: 
-The winner earns about 10M

Révélation

 

Scottish Premier League:
-Winner earns around 3M

Révélation

 

To this must be added the sponsors and the balance of each club.
As you can see, there is a huge gap between the leagues.

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Samuel77

[Roy Race 9]

my chance to test is on hold, but I was seeing benefits in having teams on the same sponsorship deals

I have also have the same prize money/tv money throughout the top leagues 

also setting those elites rep to be much lower too

[Wolf_pd]

Well, I have found an extra solution for my problem.

As some of the richer teams also have debt at the same time, I have decided to help them offload that debt. It only means their balance gets lowered with the same amount

Debt doesn't really have a role for the big teams, does it? I mean, whenever you change anything in there, it looks like the game looks at it and says 'oh, but we will rework it in something much lighter rightaway!'

[Roy Race 9]

3 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Well, I have found an extra solution for my problem.

As some of the richer teams also have debt at the same time, I have decided to help them offload that debt. It only means their balance gets lowered with the same amount

Debt doesn't really have a role for the big teams, does it? I mean, whenever you change anything in there, it looks like the game looks at it and says 'oh, but we will rework it in something much lighter rightaway!'

too true I have tried even using an IGE to saddle more debt and or putting in administration very quickly their debt is re financed to being lower in theory as it is spread over a longer period so they come out better than before

if I understand the first point lower the debt= lowering the balance too? amazing that

[Wolf_pd]

31 minutes ago, Roy Race 9 said:

if I understand the first point lower the debt= lowering the balance too? amazing that

No, that's what I do. I relieve them from their debt, but by removing balance. Bringing back English football back to the late 80's dark ages

[Roy Race 9]

On 05/06/2021 at 08:53, Wolf_pd said:

No, that's what I do. I relieve them from their debt, but by removing balance. Bringing back English football back to the late 80's dark ages

All for that the game seems  massively loaded towards the EPL so addressing that is the priority if we want a fairer playing field 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Roy Race 9

[Wolf_pd]

5 hours ago, Roy Race 9 said:

All for that the game seems  massively loaded towards the EPL so addressing that is the priority if we a fairer playing field 

It is geared towards the EPL as the EPL is overloaded with money. Seeing the results of the last few years it does make sense. The only team that goes against FM logic for most of the times is PSG. PSG should have won more based on the FM money scale.

[Samuel77]

I noticed something interesting, in the editor I reduced the PL winnings considerably (70M for the winner) and by running a test in the editor the UCL winnings go from 120M to 100M without me touching it. It would seem that this is a mechanism where everything is linked, ideally we should find out what determines the amount of sponsors.

[Wolf_pd]

4 hours ago, Samuel77 said:

I noticed something interesting, in the editor I reduced the PL winnings considerably (70M for the winner) and by running a test in the editor the UCL winnings go from 120M to 100M without me touching it. It would seem that this is a mechanism where everything is linked, ideally we should find out what determines the amount of sponsors.

Oooh, that's interesting! Also, I need to look at those winnings.

[Roy Race 9]

On 06/06/2021 at 15:56, Samuel77 said:

I noticed something interesting, in the editor I reduced the PL winnings considerably (70M for the winner) and by running a test in the editor the UCL winnings go from 120M to 100M without me touching it. It would seem that this is a mechanism where everything is linked, ideally we should find out what determines the amount of sponsors.

that is very interesting as I set up own files for UCL etc so wont see that happening I suppose

[Samuel77]

I don't know, it's tests in the editor itself and not in-game.

But I wonder what would happen if we delete the UCL or just create a new one with a new ID.

I admit I'm fumbling, I have no lasting results on finances, the only ones that work are extreme but I can't find a balance.

[Roy Race 9]

@Wolf_pd sure previously you mentioned using the transfer window dates as a way to limit the number of foreign signings /free transfers only etc 

just about to have a play with this and wondering if you can show what you have it set up as please

 I presume these are league rules[0-5 etc] rather than being set to specific clubs ? eg you can impose the EPL can only make domestic signings during the January window rather than stipulating individual clubs 

cheers

[Wolf_pd]

I haven't implemented those as it was merely an idea. The idea is to set up one transfer window in the summer, between seasons and then set specific periods for specific types of transfers, like in in below example (period have not been edited there)

[Roy Race 9]

got you thanks

I have had a look at it, it is as suggested above limited to leagues rather than individual/specific teams as I want the elites to get the restrictions and allow the other clubs to carry on as normal and therefore close the gap even more 

I may well put a limit on the January window though like the idea of no foreign transfers there so makes clubs do their overseas signings in the summer and any tweaks in january have to come from the domestic market  

[Wolf_pd]

There are two more things I am looking at. Loan rules, so no more team farms. I am not sure what the respons of the game will be when you limit/abolish loans. The other one that looked interesting, but would need some extra study is to release players that haven't been registered. But the question is whether that rule works in a system where Second/U19 teams are allowed. Shove everything into second/U19 and you're done.

[Samuel77]

I don't have the editor in front of me but it is possible to prohibit or limit the number of B team players from taking part in first team matches. That plus limiting the age of players registered in the B/U19 team can have an impact I guess.

Or else apply this rule also to the B teams so that they also release their excess players.

[Wolf_pd]

Sounds reasonable.

[Roy Race 9]

16 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

There are two more things I am looking at. Loan rules, so no more team farms. I am not sure what the respons of the game will be when you limit/abolish loans. The other one that looked interesting, but would need some extra study is to release players that haven't been registered. But the question is whether that rule works in a system where Second/U19 teams are allowed. Shove everything into second/U19 and you're done.

that would result in teams having to develop their own youth and stop big clubs signing lots of players[especially young prospects] and not using them/loaning out  in an attempt to stop a rival/s signing them so thats a great idea IMO

12 hours ago, Samuel77 said:

I don't have the editor in front of me but it is possible to prohibit or limit the number of B team players from taking part in first team matches. That plus limiting the age of players registered in the B/U19 team can have an impact I guess.

Or else apply this rule also to the B teams so that they also release their excess players.

yes you can limit the number of B players etc IIRC

you can set rules here

and match day rules too here regarding how many B team players can be in match squad

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Roy Race 9

[EnigMattic1]

Had a quick skim through this but I couldn't find an answer (Apologies if I missed it). 

Squad selection rules. In the CPL, when registering a squad, you can't exceed $11.5k a week in wages for the registered 23 players. How do you implement something like that in the editor? 

[Roy Race 9]

its  briefly mentioned on page 1

there is an image I put up with squad selection rules-annual wage 

but  its bugged

 

[Roy Race 9]

@Wolf_pd

Hi

did you settle on the tax levels I have played around with most things just want to get that sorted and I should be good to go really would be interested to see what you settled on

cheers

[Wolf_pd]

5 hours ago, Roy Race 9 said:

@Wolf_pd

Hi

did you settle on the tax levels I have played around with most things just want to get that sorted and I should be good to go really would be interested to see what you settled on

cheers

I left them out in the end. The effect was minimal and the overall pruning of cash flows was much more visibly effective.

[Roy Race 9]

12 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

I left them out in the end. The effect was minimal and the overall pruning of cash flows was much more visibly effective.

I am glad its not just me then as on several sims I didnt see major improvement really 

I will probably just implement the same tax rates across the board for most nations to get that balanced fairness ..hopefully

[1980Dan]

Great thread and research...did anyone ever crack this and do a download for FM22?

[Slapt]

Not sure if I'm necroposting but this is the only detailed discussion I found about balancing AI teams. I would love to play in a db somewhat close (not identical) to the football I grew up with.

I tried a bit of all methods in FM20, 22 and now 23 and did many tests, results are mixed so I want to share and maybe get a bit of advice.

 

Limit foreign players

With a great help from user Yuko, I tried to reverse the Bosman entirely. Setting foreigner limits in every league and eliminating double citizenship. Rules are very strict and may be too limiting for the player but it definitely brought balance. French ligue had alternance between Monaco (with Mbappe) and PSG, likewise Bundesliga saw several Dortmund wins. Serie A was also won by Napoli, Atalanta and Fiorentina. EPL had more mixed results, possibly because I didn't change finances and the top teams have such a ridicolous amount of money. La Liga was won 2-3 times by Real Sociedad in addition to the usual 3.

CONS: with max 6 foreign players AI has difficulties in staffing a whole team, due to scarcity it's very hard to buy the best national players and the AI won't hire too many inferior players just to fill the team. It was common to see teams with 18-19 registered players out of 25 slots. If you add more foreign players per team (say 10/25) the AI fills all slots but the big teams are also less limited in buying all the best talents so there is less balance.

RESULT: it works, if you want to play like in the 80s/early 90s try it. Your ability to nurture a team of wonderkids will be hindered tho, and we all know it's the most fun thing to do in this game.

 

Lower money

I deleted all sugar daddies set 45M £ as equal tv money for every team in the big 5 league, same prizes of EPL in all of them, lowered sponsors to 110M £ for max reputation and deleted every debt and financial entry for every team. It kinda works except after a few years of simulation the sponsors generated by the game are a bit off compared to what I set in the editor. Sponsors for max rep is 110M but top english teams (9800 reputation) earns 150M, while italian teams earns 70-80M instead of 100. It's not about currency, because I also gave the euro an exchange of 1:1. Overall the financial inequality is greatly diminished.

CONS: the world is neither more fair nor more balanced, just poorer. Same teams keep winning. Paying wages eats up most of the budget for all teams, and since they are poorer they can no longer afford top players, so every big name stays at his club forever and ever (in 2030 you still see all top players in their IRL squad). Highest transfer is 60M, nobody can afford a 100+M player. While, small teams are richer (except in England) they still can't compete. Maybe balance will be achieved if I make the simulation longer but what's the point? I'll never play a career to 2050

RESULT: not good, I can try to lower player prices but in that case I fear big teams will return to buying everyone on sales even if they have less money.

 

Lower reputation

Reputation seems to be the most important thing in the game, everything from earnings, to player willingness to transfer depends on this. Apparently lowering reputation for top teams is the easiest answer to balancing the game, except after 2 years in game it's going to return to starting point. Winning earns reputation, reputation makes winning easier, it's a snowball effect. A possible solution is to fine tune it every year with IGE but this is annoying and also not really a permanent fix.

 

Financial Fair play

I have no idea how this thing works. In the lower money example mentioned above I see all big teams are barely even in their budgets but their FFP is still in positive for like 500M, without sugar daddies or anything. It seems useless.

 

Salary cap

Don't. AI is braindead and will routinely send his best players away even if has 100M left to spend under the cap. It's not even fun to play if you can build a dream team just by waiting and hiring them as free agents.

It's balanced though, I saw lots of small teams win in EPL, Serie A, Liga, etc.. Too bad the squad building lacks any rationale under this condition. Also, since everybody is always available for transfer, prices are the cheapest.

 

 

TL;DR no, apparently there isn't a way to balance the game witouth getting annoying results somewhere else. I'm stubborn enough to keep trying and very open to advice though.

 

 

[Samuel77]

Thanks for sharing!

I haven't really tried it long term but there are a few options that can have an influence. As you say the FFP is a conundrum for me too and the Salary Cap seems to work every other time.

1 - However, on the salary side there is an option that prevents signing a player above a certain salary, it is feasible to set a maximum salary for foreign players as well as national players. There is also the option to raise this amount for certain players.

 

2 - There are also bonuses that can be given to teams that play national players in the first team.  I'm not sure how this works but it is conceivable that by granting this bonus only at the end of the championship with a high number of games played the less wealthy teams playing national players would be favoured at this level compared to the behemoths such as Real, Man City, Paris and others.

 

 

But it's true that for several years I haven't found anything that satisfies me perfectly...

Edited January 17, 2023 by Samuel77

[Roy Race 9]

1 hour ago, Samuel77 said:

Thanks for sharing!

I haven't really tried it long term but there are a few options that can have an influence. As you say the FFP is a conundrum for me too and the Salary Cap seems to work every other time.

1 - However, on the salary side there is an option that prevents signing a player above a certain salary, it is feasible to set a maximum salary for foreign players as well as national players. There is also the option to raise this amount for certain players.

 

2 - There are also bonuses that can be given to teams that play national players in the first team.  I'm not sure how this works but it is conceivable that by granting this bonus only at the end of the championship with a high number of games played the less wealthy teams playing national players would be favoured at this level compared to the behemoths such as Real, Man City, Paris and others.

 

 

But it's true that for several years I haven't found anything that satisfies me perfectly...

what a superb word to describe the soulless corporate avarice 

 

[Samuel77]

Isn't it ? haha 

[Slapt]

13 ore fa, Samuel77 ha scritto:

Thanks for sharing!

I haven't really tried it long term but there are a few options that can have an influence. As you say the FFP is a conundrum for me too and the Salary Cap seems to work every other time.

1 - However, on the salary side there is an option that prevents signing a player above a certain salary, it is feasible to set a maximum salary for foreign players as well as national players. There is also the option to raise this amount for certain players.

 

2 - There are also bonuses that can be given to teams that play national players in the first team.  I'm not sure how this works but it is conceivable that by granting this bonus only at the end of the championship with a high number of games played the less wealthy teams playing national players would be favoured at this level compared to the behemoths such as Real, Man City, Paris and others.

 

 

But it's true that for several years I haven't found anything that satisfies me perfectly...

This is very interesting, thank you.

In theory it should be possible to use this to tweak the "lowered money option" so that clubs no longer spend 90% of their budget on wages and the market is no longer frozen. At the same time giving the national player bonus should over time give a money advantage to smaller teams.

Finding the perfect equilibrium would require a lot of trials and errors. If only AI was a bit smarter all of this would be solved more quickly through the total salary cap.

 

[Slapt]

Update

I ran another little test yesterday with some encouraing results. I lowered transfer prices a little and used a less strict version of the lowered money (50M tv money for everyone + 50M prize for winning the league, sponsorship capped at 150M for max rep) and 300M salary cap (sounds too high but keep in mind AI tends to stop far lower than the max amount).

Market is slowed but no longer frozen. Top clubs are still top clubs but I saw Lazio and Atalanta win Serie A, Villareal replacing Atletico Madrid as the third strongest in la Liga (and buying Neymar), Rennes won Ligue 1 twice. EPL is still a duopoly of Liverpool and City but Arsenal managed to win once. Bundesliga is hopeless

RESULT: it's not perfectly balanced but inequality is greatly reduced.

[Wolf_pd]

One thing that I tightened up in my test was by setting the max counted investment back to 70M from 110M. Did wonders for the English competitions. Their teams can close up any financials gaps with the team owner (I think) adding more money. By lowering the max investment some teams slowly end up losing some money, although it will take some time before they realise wild spending is no longer an option.

[Slapt]

I've been thinking, is there a way to set a soft salary cap with huge fines if you violate it? The FFP rule only affects total yearly wage rise
In squad registration rules there is only the hard salary cap that completely prevents a team to register new players over the wage limit.