Enforcing a european salary cap

[Xander2000]

As the title goes, I'm wondering whether it's possible to establish a european salary cap. I want it to be imposed on all 55 UEFA nations. The main idea is essentially to bridge the gap between the leagues and make both european football and domestic leagues more unpredictable. I'm relatively handy with the editor, but I have never dived into salary caps and how they're installed so to speak so for this one I'm going to need help.

Thanks for reading. Best regards.

 

[Wolf_pd]

As far as I know, you can only set the rules per nation.

[Samuel77]

Unfortunately I believe that we have to go nation by nation.

Setting these rules in UEFA competitions must undoubtedly have an influence, but to what extent?

[Wolf_pd]

Setting them at UEFA competition level will only apply to the teams in the competition. No other teams.

[Samuel77]

That's right.

Finally modifying the rules of each nation individually isn't so complicated but this year several championships have some mistakes which obliges to redo them entirely, which makes a huge and long work, I think in particular of Belgium and Spain 

[Wolf_pd]

Belgium was always an issue as the competition is particular complex anyway (whoever thought that out should take a good look in the mirror....).

[Samuel77]

Yes I know...

For the salary cap to work, every nation must be involved, otherwise it is not fair.

It would be great if there was a way to do it for everyone at once (as for the number of foreigners allowed per nation). It is my "dream" to create a new European system without Bosman rules, with limited wages.

A kind of Super League with English clubs that have players who are... English! A system of finance that gives even small nations a chance and forces the "giants" to recruit locally.

[joaquin87]

I try to made in big leagues but it doesn't seem to matter

 

 

Clubs continue to exceed the limit. Is this the right way to go?

[Wolf_pd]

Maybe check if it can be used in the FFP rules instad as a max squad salary?

[Xander2000]

On 22/12/2020 at 10:04, Wolf_pd said:

Setting them at UEFA competition level will only apply to the teams in the competition. No other teams.

Sorry for the late reply, but this could do! 

But would it require me to completely redo the CL and EL formats? As much as I'd like a salary cap, I think redoing all of that would cost me too much of a headache. 

[Wolf_pd]

There are several close to lifelike versions available for CL and EL. Editing those should be doable.

Check the UEFA revival threads.

[Mission00I]

On 20/04/2021 at 23:03, joaquin87 said:

I try to made in big leagues but it doesn't seem to matter

 

 

Clubs continue to exceed the limit. Is this the right way to go?

Did you ever complete a database like this? As i would be extremely interested in seeing how you did it.

Or why it wasnt working.

EDIT:

Nevermind, i saw you made a database already!

Edited May 3, 2021 by Mission00I

[Roy Race 9]

11 hours ago, Xander2000 said:

Sorry for the late reply, but this could do! 

But would it require me to completely redo the CL and EL formats? As much as I'd like a salary cap, I think redoing all of that would cost me too much of a headache. 

you dont have to redo the whole comps mate

its pretty easy to do but IMO on previous tests just in nation rules let alone continental imposing salary caps has no effect it doesnt seem to work

Edited May 3, 2021 by Roy Race 9

[Wolf_pd]

The effect is there, however, you need to set the cap very low, say 50-60 million per year max to see effect in England and to see an European wide effect you would have to go even lower, 20-30s range probably.

It is probably also possible that if you change this for the EC1 you will only see it applied in the country you are playing and the ones you have loaded and not in the other ones. Seeing that in my Iron Curtain game.

[Samuel77]

This means that even if we do all the leagues but only select some of them in the game, those that are not active do not take into account the new rules?
That's what I thought in my tests... 

 

EDIT: To be more precise, the changes only work if we select them at the beginning of a game?

Edited May 5, 2021 by Samuel77

[Wolf_pd]

2 hours ago, Samuel77 said:

This means that even if we do all the leagues but only select some of them in the game, those that are not active do not take into account the new rules?
That's what I thought in my tests... 

 

EDIT: To be more precise, the changes only work if we select them at the beginning of a game?

Yes, you need to select them all. Found this when testing the Iron Curtain and spotting Valencia buying East German players even though I clearly told Spain they couldn't. Load Spain and no longer they go robbing Hansa Rostock of Tony Kroos.

[Roy Race 9]

even if you select wage caps etc the game is geared towards the elite teams

eg I have done things like this before 

1.Impose a wage cap e.g. works out at £1m a week for EPL - the elite clubs still sign the best players who agree a lower wage than they were on before even e.g.  Sancho joins Liverpool and has wage of 50k a week or even if the elite clubs exceeded the wage cap nothing happens to them

2. Impose FFP rules- when it comes up to the renewal date when FFP is calculated the 'elite teams' will  miraculously get a cash injection to allow them to meet FFP e.g. a few new sponsorship deals etc etc they never fail the test

3.Even put an elite club in administration+ put them in massive debt etc [even use an IGE to make this happen just before the season reset/calculation date] as that date happens... they will get given loans/debt is restructured to stop them receiving any punishments...I did this to a top elite EPL side 4 times in a season each time the game bailed them out !!!

[Wolf_pd]

3 hours ago, Roy Race 9 said:

even if you select wage caps etc the game is geared towards the elite teams

eg I have done things like this before 

1.Impose a wage cap e.g. works out at £1m a week for EPL - the elite clubs still sign the best players who agree a lower wage than they were on before even e.g.  Sancho joins Liverpool and has wage of 50k a week or even if the elite clubs exceeded the wage cap nothing happens to them

2. Impose FFP rules- when it comes up to the renewal date when FFP is calculated the 'elite teams' will  miraculously get a cash injection to allow them to meet FFP e.g. a few new sponsorship deals etc etc they never fail the test

3.Even put an elite club in administration+ put them in massive debt etc [even use an IGE to make this happen just before the season reset/calculation date] as that date happens... they will get given loans/debt is restructured to stop them receiving any punishments...I did this to a top elite EPL side 4 times in a season each time the game bailed them out !!!

The way to fix 2 is to have a limit on external capital coming in. I had a bit of fun with that and suddenly England was super competitive. I think it was that FFP rule (max loss of 5M and max 10M investment) with a 50M salary cap. Looked really interesting.

[Roy Race 9]

imposed a 70m cap[Squad selection rules+ FFP too] yet every team is exceeding it but gets told they comply with FFP

[Samuel77]

In the transfer section there is a way to set a maximum salary. I did the test by adding also a limit of foreigners per team and the result is really satisfying! After two years the salaries have really gone down and the players are going back to their home country, and there are some leagues that are becoming successful whereas they were minor leagues.

[Roy Race 9]

4 hours ago, Samuel77 said:

In the transfer section there is a way to set a maximum salary. I did the test by adding also a limit of foreigners per team and the result is really satisfying! After two years the salaries have really gone down and the players are going back to their home country, and there are some leagues that are becoming successful whereas they were minor leagues.

Hi

Glad that worked for you

I set that up too and that is only for new transfers it doesnt address current wages and in tests I ran the result is the opposite-

namely 'top' players eg Haaland/Sancho/Messi/Alaba/Mbappe all agree to the lower wage[much less than on currently] in order to join clubs like Man City/Liverpool etc

also the secondary effect is the 'elite' clubs are now better off in that they pay less for wages have more profit and can spend more on transfers

[Roy Race 9]

Here is an example of how it doesnt work

Wage cap of 70m in EPL

Take Everton spending 2.4m a week on wages that is 124m a year way over the cap

look how much the game says that 2.4M a week equates to for a year....23.33 M LOL

[Roy Race 9]

and this is the best bit... it says -''the club are expected to make a £2.14B profit in a year'' LOL[image above clearly shows profit projected will be £53m]

''The total wage expenditure is below £70M..''  so as its below £70m its exempt from FFP 

it clearly shows  its over £2.39m a week thats over £120m a year nearly double the limit

its broken 

[Roy Race 9]

@Wolf_pd can you show what your set up was/is in FFP settings as you can see my results are just bizarre

[Samuel77]

As it seemed unclear to me I limited the number of foreign players and limited the squad to 25 players for example.

In this example, this does not prevent Paris Saint-Germain from buying Pogba and other French stars, but it allows Lyon or Monaco to buy O. Dembélé and F. Mendy. With this example we can see that the forces are balanced.

As for the Salary Cap, it seems to me that there is an option for clubs to release their players. If my memory serves me right, last year it worked.

[Roy Race 9]

yes mate there are various things re squad numbers and I address it by match rather than squad rules eg elite clubs can only have 1 non EU player in match squad 

but this thread is regards salary cap and everything I have shown above indicate this does not work

many clubs break the annual wage by a lot but there are no penalties and as the images above show the feedback is they are NOT breaking FFP but they clearly are

[Wolf_pd]

Took a while to find it.

And the specific screenshot

The biggest issue for me at first seemed to be that the clubs kept on hoarding money via outside investment. This prevents that mostly.

[Roy Race 9]

9 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Took a while to find it.

And the specific screenshot

The biggest issue for me at first seemed to be that the clubs kept on hoarding money via outside investment. This prevents that mostly.

cheers 

That is exactly what I am doing 

I believe I expected to see punishments for clubs exceeding the wage limit, but am I right in assuming that what happens it is the squad selection where you see this working -namely a club cannot select all their high paid players if they exceed in my example 1.3m a week? so a club could in theory pay 10m in wages but they can only pick a 25 man squad that amounts to 1.3m 

I always try to get a game set up with a fairer DB -prize money etc etc 

it is almost impossible to stop the elites generating huge income through sponsorship[even if you remove deals/increase debt- they manage to gain more deals sometimes worth more!!]

but this seems the way to go

I also impose match day rules for the elites eg 1 non EU player in match squad its a pity we didt have the wage cap for the match squad - perhaps 1 player over 200k a week this IMO would be a great option

Edited May 7, 2021 by Roy Race 9

[Roy Race 9]

@Wolf_pd

Have you ever tried the expenditure cap? am I right in thinking this a new option 

I also have found in previous attempts the yearly wage rise/threshold doesnt give the result I am looking for as in game in the league rules you will see a proviso that the restriction applies unless there is an upturn in revenue... and I always saw the clubs I was trying to rein in get that upturn 

also have you ever tried using these options re wage caps and % of income allowed to be spent on wages

cheers

[Wolf_pd]

I don't think the expenditure cap was in FM20 where I was testing this stuff, so no.

Btw, good point about removing income, I will keep an eye on that while editing.

[Roy Race 9]

10 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

I don't think the expenditure cap was in FM20 where I was testing this stuff, so no.

Btw, good point about removing income, I will keep an eye on that while editing.

yes I have not seen this before wonder if this is a way of stopping mega rich clubs from spending? they can have billions coming in but if they cant spend it

also wondering if the tax rules might be interesting to address the disparity ?

surely this is for clubs rather than individuals 

 

[Wolf_pd]

That's an interesting one. A sort of super richt tax,

[Roy Race 9]

18 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

That's an interesting one. A sort of super richt tax,

as a test imposing a 'super rich tax' set at 70% for higher earners

lower earners are 20%

Man Utd pay this at the end of the 20/21 season all their super sponsorship deals are smashed even when they announce new deals the following season it is swallowed up in tax 

now I am going to tweak this and see how capping high end plays out over a few years

[ran a quick sim with the top 6 relegated to second tier as punishment for ESL shenanigans and liverpool/city go up straight away but the other 4 are languishing in mid table]

 

[Samuel77]

It looks good! If I understand correctly it should be done country by country if we want to extend it to the European level?

I also have a DB where ESL clubs are demoted and deprived of 2 years of European competition. As for the finances I had added a big debt but your technique seems more efficient!

[Roy Race 9]

17 hours ago, Samuel77 said:

It looks good! If I understand correctly it should be done country by country if we want to extend it to the European level?

I also have a DB where ESL clubs are demoted and deprived of 2 years of European competition. As for the finances I had added a big debt but your technique seems more efficient!

yes it would be country by country for the 'super tax'

I have removed the dirty dozen from UEFA comps and have them in a poorly funded ESL[if I just banned them from UEFA comps they had a weeks rest to prepare for the domestic games- this way they are playing more games for less money and domestic form suffers too👍]

 also increased the finances of UEFA comps so after a couple of years with the above measures the 'elites' are reigned back in along with a wage cap for domestic leagues it means the domination is almost over for the 'big 6'

in a 5 year sim so far Liverpool have won 1 title but by a point from Wolves -EPL has been won by Everton, Leicester,Leeds so it seems to be working

 

also with the super tax it is just hitting the massive earners

[Roy Race 9]

think this is a tad high for a team who isnt raking it in so some tweaking is needed would be good to get some other users testing this to see what the results are and then put  the best option in place

my goal is fairness and a level playing field so it isnt the same boring teams over and over at the top, its getting there but it could be better

 

 

[Samuel77]

Could you show a screenshot of what you did in the editor?

Did you touch the "lower amount", "upper amount" and "capped amount"?

Edited May 11, 2021 by Samuel77

[Roy Race 9]

 

3 hours ago, Samuel77 said:

Could you show a screenshot of what you did in the editor?

Did you touch the "lower amount", "upper amount" and "capped amount"?

Here is what I did on first test

NB as with all editing 0 is the top division and so on[eg EPL is 0, Championship is 1 etc etc]

now there are already  corporation taxes set up initially in the DB- [there are 4 for England so I removed them  and replaced the entries as image 2]

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Roy Race 9

[Roy Race 9]

if you manage a squad [just took over a club on squad submission date] it wont let you exceed the wage cap

it stops you from submitting until you are under the amount

however I am seeing this for AI teams, and there is  no punishment that I can see when they do this?

[Samuel77]

Thank you! Does that mean it only works for the teams we control?

[Roy Race 9]

1 hour ago, Samuel77 said:

Thank you! Does that mean it only works for the teams we control?

the wage cap partly as I am only finding 1 or 2 AI clubs bypassing that cap

 

the'' super tax'' - corporation tax seems to work on all teams AI and user controlled

but we need others to try this for a couple of seasons to get some feedback on what works best

NB also seeing the AI elite clubs offloading several of their top players to counter the lack of 'huge income' and meet the wage cap

next test is to run  corporation taxes in all top nations only tried England/France at this stage, PSG taking an absolute kicking 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Roy Race 9

[Samuel77]

Thanks!

I will also do some tests. To make it equal I think you have to do exactly the same thing on each country because some countries pay more tax than others, I had read that the French Ligue 1 alone paid more tax than Serie A, PL, Bundesliga and LaLiga combined!

Probably a copy/paste from one country to all the others.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Samuel77

[Roy Race 9]

the overall tax the same may well be a very good idea

but it looks like the super tax goes after the super rich and thats where I believe we will see the best results for my project...operation- 'address the balance' aka 'smash the elite' 

I am also going to tweak it so it starts earlier than current game set up so I may well set it to start in 2019 so you then get to see immediate results as in my sims its the second season where it really kicks in, but I am using a custom start up date for lat May 2021 so that may well influence the first season 

I may just sim from a normal game start date in 2020 and see how that plays out

[Wolf_pd]

You set it at 500,000. Isn't that very low? I am trying to find a bit of a sweet spot for myself, where taxation will be hell, but at a level that those teams can still participate.

[Roy Race 9]

14 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

You set it at 500,000. Isn't that very low? I am trying to find a bit of a sweet spot for myself, where taxation will be hell, but at a level that those teams can still participate.

I have tried a few options [the max setting is 100m] when you go high the clubs being targeted pay much less in super tax so at this stage its trial an error and as you elude to finding that sweet spot 

probably we are on the same page I just want the rich getting lashed 

 

[Roy Race 9]

Been looking at leagues with a set up that is geared to distributing the 'top' players around and has a wage cap

The A League looks interesting-

so in theory by selecting this will it work on leagues like the EPL?

 

and the marquee limit does this mean a club can only have x amount on a max wage?

 

and what does this do exactly, as its set at £0

[Wolf_pd]

7 hours ago, Roy Race 9 said:

I have tried a few options [the max setting is 100m] when you go high the clubs being targeted pay much less in super tax so at this stage its trial an error and as you elude to finding that sweet spot 

probably we are on the same page I just want the rich getting lashed 

Yep, I probably started too high which means little to no impact. Also, I found out that due to player movement I accidentally gave Man City a 150M transfer bonus at the start of the game. That doesn't help either!

[Roy Race 9]

13 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Yep, I probably started too high which means little to no impact. Also, I found out that due to player movement I accidentally gave Man City a 150M transfer bonus at the start of the game. That doesn't help either!

lol they do need it

do you have any idea re the marquee players as outlined previously would this stop the big clubs getting all the top players 

[Wolf_pd]

Not sure. That could be an MLS or A-league only thing. Managed to fix that 150M transfer bonus, but I am busy pruning the millions. When you look into the various competitions you start to see the disconnect between some teams. In the Bulgarian competition, most teams have between 0,5M and 3,5M sponsorship,, with about 10M for the Sofia teams and then 65M for Ludogorets. Same for, say, Austria, all teams have about 25M max sponsorships and then Red Bull Salzburg....., 172M....This is silly.

[Roy Race 9]

7 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Not sure. That could be an MLS or A-league only thing. Managed to fix that 150M transfer bonus, but I am busy pruning the millions. When you look into the various competitions you start to see the disconnect between some teams. In the Bulgarian competition, most teams have between 0,5M and 3,5M sponsorship,, with about 10M for the Sofia teams and then 65M for Ludogorets. Same for, say, Austria, all teams have about 25M max sponsorships and then Red Bull Salzburg....., 172M....This is silly.

we seem to be doing the same things

Ive taken the average team in a league as a template for other income then set all the deals to be renewed and fixed amount then copied and pasted to all teams in that league

also eg England my plan is the FA/ EFL growing a pair abolishing the EPL bringing back Div 1 etc with all the TV money /prize money pooled for all leagues and reduced from the top down so the difference between top and bottom is much fairer 

EPL[sorry div 1] now has a TV deal of £50m a season for each club,  Div 2-  £35M Div 3- £20m 

also I have overhauled work permits as it is now the lower leagues are hammered its only the top leagues who can attract overseas players to meet the criteria

[so rules are in place as before for top division however lower divisions can sign players from virtually anywhere they are limited to only 4 overseas /non UK based players per season though ]

the result in sims is far better players being signed by lower league clubs due to their increased upturn in money 

and work permit issues now gone -

I have also changed club ownership 

so the day of  The sugar daddy is over 

with no chance of mega £££ takeovers 

the results so far are promising 

very interested to see your feedback too

 

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Roy Race 9