Still, very early but same old frustration like FM 20

[raktim0699]

Hi, I am into two games of my season with Man Utd. First game at home, we won against Sheffield United 3-0 so, I was impressed. We enjoyed 66 percent of possession and created the better chances, so we deserved our win. There is always confidence we will win a home match even if the opposition decides to park the bus, but the same does not apply to away fixtures. There is always anxiety creeps in, notably when my team moves the ball around in the opposition third while every single opposition player is at the edge of their penalty area. The margin for error is minimal. Suppose my players lose the ball deep at the edge of the opposition's penalty area. In that case, they either score a goal from a counter-attack, or my defender ends up getting a yellow for fouling their strikers because he is too quick for my defenders. This way, possession becomes your enemy when the opposition keeps ten players behind the ball, especially at an away match when everything seems to go against you. In the 2nd match away against Newcastle, I knew they would defend deep and play with five at the back, which they did (5-2-3). As my team is Manchester United, we enjoyed over 60 percent possession of the ball. Still, I had recurring thoughts that if we lose the ball at the very edge of their penalty area when they are defending with nine players in front of the goalkeepers, my defense will surely be in trouble if caught in transition. Luckily, we managed to score two goals in the first half, from the corner and the other from a penalty, and ended the first half with two goals. A couple of giveaways looked dangerous for them, but it did not lead to a goal. In transition, they were dribbling with fast players so, my players did foul them and got some cards as they can never win the ball when in one on ones against an opponent. The game ended with 2-2; we did not score any goal in the second half nevertheless enjoyed good possession like the first half. Two goals from the opposition came out of nowhere as expected, one from the counter and the other their goalkeeper kicked it long, and it went behind our backline, which their strikers capitalized on. How do you deal with such situations? Was my approach wrong? Is my tactic with Man Utd trying to play a possession type of football is not ideal? Are my defenders Maguire, Lindelof is the problem may lack good stats in concentration, decision, anticipation, and aggression? Are Man united better playing football where defenders have more protection, so they are not left defending one on ones like three at the back systems without getting isolated too much?

[Experienced Defender]

Where's the tactic (screenshot), to begin with?

[Justified]

1 hour ago, raktim0699 said:

We enjoyed 66 percent of possession and created the better chances, so we deserved our win.

 

1 hour ago, raktim0699 said:

This way, possession becomes your enemy when the opposition keeps ten players behind the ball, especially at an away match when everything seems to go against you.

 

1 hour ago, raktim0699 said:

As my team is Manchester United, we enjoyed over 60 percent possession of the ball. 

 

1 hour ago, raktim0699 said:

The game ended with 2-2; we did not score any goal in the second half nevertheless enjoyed good possession like the first half. 

Pep? Is that you?  

Possession stats mean nothing in isolation. Could be effective or ineffective possession, who knows? If I'm honest, if the possession stat is too high and I'm having trouble scoring then I would be worried. It means we're not penetrating.

What you're seeing in the match engine when you get countered on means you're not set up properly. Without seeing your tactic I'm going to assume you either have too many Support roles or attacking roles set up incorrectly.

[raktim0699]

Well, this would be my roles with possession-oriented instructions such as tempo being slower, passing being more gradual, focusing on some side depending on the opposition, and changing roles and duties sometimes. For example, changing DLF from attack to support or to F9, changing the duty of Mez from attack to support, or using RB on the same side as Mezzala as IWB(s), DLP sometimes changed to a Support role to let him come out more or change his role to DM (S). If the opposition lined up with two strikers, I might go HB (D) to build an extra man. Sometimes I play narrow or wide since it's a 4-1-4-1, and we have a playmaker in the middle; it stretches the pitch and creates more playing area for the playmaker. I would love to settle on some roles and duties changing slightly, but I want to know what works first always to go back to. In terms of pressing, since my defenders are not fast, I tend to keep a higher line but one with a cover duty. 

[raktim0699]

So far, come up against two opposition, Sheff and Newcastle, both playing five at the back. system (5-3-2 & 5-2-3). The first game against Sheff, since it was a home match and the first game of the season, I felt pretty positive but did not manage to score before late in the first half. Then, I changed the role of DLP(d) to HB(d) and sent my two defenders out wide, and changed one of their roles to ball-playing defenders with dribble more instructions. I was trying to access different spaces as well as create an angle and overload. I changed the duty of WB(s) to WB(A) with overlap at the same time changed my AP (s) to DLP on (S). After that, we scored two quick goals, and our play was much more secure.

[Justified]

My god. You're like Ranieri on acid.

You're going to have to settle a bit more then that. Feels like you're making massive changes constantly. Can you post an actual screenshot from the game of what you are playing with? I get the jist you want to play possession oriented football but you make so many changes I have no idea what you start with.

[raktim0699]

11 minutes ago, Justified said:

My god. You're like Ranieri on acid.

You're going to have to settle a bit more then that. Feels like you're making massive changes constantly. Can you post an actual screenshot from the game of what you are playing with? I get the jist you want to play possession oriented football but you make so many changes I have no idea what you start with.

This would be my base tactic initially what I had on mind

[Justified]

Ok, and you want a Possession tactic?

A few question marks here.

Why is Maguire BPD in a possession tactic? He is actively looking to play a riskier ball upfield.

Why DLFat? Your tempo is slow so he'll just be group hugging in the opposition box by the time the ball gets there.

What was the reasoning for Underlap Left? MEZ on attack? Just curious.

Prevent Short GK Distribution "can" work in a 433 however better teams will be able to play out against you and beat your initial press easily.

[raktim0699]

5 minutes ago, Justified said:

Maguire BPD in a possession tactic

Because he has trait such as brings ball out of defense and good ball playing statistics. From what i understand possession is about dominating space sometimes here in the middle two MEZ on attack could work with winger hugging the line with the Full backs coming narrow here acting as playmaker. So, that was my thinking maguire if have space go into midfield get extra men committed. 

 

9 minutes ago, Justified said:

DLFat? Your tempo is slow

Compare to last here, this year roles that plays in a crowded space such as DLF (A) F9(s) Or CF they would link well as more balls go through the middle nowadays. Possibly here could have used F9 or even support duty not sure.

 

11 minutes ago, Justified said:

What was the reasoning for Underlap Left? MEZ on attack? Just curious

Suppose the ball goes to the wing back instead of him going to the byline or aggressively looking for crosses he can look inside to the play maker if possible.

[Justified]

1 minute ago, raktim0699 said:

Because he has trait such as brings ball out of defense and good ball playing statistics. From what i understand possession is about dominating space sometimes here in the middle two MEZ on attack could work with winger hugging the line with the Full backs coming narrow here acting as playmaker. So, that was my thinking maguire if have space go into midfield get extra men committed. 

 

Compare to last here, this year roles that plays in a crowded space such as DLF (A) F9(s) Or CF they would link well as more balls go through the middle nowadays. Possibly here could have used F9 or even support duty not sure.

 

Suppose the ball goes to the wing back instead of him going to the byline or aggressively looking for crosses he can look inside to the play maker if possible.

Ok, but did you actually read what a BPDde does? Tries Risker Passing and Hold's Position. So basically the opposite of what you wanted to do. You do realize that if Maguire plays a a bog standard CD but has the trait that he'll bring out the ball out of defence, he'll do it anyways?

You're thinking of DLFsu. A DLF on Attack is going to push up against the opposition backline, mostly with his back to goal. You're not playing direct enough for that type of role tbh.

I actually don't think you need a MEZ in this system specifically. A simple CMat will do as the width is there from the Winger anyways. You could overload the right flank with players to draw attention, I'd just be worried you don't have enough central penetrating players to take advantage.

WBsu isn't specifically going to the byline though and isn't selected to Cross Often.

 

My solution to this conundrum? You need to read what roles do because you don't seem to understand fully what you're selecting.

[Experienced Defender]

Wide attacking width does not really go hand in hand with a possession-oriented style of football, because you need players to be closer together, not farther away.

Tight marking is far more suited for defensive styles of football that use bottom-heavy formations with a compact defensive shape and a low block. Yours is pretty much the opposite.

You also have a sort of overkill in out-of-possession instructions. With higher DL, higher LOE and counter-press under a high team mentality (Positive in this case), your manner of defending is already aggressive enough, so more urgent pressing and prevent short GKD are basically not necessary and are more likely to reduce space for your forwards than be helpful for defending. 

There are a couple of potentially problematic role partnerships as well, but they are less of an issue than those listed above. 

Last but not least, this Man Utd team does not look ideally suited for a possession-heavy style of play - primarily due to the type of forwards/strikers they currently have - so even if you create a "perfect" possession tactic, it may still fail to work in the way you hope/expect to see. 

[raktim0699]

Would you please care to tell me what sort of role can be used instead of a Target man on support like who has the same movement as them functions relatively similarly because Man Utd currently does not have a target man so, is it possible to use a different role. I am trying to go for 4-1-2-1-2

                                                                                                   AF(A)             TM(S)

                                                                                                              AM(S)

                                                                                                   DLP(S)            MEZ(A)

                                                                                IWB( A)                                              WB(S)

                                                                                                             HB(D) 

                                                                                             CD(D)                       BPD(D)

[Experienced Defender]

10 hours ago, raktim0699 said:

Would you please care to tell me what sort of role can be used instead of a Target man on support like who has the same movement as them functions relatively similarly because Man Utd currently does not have a target man so, is it possible to use a different role

For me, the most logical substitution for a TM would be DLF on support.

Btw, I fear that the rest of your latest (diamond 442) tactic could prove problematic apart from the TM role or striker partnership. 

And also keep in mind that IWB as a role is virtually ineffective in narrow formations (at least according to the in-game description). 

[frukox]

11 hours ago, raktim0699 said:

Would you please care to tell me what sort of role can be used instead of a Target man on support like who has the same movement as them functions relatively similarly because Man Utd currently does not have a target man so, is it possible to use a different role. I am trying to go for 4-1-2-1-2

                                                                                                   AF(A)             TM(S)

                                                                                                              AM(S)

                                                                                                   DLP(S)            MEZ(A)

                                                                                IWB( A)                                              WB(S)

                                                                                                             HB(D) 

                                                                                             CD(D)                       BPD(D)

I agree with @Experienced Defender's points. Using two wbs with two defenders might be a little tricky in defensive transitions. I'd keep an eye on that. AMs and DLPs will fight for space. MEZA s attacking passion with a WBS behind could make you vulnerable there. AF is a dribbling attacking role which is best for counter-attacking and direct styles. Do you think you can consistently find space behind deep opposition backline with a high block? 

Edited December 21, 2020 by frukox

[raktim0699]

5 hours ago, frukox said:

AF is a dribbling attacking role which is best for counter-attacking and direct styles. Do you think you can consistently find space behind deep opposition backline with a high block?

Does changing the role from IWB TO CWB(S) suffice? The reason was simple: if IWB during transition face comes through the middle and AF because of his aggressive nature go out wide, we have managed to create different movement patterns. With no wide players present in the formation, IWB does have a different sort of movement; he rarely sometimes come inside but stay and acts like a CWB, but the point of giving him the IWB was to allow him to work in harmony with AF if one goes wide other comes inside.

[raktim0699]

6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

keep in mind that IWB as a role is virtually ineffective in narrow formations (at least according to the in-game description).

Here, is our IWB on attack pretty much hugging the line, hardly a characteristics of a inverted player? Fred the DLP then launches the ball into the vacant space front of him.

[frukox]

36 minutes ago, raktim0699 said:

Here, is our IWB on attack pretty much hugging the line, hardly a characteristics of a inverted player? Fred the DLP then launches the ball into the vacant space front of him.

IIRC, an inverted wingback behaves like a normal wingback when there is no one in front of him or someone in DM strata. So what I see is nothing out of ordinary. If you want him to cut inside sometimes the role you are looking for is a CWBS or CWBA.

Edited December 21, 2020 by frukox

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, raktim0699 said:

Here, is our IWB on attack pretty much hugging the line, hardly a characteristics of a inverted player?

Well, that's exactly what I warned you about.