Did they mess up continental club growth even more?

[Renyy]

I had a pretty well received thread on the lack of support for continental club growth in FM20 and had hopes that this was given a bit of attention for FM21, but after 10 years in the game it somehow seems to have gotten worse?

I'm only 10 seasons in, so I'm more looking for other's experience at this point than drawing any conclusions, but this seems absolutely horrid.

I started at 3,5 stars reputation, not playing European football and 6,9 million in sponsorship income in my first season. In 10 seasons I've been to two Europa League finals and won once, two Champion League finals and won once, won ten league titles, five domestic cups, two UEFA Super Cups, expanded my stadium by 10 000 seats, become a 4,5 star club and established myself as the top of UEFAs coefficients, and my sponsorship income in the 11th season is 6,7 million. It's gone down? In FM20 while it increased at snail speed it at least increased and while it couldn't keep up with the club growth it would still be significant relative to where you started. 

Player values also seem even more butchered than before. In FM20 you'd roughly need to be in a top 8 league and have 4,5 star club reputation to get accurate player valuations, but as a top 7 league and 4,5 star club mine are still 1/10th of what they would be in real life. Meanwhile all AI prices are significantly higher this year. I even had the glorious experience of an AI club demanding 150m for their 16 year old, and then when I as a much more merited manager took over that club I had the board step in and sell him at 30m. How is that reasonable?

So I'm really just looking for experiences from those managing outside of Europe's big 10 leagues and have been going for 15-20+ years how finances and player valuations are for you so I can decide whether to keep going or not. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Renyy

[Renyy]

Is it possible to get some official response on what determines player valuations this year? The greatest player in the world, winner of Champions League back 2 back, in the third most reputable club, and top club in coefficients, is set at a measly 10m. It's worse than ever before. I would very much enjoy going through a transfer window without 100+ bids because the AI thinks they're in for the best bargain in footballing history. 

Why is it seemingly impossible to just have player valuations be realistic and not based around some ridiculous hard coded reputation system?

Edited December 28, 2020 by Renyy

[Renyy]

Been a little while now. anyone have a long save with some experience to share? 

[Toin]

Out of curiosity, which team are you? Personally, I didn't encounter any problems at PSV Eindhoven, but they are a pretty big team from the start and players from the Eredivisie have been sold for big amounts in the past too.

I do agree that it's very odd to see the sponsorship go down. What happened to your league reputation over the course of these 10 seasons?

[Renyy]

 

1 hour ago, Toin said:

Out of curiosity, which team are you? Personally, I didn't encounter any problems at PSV Eindhoven, but they are a pretty big team from the start and players from the Eredivisie have been sold for big amounts in the past too.

I do agree that it's very odd to see the sponsorship go down. What happened to your league reputation over the course of these 10 seasons?

Eredivisie is the smallest league with what I'd call realistic player valuations from the game start. I'm playing as Rosenborg and the Norwegian PL is 2 leagues above Eredivisie on the rankings now and yet Ajax and PSV still have half their team valued at 20-40m while I can't get a player above 10m unless they were recently bought for more. 

While there are so many problems with domestic club growth the by far biggest and easiest to fix is this. I can work around no sponsorship money or poor prize pools, but when players in their prime at 27-28 years old are looking for their final big contract of their careers, and I have to sell them to stay sustainable, I should be able to get more than 10-20m for players that would see 100+ in real life. It's made worse by the board pushing me to re-sign these players on contracts that would bankrupt the club and me not being able to reduce expectations a bit to allow for a generation shift. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Renyy

[freddieos]

I hear your pain. Maybe @daveincid finances and sponsorship mods released yesterday will fix this?

[Toin]

It probably has something to do with the valuation that is in the editor for most countries. As seen within the spoiler, this is much higher for the Netherlands than for Norway. I went over some other countries, and Norway really seems to score pretty low for this. From a reputation higher than 160, no values are specified in Norway, but in other countries the values increase rapidly there, so I guess that would happen for Norway too. Maybe the low valuations also have to do with players simply not being able to reach very high reputations (let's say 170+), just because they play in a league that is not that reputable. So that player would have to move to a big league to have their reputation improved, and therefore their value. It would be interesting to see what happens if you signed a player from a big league with a huge reputation (like the 10 seasons in equivalent of Mbappé, Kane, De Bruyne etc.), will that player have a high value? Maybe you have the in-game editor unlocked to test this?

Anyway, those are just some thoughts. I wonder how dynamic these transfer values in the editor are (if at all), but I guess it makes sense if it doesn't change that much in relative short periods of time (like 10 years). However, you should still be able to move on great players from a Champions League winning side pretty easily for large transfer fees in my opinion.

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[Renyy]

14 minutes ago, freddieos said:

I hear your pain. Maybe @daveincid finances and sponsorship mods released yesterday will fix this?

This seems to be doing the complete opposite and make the world even more static in long term saves. 

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Default salaries are too low in Top-5 Leagues in the future. Less money on salary spent has an inflating effect on bank balance overall. This money increases transfer fees in smaller leagues and causes problems there because these Clubs get much higher transfer-fees as they usually get.

Top 5 leagues are pushing 5-600k in wages with the best players demanding 1m a week, so I'm not sure how this person ever came across this problem of wages being too low. They are absurdly high and should be lower. And it definitely does not increase transfer fees in smaller leagues, which actually decreases over time because regens never live up to the transfer fees real players would get in these leagues.

Regardless, I'd have to start a new save which I'm 20 seasons past doing. My hope is that player valuations will be fixed in the winter update and more foundation work will be done for future games. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Renyy

[freddieos]

I'm not sure I agree with that conclusion, I generally find that there is too much money in the game in the future. You regularly see clubs like Young Boys or Dinamo Zagreb selling players for 25-30m euros, about twice the figures they receive IRL. Or Benfica and Celtic buying players for 50-60m! What Dave's file is trying to correct is that top-5 clubs spend more on salaries over time (built-in inflation) so that less money filters down to leagues 6-15 via inflated transfer fees. PL clubs especially have too much money without salaries growth - go check what the top earners earn in your save and you will see it's similar to 2020's levels. Except in leagues 6-15, there salaries have doubled on average.  

But if I have understood it correctly, his Improved Market Values mod includes a more dynamic setup for climbing up the uefa rankings;

• Lower Nations should have a higher limit of market values, so if you bring a small league close to the top, this should also be represented in their market values

[Toin]

15 minutes ago, Toin said:

It probably has something to do with the valuation that is in the editor for most countries. As seen within the spoiler, this is much higher for the Netherlands than for Norway. I went over some other countries, and Norway really seems to score pretty low for this. From a reputation higher than 160, no values are specified in Norway, but in other countries the values increase rapidly there, so I guess that would happen for Norway too. Maybe the low valuations also have to do with players simply not being able to reach very high reputations (let's say 170+), just because they play in a league that is not that reputable. So that player would have to move to a big league to have their reputation improved, and therefore their value. It would be interesting to see what happens if you signed a player from a big league with a huge reputation (like the 10 seasons in equivalent of Mbappé, Kane, De Bruyne etc.), will that player have a high value? Maybe you have the in-game editor unlocked to test this?

Anyway, those are just some thoughts. I wonder how dynamic these transfer values in the editor are (if at all), but I guess it makes sense if it doesn't change that much in relative short periods of time (like 10 years). However, you should still be able to move on great players from a Champions League winning side pretty easily for large transfer fees in my opinion.

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To add to this: as a workaround you could set pretty steep increases in values for the higher reputation levels. For instance, leave everything under 110 or 120 as it is to make sure bad/average players in Norway don't suddenly become impossible to buy for other Norwegian teams because they are too expensive, but increase values for the higher reputation levels. Don't use the values for the Netherlands as an example though as they are ridiculous, even compared to the biggest leagues. The top 5 countries in Europe top out at around €100m.

[freddieos]

But I agree in general that the game is utter crap when it comes to prize money, tv revenue and sponsorship growth in line with the league's ranking. I'm not a coder but I'm pretty sure that's not brain surgery type stuff to include. But that's true for the whole game, it's littered with sloppy mistakes and bugs everywhere.

[Renyy]

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From a reputation higher than 160, no values are specified in Norway, but in other countries the values increase rapidly there, so I guess that would happen for Norway too.

Where in the editor are you seeing this? This is completely new to me and I'd like to run some tests with it.

14 minutes ago, Toin said:

It would be interesting to see what happens if you signed a player from a big league with a huge reputation (like the 10 seasons in equivalent of Mbappé, Kane, De Bruyne etc.), will that player have a high value? Maybe you have the in-game editor unlocked to test this?

They won't. They'll have their value inflated by whatever transfer fee they went for and then over time decrease. By the 3rd year they'll be like any other player. 

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However, you should still be able to move on great players from a Champions League winning side pretty easily for large transfer fees in my opinion.

I don't. I've won CL twice in a row now, 4 times in 6 years and my elite and legendary players still won't see bids above 10-15m with the rare exceptions. I have to get rid of these players over the next couple years now since I can't pay for their next contracts and this generational shift is usually where I lose motivation to continue playing so we'll see. The board is pushing to increase my wage budget to 120 million a year when my guaranteed income is 50m so that's fun.

[Toin]

Go to any country -> Transfers and contracts -> Transfer values.

I'm pretty sure this is what driving the valuations for a big part. It is just a bias so obviously other factors will play a role too (age, contract length etc.), but I think if you enter some higher values (let's say up to €80m for the highest reputation), you'll see big increases to the value of your best players.

[freddieos]

Anyway, my advice is that you start a new save with the following mods and see if improves the experience:

- Smarter AI Managers- ONLY Managers (I have used it for 2000hrs+, best mod available out there). Means you won't win UCL 4/6 times with a Norwegian team, as it should be.

- Realistic Transfer Preferences (less Italians/Spaniards in Scandinavia and more Nordic and African players).

- Improved Market Values (I've not tried myself yet but agree with its philosophy)

- Alternative Youth Rating (mitigates a 300% increase in wonderkids, keeps the number similar to IRL)

- League Reputation Change (I've not tried myself yet but agree with its philosophy)

[Renyy]

28 minutes ago, Toin said:

Go to any country -> Transfers and contracts -> Transfer values.

I'm pretty sure this is what driving the valuations for a big part. It is just a bias so obviously other factors will play a role too (age, contract length etc.), but I think if you enter some higher values (let's say up to €80m for the highest reputation), you'll see big increases to the value of your best players.

Thanks. It amazes me that these arbitrary numbers are in place to create "realism" when all they do is result in hundreds of bids on players because the AI think 5m for 160+ CA players are bargains, as they should. If they want to keep prices grounded with factors outside of just player ability and contract length, a club's financial situation and ambition would surely be a much better way of doing so. It's already in the game as it determines whether your board will step in and accept or decline a transfer. Why can't it communicate with player values as well? 

They went and ruined all of Eredivisie because Ajax got a few huge transfer fees in?

Increasing league reputation to this level is also near impossible, as the AI clubs won't ever have the same ambition and requirements as they'd give the real manager. I can pour money into these clubs and they still won't buy players worth more than what they did at game start. I pretty much rely on other league's doing worse, as seen with that guy who got the Welsh league to the number 1 spot where no other league had even 4,5 stars. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Renyy

[Renyy]

11 minutes ago, freddieos said:

Anyway, my advice is that you start a new save with the following mods and see if improves the experience:

- Smarter AI Managers- ONLY Managers (I have used it for 2000hrs+, best mod available out there). Means you won't win UCL 4/6 times with a Norwegian team, as it should be.

- Realistic Transfer Preferences (less Italians/Spaniards in Scandinavia and more Nordic and African players).

- Improved Market Values (I've not tried myself yet but agree with its philosophy)

- Alternative Youth Rating (mitigates a 300% increase in wonderkids, keeps the number similar to IRL)

- League Reputation Change (I've not tried myself yet but agree with its philosophy)

Investing another 500 hours into the game just to see if a problem is fixed is absurd. Most of these "problems" I've never experienced and the ones I have they try to make worse if I've read it correctly. 

[Toin]

I do agree that this is somewhat arbitrary, and I was able to move on some pretty average players for large sums of money at PSV, more than they yield in real life. Dutch teams did seem to spend quite a bit too, and they actually did very well in Europe. Other countries should see more realistic values though, as I think the Netherlands is a bit overrated in this aspect.

I guess it kind of makes sense that it's really hard to improve league reputations. After Porto won the CL or Ajax made it to the semi final, I don't think there was a big increase in foreign interest in the Portuguese/Dutch league, just like nobody suddenly starts watching the Ukrainian league if Shakhtar does well. You would need sustained success, preferably from multiple teams, to significantly improve this. 

[Showerman]

You know where you live if all the homes sell for £200k but your house is 10x better its not going to go for 10x the price there is a set ceiling.

Same goes for your league, if the rest of the clubs are selling players for £2m don’t expect your players to go for £200m.

You are going to need more then just your clubs rep to improve you.

[Renyy]

1 hour ago, Toin said:

I do agree that this is somewhat arbitrary, and I was able to move on some pretty average players for large sums of money at PSV, more than they yield in real life. Dutch teams did seem to spend quite a bit too, and they actually did very well in Europe. Other countries should see more realistic values though, as I think the Netherlands is a bit overrated in this aspect.

I guess it kind of makes sense that it's really hard to improve league reputations. After Porto won the CL or Ajax made it to the semi final, I don't think there was a big increase in foreign interest in the Portuguese/Dutch league, just like nobody suddenly starts watching the Ukrainian league if Shakhtar does well. You would need sustained success, preferably from multiple teams, to significantly improve this. 

While I agree, a league's reputation is based around competition results, not foreign or even domestic interest. Maybe that should be two separate rankings and the interest factor play no part in player valuations, because this isn't it.

Premier League is set at 20m base valuations for players at 141-150 league reputation, meanwhile the Norwegian league is set at 2m. That means the Premier League can perform to the level of the Serbian league in Europe, and yet Premier League players will still be worth 10 times what the Champions League winner from Norway's players are worth. You can't base player valuations around player ability in the sense that they must perform intercontinentally when you create these arbitrary price brackets for them, and then at the same time completely ignore their ability. If Premier League players should be worth more than players from Norway based on the finances of the clubs, which they should, then at least base it on the finances of the clubs. Not something the game then has to contradict itself on. 

For FM 21 they've added an extra price bracket for players in the Norwegian league too, ranging from 151-160. That means I have to somehow get the Norwegian PL to 161 reputation. That's more than I ever did in my FM20 save that lasted until 2047 where I had won Champions League 7 or 8 times in a row. All in the name of "realism". If they just despise continental club growth and want the world to look exactly the same 10-50-100 years in the future, then they should say it. At best this is an extremely lazy approach to dealing with the game being too easy, which it doesn't even succeed in. 

1 hour ago, Showerman said:

You know where you live if all the homes sell for £200k but your house is 10x better its not going to go for 10x the price there is a set ceiling.

Same goes for your league, if the rest of the clubs are selling players for £2m don’t expect your players to go for £200m.

You are going to need more then just your clubs rep to improve you.

Manchester United aren't gonna build a stadium and go play their home games in Norway now are they? Player sales is an international market. Microsoft didn't buy Mojang for 300 000 because they were based in Sweden. They bought them for 2,5 billion. 

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I'm very curious about what removing all these brackets for every nation would do. I did it just for Norway and ran a test save and valuations were still reasonable on game start. If it doesn't break anything short term I see very little reason for them to exist. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Renyy