[FM21] How to make this Formation and Tactic Work Better? 4-2-3-1 Wide Discussion

[Hootieleece]

This tactic has worked more or less in all versions of FM since FM18. 

This Year in my "Don't Go Debrecen my Heart" Thread in Career Updates it is working again....

But I want to take it to the next level....

I still have problems with teams that "Park the Bus" against us....

The team is small, pacy and technically proficient but not team players and don't always work hard....

I have created a "possesion-hungry" system as a way of pacifying my employers desire for defensive football...

I want incisive Attacking Football using Technique, Flair and Brains to beat the Burnley's of the World!

 

Feel Free to justify any changes to roles and ti's....if you want to see the player in a specific role and his PI's just ask I will screenshot.

 

[ozilthegunner]

A simple change, for when teams park the bus, would be to remove 'focus down the middle' and increase your attacking width. May not need both, but in general if teams are packing the box, the space is out wide and you need to move defenders around by using the entire width of the pitch

[goranm]

You have a BWM that will not risk much going forward and a MC that drifts wide. That leaves only the AM in the center as the creative player, yet you have Focus Play Through Middle.

If I wanted to go with an attacking style with a 4231, I'd let wingbacks bomb forward with an Attack duty, use a CM(D) and CM(S) middle pair (or a similar role choice that would keep the MC's central), and no focused passing.

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by goranm

[s0ni42]

To me, the most common trend I see is the assumption that a single tactic can uniformly be applied to all opponents. There are different tweaks you can make to offer something different. 
 

slow tempo down a notch to better possess the ball.

alternate the striker and 10 to have striker coming deep and 10 more aggressive. 
 

Using man marking and being expressive may mean your structure gets all out of whack at times and makes you very open. If you have good creativity in place with personnel and roles, you may can toggle off be more expressive. Think you’ll find you’re counter pressing may be more consistent as guys are better positioned on turnover. Opposite reaction could be to remove man marking. You’ll then be more reliant on anticipation and structure to force turnovers as opposed to individual defensive brilliance. I used to always man mark, but more recently seen much better consistency and defensive control without. 
 

just some thoughts. Overall theme, be willing to make small tweaks against teams and don’t simply plug and play same exact tactic every weekend. 

[Hootieleece]

1 hour ago, s0ni42 said:

To me, the most common trend I see is the assumption that a single tactic can uniformly be applied to all opponents. There are different tweaks you can make to offer something different. 
 

slow tempo down a notch to better possess the ball.

alternate the striker and 10 to have striker coming deep and 10 more aggressive. 
 

Using man marking and being expressive may mean your structure gets all out of whack at times and makes you very open. If you have good creativity in place with personnel and roles, you may can toggle off be more expressive. Think you’ll find you’re counter pressing may be more consistent as guys are better positioned on turnover. Opposite reaction could be to remove man marking. You’ll then be more reliant on anticipation and structure to force turnovers as opposed to individual defensive brilliance. I used to always man mark, but more recently seen much better consistency and defensive control without. 
 

just some thoughts. Overall theme, be willing to make small tweaks against teams and don’t simply plug and play same exact tactic every weekend. 

I do sort of plug-n-play. I sort of use the same basic roles in a 4-3-3 and 4-3-3 Wide....but almost never use them because I "don't like to Chop and change" because I have found that Team Cohesion and Tactical Familiarity often help more than the "Tweaks"

As for Possession my team averages 57% 

The BWM-D sort of plays the role of a DM and does a good job of recycling possession. He is on the right side to cover for the WB-S that bombs forward often.

But I will try the non-man marking idea though...it sounds interesting.

 

[Hootieleece]

1 hour ago, goranm said:

You have a BWM that will not risk much going forward and a MC that drifts wide. That leaves only the AM in the center as the creative player, yet you have Focus Play Through Middle.

If I wanted to go with an attacking style with a 4231, I'd let wingbacks bomb forward with an Attack duty, use a CM(D) and CM(S) middle pair (or a similar role choice that would keep the MC's central), and no focused passing.

 

I just want to make sure the #10 gets the ball....also this is a tweak of the out of the box Vertical Tiki-Taka that also features underlaps left and right as well focus down the middle.

[ozilthegunner]

1 hour ago, Hootieleece said:

I just want to make sure the #10 gets the ball....also this is a tweak of the out of the box Vertical Tiki-Taka that also features underlaps left and right as well focus down the middle.

Yeah but the default Vertical Tiki-Taka, under the same circumstances (parked bus), will also have extreme difficulty scoring goals. So, noting that the default one does something similar doesn't really justify doing it

 

[Hootieleece]

2 hours ago, ozilthegunner said:

Yeah but the default Vertical Tiki-Taka, under the same circumstances (parked bus), will also have extreme difficulty scoring goals. So, noting that the default one does something similar doesn't really justify doing it

 

I will try some of these "tweaks"....but I am leading my league in scoring goals,,.but I do have problems with players congregating at the 18 yard line.

[Hootieleece]

Also know that I am American and don't "know" Football/Soccer that well... My team seems to be emulating a good Arsenal team under Wenger.

 

[s0ni42]

5 hours ago, Hootieleece said:

I just want to make sure the #10 gets the ball....also this is a tweak of the out of the box Vertical Tiki-Taka that also features underlaps left and right as well focus down the middle.

I’m not talking about overhauling the system, but the oppositions positions and roles may be attacked better by subtle changes.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

Tactical cohesion doesn't have to suffer. You can have a secondary tactic that is your park the bus killer.

Alternatively, in FM21, in the tactical meeting (and team selection) menu allows you to toggle whether your tactical changes apply generally or only to the match you're about to play thus preserving cohesion.

[goranm]

21 hours ago, Hootieleece said:

also this is a tweak of the out of the box Vertical Tiki-Taka that also features underlaps left and right as well focus down the middle.

The default vertical tiki-taka is a neutral tactic with balanced mentality. If you want to break down buses, you'll have to increase the number of players that are hammering at the bus, either by changing their individual roles and mentalities, or by upping the team mentality (or both). Teams that park the bus are going to pack the middle of the pitch, so without much aggressive play from the wide you'll be doing them a favour.

Currently on your right side you have a WB(S) and an IF(S). With a support duty, these two players will play in the space between the opposition defence and midfield and won't really charge at the defence. If you want to be more aggressive, at least one of those should have an attacking mentality OR your overall team mentality should be bumped to attacking.

On your left you have an IW(A) that will push the defence, but because the WB has a defensive duty, the IW won't get support on the flank, or from the mezalla (S) that's going to be wide but still sit deeper. So the IW with his cut-ins will be charging into the central areas alone, but those will be packed by the opposition.

Quote

but I do have problems with players congregating at the 18 yard line

This is what support duties do, they support. If you want to keep your players on support duties, but make them charge at the defense more, use the Run At Defence instruction. Otherwise, increase the number of attacking duties.

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by goranm

[ozilthegunner]

16 hours ago, Hootieleece said:

Also know that I am American and don't "know" Football/Soccer that well... My team seems to be emulating a good Arsenal team under Wenger.

 

Yeah, the instructions that push everything into the middle will lead to some really beautiful, intricate play that would be Wenger-esque. But that style of play was also problematic for breaking down parked teams for precisely the same reason everyone here is telling you yours is having issues: you need to find space, and it is going to be wide, not central.

And, again, as we have all been saying: Don't change your existing tactic to deal with this issue... just create a secondary tactic that you will use when you need to break down a packed bus. You can still keep what you have here and use it where appropriate

For me, in the 2nd season of my Arsenal save, I have had a lot of luck with simply having 2 distinct tactics, one of which is more adventurous than the other. Since figuring that out, I have won every game I've played - against big and small teams. And I switch between the two tactics within a game sometimes, too... sometimes just going more adventurous for like 10-15 minutes can be effective, and then revert to control possession more

[Hootieleece]

After the advice in this thread.....

This is what I came up with....It has led to an undefeated month and I only use when "chasing a goal" like at start of a match or if we fall behind....

[frukox]

3 minutes ago, Hootieleece said:

After the advice in this thread.....

This is what I came up with....It has led to an undefeated month and I only use when "chasing a goal" like at start of a match or if we fall behind....

You basically no one in the middle of the park, which I wouldn't do in 4-2-3-1 but it looks like your team can handle this taking the first place in the league into account. It seems to be a mid block yet you instruct your forwards to prevent GK distribution. I personally use it in a high block. No one seems to be working the channels(I don't know your attackers traits btw) To sum up you only have CBs at the back in attacking transitions. If it fails it is a recipe for disaster. 

[Hootieleece]

@frukox: 

I was going for a more aggressive tactic to help breakdown "Park the Bus" 4-4-2's mainly. My main tactic is at the top if the tread.....it is much more defensibly stable and the BWM-D is in the middle of the park on the right side covering the RWB. The LWB in it stays back for the most part and just Crosses into the box and provides defensive cover.

The team is a bunch of technicians and flair players....We are not in a really tough league...but some times we still need extra to get a goal....

Shameless plug:

.

 

 

[frukox]

17 minutes ago, Hootieleece said:

@frukox: 

I was going for a more aggressive tactic to help breakdown "Park the Bus" 4-4-2's mainly. My main tactic is at the top if the tread.....it is much more defensibly stable and the BWM-D is in the middle of the park on the right side covering the RWB. The LWB in it stays back for the most part and just Crosses into the box and provides defensive cover.

The team is a bunch of technicians and flair players....We are not in a really tough league...but some times we still need extra to get a goal....

Shameless plug:

.

 

 

Oh I got it. Honestly, I didn't look at the OP. Anyway, still its too aggressive. You need at least one player in the middle of the park to recycle possession, get the second balls or change the point of attack with a quick switch of play. I'd prefer a DLP(S) as a part of the double pivot. However,  to give a better advice, I need to know: Who do you want to score? Who can be your creaters? Who do you want to be recyclers of possession? In this tactic I can't see it.

[Hootieleece]

5 minutes ago, frukox said:

Oh I got it. Honestly, I didn't look at the OP. Anyway, still its too aggressive. You need at least one player in the middle of the park to recycle possession, get the second balls or change the point of attack with a quick switch of play. I'd prefer a DLP(S) as a part of the double pivot. However,  to give a better advice, I need to know: Who do you want to score? Who can be your creaters? Who do you want to be recyclers of possession? In this tactic I can't see it.

The Main Scorer in the OP is the PF-A. The second option is the IF-S and a third option is the IW-A. The Main Creator is the AMC-AP-S and the Mezz-S is a secondary creative option and both are expected to score the odd goal as well as mainly assist.

The More Aggressive Tactic makes the AP-A and Mezzala-A the main scorers with the others playing secondary roles at least that is the intention.

 

[frukox]

30 minutes ago, Hootieleece said:

The Main Scorer in the OP is the PF-A. The second option is the IF-S and a third option is the IW-A. The Main Creator is the AMC-AP-S and the Mezz-S is a secondary creative option and both are expected to score the odd goal as well as mainly assist.

The More Aggressive Tactic makes the AP-A and Mezzala-A the main scorers with the others playing secondary roles at least that is the intention.

 

I'd prefer MEZA as a scorer in a different shape such as 4-1-2-3. A 4-2-3-1 is a tricky formation. As it's top heavy, the only link between your defence and attack your double pivot. I believe they should be less aggressive than the rest of roles even in a tactic aiming to unlock ultra defensive sides. Maybe:

                         F9

     IWA             SS             IFS

             MEZS    DLPS 

     

    FBS     CD      CD        WBA       

I'd use this system if you insist on using a mezzalla as a part of a double pivot. F9 and SS will switch positions while IWA and WBA stretching the defence allowing different points of attack. IFS and MEZs will link up play with the rest of the attackers while FBS and DLPS will recycle possession to keep pressure on the opposition with a high back line. So now the tactic has the needed width, adequate support and penetration, enough movement and creativity on the paper.

Edited December 21, 2020 by frukox

[ozilthegunner]

12 hours ago, Hootieleece said:

After the advice in this thread.....

This is what I came up with....It has led to an undefeated month and I only use when "chasing a goal" like at start of a match or if we fall behind....

Good to hear you got some good results out of this. Just a couple of thoughts (somewhat picking up on what has been said):

I'd probably make either one of the wingers or the striker on 'attack' duty while taking away the 'attack' duty from the midfield. In particular, one worry I'd have with your current setup is that the AP(a) needs more space to drive into or look for a pass from, but your striker will be dropping a bit bringing defenders closer. I think a striker on attack duty would be preferable. In my current tactic, I use an AF(a) in front of an AP(a) and it works a treat. You could do the same with the PF(a).

And this would allow you to solidify your midfield a bit. While I recognize this is your 'gung-ho' tactic, and so it should be expected to be a bit dicey defensively, this seems a bit much. I currently run with a B2B and CM(d) combo, but you could do a DLP(s) with a BWM(d) perhaps, or a B2B with a BWM(d). I like having a 'runner' combined with a 'sitter'... so the B2B works well with a DLP, CM(d), or BWM(d). But some do it as a more traditional double pivot, where both players are effectively "sitters"

Also, I'd turn off 'prevent short GK distribution'... your other TIs don't support it, and besides if you are working to break a team down, you want the keeper to get it out to the defenders or whatever so you can then pressure them and win the ball with at least some space to take advantage of as soon as you do. Targeting the keeper will, at best, result in him kicking it out of touch, which gives the opposition a chance to reset

[Hootieleece]

@ozilthegunner:The Idea was to have the Mezzala and IW-S switch places effectively and the AP-A and PF-S also interchange.

 

The Pivot in my "Normal" Tactic is a Mezzala-S and BWM-D....The BWM-D basically holds position  and recycles the ball and covers for the  Forward runs of the WB-S on the Right.

The Mezzala is covered by a WB-D on his side....a long with the CD and BPD form a back four....

 

In my 4-2-3-1 Wide on FM20. I used a DLP-S and BBM-S as the midfield Pivot.

[Hootieleece]

This is what I have come up with following advice of Forum and other 4-2-3-1 Wide Threads:

This is my primary tactic....it works in most situations and actually defensibly solid...surprisingly.

This is a copy of Rashidi's Bayern....not sure it works with my low teamwork and workrate team.

This last tactic is from your advice....It works better than #2 but has problems with current squad....

 

Please help with my tactics....I need good tactics for a fast, technically proficient team. All roles in Priamary tactic are being trained for First Squad Members.

 

Any and all advice is appreciated.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Hootieleece

[frukox]

7 hours ago, Hootieleece said:

This is what I have come up with following advice of Forum and other 4-2-3-1 Wide Threads:

This is my primary tactic....it works in most situations and actually defensibly solid...surprisingly.

This is a copy of Rashidi's Bayern....not sure it works with my low teamwork and workrate team.

This last tactic is from your advice....It works better than #2 but has problems with current squad....

 

Please help with my tactics....I need good tactics for a fast, technically proficient team. All roles in Priamary tactic are being trained for First Squad Members.

 

Any and all advice is appreciated.

 

 

I think you are not far off having a good anti-bus tactic but I'd change the left full back to FBS/IWBS- I'd need someone behind to pass the ball when there is no forward option at times as well as being a cover for the left flank in case of a counter-attack and consider removing Play for Setpieces-it's generally for possession-hungry teams. Be More Expressive is something I'd be wary of. If you like keeping the ball, this may not be good at all times as it allows more individual creavity for each player. If the last tactic is your bus breaker, I'd increase LOE by one or two notches to keep the pressure on opposition more effectively.  

Edited December 23, 2020 by frukox