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For Those Who Want Tactical Knowledge - Must Read!


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  • smbabur911 changed the title to For Those Who Want Tactical Knowledge - Must Read!

Good read. Poses the question about whether it is possible to set up in FM full-backs/wing-backs to sometimes sit narrow and sometimes overlap dependent on the movement of the winger.

Perhaps using overlap left/right but using IWBs? Might experiment with my AZ side.

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5 hours ago, Obaaa said:

Good read. Poses the question about whether it is possible to set up in FM full-backs/wing-backs to sometimes sit narrow and sometimes overlap dependent on the movement of the winger.

Perhaps using overlap left/right but using IWBs? Might experiment with my AZ side.

This can work, but I still prefer a fb-s, with sits narrow and then the overlap.

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18 hours ago, 04texag said:

This can work, but I still prefer a fb-s, with sits narrow and then the overlap.

Only issuue with fb-s that you need to play with low tempo to get him involved. Great for possession based stuff. But i play a a high tempo strikerless so iwb or wb or even cwb are needed. And cwb are very unpredictable in their movement. The best role for wingback 100%.

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Agree, this has helped me immensely. The best part is when you see something obvious yet subtle and elusive e.g. to fill the five attacking lanes, and then you translate that to FM and it actually works. Makes me feel like I haven't just wasted the last 27 years of my life :)

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13 hours ago, PAFC said:

Agree, this has helped me immensely. The best part is when you see something obvious yet subtle and elusive e.g. to fill the five attacking lanes, and then you translate that to FM and it actually works. Makes me feel like I haven't just wasted the last 27 years of my life :)

lol, fully agreed.

Fantastic article that really made me think. I've since implemented the 5-5 rule where my team occupies all 5 lanes and we even try to work on one rotation. Not only have the results been fantastic, but it's great to see the little changes you make have such an impact, as you have already pointed out. 

Thank you OP for posting this. The tactical side is the most fun part for me. 

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Thanks op.

 

After looking at this, i went back to the game (FM 20 with an updated database) and loaded up Arsenal to have a play around with some ideas.  This website helps me understand a bit why some argue that arsenal is so unbalanced!

 

At the start of the save it suggests a 4-2-3-1, but the best i can fit into that formation (with injuries) is something like this:

image.png.738a213440276118b55a08fb899e1fa5.png

Which would result in something like: 

 

image.png.5699bbba85ffa4319f12053bb1f3616e.png

Not ideal.  Too many are going forward and it doesn't have the support in CM like the link suggests.  So it got me looking at a few other ideas.  I guess I could leave one FB as an IWB, but then we have issues with width on that side. The 1st ideas was this one:

image.png.4f25ea7f50033c70a0a23bd299d4be79.png

The means dropping Willian (I like Ozil) and bringing in Elneny (his role might change depending on the fowards of the opposition).  I have no idea what I will do with the Cm roles, but that can be played with.  The result is hopefully something like:

image.png.4b95b860872dc9e923904ecdd809640b.png

A big problem is the quality of the full backs.  Oh well.

 

I also thought of:

image.png.820f2a59ea3531896460ca8ad4e3a7b5.png

Which tries to have a similar result as the diamond formation (just Ozil and Lac switch sides), or even (for when we need to change players):

image.png.47c2cf7e7b24e58ef2105cbbd97efa23.png

To maybe end up with:

 

image.png.3ebdc2eef6345b1166d67df433f39e74.png

I am not sure if that will work for Aubameyang due to his footedness.

As everyone seems to cut inside on the right, I could get Pepe to act as a winger on the left.  Then  the left FB acts as the CM.

 

Anyway, thanks for the link op, helps me think things out better (lets see if anything works!

 

Edited by Andros
too many pics
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I gave Arsenal a go for a bit, because they are having a rough time with high expectations in real life and in the game.

I had success with this, but at the same time got a little frustrated as well because it was more an exercise in filling the lanes, meeting the goals of attacking attractive style and getting results. I didn't feel so connected.

I think they used to call this style wibble-wobble, where the defensive shape 4-5-1 is significantly different to the attacking shape 2-3-5.

It Just Works 2.PNG

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Trying to apply the 5-5 rule to the actual Chelsea team in FM is proving very problematic, anyone else had success?

based on a 433DM with Kante in the DM position and then mount/kova and Havertz sat in front. James and chilwell in the full back positions and then pulisic on the left and ziyech on the right.

All of those players, are very forward thinking players (except Kovacic to some extent) if I want to use the klopp way that means telling mount and Havertz to hold whilst my full backs and inverted forwards attack. I’m not sure that’s going to suit either of my 2 Cms.

The man city way could work, pushing the 2 cms on while the full backs invert and slot into the vacant cm slots, but I feel this way I’d lose a lot of what Reece James is all about by asking him to invert. I love Reece James and he’s an absolute monster in the game for me on other saves. Also this way you are also telling the wide forwards to act more as wingers and the only player who actually suits being a winger is CHO when played on a certain side.

I’ve also thought about sort of combining to two, using klopps ideas on the right hand side and then using Peps ideas on the left, telling chilwell to invert and maybe asking pulisic to stay wide so Havertz can attack the box but then again I feel like I’m taking a huge part of what pulisic is about!

 

anyone have any ideas? Also would you achieve the 5-5 split using a 4-2-3-1

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32 minutes ago, Sarriball14 said:

Trying to apply the 5-5 rule to the actual Chelsea team in FM is proving very problematic, anyone else had success?

based on a 433DM with Kante in the DM position and then mount/kova and Havertz sat in front. James and chilwell in the full back positions and then pulisic on the left and ziyech on the right.

All of those players, are very forward thinking players (except Kovacic to some extent) if I want to use the klopp way that means telling mount and Havertz to hold whilst my full backs and inverted forwards attack. I’m not sure that’s going to suit either of my 2 Cms.

The man city way could work, pushing the 2 cms on while the full backs invert and slot into the vacant cm slots, but I feel this way I’d lose a lot of what Reece James is all about by asking him to invert. I love Reece James and he’s an absolute monster in the game for me on other saves. Also this way you are also telling the wide forwards to act more as wingers and the only player who actually suits being a winger is CHO when played on a certain side.

I’ve also thought about sort of combining to two, using klopps ideas on the right hand side and then using Peps ideas on the left, telling chilwell to invert and maybe asking pulisic to stay wide so Havertz can attack the box but then again I feel like I’m taking a huge part of what pulisic is about!

 

anyone have any ideas? Also would you achieve the 5-5 split using a 4-2-3-1

Achieving the 5-5 split in the 4-2-3-1 should be pretty straightforward , you already have 4 advanced players by default then it’s just a matter of having either a runner from midfield or an attacking full back to make the 5th.

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On 27/12/2020 at 05:04, Sarriball14 said:

Trying to apply the 5-5 rule to the actual Chelsea team in FM is proving very problematic, anyone else had success?

based on a 433DM with Kante in the DM position and then mount/kova and Havertz sat in front. James and chilwell in the full back positions and then pulisic on the left and ziyech on the right.

All of those players, are very forward thinking players (except Kovacic to some extent) if I want to use the klopp way that means telling mount and Havertz to hold whilst my full backs and inverted forwards attack. I’m not sure that’s going to suit either of my 2 Cms.

The man city way could work, pushing the 2 cms on while the full backs invert and slot into the vacant cm slots, but I feel this way I’d lose a lot of what Reece James is all about by asking him to invert. I love Reece James and he’s an absolute monster in the game for me on other saves. Also this way you are also telling the wide forwards to act more as wingers and the only player who actually suits being a winger is CHO when played on a certain side.

I’ve also thought about sort of combining to two, using klopps ideas on the right hand side and then using Peps ideas on the left, telling chilwell to invert and maybe asking pulisic to stay wide so Havertz can attack the box but then again I feel like I’m taking a huge part of what pulisic is about!

 

anyone have any ideas? Also would you achieve the 5-5 split using a 4-2-3-1

@Sarriball14, @Hilly1979 is right.

 

I'm currently playing with Chelsea adopting a 4-3-2-1 and the 5-5 split is achievable. In my case the two CMs hold their positions (CAR and DLP-D) and the two fullbacks are in support. So what happens is that the near-ball FB always overlaps/underlaps, while the far-ball FB stays behind and narrow forming the balance players line with my two CMs. 

The only thing to keep in mind is that this works well as long as you don't use high tempo. Otherwise your FBs don't have the time to reach the action zone. In my case I play Cautious mentality with standard tempo and much shorter passing for a good possession game, but you don't have to be so extreme so I am. 

One more thing I did to perfect the way we are covering all of the vertical channels is to position my CF and CAM off-center. This works great. 

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34 minutes ago, DNZ-8 said:

@Sarriball14, @Hilly1979 is right.

 

I'm currently playing with Chelsea adopting a 4-3-2-1 and the 5-5 split is achievable. In my case the two CMs hold their positions (CAR and DLP-D) and the two fullbacks are in support. So what happens is that the near-ball FB always overlaps/underlaps, while the far-ball FB stays behind and narrow forming the balance players line with my two CMs. 

The only thing to keep in mind is that this works well as long as you don't use high tempo. Otherwise your FBs don't have the time to reach the action zone. In my case I play Cautious mentality with standard tempo and much shorter passing for a good possession game, but you don't have to be so extreme so I am. 

One more thing I did to perfect the way we are covering all of the vertical channels is to position my CF and CAM off-center. This works great. 

Interesting! I may have to have a go at this and the FBs on support, that way they both get to to take turns going forward depending on what side of the pitch the ball is. Out of curiosity what did you do with the wide attacking players in terms of roles?

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Inverted wingbacks can be really useful in achieving a 2-3-5 or 3-2-5 attacking shape; for example below my Lyon team are using different methods of creating width down each flank - with the full back on the left flank and the winger on the right.  The inverting right back allows our RCM to progress through the right half space and join the attack. This set-up provides some variation in our build-up patterns and we can flood the box when the ball is out wide (see GIF below)

950981125_Screenshot2020-12-28at10_38_47.thumb.png.1803d7a48e2a5c51208ab968e1fe1945.png

spacer.png

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On 27/12/2020 at 05:04, Sarriball14 said:

Trying to apply the 5-5 rule to the actual Chelsea team in FM is proving very problematic, anyone else had success?

based on a 433DM with Kante in the DM position and then mount/kova and Havertz sat in front. James and chilwell in the full back positions and then pulisic on the left and ziyech on the right.

All of those players, are very forward thinking players (except Kovacic to some extent) if I want to use the klopp way that means telling mount and Havertz to hold whilst my full backs and inverted forwards attack. I’m not sure that’s going to suit either of my 2 Cms.

The man city way could work, pushing the 2 cms on while the full backs invert and slot into the vacant cm slots, but I feel this way I’d lose a lot of what Reece James is all about by asking him to invert. I love Reece James and he’s an absolute monster in the game for me on other saves. Also this way you are also telling the wide forwards to act more as wingers and the only player who actually suits being a winger is CHO when played on a certain side.

I’ve also thought about sort of combining to two, using klopps ideas on the right hand side and then using Peps ideas on the left, telling chilwell to invert and maybe asking pulisic to stay wide so Havertz can attack the box but then again I feel like I’m taking a huge part of what pulisic is about!

 

anyone have any ideas? Also would you achieve the 5-5 split using a 4-2-3-1

If pulisic has PPMs to cut inside, then you can still give him PIs to stay wider but he will cut in when he is in a good position to do so.

In fact, that is how it usually works for Pep. Yes, the wingers should keep the width, but that doesn't mean they don't drive in and attack at all, and especially that they just stay wide once they have the ball.

So, point is... invert chilwell to push along mount and have pulisic hold the width. You could even use IW or IF, whichever allows a stay wider PI (one does) to further encourage driving in on the ball while maintaining width when off it

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11 minutes ago, ozilthegunner said:

If pulisic has PPMs to cut inside, then you can still give him PIs to stay wider but he will cut in when he is in a good position to do so.

In fact, that is how it usually works for Pep. Yes, the wingers should keep the width, but that doesn't mean they don't drive in and attack at all, and especially that they just stay wide once they have the ball.

So, point is... invert chilwell to push along mount and have pulisic hold the width. You could even use IW or IF, whichever allows a stay wider PI (one does) to further encourage driving in on the ball while maintaining width when off it

He doesn’t currently have that PPM but it’s something I’m planning on learning him. The stay wide option is a great shout, I don’t want to use Pulisic as a winger because I don’t want too many players crossing the ball and as a winger that’s hard coded, but I do also want him to occupy that channel but still be a goal threat in the box. I plan to use James as my crossing option and occupy the opposite wide channel allowing Ziyech to cut in and create

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On 26/12/2020 at 05:55, Piksi#10 said:

lol, fully agreed.

Fantastic article that really made me think. I've since implemented the 5-5 rule where my team occupies all 5 lanes and we even try to work on one rotation. Not only have the results been fantastic, but it's great to see the little changes you make have such an impact, as you have already pointed out. 

Thank you OP for posting this. The tactical side is the most fun part for me. 

You are welcome. Hope you enjoy the implementation of ideas process. 

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On 26/12/2020 at 10:26, Andros said:

Thanks op.

 

After looking at this, i went back to the game (FM 20 with an updated database) and loaded up Arsenal to have a play around with some ideas.  This website helps me understand a bit why some argue that arsenal is so unbalanced!

 

At the start of the save it suggests a 4-2-3-1, but the best i can fit into that formation (with injuries) is something like this:

image.png.738a213440276118b55a08fb899e1fa5.png

Which would result in something like: 

 

image.png.5699bbba85ffa4319f12053bb1f3616e.png

Not ideal.  Too many are going forward and it doesn't have the support in CM like the link suggests.  So it got me looking at a few other ideas.  I guess I could leave one FB as an IWB, but then we have issues with width on that side. The 1st ideas was this one:

image.png.4f25ea7f50033c70a0a23bd299d4be79.png

The means dropping Willian (I like Ozil) and bringing in Elneny (his role might change depending on the fowards of the opposition).  I have no idea what I will do with the Cm roles, but that can be played with.  The result is hopefully something like:

image.png.4b95b860872dc9e923904ecdd809640b.png

A big problem is the quality of the full backs.  Oh well.

 

I also thought of:

image.png.820f2a59ea3531896460ca8ad4e3a7b5.png

Which tries to have a similar result as the diamond formation (just Ozil and Lac switch sides), or even (for when we need to change players):

image.png.47c2cf7e7b24e58ef2105cbbd97efa23.png

To maybe end up with:

 

image.png.3ebdc2eef6345b1166d67df433f39e74.png

I am not sure if that will work for Aubameyang due to his footedness.

As everyone seems to cut inside on the right, I could get Pepe to act as a winger on the left.  Then  the left FB acts as the CM.

 

Anyway, thanks for the link op, helps me think things out better (lets see if anything works!

 

I didn't think a link to an article will bring so much joy to the people but i am happy it is proving helpful. Enjoy and a happy new year!

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33 minutes ago, smbabur911 said:

I didn't think a link to an article will bring so much joy to the people but i am happy it is proving helpful. Enjoy and a happy new year!

Best post on here in a long time, you get so many posts here on how to replicate klopp/pep and here it’s explained in one simple article.

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6 hours ago, Hilly1979 said:

Best post on here in a long time, you get so many posts here on how to replicate klopp/pep and here it’s explained in one simple article.

Yeah. Considering its a link to a Chelsea blog and written by Chelsea fans makes me even more happier. **** Spurs but thank you for your kind words :D 

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On 29/12/2020 at 15:15, Sarriball14 said:

Interesting! I may have to have a go at this and the FBs on support, that way they both get to to take turns going forward depending on what side of the pitch the ball is. Out of curiosity what did you do with the wide attacking players in terms of roles?

@Sarriball14 With wide players I basically use all the available roles, over time but specifically depending on the characteristics of the player. In my opinion all of the options work as long as I give them the "stay wide" instruction (expect for the raumdeuter of course). Different choices give me slightly different options and I love that. Generally I use an IF  on one side to get more into the box and on the other an IW to contribute more to ball circulation (overload). I think that I never have the same role on both flanks. But, again, other roles work as well. For me the choice of player is more important in giving a characterization to the position than the role itself.  I hope this still helps. 

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15 hours ago, Sarriball14 said:

Im thinking of something like this? Anything i should re consider?

chels433.png

It sounds like you know how you want your players to perform and, for me, visualising a style of play is the hardest part of putting together any tactic - once you can picture the patterns of play in your mind it simply a case of watching games to see if that is replicated out on the pitch.  Does the AML 'stay wide' in the transition like you hoped?  Are the players you expect to get into goal scoring opportunities doing so? Does your set-up take advantage of the right-sided overload (e.g. can you create a 1-on-1 opportunities on the left through a quick switch of play)?

I would never say this is the right way or wrong way to set-up a tactic, but when I'm using a Mezzala I like to stretch play on that side so he can ghost into space between the opponents central defender and fullback, for example:

spacer.png

Looking at your set-up I'm wondering if you see a lot of players in that left half-space at the same time (the IWB, IF and MEZ)?

 

Edited by Silver Sweeper
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7 hours ago, Silver Sweeper said:

It sounds like you know how you want your players to perform and, for me, visualising a style of play is the hardest part of putting together any tactic - once you can picture the patterns of play in your mind it simply a case of watching games to see if that is replicated out on the pitch.  Does the AML 'stay wide' in the transition like you hoped?  Are the players you expect to get into goal scoring opportunities doing so? Does your set-up take advantage of the right-sided overload (e.g. can you create a 1-on-1 opportunities on the left through a quick switch of play)?

I would never say this is the right way or wrong way to set-up a tactic, but when I'm using a Mezzala I like to stretch play on that side so he can ghost into space between the opponents central defender and fullback, for example:

spacer.png

Looking at your set-up I'm wondering if you see a lot of players in that left half-space at the same time (the IWB, IF and MEZ)?

 

I guess your roles for that side: MEZA WS WBA because it looks like you pinned CBS with a PA and right FB with IFA, right?

Edited by frukox
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7 hours ago, Silver Sweeper said:

It sounds like you know how you want your players to perform and, for me, visualising a style of play is the hardest part of putting together any tactic - once you can picture the patterns of play in your mind it simply a case of watching games to see if that is replicated out on the pitch.  Does the AML 'stay wide' in the transition like you hoped?  Are the players you expect to get into goal scoring opportunities doing so? Does your set-up take advantage of the right-sided overload (e.g. can you create a 1-on-1 opportunities on the left through a quick switch of play)?

I would never say this is the right way or wrong way to set-up a tactic, but when I'm using a Mezzala I like to stretch play on that side so he can ghost into space between the opponents central defender and fullback, for example:

spacer.png

Looking at your set-up I'm wondering if you see a lot of players in that left half-space at the same time (the IWB, IF and MEZ)?

 

I know what I want but getting there is proving difficult. I’ve always been the type to default back to a downloaded tactic but this time I want more satisfaction out the game from creating something of my own. 
 

I want all the channels to be occupied when going forward. With James at right back he’s the perfect option for occupying the right flank, ziyech to operate in the half space on the right hand side cutting inside from the right flank, either a IW or AP

Werner or Abraham occupying the central channel, neither players are that good at linking up play so they are very role specific in my opinion. 

I want Havertz to be a goal threat from central midfield attacking the left half space so thinking either a CMa or MEZa and then as for Pulisic I want him to occupy the left channel and then cut inside the box late (I guess like sterling does for city)

Chilwell as IWB to cover the space vacated by Havertz.

So yeah I kind of know what I want but making it work is another thing :L

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8 hours ago, Silver Sweeper said:

It sounds like you know how you want your players to perform and, for me, visualising a style of play is the hardest part of putting together any tactic - once you can picture the patterns of play in your mind it simply a case of watching games to see if that is replicated out on the pitch.  Does the AML 'stay wide' in the transition like you hoped?  Are the players you expect to get into goal scoring opportunities doing so? Does your set-up take advantage of the right-sided overload (e.g. can you create a 1-on-1 opportunities on the left through a quick switch of play)?

I would never say this is the right way or wrong way to set-up a tactic, but when I'm using a Mezzala I like to stretch play on that side so he can ghost into space between the opponents central defender and fullback, for example:

spacer.png

Looking at your set-up I'm wondering if you see a lot of players in that left half-space at the same time (the IWB, IF and MEZ)?

 

This is the kind of movement I look for, you see a lot of advice on here saying Mez link up well with IW as long as they are on different Duties but for me the Mez needs space to operate in and works better with the wide man staying wide.

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2 hours ago, frukox said:

I guess your roles for that side: MEZA WS WBA because it looks like you pinned CBS with a PA and right FB with IFA, right?

Pretty close :thup:

I mostly used an MEZA, WS and IWBs on that right side... a player's decision making seems to be much better in this year's match engine; in the GIF you can see the IWB momentarily check inside (twice) before opting to hold their position in support of the winger.  By design, the winger is my designated 'wide' player on the right, an WB on the left.  Lyon are one of the best sides in Ligue 1 so I tend to play on an 'attacking' mentality with the tempo dialled down.  I also play wide in attack because I aim to stretch my opponents defence and create gaps.

 

2 hours ago, Sarriball14 said:

I know what I want but getting there is proving difficult. I’ve always been the type to default back to a downloaded tactic but this time I want more satisfaction out the game from creating something of my own. 
 

I want all the channels to be occupied when going forward. With James at right back he’s the perfect option for occupying the right flank, ziyech to operate in the half space on the right hand side cutting inside from the right flank, either a IW or AP

Werner or Abraham occupying the central channel, neither players are that good at linking up play so they are very role specific in my opinion. 

I want Havertz to be a goal threat from central midfield attacking the left half space so thinking either a CMa or MEZa and then as for Pulisic I want him to occupy the left channel and then cut inside the box late (I guess like sterling does for city)

Chilwell as IWB to cover the space vacated by Havertz.

So yeah I kind of know what I want but making it work is another thing :L

It's great that you’re working on your own tactics, I hope you're enjoying the change of approach.  You have a really clear idea of the attacking patterns you want from your players, which is great, watch games closely now and do you see these patterns in play.  Are you finding the set-up works as you wanted: are all 5 vertical channels occupied in attack with the IFs 'staying wide' as per his player instruction (and despite the team instruction to attack narrowly)?  Or do the players tend to bunch up in those central/half space channels, like this…

1901241779_Screenshot2021-01-01.png.7a88917d191f9648305c7d7411da4b97.png

You might find you get given competing advice on forums, so don't take anything too literally... I'd suggest you experiment, make small tweaks and changes (one at a time, otherwise how do you know what alteration makes a difference); and test preconceived notions of how a particular role will perform - if you think the winger role is not going to give you what you want, i.e. he’s not going to cut in and he’ll cross the ball too much, try it and evidence to yourself that is the case before you rule anything out (you never know, you may be pleasantly surprised!)

 

1 hour ago, Hilly1979 said:

This is the kind of movement I look for, you see a lot of advice on here saying Mez link up well with IW as long as they are on different Duties but for me the Mez needs space to operate in and works better with the wide man staying wide.

I agree, although the great thing about FM is how varied tactics can be and combining the various player roles in different ways creates different patterns of play - throw  PPM's and TI's into the mix and the variation is huge.  Personally, I believe there's an advantage to be gained by stretching your opponents in your attack so I always look to employ at least one player on each flank to provide that width.  Like you, I think the Mezzala's positioning is great for taking advantage of this space.

Edited by Silver Sweeper
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27 minutes ago, Silver Sweeper said:

Pretty close :thup:

I mostly used an MEZA, WS and IWBs on that right side... a player's decision making seems to be much better in this year's match engine; in the GIF you can see the IWB momentarily check inside (twice) before opting to hold their position in support of the winger.  By design, the winger is my designated 'wide' player on the right, an WB on the left.  Lyon are one of the best sides in Ligue 1 so I tend to play on an 'attacking' mentality with the tempo dialled down.  I also play wide in attack because I aim to stretch my opponents defence and create gaps.

Keep it rocking! I still have FM20 and yearn for better intelligence in the final third and wide area defending, which seems FM21 has these features but the UI and bugs are holding me off from buying it. Don't know whether it's worth just for the ME or not.

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Quality article. Have downloaded FM21 a couple of nights ago and since reading this and implementing certain ideas i have rocketed up the league with Southport :thup: Main thing for me this year was trying to build something of my own and not relying on over powered tactics or set piece instructions, but I often don't know where to begin with tactics due to the amount of options and end up downloading a tactic. As people have mentioned you can implement the 5-5 system with various different  play styles dependent on your personnel, makes the game much more rewarding for me.

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